Trued R700 action VS. custom action?

[186thFCo]

I have a new build that I want to start and I want to know if there is any real performance advantages if I get a new custom action like a Deviant or the like, compared to if I use the R700 action that I have and just have a gunsmith true it up. Basically what I'm trying to do is to justify the cost of a new action. I could save a good chunk of change if I use the action i already have (obviously).

The rifle I am looking to build will be a 28 Nosler use for long range hunting and shooting steel.

 

[...]

accuracy wise.....not really.....a trued action is going to shoot just as well as a custom action.

you do get some bells and whistles with custom actions, like integral recoil lugs, integral scope rails, ect.....

if you have an action laying around, it should be pretty easy for a smith to true it up........otherwise its probably more cost effective to just get a custom action.

 

[Sendit6.5]

Use the action you have and save some money. I love custom actions but for 99.9% of shooters, a trued action (700, Tikka, etc) will shoot just as well. Unless you're dying to have a custom action rifle and the money laying around to afford it, use the savings you'll get from trying your action and put it towards a better barrel or a better trigger or a better scope or a better stock than you would otherwise be able to afford.


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[cottonant]

I want to know if there is any real performance advantages if I get a new custom action like a Deviant or the like, compared to if I use the R700 action that I have and just have a gunsmith true it up.

With two trued 700's and two Deviants

the main custom action advantages for me are 1. pressure and velocity. The custom actions allow for higher velocities. 2. being able to easily swap barrels as the custom actions have an integrated recoil lug and with a barrel vice it's as easy and screwing them off and on then torquing to 55 ft lbs.

the main 700 action advantage is being able to run better when dirty as my Deviants are tight.

 

[Ledzep]

Please explain why custom actions allow you to run higher pressures and velocities.

To the OP, don't even true the 700. Most of them (esp. if you're buying a brand new rifle for the action) don't need it. Never hurts to have it checked to see if it's way out of line, mostly just relative lug height in the receiver. Have the bolt handle timed and tigged and open up the scope base holes to 8-40 and call it good. A ground aftermarket recoil lug doesn't hurt either.

If you have a good match barrel installed you won't be able to shoot the difference (if any exists) between trued and untrued actions, barring any gross defects.

 

[Rob01]

accuracy wise.....not really.....a trued action is going to shoot just as well as a custom action.

you do get some bells and whistles with custom actions, like integral recoil lugs, integral scope rails, ect.....

if you have an action laying around, it should be pretty easy for a smith to true it up........otherwise its probably more cost effective to just get a custom action.

That pretty much sums it up. My trued 700s are very accurate as are my custom actions. It's about how the smith puts it together.

You get nice features on customs as I have 4 barrels for my Surgeon action I can swap at home but you can actually do that with a 700 if you have the smith pin the recoil lug. Side bolt release and one piece bolts and replaceable bolt heads are other nice custom features. Just comes down to what you want and how much you want to spend.

 

[cottonant]

Please explain why custom actions allow you to run higher pressures and velocities.

Not sure but this has been my experience with two separate gun builders.

Three of us had 7mm Rem Mags built with 26” Krieger Rem Varmints by the same Builder (A). Two of us had him true our existing 700’s and the other bought a Stiller. All 3 guns bug hole but the Stiller runs 100 + fps more before pressure.

Three of us had 6.5x47’s built by the same Builder (B). Two of them used their existing 700’s and I used a Deviant. All 3 guns bug hole but I get 50 + fps more than they do before pressure.

If reputable gun builders dispute the actions as being the reason for different pressure points then I can only assume both of my Builder’s didn’t true the actions correctly. Am interested in other opinions regarding this issue as my experience may very well be unique.

 

[spife7980]

Not sure but this has been my experience with two separate gun builders.

Three of us had 7mm Rem Mags built with 26” Krieger Rem Varmints by the same Builder (A). Two of us had him true our existing 700’s and the other bought a Stiller. All 3 guns bug hole but the Stiller runs 100 + fps more before pressure.

Three of us had 6.5x47’s built by the same Builder (B). Two of them used their existing 700’s and I used a Deviant. All 3 guns bug hole but I get 50 + fps more than they do before pressure.

If reputable gun builders dispute the actions as being the reason for different pressure points then I can only assume both of my Builder’s didn’t true the actions correctly. Am interested in other opinions regarding this issue as my experience may very well be unique.

But the speed is all in the barrel.
The only thing in an action that could influence velocities is if you reload and tailor a load to each particular rifle up to where you encounter pressure signs for each action. But that would be dependent on the bolt face being too far out of square or a sloppy firing pin fitment etc to handicap a rem 700 action and create premature pressure signs requiring lowering the velocities/pressures. If they are all tight and square it would have zero influence from custom action to a trued.
Factory ammo wouldnt know the difference between one action or the other.

 

[Pusher591]

I own both built by two of the best smiths. My trued 700 is also ionbonded with a polished PTG bolt. It's as acurate as any custom but it's not as slick as a custom. If you have the extra money go custom, you'll always want one anyway so just do it.

 

[padom]

Not sure but this has been my experience with two separate gun builders.

Three of us had 7mm Rem Mags built with 26” Krieger Rem Varmints by the same Builder (A). Two of us had him true our existing 700’s and the other bought a Stiller. All 3 guns bug hole but the Stiller runs 100 + fps more before pressure.

Three of us had 6.5x47’s built by the same Builder (B). Two of them used their existing 700’s and I used a Deviant. All 3 guns bug hole but I get 50 + fps more than they do before pressure.

If reputable gun builders dispute the actions as being the reason for different pressure points then I can only assume both of my Builder’s didn’t true the actions correctly. Am interested in other opinions regarding this issue as my experience may very well be unique.

Thats the barrel, has nothing to do with the action....

 

[padom]

Being someone that has many customs and had a Rem700 5R SS action redone here's what I can say. If you are truly just going to have your smith true it and screw on a custom barrel then it will be cheaper to use your existing 700 action and you will get excellent accuracy. Now, if you decide to get a PTG bolt that removes the factory Remington bolt to receiver slop, have it all coated (cerakote, DLC, etc) a Seekins or Murphy 20moa base, side bolt release and maybe a new recoil lug then your going to spend the same amount as a custom action. Believe me, I did it. It will be one damn fine action when its all done but its much faster to just buy a custom for the same money.... My $0.02

 

[186thFCo]

I think I'm going to use my 700 action, I'll get it trued, a bigger recoil lug, a bigger bolt handle, 20 moa base, cerakote it, slap on a new barrel and call it a day. This is mainly going to be a hunting rifle anyway so it doesn't have to get too fancy.

 

[IndianaRem5r]

If you have ever cycled a Defiance Deviant or a Bighorn TL3 after running Rem 700's (I have a 5R MilSpec and an SPS), it will ruin you. The Defiance and Bighorn are just precision pieces and works of science. The feel is unbelievable. You will never get that feel in a Rem 700. Yes, they may not create better accuracy, but. Kinda like dating a fitness model and a fat girl. Both get the job done...

 

[moosemeat]

If you have a remington action use it. Most of the accuracy is in a good barrel and chamber. That said you will have very little resale on a trued 700. A custom will hold value better. That doesnt matter to me. Might or might not to you.
I have a 700 action i want to rebarrel and restock. I will send it to LRI or Moon at some point for the full build. Pinned lug, side bolt release, 8-40 base threads, hell i might have it clip slotted and put a badger on it. I expect it to be deviant money. But it will be my F T/R rifle and will be passed on to one of my boys.

 

[padom]

At $1249.95 for a Bighorn TL3 I dont see any point putting that kind of money into a 700. It wont feel the same when its all done and like mentioned above, you will never get back from that 700 what you put into it. Just true it up and throw a barrel on it or sell it and get a TL3.

 

[186thFCo]

Kinda like dating a fitness model and a fat girl. Both get the job done...

I damn near pissed myself when I read this

 

[Triple D]

Kinda like dating a fitness model and a fat girl. Both get the job done...

But you only brag about one of them...

 

[Sendit6.5]

If you have ever cycled a Defiance Deviant or a Bighorn TL3 after running Rem 700's (I have a 5R MilSpec and an SPS), it will ruin you. The Defiance and Bighorn are just precision pieces and works of science. The feel is unbelievable. You will never get that feel in a Rem 700. Yes, they may not create better accuracy, but. Kinda like dating a fitness model and a fat girl. Both get the job done...

Best analogy I've read in a long time! Almost spit coffee when I read it the first time. That's some hilarious shite!


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[Bradu]

My 700's that have been trued are very smooth and don't give up much to a Defiance. I will say a Defiance that has been melonited is pretty amazing but I'm sure the 700's would be similar after getting trued. Some shops prices are high enough that yes a custom action is a no brainer but other shops are very reasonable and I wouldn't have a problem going that route.

 

[19Scout77]

If your properly built 700s are not as smooth as your customs...THEN YOU AIN'T SHOOTING THEM ENOUGH!!! Or at least working the bolt.

 

[LRI]

Remember, most aftermarket actions are M700 clones. Features can be added just like adding a new pair of heads or intake on a Chevy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNy7SSYHWsc
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[spife7980]

Remember, most aftermarket actions are M700 clones. Features can be added just like adding a new pair of heads or intake on a Chevy.

Ok, I'll bite. What's going on here?

 

[Terry Cross]

Something worth mentioning is what is the difference 5, 10, 15 years after the rifle is built if it is ACTUALLY BEING USED?

I have 3 or 400 rifles built on remachined R700s. Some of those rifles are heavy use rifles that have come in for their 4 or 5th barrels since being built as far back as late 1980's and early 90's. 4 re-barrels is a lot of shooting when talking about .308s.

I have a good many more rifles built on custom actions starting with the Pre-591 Surgeons around 2004 and more recently migrating to Defiance that have a ton of rounds on them. All of the rifles in question have undoubtedly had many more cycles on the actions while dry firing above and beyond the cycles made while sending rounds.

What I see with all of the remachined R700s is that the receiver raceways and primary extraction cams are extremely worn. Remington receivers have the raceways broach cut (which is rough as hell) and then heat treated. Result is your bolt body and lugs are running across several high points in the raceways. Because the limited contact areas are handling all of the traffic and friction, those contact areas wear down. This wear seems to be more rapid when the rifles are work or match rifles being used hard in dirty and/or gritty environments. I have seen some actions get so bad that the rear of the bolt dropping when the striker drops is dramatic.

Some actions even seem to be more prone to binding during quick cycling. Bolts being TOO loose in the receiver can induce a bind just as quick as bolt handles that are too long. The forward push of the cycle can easily create an off axis bind that can be a PITA with either of those two conditions exist if you are not careful.

Most of the custom receivers have wired raceways. Pretty much however they feel after the first 200 cycles will be how they feel 50K cycles later. Ditto for the primary cam. Those surfaces are correct from the get go and with the addition of heat treat are there for the long run.

Remington receivers can be reamed and the bolt body's sleeved which would help somewhat with the wear issue but that is something never recommended with a hard use work or field rifle due to possibly getting too tight clearances.

R700 actions that are built into duty rifles ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY should have a minimum PM frequency of 12 months between inspections to check and/or replace the rear trigger pin. These can bend and even shear completely due to the factory bolt stop transferring all rear bolt energy directly to the pin. This same recommended PM applies to all box stock factory R700s in duty circulation in my opinion. If the rifles are being run regularly and the bolts cycled like they should be (fast and smooth), no 700s are immune from this potential issue.

Yes, the receivers can have side bolt stops installed to bypass and replace the factory stop but then you are just one more step and a lot of money closer to a custom action instead.

Note that in my opinion, none of the above is anything to worry about if you are a casual shooter that is realistically not going to be running your rifle that long or that hard.


T.
./

 

[steve123]

Ok, I'll bite. What's going on here?

It looks like the action is being machined for stripper clips - a clip slot.

 

[steve123]

I like custom actions better for a lot of reasons, too me they have always been worth the extra money, more so if one was considering having all the bells and whistles done to M700.

BR shooters use customs so there must be a slight accuracy advantage to customs actions. Maybe we can't shoot the difference, maybe we don't need the difference.

 

[MarkLeupold]

It looks like the action is being machined for stripper clips - a clip slot.

Yes, it's called a clip slot, but it's for the scope base if I've been following LRI's work correctly. It basically takes the concept of a recoil lug integral to the scope base and puts that concept on crack. The scope base and action basically become one piece after this work.

 

[5RWill]

There are advantages to a custom in the likes of all the upgrades you'd want with a 700 are there and that they don't need to be trued. But they are a preference, not a necessity. Most customs in a 700 footprint that are essentially a 700 built ground up properly, usually come out about equal with taking a 700 and having it trued, side bolt release, extractor upgrade, fluting, pinned recoil lug, bushed firing pin, etc. By the time those upgrades are done you've essentially spent what a Stiller Tac 30 would run you and are nearing the 1200$ range. There are exceptions with the PTG 700s and such but idk how their QC is.

If spending the extra money on a custom is going to keep you from shooting as often i don't recommend it. If the intended purpose of the rifle build is PRS shooting one isn't going to outshoot the other and certainly wont be the limiting factor in a hit or miss.

 

[JS624]

Custom actions hold their value much better if you ever have to sell

 

[steve123]

Yes, it's called a clip slot, but it's for the scope base if I've been following LRI's work correctly. It basically takes the concept of a recoil lug integral to the scope base and puts that concept on crack. The scope base and action basically become one piece after this work.

Ah okay, GTK.

 

[LRI]

Ok, I'll bite. What's going on here?

https://www.longriflesinc.com/colle...s-clip-slotting-m700-for-m40-style-optic-base

 

[Kadams1563]

If your building a gun from ground up I would go custom unless you have never cycled a custom action.

I hated the resistance from the factory actions I felt when running the bolt. Having to completely remove your head from the rifle and use two hands to run the bolt drove me crazy.

With my defiance I can stay in the same position and run the bolt. The rifle moves very little and is very smooth.


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[LRI]

If your building a gun from ground up I would go custom unless you have never cycled a custom action.

I hated the resistance from the factory actions I felt when running the bolt. Having to completely remove your head from the rifle and use two hands to run the bolt drove me crazy.

With my defiance I can stay in the same position and run the bolt. The rifle moves very little and is very smooth.


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A properly tuned and setup Rem or M70 will do this as well. We've done thousands of them. . .

C.

 

[jsthntn247]

The problem with giving a make over to a Remington is the Surgeon doing the work. There are allot of Edward Scissor Hand smiths around that can really fuck one up.

 

[186thFCo]

That true but I would send my action out to LRI, John Beanland or someone like that, I've heard nothing but good things about them and would trust there work.

 

[...]

If your building a gun from ground up I would go custom unless you have never cycled a custom action.

I hated the resistance from the factory actions I felt when running the bolt. Having to completely remove your head from the rifle and use two hands to run the bolt drove me crazy.

With my defiance I can stay in the same position and run the bolt. The rifle moves very little and is very smooth.


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......what the actual fuck are you talking about?.....

never once have i needed 2 hands to run the bolt on a factory 700....and i dont have any problem staying in position either.......

 

[skulldragr17]

If you are looking at getting your action trued by a gunsmith, I'd first ask them what their truing entails. Many gunsmiths don't true the action fully or properly, and unfortunately the only way to check if it has been trued properly is to true it again. There is a lot more to a full blueprint job than just squaring the action and bolt faces. We've done work on countless Rem 700 actions before that have already been "trued" but they were far from it.

If it's in your budget though...you won't regret going with an aftermarket action like a Defiance, Bighorn, Surgeon, etc...

 

[5RWill]

The problem with giving a make over to a Remington is the Surgeon doing the work. There are allot of Edward Scissor Hand smiths around that can really fuck one up.

There are also lots of reputable smiths that are very well known and do great work. Chad Dixon, John Beanland, George Gardner, Jered Joplin, Terry Cross, Robert Gradous, Mark Gordan, etc. It wouldn't take much research to find a reputable smith.

 

[surgeon260]

Something worth mentioning is what is the difference 5, 10, 15 years after the rifle is built if it is ACTUALLY BEING USED?

I have 3 or 400 rifles built on remachined R700s. Some of those rifles are heavy use rifles that have come in for their 4 or 5th barrels since being built as far back as late 1980's and early 90's. 4 re-barrels is a lot of shooting when talking about .308s.

I have a good many more rifles built on custom actions starting with the Pre-591 Surgeons around 2004 and more recently migrating to Defiance that have a ton of rounds on them. All of the rifles in question have undoubtedly had many more cycles on the actions while dry firing above and beyond the cycles made while sending rounds.

What I see with all of the remachined R700s is that the receiver raceways and primary extraction cams are extremely worn. Remington receivers have the raceways broach cut (which is rough as hell) and then heat treated. Result is your bolt body and lugs are running across several high points in the raceways. Because the limited contact areas are handling all of the traffic and friction, those contact areas wear down. This wear seems to be more rapid when the rifles are work or match rifles being used hard in dirty and/or gritty environments. I have seen some actions get so bad that the rear of the bolt dropping when the striker drops is dramatic.

Some actions even seem to be more prone to binding during quick cycling. Bolts being TOO loose in the receiver can induce a bind just as quick as bolt handles that are too long. The forward push of the cycle can easily create an off axis bind that can be a PITA with either of those two conditions exist if you are not careful.

Most of the custom receivers have wired raceways. Pretty much however they feel after the first 200 cycles will be how they feel 50K cycles later. Ditto for the primary cam. Those surfaces are correct from the get go and with the addition of heat treat are there for the long run.

Remington receivers can be reamed and the bolt body's sleeved which would help somewhat with the wear issue but that is something never recommended with a hard use work or field rifle due to possibly getting too tight clearances.

R700 actions that are built into duty rifles ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY should have a minimum PM frequency of 12 months between inspections to check and/or replace the rear trigger pin. These can bend and even shear completely due to the factory bolt stop transferring all rear bolt energy directly to the pin. This same recommended PM applies to all box stock factory R700s in duty circulation in my opinion. If the rifles are being run regularly and the bolts cycled like they should be (fast and smooth), no 700s are immune from this potential issue.

Yes, the receivers can have side bolt stops installed to bypass and replace the factory stop but then you are just one more step and a lot of money closer to a custom action instead.

Note that in my opinion, none of the above is anything to worry about if you are a casual shooter that is realistically not going to be running your rifle that long or that hard.


T.
./

I love when Terry chimes in. I always learn something.

 

[Ledzep]

If you are looking at getting your action trued by a gunsmith, I'd first ask them what their truing entails. Many gunsmiths don't true the action fully or properly, and unfortunately the only way to check if it has been trued properly is to true it again. There is a lot more to a full blueprint job than just squaring the action and bolt faces. We've done work on countless Rem 700 actions before that have already been "trued" but they were far from it.

If it's in your budget though...you won't regret going with an aftermarket action like a Defiance, Bighorn, Surgeon, etc...

Here's my question to you, and it's an honest one.

If you true an action, remove it from your fixture, then place it back into your fixture with the previous "settings" erased (bushings/rod removed, jaws/screws/whatever backed off) and replace the bushings/rod (I'm assuming that's how you're doing it) dial it back in, what does it look like?

It seems like everyone that rebarrels a previously "trued" action says that "There was still some runout/error/etc."

 

[skulldragr17]

If we were to true an action and then redial it back in, there would likely be a very small amount of runout perceived. Just like a barrel, there is some flex to an action. As long as it's dialed in properly and carefully, it will remain well within specs. For many on of the actions that we've had to re-true, they've taken just as much work as a factory action. If we have to take that much material off of an already trued action, it definitely wasn't done properly. Again, there is only so much you can measure to indicate to what degree something has been done without having to redo the entire thing. For the most part, it's easy to tell a full blueprint to a factory / half blueprint. I hope that makes sense.

 

[Petrov]

So basically long story short to do it right you might as well buy a custom action.

 

[Petrov]

By the way at just iver 5000 rounds my stock remington bolt knob has had enough, the camming surface was worn/smeared off.
Now I don't beat on my bolt on purpose like it was my knob as a teenager when I was reading a lot of literature meant to be read with one hand but still, I was expecting the damn thing to last.

 

[LRI]

If you are looking at getting your action trued by a gunsmith, I'd first ask them what their truing entails. Many gunsmiths don't true the action fully or properly, and unfortunately the only way to check if it has been trued properly is to true it again. There is a lot more to a full blueprint job than just squaring the action and bolt faces. We've done work on countless Rem 700 actions before that have already been "trued" but they were far from it.

If it's in your budget though...you won't regret going with an aftermarket action like a Defiance, Bighorn, Surgeon, etc...

"and unfortunately the only way to check if it has been trued properly is to true it again"

I do not agree with that statement in any capacity. It is simply not true. It can be done. All it takes is the proper metrology. I speculate that very, very, very few have the resources or experience to do so along with it being cost prohibitive as it makes not one cent in a cottage industry shop/business environment.

Instead, it's far easier to chuck up an action in a "cats head" or collar, indicate over a mandrel supported by bushings, and proclaim that the previous work is flawed. Aerospace, medical, defense, atomic, etc...they all have well established quality control protocols. If they can do it, this industry can too.

Incomplete work was mentioned so on that note:

LRI has run a whole lot of M700's in the last 4 years. A LOT. One item that is almost always overlooked is Primary Extraction. Its a rare, rare day for us to have an M700, that's been worked on previously, come through here where the handle has been timed back up to run properly. ANY work to bolt lugs/receiver lugs has a negative cascading affect on PE. It retards the timing and makes the handle engage the cam later in rotation. If the action has an RR prefix on the serial number you can GUARANTEE it to be AFU right out of the box. Remington changed foundries a few years back and whoever made the tool for investment casting screwed it up badly. Cam surfaces are not tangent to the action feature and its in the wrong position. There is NO PE on this series of action. We fix every single one of them that comes through here. I've gone so far as to design our own replacement that has the issue solved permanently.


About as transparent as it gets:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNy7SSYHWsc&t=33s

https://www.longriflesinc.com/collec...rvice-for-m700

https://www.longriflesinc.com/collec...ver-accurizing

 

[skulldragr17]

I like the video. I'm assuming you guys still true the receiver threads and lug seats but it just wasn't in the video?

 

[LRI]

:30 to around :05 shows the work.

As the store description states, one tool: reduces tolerance stacking to basically nothing. The thread mill ensures a very accurate pitch void of any bell mouth or taper as the tool is loaded the same amount on the bottom of the hole as it is the top. Hobb style thread mills work much faster, but controlling pitch taper can be more problematic.

:56 second mark details the scope base holes. Same fixture, same setup, same work holding. Just rotated 90* in the trunion table. Holes are bored and thread milled same as the receiver ring. Again, consolidated tool package and solving the challenges with programming rather than complicated multiple setups. End result being better avoidance of positional errors.

 

[Matt_3479]

I own 1 Blueprinted 700 and about 10 factory 700's and 2 custom actions!

When i build my first rifle people kept saying because your investing all this time and money into a build. Just go custom! Would you be more satisfied when you see the rifle say Remington or stiller/defiance/atlas/etc. And on top of that if you ever run into a finacial problem, turn around value of a custom action built rifle is way higher!!

Go custom yly you won't regret it

 

[346ci]

If you are looking for a nice factory action, check out a Tikka.

If the only two options are a 700 vs. a custom, no way I'd put money into a 700, go with the custom.

 

[kthomas]

If you have ever cycled a Defiance Deviant or a Bighorn TL3 after running Rem 700's (I have a 5R MilSpec and an SPS), it will ruin you. The Defiance and Bighorn are just precision pieces and works of science. The feel is unbelievable. You will never get that feel in a Rem 700. Yes, they may not create better accuracy, but. Kinda like dating a fitness model and a fat girl. Both get the job done...

I wouldn't say that a rem700 action will never feel as good as a defiance. My TacOps Remington 700 action cycles smoother than the Defiance action on a rifle built by another very popular builder. In fact, it feels a lot better than many of the custom actions I've handled - and this isn't a slight against custom actions, I love Defiance and I am getting a new rifle built on a Defiance (ion bonded though).

I'm thinking about ion bonding my current defiance action to slick it up a bit, perhaps I can get it to feel as good as my Remington 700 action

 

[DynamicAccuracy]

Custom actions come with more options and bolts are typically tighter tolerances over trued factory actions

 

[DynamicAccuracy]

That being said theoretically once the bolt is closed and it's locked down it shouldn't make Any difference in accuracy. II'm a firm believer in the placebo effect. If you think it'll make you better it tends to help mental game and youll see small differences.