Rifle Scopes True Return to Zero mounts

[EDDK9]

The Larue LT120 seems to be the only mount available with a 1.28" centerline height, 0 MOA and inclination in 34mm. I cant find anyone else who makes this combination. With that said, I've never had a problem with my Larue mounts. Some of you knuckle draggers need to read instructions and instal them properly. Ive never had their mounts scar up my rails. You are not suppose to use an impact or hammer to close the levers.

 

[Birddog6424]

I haven't seen a mount that was perfect. Once or twice my ADM mount was true after removing and replacing. But usually it needs a slight move of .1 or .2 at 100 yards.

Oddly enough, I have a $90 34mm PEPR mount that is amazing at holding zero or near zero. I didn't see that coming...

 

[Peter Laurvick]

Bad advice. Larues suck for Precison rifle rtz. Fine for a red dot.

GDI or Bobro is where it's at.

That's "your opinion", which is fine. "My opinion" which I can back with data, tells me it works just fine. The picture attached is cold bore first rounds of the day out of a Noveske 300BLK, the gun will normally run good groups anyways with this load but what makes this one especially good is the rifle has had a T-2 on it for 3 weeks of shooting several hundred rounds. I slapped on a NF NXS 3-5-15xx56 in Larue LT-745 QD mount on the rifle the night prior and laid down this 5 shot group at 100yds (again, cold bore, first rounds).

Will other mounts do this, I'm sure they will. But this right here sells me on Larue. Or at least, they work for me, for precision.

Just my $.02... take it or leave it

 

[Lowlight]

It's about surface area,

Larue has the least amount of contact vs any other QD mount. The knife edge is a bad design.

I have not seen a Larue perform as well as noted above, but the military has tested it, and in cases where this part of the test is included, Larues always come up short. ( A lot of times the military will leave this part of the test out in order to use a Larue, as an example a Spuhr mount was discounted in one test because the testers said the mount was too shiny)

But Larues loosen up over time, and under recoil, especially with a larger center fire vs the AR15 calibers. The knife edge is making minimal contact, and if you over tighten them, they will damage the rails over time. Just look from behind at rail level, lost of space there.

A broken clocks is right twice a day, this is usually the case with the Larue, aside from dishonest testing that often occurs. These success stories are almost always on a AR15 platform, which some call a clue.

 

[EDDK9]

Lowlight-

Not that I don't believe you, but do you have the data to back that up or just speaking from your own bad experience? I hear a lot of "this mount sucks" theories with no facts to back it up. Almost like Im watching CNN.

 

[Lowlight]

I have a lot of facts, much of it comes from people who participate in these tests.

This is not hard to figure out, I talk to companies all the time, and consult with guys doing this stuff on a weekly basis. I also keep abreat of the results when they finish. Like talking with Hakan about the Spuhr, or Marco from GDI who I talk to all the time. They constantly submit products for military contracts and testing. Anytime I see written results, I am asked not to share them, not a dodge but a fact. Guys don't want to get blacked balled because I released insider info.

Picatinny Arsenal has tested these at length, in one such case the Larue never made past round one. When they move on to the next level, it's usualy because they failed to actually test the return to zero portion. Also several contracts where written specifically to exlude features that are found in the Larue mounts, which is why they tend to submit the non-QD vertical rifle version.

Because of my experience with Larue we have had monster fights with Mark, he spent a full day on here arguing with himself over these shortcomings.

Also first hand experience was seen this summer with the Vertical Mount issue, Larue was front and center in there.

Somewhere here I have a couple of LT mounts, if I can dig them out I will post images and show you in living color the issues.

 

[EDDK9]

Thanks for the reply. I guess I can say I believe you, but I still see no facts once again. Sounds like personal issues too. Id love to see the images about these "issues" as well. Thank you!

Furthermore, I understand you're a long time member with a significant post count. (I respect that). I can believe there is a lot of stuff passed around the internet and stuff you might of been more privy to. The problem lies when someone just throws blanket statement, dogma, opinions, and responds with "feelings", instead of credible facts with no bias involved. I'd say the burden of proof is on me to find these sources, but I am not the one making said allegations.

Respectfully,

-K9

 

[Lowlight]

I own the place, I started it... I am not just a member.

I am not being dodgey, I will just say I have 4 open NDAs going on right now, it's not uncommon for me to be covered by these.

If I can find my mounts I will post it. I am not gonna compromise my position by divulging info out of school. I have had enough battles with Mark and I have no interest revisiting those, even though they are epic and extremely enjoyable to watch.

 

[EDDK9]

Ok, sounds good. Thanks again for the reply.

 

[Lowlight]

Here is a bit of insight on one of the awarded contracts

That solicitation was one of the more jacked up ones they wrote. I hope some people bother to read it. I mean who has an repeatability test that only requires taking the optic off/on once? They also spec’d the levers on the left side (no clue why), then changed the spec after award. Typically that would require a new solicitation, guess SYSCOM is above following their own rules

The Corps selection of “lowest price technically acceptable” was the result of 2 solicitation for the same product. Not sure a single removal and replacement without firing any rounds can be classified as any sort of repeatability testing by even airsoft standards. There were also other “good American companies” involved. SYSCOM surely has its own interpretation of the FAR regulations. And technically the mount they awarded the contract on was not even the one they tested.

public comments from an insider view, this is pretty much the complaint ... there is a reason they deviated from protocol

 

[EDDK9]

I'm going to assume these comments are in regards to the Larue mounts?

 

[SRPowah]

It is becoming well known that vertically split designs seem to have a high failure rate in return to zero test when dialing. I have owned 3 Larue mounts, and I loved them... but I didn't dial much and barely shot under 1 moa with my AR out to 300 yards. Just because my SWFA liked the mount doesn't mean the future owner will be able to dial without issue.

For a hold over optic, go for it. For anyone that touches the turrets, it might work or it might let you down when it matters. Just because you have success (I did) doesn't mean everyone will.

 

[Sixfivesavage]

I'll admit I didn't read this whole thing but I did just stumble upon something surprising last weekend. I had pulled the barreled action from my manners mini chassis, yanked the barrel from the action and removed my scope from the action as well. The scope sits in ARC rings. Anyway, I put it all back together, torqued the barrel, the barreled action in the stock and the mounted optic back in the rifle. Went to the range and low and behold, the thing required no scope adjustments. I know it was one time and I know it's not QD and there's a whole lot being taken apart and out back together but it did suprise me a lot. I'd imagine if I needed to swap stuff, these would warrant more testing but I think they might perform well.

 

[Griz44Mag]

I have a Vortex Viper PST sitting in a Burris P.E.P.R. mount that for a year or so shared duty on two rifles. a 6.5 semi and a R700 hunter. It is the PEPR that uses the 1/2" hex nuts, and I am very diligent in making sure it is pushed forward and is torqued exactly at 50 every time I move it. Exactly 83 clicks elevation and 3 clicks windage puts it exactly back on zero when moving back and forth, which I have done dozens and dozens of times. It's not an expensive mount, but works great for me. I have shot both rifles out to 1K, and can usually run the ladder on 24" plates without a miss. (unless I suck at reading the wind...) I am still learning about that! Before getting the WARNE for the semi which does not have a canted rail, I had swapped it back and forth while at the range on occasion, with good results. And sorry, no I don't have any pics or videos.

p.s. - Keep up the good work LowLight, I love the videos and have found every scrap of info gleaned from you to be a treasure in my education!

 

[Peter Laurvick]

I can definitely see the potencial flaws in Larues design. But from my personal experience I just haven't had all these problems. Best best experiences is with the before-mentioned Nightforce NXS 3.5-15x56mm in Larue LT-745 20MOA QD mount. The scope was always mounted in that mount and never had problems with return to zero. Other than the Larue mount on my T-2 (which works but it's a red dot so how precise can you get for testing..) I've also had a Trijicon Accupower 1-4x in Larue LT-104 which wasn't on a gun that was all that precise of a gun in the first place but when I cleaned it I took it off and put it back on and didn't have to re-zero.

As as far as Precision go, it wouldn't be my go-to mount. But as far as a combat mount where it holds good, descent return to zero if taken off to clean, and doesn't require tools to remove in case the optic breaks hallways through a mission.

 

[EDDK9]

I own the place, I started it... I am not just a member.

I am not being dodgey, I will just say I have 4 open NDAs going on right now, it's not uncommon for me to be covered by these.

If I can find my mounts I will post it. I am not gonna compromise my position by divulging info out of school. I have had enough battles with Mark and I have no interest revisiting those, even though they are epic and extremely enjoyable to watch.

Lowlight-

After doing some digging and checking out your RRS mounts in another thread, I can say I am a bit intrigued. As much so, you have me lookiong to buy one. It is a pretty sexy looking mount. Im still unsure if the 1.26 centerline 0 MOA will work on my setup, but it will be pretty damn close with the 56mm Aadland caps.

 

[hk dave]

As as far as Precision go, it wouldn't be my go-to mount. But as far as a combat mount where it holds good, descent return to zero if taken off to clean, and doesn't require tools to remove in case the optic breaks hallways through a mission.

Isn't acceptable combat zero like 4-5 Moa? I think even utg can do that.

What were here trying to say is that there is current tech that can bring you to within a camel hairs width in rtz.

 

[Peter Laurvick]

Isn't acceptable combat zero like 4-5 Moa? I think even utg can do that.

What were here trying to say is that there is current tech that can bring you to within a camel hairs width in rtz.

3 MOA rifle, 7 MOA shooter rifle combo.

Ive always got repeatable results so close for even 1/4" MOA to make an adjustment. That's good enough for me

 

[Lowlight]

The USMC Spec was 1 MOA ... for both the M110 and M107

In the spec they say, it cannot mar or damage a rail, which is a sympton of the knive edge that they over looked... as well as the left side vs right side levers. As noted the award was changed after the fact to change the lever side to fit.



If they don't remove and replace to test degradation of performance as many noted, what is the point ?

The military test too is at 300 yards, 5 shots on vs off etc. so if you want to test your own stuff use 300 yards as a baseline like they do, however I would do it more than once. Part of the complaint is the necessity to tighten them down with the wrench over time.

 

[Mute]

I've used most of the discussed products in this thread. For QD, I'd stick with Bobro or GDI, though I'd love to take a look at the new ones from Spuhr as well. Regarding the Larue, I think they're fine for red dots, but I found them wanting for a precision setup. I found over time that Larues tend to wear on the rail and cause a shift. Here's a couple of pictures just for comparisons sakes between ADM (not my top choice either, especially for precision setup) and Larue. You can see the method by which the Larue attaches that it causes stress on the rails and even the mount itself which can lead to issues over time. This is just based on my own experience with the various products.




The ADM Mount


The Larue Mount

 

[EDDK9]

I can understand that and see how it could potentially be a problem. Thanks for the visual.

 

[CBDR]

I was in your situation until recently. Put it on at sunrise and take it off at sunset thermal swap out. Went with a quick disconnect GDI 34mm, built like a tank and returned to zero with no problems. It made it easier packed out and only carrying one rifle. I found my problem was the thermal was not as good returning to zero. Do not rule this out. All and all it gave me an excuse to purchase a strictly dedicated night rifle. The GDI stayed in place and I see no reason to take her off. Now I carry two rifles for my over night swamp camping. Ten feet of elevation between me and the reptiles.

 

[Blackrifle1]

I’m certainly NO expert, but I purchased a 1 piece 30mm mount from Badger Ordnance for my 6.5 Grendel rifle and it moved a few times back and forth. YES, it was tightened to their specs. Sent it back to them and they were good to deal with, but the new one did the same thing. (There was no lateral movement) I ended up selling the entire package so I have no data, but it was strange that it could move like 1/8” back and forth......they said it was normal.

 

[Jbenevides89]

Ill be the one to rise this thread from the grave again.

With the new thermion series out I am looking for a good 30mm QD so I can use the thermal on more than one gun and for more than just shooting. I am sure others are searching too. Is it safe to say that the general consensus is Bobro is about as good as one will get with ADM being a close second? While my shooting wont be at paper at 1k yds, I will be trying to drop pigs and yotes at 300+ from a AR10 platform.

 

[Darqusoull13]

Yes, Bobro is king.