If I set up a trust for class 3 items how will this change the process? Will I still need to get a signature from the Sheriff?
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Suppressors trust question
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Re: trust question
NO, you will no longer need LEO sign off..... the trust will own the NFA item in question but thats no big deal
NO, you will no longer need LEO sign off..... the trust will own the NFA item in question but thats no big deal
Re: trust question
No fingerprints, photos or LEO signoff needed.
The ATF will not conduct a criminal background check.
In Texas, you don't have to file the trust with any city, county or state agencies.
Joshua Prince is an attorney who does trusts in Pennsylvania. He has a website that has some FAQs.
No fingerprints, photos or LEO signoff needed.
The ATF will not conduct a criminal background check.
In Texas, you don't have to file the trust with any city, county or state agencies.
Joshua Prince is an attorney who does trusts in Pennsylvania. He has a website that has some FAQs.
Re: trust question
Look on my website under "Downloads". There is a trust example that you can change with your info free of charge, then have it notorized. It has been used for transfers in most southern states and reviewed by several Trust/Tax Attorneys.
I hold no responsibility for its use.
There are instructions to walk you through the process and an example form 4.
Here is more reading info for you:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1622660&page=1
Do a search on what is required in your state to make a trust a legal document. The info is out there you just need to search the web for it.
Take Care,
Hoop
Look on my website under "Downloads". There is a trust example that you can change with your info free of charge, then have it notorized. It has been used for transfers in most southern states and reviewed by several Trust/Tax Attorneys.
I hold no responsibility for its use.
There are instructions to walk you through the process and an example form 4.
Here is more reading info for you:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1622660&page=1
Do a search on what is required in your state to make a trust a legal document. The info is out there you just need to search the web for it.
Take Care,
Hoop
Re: trust question
Yes, yes there is background check. It is done by the FBI.
DId you actually think there wouldn't be?
Yes, yes there is background check. It is done by the FBI.
DId you actually think there wouldn't be?
Re: trust question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, yes there is background check. It is done by the FBI.
DId you actually think there wouldn't be? </div></div>
How do you do a background check on a corporation? It isn't a person it is a entity.
And no finger prints shortens the wait time also.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, yes there is background check. It is done by the FBI.
DId you actually think there wouldn't be? </div></div>
How do you do a background check on a corporation? It isn't a person it is a entity.
And no finger prints shortens the wait time also.
Re: trust question
If the deal was done through a dealer, wouldn't the dealer have to phone it in when you fill out the 4473 (if you don't have a concealed permit)?
I'm pretty sure I filled out one when I picked up my SBR.
If the deal was done through a dealer, wouldn't the dealer have to phone it in when you fill out the 4473 (if you don't have a concealed permit)?
I'm pretty sure I filled out one when I picked up my SBR.
Re: trust question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trigg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the deal was done through a dealer, wouldn't the dealer have to phone it in when you fill out the 4473 (if you don't have a concealed permit)?
I'm pretty sure I filled out one when I picked up my SBR. </div></div>
Nope they check the NFA box on the 4473, no phone call.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trigg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the deal was done through a dealer, wouldn't the dealer have to phone it in when you fill out the 4473 (if you don't have a concealed permit)?
I'm pretty sure I filled out one when I picked up my SBR. </div></div>
Nope they check the NFA box on the 4473, no phone call.
Re: trust question
Oh, learn something new everyday. I had my permit, so I thought that was why they didn't call it in.
Oh, learn something new everyday. I had my permit, so I thought that was why they didn't call it in.
Re: trust question
A NFA item no matter what it is, is a firearm under the GCA. Therefore when the item is transferred, a 4473 and call to FBI NICS is required.
A NFA item no matter what it is, is a firearm under the GCA. Therefore when the item is transferred, a 4473 and call to FBI NICS is required.
Re: trust question
Hooper +1
"How do you do a background check on a corporation? It isn't a person it is a entity. And no finger prints shortens the wait time also."
The Trust <span style="font-weight: bold">is not </span>a Corporation.
A Trust <span style="font-weight: bold">is not </span>an LLC.
A Trust has a Setllor and Trustee(s).
A Trust gets the full and formal review by the FBI.
There is <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">no shortened wait time </span></span>due to not submitting finger prints. It is a myth.
There may also be some evidence that those that successfully have stamps as individuals, and are now Trust Settlors, process faster.
There is <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">no process time difference </span></span>between LLC, Trust or Individual.
Hooper +1
"How do you do a background check on a corporation? It isn't a person it is a entity. And no finger prints shortens the wait time also."
The Trust <span style="font-weight: bold">is not </span>a Corporation.
A Trust <span style="font-weight: bold">is not </span>an LLC.
A Trust has a Setllor and Trustee(s).
A Trust gets the full and formal review by the FBI.
There is <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">no shortened wait time </span></span>due to not submitting finger prints. It is a myth.
There may also be some evidence that those that successfully have stamps as individuals, and are now Trust Settlors, process faster.
There is <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">no process time difference </span></span>between LLC, Trust or Individual.
Re: trust question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hooper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A NFA item no matter what it is, is a firearm under the GCA. Therefore when the item is transferred, a 4473 and call to FBI NICS is required.
</div></div>
Hooper, you should know better.
Under NFA 1934 they are a firearm, under GCA they are NFA.
I should have known if I didn't post a reference it would be questioned. Read the form and the instructions for it.
Form 4473, page 2, line 14. checkbox. NO NICS CHECK WAS REQUIRED BECAUSE THE TRANSFER INVOLVED ONLY NFA FIREARM(S) 4473 Page 2
Instructions, page 4 number 6 (b) Instructions
Almost as bad as listening to the Walmart gun counter salesperson tell me BATF requires all lines to be filled in and no abbreviations are allowed.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hooper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A NFA item no matter what it is, is a firearm under the GCA. Therefore when the item is transferred, a 4473 and call to FBI NICS is required.
</div></div>
Hooper, you should know better.
Under NFA 1934 they are a firearm, under GCA they are NFA.
I should have known if I didn't post a reference it would be questioned. Read the form and the instructions for it.
Form 4473, page 2, line 14. checkbox. NO NICS CHECK WAS REQUIRED BECAUSE THE TRANSFER INVOLVED ONLY NFA FIREARM(S) 4473 Page 2
Instructions, page 4 number 6 (b) Instructions
Almost as bad as listening to the Walmart gun counter salesperson tell me BATF requires all lines to be filled in and no abbreviations are allowed.
Re: trust question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hooper +1
"How do you do a background check on a corporation? It isn't a person it is a entity. And no finger prints shortens the wait time also."
The Trust <span style="font-weight: bold">is not </span>a Corporation.
A Trust <span style="font-weight: bold">is not </span>an LLC.
A Trust has a Setllor and Trustee(s).
A Trust gets the full and formal review by the FBI.
There is <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">no shortened wait time </span></span>due to not submitting finger prints. It is a myth.
There may also be some evidence that those that successfully have stamps as individuals, and are now Trust Settlors, process faster.
There is <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">no process time difference </span></span>between LLC, Trust or Individual.
</div></div>
You are wrong on the treatment of a trust, and if you agree with Hooper on 4473's you are wrong there too.
A trust is a legal entity equal in the eye of the law, as it pertains to NFA, to a corporation or LLC and gets the same review any corporation or LLC gets.
I agree there is no process difference between any of the entities, just depends on your examiner and their workload.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hooper +1
"How do you do a background check on a corporation? It isn't a person it is a entity. And no finger prints shortens the wait time also."
The Trust <span style="font-weight: bold">is not </span>a Corporation.
A Trust <span style="font-weight: bold">is not </span>an LLC.
A Trust has a Setllor and Trustee(s).
A Trust gets the full and formal review by the FBI.
There is <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">no shortened wait time </span></span>due to not submitting finger prints. It is a myth.
There may also be some evidence that those that successfully have stamps as individuals, and are now Trust Settlors, process faster.
There is <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">no process time difference </span></span>between LLC, Trust or Individual.
</div></div>
You are wrong on the treatment of a trust, and if you agree with Hooper on 4473's you are wrong there too.
A trust is a legal entity equal in the eye of the law, as it pertains to NFA, to a corporation or LLC and gets the same review any corporation or LLC gets.
I agree there is no process difference between any of the entities, just depends on your examiner and their workload.
Re: trust question
No NICS check required on the person completing the 4473 for a trust or corp transfer.
No NICS check required on the person completing the 4473 for a trust or corp transfer.
Re: trust question
When a regular transfer is performed where fingerprints, photo, and full background is done, then sure a 4473 is just filled out and the INDIVIDUAL has been checked out and no need to call it in.
When a TRUST or CORP transfer is done, there needs to be a 4473 done and FBI NICS background with proceed confirmation code recorded.
If it were done like you guys are saying, a FELON named John Smith or other generic name could fill out a trust, be approved and I guess YOU GUYS as a dealer would hand over a suppressor to a felon. I call in a FBI NICS on every transfer I do. If the transferee does not like it, I am sure there are other dealers who will just do the minimum.
A NFA ITEM IS A FIREARM.
When a regular transfer is performed where fingerprints, photo, and full background is done, then sure a 4473 is just filled out and the INDIVIDUAL has been checked out and no need to call it in.
When a TRUST or CORP transfer is done, there needs to be a 4473 done and FBI NICS background with proceed confirmation code recorded.
If it were done like you guys are saying, a FELON named John Smith or other generic name could fill out a trust, be approved and I guess YOU GUYS as a dealer would hand over a suppressor to a felon. I call in a FBI NICS on every transfer I do. If the transferee does not like it, I am sure there are other dealers who will just do the minimum.
A NFA ITEM IS A FIREARM.
Re: trust question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mtmisfit</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hooper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A NFA item no matter what it is, is a firearm under the GCA. Therefore when the item is transferred, a 4473 and call to FBI NICS is required.
</div></div>
Hooper, you should know better.
Under NFA 1934 they are a firearm, under GCA they are NFA.
Almost as bad as listening to the Walmart gun counter salesperson tell me BATF requires all lines to be filled in and no abbreviations are allowed.
</div></div>
GCA, 1934 NFA, whatever. NFA items are FIREARMS. I guess had I mispelled something you would have corrected me too.
As far as the WalMart Reference, that is funny but you missed the point here.
BATFE is very strict on dealers with their Acquisition/Disposition books, especially NFA. Most of the examiners who go over this stuff know little about NFA and if you call them 6 times and ask 6 different folks the same question, you might get 6 different answers. This has been discussed on various forums.
Therefore, as a dealer, I dot every "i" and cross every "T" and strive to go above and beyond to make sure there are no mistakes.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mtmisfit</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hooper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A NFA item no matter what it is, is a firearm under the GCA. Therefore when the item is transferred, a 4473 and call to FBI NICS is required.
</div></div>
Hooper, you should know better.
Under NFA 1934 they are a firearm, under GCA they are NFA.
Almost as bad as listening to the Walmart gun counter salesperson tell me BATF requires all lines to be filled in and no abbreviations are allowed.
GCA, 1934 NFA, whatever. NFA items are FIREARMS. I guess had I mispelled something you would have corrected me too.
As far as the WalMart Reference, that is funny but you missed the point here.
BATFE is very strict on dealers with their Acquisition/Disposition books, especially NFA. Most of the examiners who go over this stuff know little about NFA and if you call them 6 times and ask 6 different folks the same question, you might get 6 different answers. This has been discussed on various forums.
Therefore, as a dealer, I dot every "i" and cross every "T" and strive to go above and beyond to make sure there are no mistakes.
Re: trust question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Atomic Lab Rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No NICS check required on the person completing the 4473 for a trust or corp transfer. </div></div>
I hope you are kidding and are not failing to call in Trust transfers.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Atomic Lab Rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No NICS check required on the person completing the 4473 for a trust or corp transfer. </div></div>
I hope you are kidding and are not failing to call in Trust transfers.
Re: trust question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hooper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mtmisfit</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hooper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A NFA item no matter what it is, is a firearm under the GCA. Therefore when the item is transferred, a 4473 and call to FBI NICS is required.
</div></div>
Hooper, you should know better.
Under NFA 1934 they are a firearm, under GCA they are NFA.
Almost as bad as listening to the Walmart gun counter salesperson tell me BATF requires all lines to be filled in and no abbreviations are allowed.
</div></div>
GCA, 1934 NFA, whatever. NFA items are FIREARMS. I guess had I mispelled something you would have corrected me too.
As far as the WalMart Reference, that is funny but you missed the point here.
BATFE is very strict on dealers with their Acquisition/Disposition books, especially NFA. Most of the examiners who go over this stuff know little about NFA and if you call them 6 times and ask 6 different folks the same question, you might get 6 different answers. This has been discussed on various forums.
Therefore, as a dealer, I dot every "i" and cross every "T" and strive to go above and beyond to make sure there are no mistakes.
</div></div>
For such a technical subject you sure aren't concerned with technicalities.
I have actually read the laws, and as far as GCA is concerned, NFA are not firearms. Each act has its own set of definitions.
Do whatever you like at your shop. I would not do business with someone with an SOT that had so little knowledge of the laws and differences between NFA and GCA items as you display.
You are inventing laws that don't exist and inflicting them upon your customers. Same as Walmart is doing.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hooper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mtmisfit</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hooper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A NFA item no matter what it is, is a firearm under the GCA. Therefore when the item is transferred, a 4473 and call to FBI NICS is required.
</div></div>
Hooper, you should know better.
Under NFA 1934 they are a firearm, under GCA they are NFA.
Almost as bad as listening to the Walmart gun counter salesperson tell me BATF requires all lines to be filled in and no abbreviations are allowed.
GCA, 1934 NFA, whatever. NFA items are FIREARMS. I guess had I mispelled something you would have corrected me too.
As far as the WalMart Reference, that is funny but you missed the point here.
BATFE is very strict on dealers with their Acquisition/Disposition books, especially NFA. Most of the examiners who go over this stuff know little about NFA and if you call them 6 times and ask 6 different folks the same question, you might get 6 different answers. This has been discussed on various forums.
Therefore, as a dealer, I dot every "i" and cross every "T" and strive to go above and beyond to make sure there are no mistakes.
</div></div>
For such a technical subject you sure aren't concerned with technicalities.
I have actually read the laws, and as far as GCA is concerned, NFA are not firearms. Each act has its own set of definitions.
Do whatever you like at your shop. I would not do business with someone with an SOT that had so little knowledge of the laws and differences between NFA and GCA items as you display.
You are inventing laws that don't exist and inflicting them upon your customers. Same as Walmart is doing.
Re: trust question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mtmisfit</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hooper +1
"How do you do a background check on a corporation? It isn't a person it is a entity. And no finger prints shortens the wait time also."
The Trust <span style="font-weight: bold">is not </span>a Corporation.
A Trust <span style="font-weight: bold">is not </span>an LLC.
A Trust has a Setllor and Trustee(s).
A Trust gets the full and formal review by the FBI.
There is <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">no shortened wait time </span></span>due to not submitting finger prints. It is a myth.
There may also be some evidence that those that successfully have stamps as individuals, and are now Trust Settlors, process faster.
There is <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">no process time difference </span></span>between LLC, Trust or Individual.
</div></div>
You are wrong on the treatment of a trust, and if you agree with Hooper on 4473's you are wrong there too.
A trust is a legal entity equal in the eye of the law, as it pertains to NFA, to a corporation or LLC and gets the same review any corporation or LLC gets.
I agree there is no process difference between any of the entities, just depends on your examiner and their workload. </div></div>
To be safe, I would contact an NFA Attorney.
I have no position on 4473, I do know that "belt and suspender" dealers do them to have them on file in their shops.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mtmisfit</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hooper +1
"How do you do a background check on a corporation? It isn't a person it is a entity. And no finger prints shortens the wait time also."
The Trust <span style="font-weight: bold">is not </span>a Corporation.
A Trust <span style="font-weight: bold">is not </span>an LLC.
A Trust has a Setllor and Trustee(s).
A Trust gets the full and formal review by the FBI.
There is <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">no shortened wait time </span></span>due to not submitting finger prints. It is a myth.
There may also be some evidence that those that successfully have stamps as individuals, and are now Trust Settlors, process faster.
There is <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">no process time difference </span></span>between LLC, Trust or Individual.
</div></div>
You are wrong on the treatment of a trust, and if you agree with Hooper on 4473's you are wrong there too.
A trust is a legal entity equal in the eye of the law, as it pertains to NFA, to a corporation or LLC and gets the same review any corporation or LLC gets.
I agree there is no process difference between any of the entities, just depends on your examiner and their workload. </div></div>
To be safe, I would contact an NFA Attorney.
I have no position on 4473, I do know that "belt and suspender" dealers do them to have them on file in their shops.
Re: trust question
Its obvious that Hoopster isn't so good at reading.
Hoopster should read the forms that he is using as an FFL.
Its obvious that he hasn't read and understood the 4473 or the November 2008 FFL Newsletter.
2008 FFL Newsletter
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Procedure after approval
Approved NFA transfers are exempt from the NICS background check. So, when the FFL arranges for the disposition of the NFA firearm to a representative of the corporation or other entity, only the ATF Form 4473, Firearms Transaction Record, must be completed by the representative of the corporation or other entity.
All other recordkeeping requirements of the Gun Control Act must be met.</div></div>
It is also on the 4473 in the dealer section. Clearly stated for those who can read english.
Its obvious that Hoopster isn't so good at reading.
Hoopster should read the forms that he is using as an FFL.
Its obvious that he hasn't read and understood the 4473 or the November 2008 FFL Newsletter.
2008 FFL Newsletter
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Procedure after approval
Approved NFA transfers are exempt from the NICS background check. So, when the FFL arranges for the disposition of the NFA firearm to a representative of the corporation or other entity, only the ATF Form 4473, Firearms Transaction Record, must be completed by the representative of the corporation or other entity.
All other recordkeeping requirements of the Gun Control Act must be met.</div></div>
It is also on the 4473 in the dealer section. Clearly stated for those who can read english.
Re: trust question
Specifically, The Hoospeer should read item 22 in the dealer's section of the 4473:
item 22 on form 4473
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">item 22 No NICS check was requried becasue the transfer involved only NFA firearm(s) </div></div>
Heck, the hoopster could simply read the instructions that were helpfully included on the form 4473 just for guys like him.
Heck the ATF even has a nice FAQ on their website
ATF FAQs re NICS check requirements
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Q: Are there exceptions to the Brady law’s requirement for a NICS check prior to a licensee’s transfer of a firearm to an unlicensed individual?
Firearm transfers are exempt from the requirement for a NICS check in 3 situations. These include transfers: (1) to buyers having a State permit that has been recognized by ATF as an alternative to a NICS check; <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">(2) of National Firearms Act weapons approved by ATF;</span></span> and (3) certified by ATF as exempt because compliance with the NICS check requirement is impracticable.
[18 U.S.C. 922(t), 27 CFR 478.102(d)]
</div></div>
Anyway, hope this helps you out HOOPSTER and I hope you don't get upset over it like you did in the last two threads on the two forums that we saw each other in.
Specifically, The Hoospeer should read item 22 in the dealer's section of the 4473:
item 22 on form 4473
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">item 22 No NICS check was requried becasue the transfer involved only NFA firearm(s) </div></div>
Heck, the hoopster could simply read the instructions that were helpfully included on the form 4473 just for guys like him.
Heck the ATF even has a nice FAQ on their website
ATF FAQs re NICS check requirements
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Q: Are there exceptions to the Brady law’s requirement for a NICS check prior to a licensee’s transfer of a firearm to an unlicensed individual?
Firearm transfers are exempt from the requirement for a NICS check in 3 situations. These include transfers: (1) to buyers having a State permit that has been recognized by ATF as an alternative to a NICS check; <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">(2) of National Firearms Act weapons approved by ATF;</span></span> and (3) certified by ATF as exempt because compliance with the NICS check requirement is impracticable.
[18 U.S.C. 922(t), 27 CFR 478.102(d)]
</div></div>
Anyway, hope this helps you out HOOPSTER and I hope you don't get upset over it like you did in the last two threads on the two forums that we saw each other in.
Re: trust question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hooper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Atomic Lab Rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No NICS check required on the person completing the 4473 for a trust or corp transfer. </div></div>
I hope you are kidding and are not failing to call in Trust transfers. </div></div>
To bad that you are wrong about the law, the forms and the requirements of both . . . . as usual.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hooper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Atomic Lab Rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No NICS check required on the person completing the 4473 for a trust or corp transfer. </div></div>
I hope you are kidding and are not failing to call in Trust transfers. </div></div>
To bad that you are wrong about the law, the forms and the requirements of both . . . . as usual.
Re: trust question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Atomic Lab Rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hooper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Atomic Lab Rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No NICS check required on the person completing the 4473 for a trust or corp transfer. </div></div>
I hope you are kidding and are not failing to call in Trust transfers. </div></div>
To bad that you are wrong about the law, the forms and the re
quirements of both . . . . as usual. </div></div>
So, answer my question:
Are you transferring NFA Items as a dealer to transferees via TRUST and not calling in a FBI NICS check?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Atomic Lab Rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hooper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Atomic Lab Rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No NICS check required on the person completing the 4473 for a trust or corp transfer. </div></div>
I hope you are kidding and are not failing to call in Trust transfers. </div></div>
To bad that you are wrong about the law, the forms and the re
quirements of both . . . . as usual. </div></div>
So, answer my question:
Are you transferring NFA Items as a dealer to transferees via TRUST and not calling in a FBI NICS check?
Re: trust question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hooper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Atomic Lab Rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hooper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Atomic Lab Rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No NICS check required on the person completing the 4473 for a trust or corp transfer. </div></div>
I hope you are kidding and are not failing to call in Trust transfers. </div></div>
To bad that you are wrong about the law, the forms and the re
quirements of both . . . . as usual. </div></div>
So, answer my question:
Are you transferring NFA Items as a dealer to transferees via TRUST and not calling in a FBI NICS check?
</div></div>
You dont have to call in the 4473 when filling it out for a Class 3 item that is already approved by the ATF. you fill the form out for the dealers records only. It shows that you did, indeed, pick it up from him and he turned the weapon over to the approved owner.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hooper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Atomic Lab Rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hooper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Atomic Lab Rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No NICS check required on the person completing the 4473 for a trust or corp transfer. </div></div>
I hope you are kidding and are not failing to call in Trust transfers. </div></div>
To bad that you are wrong about the law, the forms and the re
quirements of both . . . . as usual. </div></div>
So, answer my question:
Are you transferring NFA Items as a dealer to transferees via TRUST and not calling in a FBI NICS check?
</div></div>
You dont have to call in the 4473 when filling it out for a Class 3 item that is already approved by the ATF. you fill the form out for the dealers records only. It shows that you did, indeed, pick it up from him and he turned the weapon over to the approved owner.
Re: trust question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hooper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Atomic Lab Rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
To bad that you are wrong about the law, the forms and the re
quirements of both . . . . as usual. </div></div>
So, answer my question:
Are you transferring NFA Items as a dealer to transferees via TRUST and not calling in a FBI NICS check?
</div></div>
Hoopster,
still having reading comprehension problems are you? Still wrong?
I was kind enough to post the references on both the ATF website and the form 4473.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hooper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Atomic Lab Rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
To bad that you are wrong about the law, the forms and the re
quirements of both . . . . as usual. </div></div>
So, answer my question:
Are you transferring NFA Items as a dealer to transferees via TRUST and not calling in a FBI NICS check?
</div></div>
Hoopster,
still having reading comprehension problems are you? Still wrong?
I was kind enough to post the references on both the ATF website and the form 4473.
Re: trust question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mtmisfit</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hooper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A NFA item no matter what it is, is a firearm under the GCA. Therefore when the item is transferred, a 4473 and call to FBI NICS is required.
</div></div>
Hooper, you should know better.
Under NFA 1934 they are a firearm, under GCA they are NFA.
I should have known if I didn't post a reference it would be questioned. Read the form and the instructions for it.
Form 4473, page 2, line 14. checkbox. NO NICS CHECK WAS REQUIRED BECAUSE THE TRANSFER INVOLVED ONLY NFA FIREARM(S) 4473 Page 2
Instructions, page 4 number 6 (b) Instructions
Almost as bad as listening to the Walmart gun counter salesperson tell me BATF requires all lines to be filled in and no abbreviations are allowed.
</div></div>
Roger that mtmisfit.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mtmisfit</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hooper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A NFA item no matter what it is, is a firearm under the GCA. Therefore when the item is transferred, a 4473 and call to FBI NICS is required.
</div></div>
Hooper, you should know better.
Under NFA 1934 they are a firearm, under GCA they are NFA.
I should have known if I didn't post a reference it would be questioned. Read the form and the instructions for it.
Form 4473, page 2, line 14. checkbox. NO NICS CHECK WAS REQUIRED BECAUSE THE TRANSFER INVOLVED ONLY NFA FIREARM(S) 4473 Page 2
Instructions, page 4 number 6 (b) Instructions
Almost as bad as listening to the Walmart gun counter salesperson tell me BATF requires all lines to be filled in and no abbreviations are allowed.
Roger that mtmisfit.
Re: trust question
Under NFA 1934 they are a firearm, under GCA they are NFA.
I have actually read the laws, and as far as GCA is concerned, NFA are not firearms. Each act has its own set of definitions.
Per: TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > § 921 (GCA68)
(3) The term “firearm” means
(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;
(B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;
(C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or
(D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.
Under NFA 1934 they are a firearm, under GCA they are NFA.
I have actually read the laws, and as far as GCA is concerned, NFA are not firearms. Each act has its own set of definitions.
Per: TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > § 921 (GCA68)
(3) The term “firearm” means
(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;
(B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;
(C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or
(D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.
Re: trust question
should the 4473 be called in on a trustee ? that is my question.
If individual I can see why they wouldn't they've already done their checks etc.
But when a trust goes through do they check out the trustee?
Also never understood how mulitple trustees could be named on the trust and all have access to the nfa weapon. Does the NFA check out of them or just the primary trustee? What if one of the trustee's becomes a felon etc?
should the 4473 be called in on a trustee ? that is my question.
If individual I can see why they wouldn't they've already done their checks etc.
But when a trust goes through do they check out the trustee?
Also never understood how mulitple trustees could be named on the trust and all have access to the nfa weapon. Does the NFA check out of them or just the primary trustee? What if one of the trustee's becomes a felon etc?
Re: trust question
The November 2008 FFL newletter, item 22 on the 4473 and the instructions on the 4473 say no NICS check on approved transfers of NFA items.
That is what it says.
The November 2008 FFL newletter, item 22 on the 4473 and the instructions on the 4473 say no NICS check on approved transfers of NFA items.
That is what it says.
Re: trust question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300WSM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">should the 4473 be called in on a trustee ? that is my question.
If individual I can see why they wouldn't they've already done their checks etc.
But when a trust goes through do they check out the trustee?
Also never understood how mulitple trustees could be named on the trust and all have access to the nfa weapon. Does the NFA check out of them or just the primary trustee? What if one of the trustee's becomes a felon etc? </div></div>
A trust is a legal entity same as an LLC or a corporation. Your hang up seems to be the word trust.
Would you call in a NICS check on every person in an LLC before doing a transfer? a corporation?
Felon, same as if it occurred in an LLC or Corporation. It is the responsibility of the officers/trustees of the corporation/trust to control access to the NFA items.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300WSM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">should the 4473 be called in on a trustee ? that is my question.
If individual I can see why they wouldn't they've already done their checks etc.
But when a trust goes through do they check out the trustee?
Also never understood how mulitple trustees could be named on the trust and all have access to the nfa weapon. Does the NFA check out of them or just the primary trustee? What if one of the trustee's becomes a felon etc? </div></div>
A trust is a legal entity same as an LLC or a corporation. Your hang up seems to be the word trust.
Would you call in a NICS check on every person in an LLC before doing a transfer? a corporation?
Felon, same as if it occurred in an LLC or Corporation. It is the responsibility of the officers/trustees of the corporation/trust to control access to the NFA items.
Re: trust question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: khronoscide</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Under NFA 1934 they are a firearm, under GCA they are NFA.
I have actually read the laws, and as far as GCA is concerned, NFA are not firearms. Each act has its own set of definitions.
Per: TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > § 921 (GCA68)
(3) The term “firearm” means
(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;
(B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;
(C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or
(D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.
</div></div>
Yep, sorry. It's only Machineguns that aren't firearms per GCA. "(23) The term “machinegun” has the meaning given such term in section 5845(b) of the National Firearms Act (26 U.S.C. 5845 (b))."
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: khronoscide</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Under NFA 1934 they are a firearm, under GCA they are NFA.
I have actually read the laws, and as far as GCA is concerned, NFA are not firearms. Each act has its own set of definitions.
Per: TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > § 921 (GCA68)
(3) The term “firearm” means
(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;
(B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;
(C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or
(D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.
</div></div>
Yep, sorry. It's only Machineguns that aren't firearms per GCA. "(23) The term “machinegun” has the meaning given such term in section 5845(b) of the National Firearms Act (26 U.S.C. 5845 (b))."
Re: trust question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Atomic Lab Rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The November 2008 FFL newletter, item 22 on the 4473 and the instructions on the 4473 say no NICS check on approved transfers of NFA items.
That is what it says.
</div></div>
That may be what it says, but knowing as a dealer that virtually no proper background check was done, then handing the item over to someone who was not checked out is irresponsible.
So, back to my question, Mr. NFA Trust Lawyer:
<span style="font-weight: bold">Do you transfer Silencers via Trust as a dealer without calling in a FBI Nics background check on the person when they take possession of the NFA item?</span>
Got you questioning your Transfer practices?
Tell us the answer.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Atomic Lab Rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The November 2008 FFL newletter, item 22 on the 4473 and the instructions on the 4473 say no NICS check on approved transfers of NFA items.
That is what it says.
</div></div>
That may be what it says, but knowing as a dealer that virtually no proper background check was done, then handing the item over to someone who was not checked out is irresponsible.
So, back to my question, Mr. NFA Trust Lawyer:
<span style="font-weight: bold">Do you transfer Silencers via Trust as a dealer without calling in a FBI Nics background check on the person when they take possession of the NFA item?</span>
Got you questioning your Transfer practices?
Tell us the answer.
Re: trust question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hooper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Atomic Lab Rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The November 2008 FFL newletter, item 22 on the 4473 and the instructions on the 4473 say no NICS check on approved transfers of NFA items.
That is what it says.
</div></div>
That may be what it says, but knowing as a dealer that virtually no proper background check was done, then handing the item over to someone who was not checked out is irresponsible.
So, back to my question, Mr. NFA Trust Lawyer:
<span style="font-weight: bold">Do you transfer Silencers via Trust as a dealer without calling in a FBI Nics background check on the person when they take possession of the NFA item?</span>
Got you questioning your Transfer practices?
Tell us the answer. </div></div>
As one who makes up his own rules please answer this.
What if you call in a NICS check for an NFA transfer and don't get an approval? Not denied, just delayed and you don't get a call back from NICS saying approved.
You are in possession of an NFA item not registered to you and you are not approved by the LLC, corporation or trust to have access to the item.
How do you answer BATFE when the NFA item is reported as stolen and is in your possession?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hooper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Atomic Lab Rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The November 2008 FFL newletter, item 22 on the 4473 and the instructions on the 4473 say no NICS check on approved transfers of NFA items.
That is what it says.
</div></div>
That may be what it says, but knowing as a dealer that virtually no proper background check was done, then handing the item over to someone who was not checked out is irresponsible.
So, back to my question, Mr. NFA Trust Lawyer:
<span style="font-weight: bold">Do you transfer Silencers via Trust as a dealer without calling in a FBI Nics background check on the person when they take possession of the NFA item?</span>
Got you questioning your Transfer practices?
Tell us the answer. </div></div>
As one who makes up his own rules please answer this.
What if you call in a NICS check for an NFA transfer and don't get an approval? Not denied, just delayed and you don't get a call back from NICS saying approved.
You are in possession of an NFA item not registered to you and you are not approved by the LLC, corporation or trust to have access to the item.
How do you answer BATFE when the NFA item is reported as stolen and is in your possession?
Re: trust question
thanks for the replies....can I have multiple people on the trust or will it just be for me?
thanks for the replies....can I have multiple people on the trust or will it just be for me?
Re: trust question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sig22940</div><div class="ubbcode-body">thanks for the replies....can I have multiple people on the trust or will it just be for me? </div></div>
Not sure about multiple people but definitely a spouse is allowed.
All I was concerned with was my wife & I having legal access to the items when the other was not present.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sig22940</div><div class="ubbcode-body">thanks for the replies....can I have multiple people on the trust or will it just be for me? </div></div>
Not sure about multiple people but definitely a spouse is allowed.
All I was concerned with was my wife & I having legal access to the items when the other was not present.
Re: trust question
I call on the person picking up the weapon on a NFA if they dont have a CHL, it is just my policy because I think their was a later news letter saying you have to,
If you dont have a CHL I cal, just my policy
I call on the person picking up the weapon on a NFA if they dont have a CHL, it is just my policy because I think their was a later news letter saying you have to,
If you dont have a CHL I cal, just my policy
Re: trust question
as a dealer i can be in possesion until the transfer is complete, I could always cancel the tranfser its not theirs until it leaves my shop.
as a dealer i can be in possesion until the transfer is complete, I could always cancel the tranfser its not theirs until it leaves my shop.
Re: trust question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 737SHARK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">as a dealer i can be in possesion until the transfer is complete, I could always cancel the tranfser its not theirs until it leaves my shop. </div></div>
What about the approved form 4? How long do you have to turn the NFA item over to the owner once you get the approved form 4 back from BATFE? Surely you don't process a form 4 before the item is paid for?
Surely it's not an unlimited amount of time you can withhold someones property once the transfer has been approved?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 737SHARK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">as a dealer i can be in possesion until the transfer is complete, I could always cancel the tranfser its not theirs until it leaves my shop. </div></div>
What about the approved form 4? How long do you have to turn the NFA item over to the owner once you get the approved form 4 back from BATFE? Surely you don't process a form 4 before the item is paid for?
Surely it's not an unlimited amount of time you can withhold someones property once the transfer has been approved?
Re: trust question
you have 60 days I believe to turn the item over to the approved owner before the ATF gets involved with it. And that can usually mean you lose your C3 license if they have to get their hands dirty.
you have 60 days I believe to turn the item over to the approved owner before the ATF gets involved with it. And that can usually mean you lose your C3 license if they have to get their hands dirty.
Re: trust question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 737SHARK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I call on the person picking up the weapon on a NFA if they dont have a CHL, it is just my policy because I think their was a later news letter saying you have to,
If you dont have a CHL I cal, just my policy </div></div>
I understand it's your policy, but what are the actual legal requirements?
Shouldn't your policy be based on what the law actually says? "Thinking" there might have been a letter isn't much of an argument considering a search of BATFE's web site shows no such letter/requirement.
I'm not trying to change anyones policies or how they do business. Just trying to figure out the reasoning behind the thinking.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 737SHARK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I call on the person picking up the weapon on a NFA if they dont have a CHL, it is just my policy because I think their was a later news letter saying you have to,
If you dont have a CHL I cal, just my policy </div></div>
I understand it's your policy, but what are the actual legal requirements?
Shouldn't your policy be based on what the law actually says? "Thinking" there might have been a letter isn't much of an argument considering a search of BATFE's web site shows no such letter/requirement.
I'm not trying to change anyones policies or how they do business. Just trying to figure out the reasoning behind the thinking.
Re: trust question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mtmisfit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As one who makes up his own rules please answer this.
<span style="font-weight: bold"> I do not make up my own rules. I know the answer to this issue and follow the law. A FBI NICS background must be done on Trust transfers. I addressed this issue years ago with BATFE and that was their answer. I do not write their regulations, I am just obligated to follow them.</span>
What if you call in a NICS check for an NFA transfer and don't get an approval? Not denied, just delayed and you don't get a call back from NICS saying approved.
<span style="font-weight: bold"> Even though this is worked out prior to a transfer, I would call back and get a definite answer. If denied, I reverse the transfer and refund applicable fees.</span>
You are in possession of an NFA item not registered to you and you are not approved by the LLC, corporation or trust to have access to the item.<span style="font-weight: bold">No, you are kidding right?</span>
How do you answer BATFE when the NFA item is reported as stolen and is in your possession?<span style="font-weight: bold">You are funny</span>
</div></div>
Answers in bold above.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mtmisfit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As one who makes up his own rules please answer this.
<span style="font-weight: bold"> I do not make up my own rules. I know the answer to this issue and follow the law. A FBI NICS background must be done on Trust transfers. I addressed this issue years ago with BATFE and that was their answer. I do not write their regulations, I am just obligated to follow them.</span>
What if you call in a NICS check for an NFA transfer and don't get an approval? Not denied, just delayed and you don't get a call back from NICS saying approved.
<span style="font-weight: bold"> Even though this is worked out prior to a transfer, I would call back and get a definite answer. If denied, I reverse the transfer and refund applicable fees.</span>
You are in possession of an NFA item not registered to you and you are not approved by the LLC, corporation or trust to have access to the item.<span style="font-weight: bold">No, you are kidding right?</span>
How do you answer BATFE when the NFA item is reported as stolen and is in your possession?<span style="font-weight: bold">You are funny</span>
</div></div>
Answers in bold above.
Re: trust question
How do you call in an FBI background check on a Trust?
Its not a person therefore you cant check its background.
If the ATF/NFA has approved your forms then you are good to go. The dealer can have you fill out the 4473 to show that he released it to you, the grantor of the trust, and he took down your ID to prove the items were released to you.
Stop stirring the pot Hooper. you are getting nowhere.
Think about this, as an individual you might be called in for the check, I never was and I went thru a large distributor for my first suppressor, then never called me in.
With a trust you dont have to do pictures, fingerprint cards, or have a signature. Why you ask? Because a Revocable trust is a DOCUMENT!!! NOT A PERSON
When is the last time you heard someone doing a background check on a document?
How do you call in an FBI background check on a Trust?
Its not a person therefore you cant check its background.
If the ATF/NFA has approved your forms then you are good to go. The dealer can have you fill out the 4473 to show that he released it to you, the grantor of the trust, and he took down your ID to prove the items were released to you.
Stop stirring the pot Hooper. you are getting nowhere.
Think about this, as an individual you might be called in for the check, I never was and I went thru a large distributor for my first suppressor, then never called me in.
With a trust you dont have to do pictures, fingerprint cards, or have a signature. Why you ask? Because a Revocable trust is a DOCUMENT!!! NOT A PERSON
When is the last time you heard someone doing a background check on a document?
Re: trust question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mtmisfit</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 737SHARK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I call on the person picking up the weapon on a NFA if they dont have a CHL, it is just my policy because I think their was a later news letter saying you have to,
If you dont have a CHL I cal, just my policy </div></div>
I understand it's your policy, but what are the actual legal requirements?
Shouldn't your policy be based on what the law actually says? "Thinking" there might have been a letter isn't much of an argument considering a search of BATFE's web site shows no such letter/requirement.
I'm not trying to change anyones policies or how they do business. Just trying to figure out the reasoning behind the thinking. </div></div>
Can't answer for Shark, but here is my take:
I will keep doing what I do as I like to abide by the regulations governing my profession. You guys can skirt the rules if you want, I prefer to stay in business. I am done with this thread unless called upon again.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mtmisfit</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 737SHARK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I call on the person picking up the weapon on a NFA if they dont have a CHL, it is just my policy because I think their was a later news letter saying you have to,
If you dont have a CHL I cal, just my policy </div></div>
I understand it's your policy, but what are the actual legal requirements?
Shouldn't your policy be based on what the law actually says? "Thinking" there might have been a letter isn't much of an argument considering a search of BATFE's web site shows no such letter/requirement.
I'm not trying to change anyones policies or how they do business. Just trying to figure out the reasoning behind the thinking. </div></div>
Can't answer for Shark, but here is my take:
I will keep doing what I do as I like to abide by the regulations governing my profession. You guys can skirt the rules if you want, I prefer to stay in business. I am done with this thread unless called upon again.
Re: trust question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYshooter338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How do you call in an FBI background check on a Trust?
Its not a person therefore you cant check its background.
If the ATF/NFA has approved your forms then you are good to go. The dealer can have you fill out the 4473 to show that he released it to you, the grantor of the trust, and he took down your ID to prove the items were released to you.
Stop stirring the pot Hooper. you are getting nowhere.
Think about this, as an individual you might be called in for the check, I never was and I went thru a large distributor for my first suppressor, then never called me in.
With a trust you dont have to do pictures, fingerprint cards, or have a signature. Why you ask? Because a Revocable trust is a DOCUMENT!!! NOT A PERSON
When is the last time you heard someone doing a background check on a document? </div></div>
Ok, try going to a gun dealer and purchasing a Glock or any other title I firearm on a trust. The rules state that when transferring a firearm to an unlicensed person, a FBI NICS background must be done.
A Suppressor is a firearm.
You guys might find a technicality somewhere that proves your point, but I prefer not to do business on a technicality.
I feel that who ever wrote up the new 4473 and placed a box stating that a CALL in was not required due to NFA transfer, did not think about the non traditional way to transfer like Trust or Corp where a FBI NICS background was not done.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYshooter338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How do you call in an FBI background check on a Trust?
Its not a person therefore you cant check its background.
If the ATF/NFA has approved your forms then you are good to go. The dealer can have you fill out the 4473 to show that he released it to you, the grantor of the trust, and he took down your ID to prove the items were released to you.
Stop stirring the pot Hooper. you are getting nowhere.
Think about this, as an individual you might be called in for the check, I never was and I went thru a large distributor for my first suppressor, then never called me in.
With a trust you dont have to do pictures, fingerprint cards, or have a signature. Why you ask? Because a Revocable trust is a DOCUMENT!!! NOT A PERSON
When is the last time you heard someone doing a background check on a document? </div></div>
Ok, try going to a gun dealer and purchasing a Glock or any other title I firearm on a trust. The rules state that when transferring a firearm to an unlicensed person, a FBI NICS background must be done.
A Suppressor is a firearm.
You guys might find a technicality somewhere that proves your point, but I prefer not to do business on a technicality.
I feel that who ever wrote up the new 4473 and placed a box stating that a CALL in was not required due to NFA transfer, did not think about the non traditional way to transfer like Trust or Corp where a FBI NICS background was not done.
Re: trust question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYshooter338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How do you call in an FBI background check on a Trust?
Its not a person therefore you cant check its background.
With a trust you dont have to do pictures, fingerprint cards, or have a signature. Why you ask? Because a Revocable trust is a DOCUMENT!!! NOT A PERSON
When is the last time you heard someone doing a background check on a document? </div></div>
27 CFR §479.11:
TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS, AND FIREARMS
CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
PART 479_MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS
--Table of Contents
Subpart B_Definitions
Sec. 479.11 Meaning of terms.
When used in this part and in forms prescribed under this part, where not otherwise distinctly expressed or manifestly incompatible with the intent thereof, terms shall have the meanings ascribed in this section.
AND:
Firearm. (g) a muffler or a silencer for any firearm whether or not such firearm is included within this definition;
AND:
Person. A partnership, company, association, trust, estate, or corporation, as well as a natural person.
There is nothing to misunderstand in the law, look it up yourself, a Trust by law IS a PERSON.
Under trust law, in a revocable living trust, the GRANTOR/Trustee of the trust is the person who must pay the taxes and be held responsible for any violations as long as they are alive. Once the GRANTOR is dead, the BENEFICIARY becomes the responsible party and the owner of the items in trust.
A suppressor by law is a FIREARM.
Based on that, and the other fucking laws out there, available to anyone to see: IF a FFL or SOT, has reason to believe the Grantor of said Trust, who is to receive the firearm, is a prohibited person, the FFL or SOT is not to deliver the firearm.
So, in filling out the 4473 and running a NICS check, the FFL/SOT definitely protects themself and their business.
In my JOB, I do enough work with BATFE that my department got a letter of commendation for superior performance and assistance to the BATFE when they require our assistance.
With the contacts I have with them, the answers they give, the law I quote above based on their answers, it's fair to say, some of you are flat fucked up.
That comment (fucked up) is not directed specifically at KYshooter338 or anyone else here, but if you ignore the laws that are posted above, you are fucked up and I hope ATFE burns your ass into dust.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYshooter338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How do you call in an FBI background check on a Trust?
Its not a person therefore you cant check its background.
With a trust you dont have to do pictures, fingerprint cards, or have a signature. Why you ask? Because a Revocable trust is a DOCUMENT!!! NOT A PERSON
When is the last time you heard someone doing a background check on a document? </div></div>
27 CFR §479.11:
TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS, AND FIREARMS
CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
PART 479_MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS
--Table of Contents
Subpart B_Definitions
Sec. 479.11 Meaning of terms.
When used in this part and in forms prescribed under this part, where not otherwise distinctly expressed or manifestly incompatible with the intent thereof, terms shall have the meanings ascribed in this section.
AND:
Firearm. (g) a muffler or a silencer for any firearm whether or not such firearm is included within this definition;
AND:
Person. A partnership, company, association, trust, estate, or corporation, as well as a natural person.
There is nothing to misunderstand in the law, look it up yourself, a Trust by law IS a PERSON.
Under trust law, in a revocable living trust, the GRANTOR/Trustee of the trust is the person who must pay the taxes and be held responsible for any violations as long as they are alive. Once the GRANTOR is dead, the BENEFICIARY becomes the responsible party and the owner of the items in trust.
A suppressor by law is a FIREARM.
Based on that, and the other fucking laws out there, available to anyone to see: IF a FFL or SOT, has reason to believe the Grantor of said Trust, who is to receive the firearm, is a prohibited person, the FFL or SOT is not to deliver the firearm.
So, in filling out the 4473 and running a NICS check, the FFL/SOT definitely protects themself and their business.
In my JOB, I do enough work with BATFE that my department got a letter of commendation for superior performance and assistance to the BATFE when they require our assistance.
With the contacts I have with them, the answers they give, the law I quote above based on their answers, it's fair to say, some of you are flat fucked up.
That comment (fucked up) is not directed specifically at KYshooter338 or anyone else here, but if you ignore the laws that are posted above, you are fucked up and I hope ATFE burns your ass into dust.
Re: trust question
I really wish you'd stop beating around the bush, and say what you really mean...
Cheers!
-- Lindy
I really wish you'd stop beating around the bush, and say what you really mean...
Cheers!
-- Lindy
