Trump stops pay raises.

[pmclaine]

Could just be a tactical move....

Tough to bitch about cuts where the real fat is - foreign aid, unarmored littoral combat ships that have to have turbines replaced prior to commissioning, FBI agents sent to HR instead of being fired -when you can say "Hey we took a cut too."

Truth be told over 8-10 hard years govt rarely missed annual raises while the private sector pay retracted.

There used to be valid reason govt workers got good peripheral perks - the pay sucked - now pay and perks often exceed private sector.

Not to say private sector doesnt have its own self created issues that fuck the worker....CEO/Executive pay ratio to worker pay/benefits is insane and having just visited Nantucket Ive seen the yachts that prove it.

Privately owned companies hey you built that - your balls are on the line - you likely realize your company is only as good as your employees and if you are smart you pay them well.

Publicly traded companies - as a shareholder you should be pissed some CEO gets a $5 million bonus because the company LOST LESS (but still lost) than it did the year before.

Am I sounding too BBBB/Avicukoo?

Perhaps I have.....

 

[Alphatreedog]

Avi this entire conversation is about as productive as a Federal employee. I don't think the lack of a raise will cripple these PHD's. But I do think just the thought of Trump being successful cripples you. Utopia has never and will never exist. You will never lift the poor by bringing down the rich.

Those folks work for us...we set the pay scale. If they don't like it, quit.

That should read you will never lift the stupid , clueless and lazy by bringing down the intelligent , hardworking go getters . Don't worry AVI some day you'll float to the top of your punch bowl you turd . @avi Libturd

 

[pmclaine]

Yeah, private sector stagnation is not a reason to rage at the government. Honestly I'm starting to think you're right about this. Get people worked up blaming the government and taxes so they don't wonder why they haven't gotten a raise. Private hospitals and accounting firms are giving raises. I was at a barbecue with some firms this week, 10-15%/yr is normal for accounting.

If your industry is profitable, but you're not getting raises to at least keep up with inflation, it's not because of the government.

Huh?

Who is blaming govt for private sector raises or lack of?

Your response has nothing to do with the gist of my post.....interpreter please.

 

[FS1]

If the govt pushes out companies and sends all your jobs overseas. The labor market then becomes cutthroat. Those willing to work for the least get the job. It's a downward spiral.

If the Govt welcomes those companies and brings jobs here. The labor market becomes cutthroat and the highest bidder gets the the good people. Wages move up It's a upward spiral.

Yes the Govt. is responsible for wage growth in the private sector. The Govt should get the hell out of the way.

 

[Subwrx300]

So why not tie govt wage increases to the same level as private sector growth/wages? If we start growing wages in private sector, increase public sector wages. If private sector shrinks, so should government wages.

 

[Snuby642]

The privet sector cuts it's own throat, by offloading everything.
When things are out of spec, or worse yet made to a bad spec, and or not on time,
The asswipe that self promoted the cost savings is not held accountable, ever!

Not nearly enough veterans in charge of things that matter anymore.

The snot nosed mba's are incompetent, that goes for our government and contractors.

 

[Subwrx300]

The privet sector cuts it's own throat, by offloading everything.
When things are out of spec, or worse yet made to a bad spec, and or not on time,
The asswipe that self promoted the cost savings is not held accountable, ever!

Not nearly enough veterans in charge of things that matter anymore.

The snot nosed mba's are incompetent, that goes for our government and contractors.

I should have clarified: I am not saying tie military pay to private sector. If you put your life on the line, pay raises are due, period.

However the desk jocks and any office/gov branch of stupidity should be tied to private sector. If business owners are pulling back wages/investment due to low growth or no growth, tax revenues are lower, therefore so too should be spending by our uncle. Specifically senators and house reps among all the others.

If they create better policy to promote growth (lower taxes, interest rates etc) then wages go back up and they can keep their wages.

I understand that lots of normal folks are employed by the government in different sectors but the expectation that our government is always a "safe haven" for wage growth vs private sector is ridiculous. It encourages the very lack of efficiency that we have today.

Figure out how to keep government workers focused on increasing efficiency to make earn raises/growth and we are all better off to allow for investment in other areas of the government and reward innovation rather than screw everything down with chains because "that's how it's always been done".

 

[ArmyJerry]

well the whole enterprise is incompetent so yeah, maybe we can get a circular firing squad going.

The manager was promoted to his level of incompetence. You really want him making decisions?

 

[ArmyJerry]

the military pay should be based on private sector, for 05 and below, 06 and above should get 10% more per grade than the 05, a Private in infantry should get the same pay as an RN and any non combat arms should get half that.

Except for the usps the rest of fed gov is useless and a danger to the republic. legalize dueling in DC let the issue self correct.

I should have clarified: I am not saying tie military pay to private sector. If you put your life on the line, pay raises are due, period.

However the desk jocks and any office/gov branch of stupidity should be tied to private sector. If business owners are pulling back wages/investment due to low growth or no growth, tax revenues are lower, therefore so too should be spending by our uncle. Specifically senators and house reps among all the others.

If they create better policy to promote growth (lower taxes, interest rates etc) then wages go back up and they can keep their wages.

I understand that lots of normal folks are employed by the government in different sectors but the expectation that our government is always a "safe haven" for wage growth vs private sector is ridiculous. It encourages the very lack of efficiency that we have today.

Figure out how to keep government workers focused on increasing efficiency to make earn raises/growth and we are all better off to allow for investment in other areas of the government and reward innovation rather than screw everything down with chains because "that's how it's always been done".

 

[MosesTheTank]

Yeah, private sector stagnation is not a reason to rage at the government. Honestly I'm starting to think you're right about this. Get people worked up blaming the government and taxes so they don't wonder why they haven't gotten a raise. Private hospitals and accounting firms are giving raises. I was at a barbecue with some firms this week, 10-15%/yr is normal for accounting.

If your industry is profitable, but you're not getting raises to at least keep up with inflation, it's not because of the government.

Avicado,

I am not sure a barbecue is the best reference point for assessing pay and the labor market. The bureau of labor statistics is a more reliable source, and probably draws data points from a larger population than you gathered surrounding the grill. The market is more nuanced than may be revealed when gnashing on some ribs and putting back a cold one.

The where (BLS has lots of geo data), the who (incumbents vs leaving for a new job), and of course what you are doing for a living, as you pointed out, all make for an interesting picture.

10-15% is not normal for accounting.

Start here, but do not stop here:
https://www.bls.gov/news.release/eci.nr0.htm

 

[quietmike]

Or just go with highschool accounting: wages and salaries payable are a liability to be minimized. Your boss should pay you as little as it takes to keep you working there, regardless of whether the company can afford to pay you more.

Why should that be different?
The company is in business to make a profit, not employ people.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

It is not the government's fault Wal-Mart pays dick. But It's the managing public CPA's fault for charging more than he is worth plus snatching a guaranteed payment regardless of the firm's income or loss that can't be tied to the firm's billings to their customers. CPA's are in no position to tell a corporation how to run a business. And let us not forget CPAs play a large role in convulated corporate structure schemes.

 

[quietmike]

Avicado
How many people does your business employ?

 

[FS1]

But I digress, if anyone thinks it's the government's fault that wages are low, watch what Walmart and the other companies who were given big tax cuts do. Or just go with highschool accounting: wages and salaries payable are a liability to be minimized. Your boss should pay you as little as it takes to keep you working there, regardless of whether the company can afford to pay you more.

Avi thanks for proving my point. The govt has allowed our jobs to leave (by design) We were going to be a service economy not manufacturing. Hint: building cars pays better than flipping burgers. Also lets allow unfettered immigration to be sure there is a over abundance of cheap labor. Thus forcing Labor to work cheaper or go on the Govt dime. If you won't do the job for less, Juan will.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Let me see your workpapers, Avicuckold.

 

[FS1]

So the government should step in and prevent companies from offshoring, right?

Avi I know you are dense, so I'll type slowly. They should stop giving them the incentive to offshore by making it so costly to stay here.

 

[quietmike]

The only way it gets less costly to stay is by lowering the cost of living for American workers. Many of these companies already pay a negative corporate income tax, often negotiated with specific loopholes. Boeing, off the top of my head, and Wal-Mart, but both continue to import foreign goods, fire experienced labor for new-hires, and outsource or export manufacture.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/11/trump-corporate-tax-reform-jobs/544487/

We've been cutting corporate taxes since the 80s and individual taxes on the top earners since the 70s, but companies keep offshoring faster and faster. If taxes are the problem, why hasn't cutting taxes worked? Because I know you don't think the solution is lowering the standard of living for workers, you've said as much.

In reality, there is no such thing as a corporate tax, as their cost gets passed on to the consumer as higher prices on finished goods.
But corporate taxes feed liberals visceral need to stick it to successful people.

 

[quietmike]

Jobs ARE coming back, thanks to the tax cuts.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...-bringing-most-jobs-back-to-america/36438051/

 

[308pirate]

31 percent of federal workers are veterans.

So the fuck what?

I am one too. Like that entitles anyone to any special consideration.

 

[308pirate]

Jobs ARE coming back, thanks to the tax cuts.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...-bringing-most-jobs-back-to-america/36438051/

+1 I am seeing this first hand

Unlike Avidouchebag, I actually work in an American manufacturing company and times could not be better.

 

[Snuby642]

Gov contractors, when the workers had pay / benifits cut management explained that
It was necessary and if we didn't like it we could leave.
Then the same gready bastereds started cutting management benifits and on anual
Reviews asked them how much of a cut they would take to keep thier jobs?
Management went ballistic and took it out on the workers.

The workers laughed in managements face and told them if you don't like it please leave.
The place is a disfunction epicenter, a hollow shell of what it once was.

And now the government gets a less than pristeen product destined for early failure.
Big shot executives have thier hand on the ripcord of thier golden parachutes.

Ultimately you will get fired if you point out this to anyone.

I hope gov pay freezes don't have the same outcome.
Military pay should be a separate issue, desk jockeys dont get shot at often.

 

[308pirate]

What .gov needs is an across the board hiring freeze for all sub-departments that don't directly relate to public safety or national security, and a huge team of "The two Bobs" to do away with its massive glut of unnecessary employees and gross inefficiencies.



But, if a pay freeze gets government spending a bit under control, I'll consider it a start.

Federal employment needs an enema badly to get rid of the massive amounts of dead weight and waste

 

[quietmike]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/steveb...manufacturers-are-not-reshoring/#301c1666460c

A list of companies reshoring does not mean that the net move is toward reshoring.

When there are more open jobs than unemployed people, reality speaks for itself.
Compainrs are having a hard enough time finding workers, they're lowering hiring standards and raising pay and benefits.
I notice you didn't bother to address my point about corporate taxes.

 

[Rthur]

This example is but a small portion of the totality of the problem.
https://howmuch.net/articles/the-30-biggest-political-donors-on-the-fortune-500

Do you think they are doing this for civic duty or expect something in return?


R

 

[quietmike]

"Who pay's the tax" is a complex question. Corporate tax is a thing specifically because we consider a corporation to be autonomous. IF corporations weren't granted the rights they were, they wouldn't be taxed. It's a hedge against hiding wealth in the corporation. Are you familiar with the debates between the Keynesian subschools?

Here's a question that you should be able to answer if you're educated about the economy: what do we mean when we say someone is unemployed?

Who pays the tax is a simple question, if we're not trying to push a narrative.
Do you think ExxonMobil has a board meeting and decides to tell their shareholders about a loss of profit due to increased corporate taxes (or any other expense), or do they find a way to cut costs elsewhere, such as employment, or raise their prices to cover the costs?
Tarriffs and corporate taxes are identical in effect to the consumer. Leftys rage against tarriffs, because their puppetmasters told them to, but love corporate taxes becausr big successful entities remind liberals how small and insignificant they feel inside.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Stop using the media as sources. Write your own fucking dissertations. We're still waiting on your workpapers, BTW.

 

[quietmike]

IF that's your understanding of economics then frankly there's no point. IOt would be like trying to explain ELR ballistics to someone who keeps insisting that bullets rise when they come out of the barrel.

Come back to me at least able to define unemployment and we'll continue. I have no patience for the cult of ignorance.

Feigned indignation when huffpo didn't prepare you properly for an answer?
Why am I not surprised?
Talking about ignorance and using Keynesian economics in the same sentence???

 

[quietmike]

 

[quietmike]

Your boy predicted a global recession after Trump's election.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...-night-2016/paul-krugman-the-economic-fallout

Keynesianism is socialism dressed up as an economic theory. Like socialism it sounds great when being preached to people with no practical experience, but fails miserably in reality.

 

[Rthur]

Agreed, looking at the money spent to fund the campaigns of various political figures we can all agree that they believe they gain significantly more than that in special tax breaks.



IF that's your understanding of economics then frankly there's no point. IOt would be like trying to explain ELR ballistics to someone who keeps insisting that bullets rise when they come out of the barrel.

Come back to me at least able to define unemployment and we'll continue. I have no patience for the cult of ignorance.

As we seem to be in agreement the following should be a revelation.
https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/graphics/2016-presidential-campaign-fundraising/
From Bloomberg.
It would seem the corporate world was favoring someone 2 to 1.
Unless you believe these numbers were from Joe 6 pack and Suzy shit for brains.

R

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Move on Avicuckold. You don't want to count the fucking bums shitting on the public sidewalk as unemployed. Nobody does.

 

[quietmike]

You didn't answer, you repeated a talking point. For you to be right, we have to throw out all of economics, all of it totally. We have to ignore the lobbying money spent on lowering taxes, the continually lowering tax rates, and the continual offshoring. We have to ignore that offshoring is still the trend, and yous till don't know what unemployed is. To you everything is socialism and socialism is communism, and frankly I'm not going to discuss economics with someone who has to ignore facts to keep supporting voodoo economics. When you can answer those contradictions instead of making unsupported declarations, then we can move forward.

Also i don't know if you got Culpepper's memo but we're not allowed to link to "the media" anymore so you need to write you own dissertation on Keynesian economics.

You didn't answer about the effective differences between a corporate tax and a tarriff.
Socialism is communism with patience.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Fucking moron with smoke and mirrors arguing with marksmen. A corporation is treated like person for tax purposes. It is taxed on taxable income. A tariff is a tax imposed on imported TPP. Can we get away from stupid comparisons. Stop asking questions and write a fucking term paper.

 

[quietmike]

You don't want to count the fucking bums shitting on the public sidewalk as unemployed.

Or the welfare whores whose only life skill is squatting out bastard kids like a human brood mare.

 

[quietmike]

Fucking moron with smoke and mirrors arguing with marksmen. A corporation is treated like person for tax purposes. It is taxed on taxable income. A tariff is a tax imposed on imported TPP. Can we get away from stupid comparisons. Stop asking questions and write a fucking term paper.

A big government liberal complaining about corporations when corporations only exist as a creation of government.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

And that is where you show your stupidity. She would have pegged you like a little bitch. Ask, Bill.

 

[Rthur]

That is a good point. Hillary wasn't my first choice, I just thought she was a damn sight better than Trump. I find it's interesting to look at what happens to those major donors after the election. You know, if major donors were granted choice positions in the government, or special considerations, say cabinet positions. Trump didn't appoint any major donors to cabinet positions, did he?

Your assessment of Hillary removes any and all credibility you have labored to gather.
She is the definition of pay to play.

R

 

[Deleted member 10043]

People elect to create a corporation, LLC, partnership, and so forth. The government doesn't tell a sole proprietorship to change their type of ownership. The government create a scheme for people to avoid total liability with the help of the wealthy at heart but everybody gets a chance to enjoy that fruit of labor. And so it is. When it comes to money and personal responsibility people are no damn good. Always has been and always will be

 

[quietmike]

Now that's not even historically accurate.

Who must approve your "articles of incorporation"?
A. Your employees
B. Your heirs
C. The government

Also you can favor a larger government without thinking everything government does is good. Perhaps if you and your small-government minded compatriots could advocate for a smaller government without skipping straight to government=bad, we could have productive conversations.

Not all government is bad, some is even necessary. But government is ALWAYS the most expensive, least flexible, and most intrusive way to solve any problem.
Government is best when kept small, weak, and local. The founders knew this over 200 years ago, hence the 10th amendment.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

I agree except for the weak part. People have allowed us to become a paper tiger. The latest president doesn't like being screwed on a deal. Don't be weak.

 

[quietmike]

I agree except for the weak part. People have allowed us to become a paper tiger. The latest president doesn't like being screwed on a deal. Don't be weak.

I wasn't clear. Weak in what it can do for/to the citizens.

 

[quietmike]

That is a good point. Hillary wasn't my first choice,

Let me take a wild guess, Sanders supporter?

 

[quietmike]

Nope.

Now go back to your homework and start working out the contradictions I mentioned so this thread can continue.

The only contradiction is how a kid just a couple years out of college, who has yet to do anything productive, can tell established men why what their doing is wrong.
Grow up a bit, get some life experience, give your balls time to drop, then come back.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

He is just out of college?

 

[FS1]

He is just out of college?

Sounds likely, maybe Soros footed the bill. It would explain a lot. Obiwan would say "the university indoctrination force is strong in this one".

 

[FS1]

My age and experience (which is not nothing) doesn't invalidate your inability to explain fundamental contradictions in your economic models. That's just the Trump model though, when someone has legitimate criticism you attack them instead of addressing it.

Paradox? Avi if there is any economic model with contradictions it is yours. Your model has failed many times in history. Actually it has failed every time it has been tried. Your model is a fantasy based in Vapor and What Ifs. The Trump model just happens to be accellerating and proving everything you say is wrong.

Grow up. Put your big girl pants on.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Your age and experience has everything to do with you. It is competitive out there. I can understand if you're scared. The University didn't prepare you for what is in store for you and acting out in the wrong forum won't help you cope. Trying to convince people old enough to be your parent or grandparent is futile. By the time you become that generation your views will have changed many times. All you have is your academics right know. That is not enough. You are just now an entry level nitwit. Not that there is anything wrong with that. But it is what it is. And only if you live long enough.

 

[supercorndogs]

I'm not just a 20 year old college grad, but thanks for playing.

Also I'm well aware I can't change your minds, but we've already covered why. You think age and raising kids means you can handwave away whatever you want. That's the entitlement generation attitude at work.

No, its called realizing what you didn't know when you are young and dumb. They are all well aware you are too young and dumb to realize you don't know, what you don't know. You keep trotting out the same tired old arguments. I am not sure you are young. I think you might be an Alzheimers patient.

How about you explain the fundamental contradictions in our economic models. I could use a good laugh.

 

[SONIC SAAMI]

It’s easy,if you are a federal, state, county or city worker covered under a bargaining agent contract I.E union employee you are a fucking scumbag. You are nothing but a blight upon this country,a scourge to every Private sector worker.
For god sake‘s even the most socialist communist president this country ever had Franklin Delano Roosevelt was against the public sector unions.

 

[quietmike]

My age and experience (which is not nothing) doesn't invalidate your inability to explain fundamental contradictions in your economic models. That's just the Trump model though, when someone has legitimate criticism you attack them instead of addressing it.

Please point out the contradictions you think you see.