Suppressors Trust Attorneys, How to Remove Wife?

[Strykervet]

So I have a trust, my ex wife is also a trustee. Now I have to remove her from it so I can use it. I contacted the attorney that drafted it and here it is a week later and he's "not sure on how to remove her, it's complex". And "he has to contact her to get her to sign a paper releasing all interest in it". Note I talked to him prior to the divorce to find out exactly what he'd need and I was told to get the trust named in the divorce papers, which I did, and that'd be it. Now he needs her signature? I thought all he had to do was draft another without her and then just burn the old one? I have the only copy. I have the divorce decree awarding me the trust and all that's in it. She was a trustee and guarantor prior to the divorce (and is still on the papers).

So how is it that damn difficult? I kinda get the feeling he wants to make me wait, then try and hit me with a big price "because it's so hard".
I'm worried he'll fuck up the trust into something nobody can understand by amending it. Wouldn't it just be easier, and legal, to just start over?
So is this guy full of shit, trying to angle for more money I don't have, or is he telling the truth?

What if I just took the trust I have, then re-wrote it word for word only without her presence in it, get it notarized, then burn the original?

 

[j741]

You have to amend the existing trust in some manner. I am not a lawyer, but I think if you want to have the items in a new trust then you must do a transfer from existing to new. But depending on wording that may require her signature. It really comes down to the language of the trust.

I think if you just burn the old one then you may have issues depending on how you transferred items in to the trust when purchased.

ultimately, you need to find a lawyer you trust. and it likely will cost a bit.

 

[Strykervet]

I have the lawyer that wrote it, I just was told it'd be super easy and now it's not so easy...

I wouldn't burn it until I had a new one. What I simply don't get is why I can't reword the existing one, calling it exactly the same so it won't require a transfer, simply remover as if she never existed in the first place.

I know I can't possibly be the first person to both have a trust and get a divorce, so I wonder why it's so damn mysterious.

 

[Tiger_Shilone]

Gonna depend on what your state laws are, some states requires trust be entered into their records, so you just cant burn it if that's the case. I have a "I'm God and I can do what I want" clause in my trust which basically allows me to kick anybody out of the trust with no recourse, but my trust was drawn up by a very knowledgeable NFA attorney specialised in doing gun trust. My attorney charges $300 to amend a trust he wrote, $400 for ones he didnt.

 

[Threadcutter308]

I have the lawyer that wrote it, I just was told it'd be super easy and now it's not so easy...

I wouldn't burn it until I had a new one. What I simply don't get is why I can't reword the existing one, calling it exactly the same so it won't require a transfer, simply remover as if she never existed in the first place.

I know I can't possibly be the first person to both have a trust and get a divorce, so I wonder why it's so damn mysterious.

Hey Stryker,

Try contacting Keith Wells @ NW Gun law group in Woodinville. He did my trust, very sharp lawyer. Also an FFL.

https://nwgunlawgroup.com/contact/

 

[EXTREMEPREJUDICE]

What if I just took the trust I have, then re-wrote it word for word only without her presence in it, get it notarized, then burn the original?

When you submitted your Form 4 you listed her as a "responsible person/trustee" so sorry, that's a no go, destroying and replacing the original just a bad idea.

 

[diverdon]

I'm not a lawyer (surprise, surprise) But until I found a lawyer to do what I wanted I would staple a notarized copy of the divorce agreement to the back of the trust and consider it an amendment.

 

[spife7980]

@TexasGunTrustLawyer Any input?

 

[BurnOut]

Come up with a fake death certificate for the wife? ;-)














I'm JOKING, don't do dat.

 

[rijndael]

Yea, don't go with a fake one, real ones probably work better.

 

[hollowoutadime]

"don't go with a fake one, real ones probably work better. "
...i think you can get into trouble for doing that....

 

[Strykervet]

Hey Stryker,

Try contacting Keith Wells @ NW Gun law group in Woodinville. He did my trust, very sharp lawyer. Also an FFL.

https://nwgunlawgroup.com/contact/

My attorney is the guy that started NW Gun Law Group, he's a vet and also an NFA collector so I guess I'm doing all I can. What a hassle. They said they can do it if he wants them to (I think he still owns NW or whatever, not sure of the specifics). Cost will be the price of a basic trust, $250. I already have $500 in it (to put her on it of all things). Only problem is if he can't get ahold of her to get her signature, she's the type to just drop everything and run away and hide from problems and that's how she handled our relationship and the divorce so I don't expect her to respond to the lawyer unless she's made to. I don't know, maybe she'll act like an adult.

I do know any hassle she hands down to me I can put on the back burner and let simmer until she needs me or my signature for something and I just won't play the game. As a last resort, I have some of her items she left behind that are heirlooms and I know she wants, so it'll be tit for tat if it comes to it (though I'd rather he just sign the goddamn paper and she come get the rest of her stuff).

@TexasGunTrustLawyer Any input?

That's kinda who I was hoping would chime in.

 

[hollowoutadime]

"So I have a trust, my ex wife is also a trustee. Now I have to remove her from it so I can use it ."

Not a lawyer and have all my cans as an individual. I believe that the trust "owns" the cans. Assuming they're in your possession, you can shoot them. She would want to have a copy of the trust in the unlikeliest chance you would loan them to her and she would be asked at the range by an ATF agent to show paperwork. So it's probably all a moot point if she doesn't want to sign a quitclaim doc. Personally, I think you have better shot at writing it up yourself and having her sign it. Bring in the atty and make a big deal out of it and it might become a big deal - ie let cooler heads prevail.

I don't loan out tools, hence the individual nature of my paperwork.

Another longshot, is there any responsibility of the trustor to remove a "no longer eligible" trustee from the list of trustees? Like a pissed of divorcee who commits a felony and isn't eligible to own firearms.

 

[spife7980]

It will be specific to your particular trust, give it a read and see which rights are expressly granted in writing with in it.

I went with the NFA lawyers and they have this amendment to the trust to strip it to just yourself.
https://nfalawyers.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/41F-Amendment.pdf
https://nfalawyers.com/new-41f-update-nfa-lawyers-clients/
The nfalawyers trust differentiates between a settlor and trustee, settlor having all of the power.

"The power to alter, amend, modify, or revoke this Trust is personal to the Settlor during his lifetime" "The Settlor may remove a Trustee or Beneficiary at any time for any reason and may nominate and appoint another Trustee or Beneficiary"

I havent done this myself as my father is on it and everything is actually in his possession down at the ranch.

 

[Strykervet]

Yeah, the attorney read it and says he needs to get her to sign something. The problem isn't that I can't use anything in it, the problem lies in that I can't "use" the trust --I can't send in a Form 1 or 4 without having HER fingerprints and photos and signatures now too, thanks to 41F. When I got it, 41F didn't exist and divorce was the farthest thing from my mind.

I guess there's a way to do it without her but it's more of a hassle.

On the other hand, I haven't really touched any of it or worked on anything since she left... The last four months feel like they've sucked more than four years of vitality out of me at once. Still needs to be done though.

 

[wfjames22]

My attorney is the guy that started NW Gun Law Group, he's a vet and also an NFA collector so I guess I'm doing all I can. What a hassle. They said they can do it if he wants them to (I think he still owns NW or whatever, not sure of the specifics). Cost will be the price of a basic trust, $250.

When you get ready for your next form 1 or 4, just have a new trust drafted without her on it. It’s going to cost you the same amount of money as taking her off (your statement above) and who gives a shit if your new nfa items are on a different trust than previous ones.

 

[Strykervet]

When you get ready for your next form 1 or 4, just have a new trust drafted without her on it. It’s going to cost you the same amount of money as taking her off (your statement above) and who gives a shit if your new nfa items are on a different trust than previous ones.

I don't know why I didn't consider that but it's an option. Hopefully he gets back to me and can unfuck it. I'd like to keep it all together if I can.

 

[A5scott]

I'm not a lawyer....
Depending on your state and trust it could be just adding a rider to amend the trust. Trustees and beneficiaries can be removed. Grantors cannot be removed. It could be as simple as a sentence saying something like "As of 4/19/18 I (Grantor) hereby remove ex wife name (trustee) from nameofyour Trust. It may not even need to be notarized.

I have a Silencershop Trust, and I asked them this a couple years ago, and I remember it being very simple. Only the Grantor really needed to sign the amendment, and the amendment just gets tacked onto the end of the trust. I was going to remove trustees to limit the number of extra fingerprints and bs I would have to submit with post 41F NFA items, and then add them back on after said items were approved, but I didn't end up buying any more.

Again, I don't know what trust you have, but I don't think removing a trustee is something that's overly complicated. If she is the only trustee aside from the grantor, you may need to find another trustee to add, as I believe a trust needs a grantor and trustee thats's not also the grantor. One exception I know of are the new Silencershop Single shot trusts that only require one person.

Scott

 

[Bender]

Yea, don't go with a fake one, real ones probably work better.

Lmaoooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Strykervet]

Yeah, we are both grantors and trustees, so I guess it's more complicated.

 

[A5scott]

Depending on how many items you have, transferring them to a new trust may be an option... like the single shot trust from silencershop, especially if there is a SS kiosk near you, and you can't think of anyone else to be a trustee. That's not the best way, but it's an option.

Scott

 

[Strykervet]

My attorney mentioned it but unless there's a one time transfer fee I'm not interested. I have a pretty healthy Schedule A.

Was supposed to get back to me today and I never heard from 'em. Fucking figures. I'll call Monday.

 

[pell1203]

Put any new items you purchase on a Silencer Shop Single Shot Trust at a cost of $25.

You can be the sole responsible person until it is approved (only you need to send fingerprints/picture) and later you can add and remove additional persons as you see fit by simply filling out and notarizing some forms.

 

[Strykervet]

Yeah, I know I could just get another trust but I really need her off this thing, transferring to a new trust won't really work because the lowers are engraved and I'd like to keep it that way anyway. I know they do this under certain circumstances, don't know if divorce is one but it should be.

Hopefully she'll be an adult and call my lawyer back or fax him his form or whatever so it doesn't have to get difficult.

He says he's in his final stages... I hope so. I hope he's got good news for me next week.

 

[A5scott]

somebody back me up on this, but you can use the same trust name more than once... so that may help out as far as engraved lowers not having to be engraved again

Scott

 

[Strykervet]

somebody back me up on this, but you can use the same trust name more than once... so that may help out as far as engraved lowers not having to be engraved again

Scott

I don't think I can have two trusts with the same name? Still waiting on him, didn't get back to me yesterday.

 

[Strykervet]

Finally near the end, attorney got in touch with ex and said she was really nice and helpful he's in the process of removing her. Said he's busy but will get back to me when it's done. What a hassle.

My advice after all this? Just make your wife a beneficiary. No fingerprints or pictures and she inherits it when you die and she can use all the items in it just the same. Less hassle all the way around, especially after a divorce.

Really don't know who to leave my trust to. No family, no friends that'd appreciate it. Wish I could make some kind of "reverse trust" deal!

 

[dinmax82]

I don't believe beneficiaries can have access to the items, so no.

 

[flyer]

I am available as a beneficiary.

 

[Darkside-Six]

In all honesty it shouldn't be that hard. if you are the primary trustee, or "settler" as mine is written, then you should just be able to type up an amendment removing her yourself. Same as an address change. a friend of mine has a trust with his wife and kids on it. his oldest is in college out of state so he made an amendment and removed him as a "Responsible person" before he ordered his last few cans and had no issues. if you're lawyer is doing it and your Ex is being cool then that all works out in the end but in my opinion it should be pretty simple.

 

[Strykervet]

In all honesty it shouldn't be that hard. if you are the primary trustee, or "settler" as mine is written, then you should just be able to type up an amendment removing her yourself. Same as an address change. a friend of mine has a trust with his wife and kids on it. his oldest is in college out of state so he made an amendment and removed him as a "Responsible person" before he ordered his last few cans and had no issues. if you're lawyer is doing it and your Ex is being cool then that all works out in the end but in my opinion it should be pretty simple.

That's what I thought, but a grantor can't write out another grantor. He made it very clear to me how it works. BTW, my attorney is the one that started NW Gun Law Group and is also the one that drafted the Gundocx. trust in the first place. He's pretty much the alpha and omega when it comes to these trusts. And the trust is a "person" so killing it off without her approval is akin to "murder" for lack of another way of putting it. I can't murder the trust. I guess there's another way around it but we didn't have to go that route and I'm guessing it's the less desirable one since nothing else was mentioned. Since she signed off though, removing her is simple now and it can be amended.

A "lifetime beneficiary" has FULL USE of the arsenal until rescinded. It means they can take items home with them or to the range unsupervised. Would I ever do that? Hell no! But it does allow for that. A trustee can purchase and sell on behalf of the trust and write out beneficiaries. A grantor can do it all plus write out trustees (but not other grantors).

Whatever you do, you only want ONE grantor on your trust.

If I could find someone that'd go to a lawyer with me and was interested, and that person paid me up front, I'd be willing to leave all firearms related stuff to that person up on my death. I could use the money now and have nobody to leave it to. I'm sure something could be worked out with the right person(s).

 

[Strykervet]

Supposedly she just signed off on it. And I'm only supposed to be charged the price of a basic trust, $250. Basically they are drafting a new one without her, but it'll still have to mention her being removed. It'll have the same name and everything.

I can't recall the specifics when we sat at the table, I just told them I wanted her to be able to buy and sell and when I died for her not to have to do anything. I guess they took that literal. I wish I'd known the difference between grantor and trustee, but hindsight is 20/20.

He's actually done a good job so far and he's the one to go to in order to get a good trust around here. I can't say anything bad. I'm the one that put her as a grantor at the end of the day. At least he got her to sign the paper, which was done by fax or email I'm sure.

Still waiting on him to call me to come in to get it squared away. I'd like to do that sooner than later.

 

[Darkside-Six]

Ok. Makes sense I guess. Mine was written as myself the “settlor” and my wife and kids as “trustee” so it makes it easy for me to make amendments.

 

[j-huskey]

Wasn't Strykervets mistake on this, on the whole, at best a misunderstanding on how he wanted things to go at the end, and how the lawyer wrote it up, with her as a grantor.

As a grantor, she has equal ownership to the trust and any trust property. PFE.... she has to sign a quit claim deed to any real property on a trust. Doesn't matter in the divorce the judge gives you the land, the house, the car, if her name is on it as owner, grantor, or any other title that denotes equal or full ownership, she has to sign off AND all divorce papers worth a shit should order sign offs, quit claims, etc, so she can be found in contempt, if she doesn't.
On any properly prepared trust, the grantor exercises full power unless three named trustees declare him incompetent and get it court ordered.
A proper trust delineates trustee duties and nfa trusts give trustees property rights so they can handle the property. A non specific trust does not give property rights until death/incompetency of the grantor or owner.

Trustees should be named/placed on a "schedule xx" sheet so as you add or remove trustees you can add an amended "schedule xx" sheet..... rather than rewrite the whole trust. Your lawyer might not agree.

I'm into 4k with a second lawyer now, cleaning up a trust f'up, on a piece of dirt. Some of what I tell u here comes from previous divorce, some from this latest high $ lesson.

If your state laws require your trust to be filed like a deed or mortgage you have another layer to negotiate, to include filing fees each time you alter the trust.... And you open up your business to court house prowlers..... just sayin.

Once Strykervets lawyer gets ex signed off, there will be an amendment sheet, a copy of the sign off, and a copy of the divorce that will have to stay with the original notarized trust forever........ pay attention.....

There were several other very bad thoughts mentioned in the topic, and I hope y'all don't do them..... SV is on the right track right now.....

 

[Deleted member 10043]

You're fucked.

 

[j-huskey]

It will be easier on SV in the future to do new items on a new trust, because to prove to BATFE, that paper packet I described above has to follow each new "deal" to prove "de beech" is no longer a responsible person....
Had she not been listed as a grantor, a simple amended trustee schedule attached would suffice.

Were it me, say trust 1 was "Strykervets Trust", trust 2 would be "Strykervets Trust (a)" . So, if he transferred anything to trust 2," (a) " would be the only engraving change required.

I go back to sleep now.

 

[Strykervet]

Well, the attorney sent her a form to sign and sent me a form to sign and I printed, signed, scanned and emailed mine back. Just got a email earlier from the lawyer saying my ex was nice enough and signed and sent them the form. So I just need to go down there and sign the form on the amended trust, pay 'em and I'm good to go again --with ONE grantor this time!

I specifically mentioned wanting her to be a trustee, and that I wanted her to have the same powers as me, but I guess they took it literally and made her a grantor also.

Oh well, it's fixed now and I just need to get up there and sign it. One of the last things need be done to settle the divorce. Well, until I have to move in two years anyway. Not looking forward to that really. But my trust and other items are all I walked away with so it's important I be able to use it and leave it who I choose. Basically, I got everything inside the house and she got actual house I'd added significant equity to and several shares of Tesla stock worth over $30k last I looked So even though she still has a mortgage, what she got will appreciate over the years. My stuff will depreciate, be banned and not worth anything to anyone but me, or put on the NFA registry as a new category, "Assault Rifles" or whatever the fuck, in which case they'll turn out to be significant investments, but we'll just have to see.

Most of the "money" in what I got from the divorce is actually damn .50BMG loading components for about 10,000 rounds. Loaded and belted I guess they'd be worth a good bit but boy is it some damn hard work!

Just glad to get my trust fixed.

 

[Strykervet]

So for you guys with wives considering a trust, DO NOT make her the grantor! Cannot stress this enough. Make her a trustee and she can do everything you can do but you can easily remove her without a lawyer. Without her signature. So only ONE grantor --you.

IF she's already a grantor and you're still married, I'd go ahead and change it anyway. I'd tell her it's so I can remove her to do sales so she doesn't have to fart around with pictures and fingerprints, which would be true, and then it can be changed later to make her a trustee and she'll have all the powers you have, which is also true (except you can remove her but not the other way around --don't have to tell her that!). And telling her that way, that's better than telling her it's a kind of prenup, you know?

IF she's already a grantor and you're divorced, you're gonna need to do what I did, contact an estate lawyer, preferably one that specifies in NFA law, and have her removed. Part of that will be getting her to sign a form for you and I guess that depends on how bad she hates you. If you won the trust in court, and it's named "such and such trust" goes to you, then I guess you could drag her in small claims to sign it and make her pay for the court costs. If she signs it, you're good to go. But you MUST have the trust awarded to you by name in the final divorce papers. Bottom line here is you WANT her to sign it, and that she does so. It's the easiest fix after the fact, especially if it doesn't wind up in small claims.

IF you can't get her to sign it for whatever reason, then I guess they apparently have a way around that but it's not easy I understand. There are actually a few ways to deal with it, but ultimately you want her off that trust. If you don't then when you die it all goes to her regardless of who you leave it to. I think ATF has hardship transfers but I'm not sure divorce is covered or not. If that's possible, then transferring everything into a new trust might not be a bad idea, but if you have several items and they require normal Form 4's for each item, then I'd look for another way.

Good luck to everyone out there with wives on NFA trusts!

 

[Markol]

I'm new to the forum and NFA (I just got my first two stamps back last month) so please forgive me if I'm missing something obvious, but why are you so concerned about having her removed from the trust? I have all my stuff filed as individual so I've never been through the trust process but does she have some kind of power as a grantor of your trust that you don't want her to have anymore or something like that? Just trying to figure out what it is you're trying to prevent by having her removed. Glad you got it fixed though! Sounds like a nightmare.

 

[spife7980]

He won his stuff and she got the house. He gets kicked out of the house and she gets kicked out of the trust. If she still had her full powers she could do whatever she wanted with the trusts assets including taking them or selling them.

 

[Markol]

Oh I was under the impression that she didn't have any physical access to his NFA items so I couldn't figure out why it matters whether or not she's a grantor on the trust.

 

[hlee]

And, as a grantor, he needs her fingerprints/photos/signature to add or remove items from the trust...

 

[Markol]

And, as a grantor, he needs her fingerprints/photos/signature to add or remove items from the trust...

Ooooh I didn't realize that, I'm sure that's what the main reason is. Now it makes a lot more sense, thank you for the info.

 

[packratt]

And, as a grantor, he needs her fingerprints/photos/signature to add or remove items from the trust...

Even just as a Trustee he would still need fingerprints/photos/signature to add and remove. The difference is he could have removed her at will.

 

[Strykervet]

Grantor: Gotta go through a bunch of shit to remove. Grantor has full powers and upon death everything goes to the second Grantor.

Trustee: Grantor can omit a Trustee. Both require prints, photos because both can make changes to the Schedule 1. Pretty sure Trustee inherits upon death but not sure.

Beneficiary upon death: Inherits everything upon death of above. Don't need prints and photos. Grantor or Trustee can change.

Lifetime Beneficiary: Granted access to items in the trust for life (unless changed; can be changed same day, hour, whatever). Cannot make changes to the trust. Has full access and can even keep items overnight (this isn't recommended but it is possible) unless restrictions are applied.

So I got my papers today, still have to open it up yet. It's a long hassle, still not technically finished!

Oh I was under the impression that she didn't have any physical access to his NFA items so I couldn't figure out why it matters whether or not she's a grantor on the trust.

Hope this clears up everything Markol. Yes, essentially I needed her removed so I could both make purchases/sales and so I could dictate the person who inherits it. She doesn't have physical access to the trust or anything in it. I can still use what I have but no changes can be made without her removal or consent. Her removal is guaranteed via the divorce agreement but it still has to be done in writing. Trusts can be finicky, and what I've learned the hard way so take it FWIW, it's best to have ONE Grantor and then make your wife Trustee, just in case. She'll still have all the powers you have including buying and selling but can be removed by the Grantor. Actually, it'd be best to have one Grantor/Trustee now because of 41F but when I got it both of us could purchase (and sell) items without each other's consent and we did. Even had we remained married due to 41F we'd probably have changed it for convenience.

You really need an attorney put it all together because if you didn't and had it setup the way I did and didn't bother to contact an attorney to remove the other Grantor, you could be up shit creek. So here's a second reason not to do it yourself. I thought it would be easy to remove her but it depends on how the trust is worded. It's all in the words.

 

[Strykervet]

So I opened it up and it's basically, well it IS, a new trust. It's called a "restatement of the trust" though. It has updated info regarding 41F and new local laws. It's a binder with lots of information tabulated for reference with a table of contents. Well thought out. And the attorney also has papers that further cement the trust. He's pretty watertight when it comes to this, he's been doing it a long time and is one of the pioneers in trusts. He designed the template many use. Anyway, I just have to notarize it to make it legal, send him some scanned copies and then I think it's GTG. I plan on doing that today. Be nice to put this behind me. Not sure what I owe him, I think the price of a basic trust plus shipping, so $265 at most I'd think. My fault but had I know more about what a Grantor is she'd never have been one I don't think.

Not a lawyer but I'm learning a lot about these trusts, how they work and what constitutes a good one and how to make major changes such as removing a Grantor.

 

[LunaCustomGuns]

Some very interesting info in this thread.

 

[ezekeial]

Very good info in thread. As a trust grantor, it be appreciated.