Trouble with 22lr dope

[DynamicAccuracy]

I have a kestrel 5700 sportsman with AB, Applied ballistics mobile and strelokpro mobile and i cant get any of them to line up anywhere close out to 450-500. I know my confirmed dope with my vudoo is as follows:
50y - 0mil
75y - .6mil
100y - 1.7
200y - 9.6

The problem is most of calculators say I should be around 7.2-7.5 for 200y but ive shot 3 different times and everytime 9.6 was dead on a waterline mark on the plate. Ive tried pulling BC and the typical truing methods with no luck. Any helps would be awesome.

 

[Dthomas3523]

BC will change very little with a .22

Muzzle velocity has a much larger impact. Try that if you haven’t already. Also sight height will change things quite a bit. You can mess with sight height and see what happens.

Last resort would be to upgrade to the elite software and use the DSF function. With a .22, DSF is the absolute best way to make a curve.

 

[myers129]

What is your mv? 9.6 is more drop than I have on any of my 22lr at 200. Have you done a tall target test with your optic? Have you confirmed the distance on your 200yd range?

 

[squishee]

My 5700 sportsman is spot on with my vudoo and ACTUAL velocity.(sk.cci.lapua)
Bc wont help much as pointed out earlier with 22 rf. Mv is what needs to be tuned.
Change the Mv on the kestrel till it matches you dope and you will get hits at all ranges. Well for that box of ammo anyway.
What ammo shoots this low in you vudoo? I shoot suppressed over a cheap chrono and my mv matches data on my kestrel perfect.
I have dopes for all the ammo i mentioned earlier and though they are different from each other none are as far off as your data.
Edit If you need 9.6 at 200 you have some slow ammo or a huge headwind

 

[45cal4life]

Agreed with the target test. Just because you're dialing 9.6 doesn't actually mean 9.6. Verify everything is correct in the calculators, try to be as precise as possible, input the offset (from the target test) then double check everything again with the calculators. Garage in = garbage out

 

[ScottDWallace]

Buying the custom curve got me a lot closer than using the box BC of .172. Most of us are closer to .131-.135 for BC and tweak MV from there. It is real close at 200, but falls apart at 400. DSF is critical for anything past 200 IMO. Good luck!

 

[Deleted member 10043]

With your little calculator change your zero until you reconcile your calculated dope with actual dope. Also, inputting MV off the box may not be correct even with subsequent truing attempts. Or you can just write down your actual dope and not worry about it.

 

[steve123]

I bet the scope doesn't track. Did you select a different G drag function?

 

[DynamicAccuracy]

I went out today and granted its 35 degrees warmer than it was the last time I shot past 100y but my dope today was:
50 - 0
100 - 1.7
150 - 3.8
200 - 7.0
150 - 13.2
400 - 20.4

This was at 76 degrees with a 2-4mph wind left to right

 

[Dthomas3523]

I’m at 7.2 to 200yds with 71deg and close to sea level.

This is dope that has been trued and used many times. I have a lot of trust in it.

Sk standard plus with a 30yd zero

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Okay

 

[Huskerhunter]

Funny, I've got a similar issue -- Using Center X with a CZ 457. I'm working in MOA but my difference is similar. I'm using a NF scope with hash marks so I'm pretty sure it's not a scope tracking problem. I did realize my target is actually 206 yds vs 200, but even with that adjustment it's off about 3.5 MOA using both Strelok Pro and Ballistic AE.

 

[DynamicAccuracy]

Funny, I've got a similar issue -- Using Center X with a CZ 457. I'm working in MOA but my difference is similar. I'm using a NF scope with hash marks so I'm pretty sure it's not a scope tracking problem. I did realize my target is actually 206 yds vs 200, but even with that adjustment it's off about 3.5 MOA using both Strelok Pro and Ballistic AE.

I tried kestrel with ab, ab mobile, strelok pro, and hornady 4dof. All were off and could get every yardage lined up. What I ended up doing was using ab mobile i have a profile for 0-100y and a 100-300y profile. Thats the only way I could get the dope across the board to line up perfectly. Doing this worked great yesterday..took 4th at a match and cleaned a stage out to 300y on prairie dog size targets

 

[Nik H]

I have a kestrel 5700 sportsman with AB, Applied ballistics mobile and strelokpro mobile and i cant get any of them to line up anywhere close out to 450-500. I know my confirmed dope with my vudoo is as follows:
50y - 0mil
75y - .6mil
100y - 1.7
200y - 9.6

The problem is most of calculators say I should be around 7.2-7.5 for 200y but ive shot 3 different times and everytime 9.6 was dead on a waterline mark on the plate. Ive tried pulling BC and the typical truing methods with no luck. Any helps would be awesome.

My predicted DOPE from ColdBore @ 200 yards is given as 8.6 Mils and my true DOPE is ~8.8 Mils. I can't ask for better correlation from a projected result.

Some questions that I have

1. Do you have true or measured DOPE at 300 yards?
2. What ammo are you using that produces your measured DOPE?
3. Have you tried other ammo to determine how stable your 200 yard elevation correction is?
4. What BC value are you using in the calculator?
5. Have you chronographed the ammo you are using to get actual MV?

I find that rimfire is a bit difficult to predict for a couple of reasons.

1. Stable BCs...bullets are lead so variability is there. There have been some historical papers written that publish BC values for rimfire. AB has also included some measured results in one of their books.
2. Lubricants on the bullet affect results IMHO.
3. Primer material consistency is not like centerfire so consistent MVs are sometimes difficult depending on the brand and type of ammo.
4. Barrel fouling makes a difference. Are you shooting and cleaning and shooting or is the barrel properly fouled throughout the process.

Once you get over trying to have a calculator predict this stuff and just go with your measured results, you will be better off....provided it is consistent

 

[Gleedus]

Did you check your velocity in the cold? I find center x is very temp sensitive. That could be the issue.
Custom drag models are generally better the G1 or G7 BUT they will not always work. The Applied Ballistics Lapua Center X CD in only good till 200 on the ammo I have and the Lapua app is good (I've only tested to 400) for the SK line as well. Note this is with my lots of ammo. This has also been the case with one of my fellow competitors.
If you are using bc based calculations typically you will have more accurate results with G7 over G1 if you are trying to true data out to 250+.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Unless you’re strapped for cash, the easy button is upgrade and use the dsf function.

You can basically just take 6 distances and tell the software what your curve is vs trying to manipulate it to match.

Unless on a budget, I can’t think of any reason why anyone shooting practical Rimfire isn’t using it.

 

[Gleedus]

I might be the odd duck here but i only use a phone app to get data trued up then export into a spread sheet and create a book with my tables. At a match I almost never use my apps. So i only run a cheap kestrel. I do wish the Applied Ballistics phone app had the dsf. It does have a truing of sorts built in but it doest work with subsonic only flight.

 

[Gleedus]

Unless you’re strapped for cash, the easy button is upgrade and use the dsf function.

You can basically just take 6 distances and tell the software what your curve is vs trying to manipulate it to match.

Unless on a budget, I can’t think of any reason why anyone shooting practical Rimfire isn’t using it.

A couple of the guys i shoot with have had issues with the 5700 kestrel shutting down in the cold so ive steered shy and stuck to paper.

 

[Dthomas3523]

A couple of the guys i shoot with have had issues with the 5700 kestrel shutting down in the cold so ive steered shy and stuck to paper.

Everything fails and if you take a couple examples as a basis of opinions, none of use would be using anything.

Besides, you can write down what the kestrel says beforehand. The point being, dsf is about the easiest and best way to true a .22.

 

[Gleedus]

Everything fails and if you take a couple examples as a basis of opinions, none of use would be using anything.

Besides, you can write down what the kestrel says beforehand. The point being, dsf is about the easiest and best way to true a .22.

I agree. I would gather your saying that you have had no issues with the cold?
The dsf is the only part I wish I had. I think the incentive to get one would be greater if we shot 22 ELR but as of now we typically only see one long range stage max 400 yd. Typically a average distance of 150-200 yds.

 

[LastShot300]

What is the farthest range ballistics predictions become troubled? Asking because I've read many times of shooters reaching 500y and even more apparently with ease

 

[Nik H]

In my case, ColdBore is pretty accurate to 300 yards. It begins o diverge from reality such that at 400 yards it is not accurate.

@Dthomas3523 brings up a point that I did not consider. The DSF function is something that I never thought to try. I can't see why it shouldn't work for a rimfire cartridge and I bet that 500 yards would be a range it would use to calibrate.

Has anyone given this a go?

 

[Dthomas3523]

In my case, ColdBore is pretty accurate to 300 yards. It begins o diverge from reality such that at 400 yards it is not accurate.

@Dthomas3523 brings up a point that I did not consider. The DSF function is something that I never thought to try. I can't see why it shouldn't work for a rimfire cartridge and I bet that 500 yards would be a range it would use to calibrate.

Has anyone given this a go?

I’ll mess with it to 500. Works perfectly to 350 or so that I’ve done.

 

[RTH1800]

I am at 6.9 at 200. 28" Win 52 with Eley Match.

 

[Snowgun]

I was struggling with this too out to 300 until I just used the DSF function on my Kestrel Elite, now its dead nuts at multiple ranges out to that. Will be poking out to 400 soon.

 

[TurboTrout]

If you have strelok pro, just do truing

click the bottom icon

Set the range
Set the elevation required
Calculate speed

further out you set it and the more sets the better.

 

[beetroot]

I had this issue with SK Match in one of my rifles, I basically just messed around with the velocity and BC until the data matched in Strelok to what I was actually getting on target. Ended up dropping the velocity way down and bumping the BC up quite a lot.

Have you chronyed the ammo and confirmed the actual velocity?

 

[Jevaughn0823]

Along with the recommendations above I would add to really check your zero, is your zero spot on? The reason I ask about the zero is your adjustment is low at shorter ranges but high at 200yrds. Just a thought.

 

[ed99]

Lots of good points to consider when checking your actual dope to the predicted drop from the Kestrel. I have started use the DSF function and find it really works well. One important point to to be absolutely exact with the range to your target within 1 yard/metre. Out at 200+, the bullet drops almost 1 inch every yard...or .1 mil every 2 yards.
Our home range has target boards at 50, 100, 200 etc, however they are all out by varying amounts, most notable is the 200m which is actually 204m. It caused me lots aggravation with my data until I figured out the true distance. I will use an old road sign as a reflective target for my rangefinder and hang it up at the range I'm shooting at to help with accurate readings.

 

[TIMMYTOY]

Try setting bc at .132 and mv at listed rate on box zero at 50 yards then shoot at 300 yrds adjust elevation turret to hit water line then adjust mv to match what turret is set.
If this does not work DSF-Drop Scale Function

 

[Shayne Ward]

Try setting bc at .132 and mv at listed rate on box zero at 50 yards then shoot at 300 yrds adjust elevation turret to hit water line then adjust mv to match what turret is set.
If this does not work DSF-Drop Scale Function

G1 or G7? Thanks

 

[TurboTrout]

G1 or G7? Thanks

Isn’t RA4 the 22

 

[Gleedus]

G1 or G7? Thanks

G1 of 0.132 is a standard starting point for long range 22 drop if using SK or lapua

 

[TIMMYTOY]

Shooting past 50 yards with SK would suggest bc G7 0.060 (applied Ballistic)

 

[Shayne Ward]

I have a friend that tells me to try .080 G7

 

[Shayne Ward]

Shooting past 50 yards with SK would suggest bc G7 0.060 (applied Ballistic)

Just so I understand this correctly would a .06 BC be more susceptible to wind than a .08 BC? Thanks

 

[Gleedus]

Here is a comparison with some of the data I have collected. To show the differences.
App to app even different environmentals can make a difference on what BC you true out at.

 

[Shayne Ward]

I know that playing around here at the house with my Kestrel I have input a G7 at .080 and it seems to be way more realistic to what I am seeing in real life as far as as wind calls.

 

[Shayne Ward]

I will definitely try the .060 too when I get back to the range.

 

[Gleedus]

I would not be using wind calls as a way to pick a BC.

 

[TIMMYTOY]

I’ve only seen one time where a ballistic solver was dead on for a 22lr at one temp.
once your bc is very close adjust velocity then do DSF if you have a kestrel
best you do three different ballistic test at temps 30f 60f 90f or whatever is normal for your area .

 

[Shayne Ward]

I would not be using wind calls as a way to pick a BC.

While I agree to this something has to be done with my setup to make it somewhat more accurate. I’ve seen others have a very accurate wind call from their Kestrel and mine is never even close the way it’s been. Even when the elevation calls are correct. Open to suggestions if you have some. I made a post about this in this forum too.

 

[ma smith]

While I agree to this something has to be done with my setup to make it somewhat more accurate. I’ve seen others have a very accurate wind call from their Kestrel and mine is never even close the way it’s been. Even when the elevation calls are correct. Open to suggestions if you have some. I made a post about this in this forum too.

At some stage, you need to calculate spin-drift. You should get numbers like .2 for 200yd and .3 for 300yd if memory is correct. That's right handed drift of ~.3 at 300yd with no wind. Is this something you have been playing around with?

Another issue with 22LR is that it is so sensitive to wind, that it really highlights that most wind in the field is not constant velocity over a set distance.

Over 300yds, you could have a 5mph wind at the target and a 2mph wind at the shooting position. In other words, the wind you kestrel measures doesn't really matter.

All that matters is the DOPE (data on previous engagements), and if you miss .2 you adjust to that and hit. The weighted average of the actual wind you could back out. Eg say you held 1.2 then you know this is the real wind.

But to get the "true" ballistic input for MPH you need to back out the spin ,since 1.2-.3=.9 and that would be your 3mph type number not 4or 5mph etc.

[I will add I could be totally mistaken, but this is what I believe is correct.]

 

[Bgriff008]

Unless you’re strapped for cash, the easy button is upgrade and use the dsf function.

You can basically just take 6 distances and tell the software what your curve is vs trying to manipulate it to match.

Unless on a budget, I can’t think of any reason why anyone shooting practical Rimfire isn’t using it.

I’m confused. How exactly is this done. 6 distances 50, 100, 150, 200, 250, 300. How do you then tell the software? How is this info inputted? I have the Kestrel Elite.

 

[Shayne Ward]

At some stage, you need to calculate spin-drift. You should get numbers like .2 for 200yd and .3 for 300yd if memory is correct. That's right handed drift of ~.3 at 300yd with no wind. Is this something you have been playing around with?

Another issue with 22LR is that it is so sensitive to wind, that it really highlights that most wind in the field is not constant velocity over a set distance.

Over 300yds, you could have a 5mph wind at the target and a 2mph wind at the shooting position. In other words, the wind you kestrel measures doesn't really matter.

All that matters is the DOPE (data on previous engagements), and if you miss .2 you adjust to that and hit. The weighted average of the actual wind you could back out. Eg say you held 1.2 then you know this is the real wind.

But to get the "true" ballistic input for MPH you need to back out the spin ,since 1.2-.3=.9 and that would be your 3mph type number not 4or 5mph etc.

[I will add I could be totally mistaken, but this is what I believe is correct.]

I agree and see all of this in my testing. Sometimes I will have a 1.2 mil wind call though when only .4-.6 is needed at let’s say 385 yards. On a dead calm day I know I need about .2 just for spindrift

 

[Gleedus]

While I agree to this something has to be done with my setup to make it somewhat more accurate. I’ve seen others have a very accurate wind call from their Kestrel and mine is never even close the way it’s been. Even when the elevation calls are correct. Open to suggestions if you have some. I made a post about this in this forum too.

No offense but that is on you and your wind calls. When trueing with a 22lr my experience for best results is.
#1 get actual muzzle velocity
#2 get actual drop at 200-300 yards (for PRS) just hitting a plate is not good enough. On paper so you can get precise measurements. Also atleast 15 shot group especially at longer ranges where group size is big.
#3 get perfect environmental data, wind total effect and direction. Wind total effect is what you had to hold for center not what wind speed you measured.
#4 make sure you account for spin drift etc.

If you have a incorrect velocity and bc you can make your drop line up but your wind will be off. But in your 385 yard example a 1.2 mil hold is in a very very low wind a 1 mpr change in wind is 0.4 mil and spin drift is 0.4 mil. So 1.2 mil actually is 0.8 mil or 2 mpr. It takes very little for your 2 mpr kestrel reading to be a 1 mpr actual due to topography add in that unless your shooting paper and calculating center of the group mathematically you can easily have a 0.2-0.3 mil error in what you think actual wind effect was.
Get actual velocity, true your drop. Wind has to much of us in the equation to consider using as a factor in truing.

 

[TIMMYTOY]

Look up DSF kestrel -google lots of info.
The way I set my kestrel up is crono muzzle set velocity set bc .060 zero at 50yds then shoot 100yds adjust velocity to get impact at 100 spot on then I go out to 150,200,250 and 300 at each yardage do DSF if needed.
Make sure you record current temp so when there’s a big temp change you can adjust muzzle velocity.
Figuring out wind use kestrel which only will give you estimate of the wind you may have down range you have to watch everything around you then make a judgement call then make that first shot hope you see it to then fine tune your wind call.
At the end practice is the only way to gain on wind calls and even then it’s tough.

 

[TIMMYTOY]

The best way to set up your kestrel for 22lr is custom drag curve.
Look up Applied Ballistic mobile lab find where they will be headed next,they go to PRS matches all over the country you will need about twenty rounds.
With the custom drag all I do is adjust velocity for the current temp.

 

[gc265]

Just stumbled across this thread...BIG thanks to all who provided input, this was a huge help reconciling calculated data vs range results!