Gunsmithing Truth about blueprinting a Rem 700

[RyanScott]

I get that DESIGNING a rifle takes a master. Picking a barrel diameter and stock fill to balance, picking a chamber design. Then it goes to the machinist. You could build a fine English gun in serial production on machines, once the programs are written. Might need a gun plumber to rust blue it.

 

[TheChief]

Those are the things I'm talking about, and yes eventually it will be possibly to automate it all. I'm an instrument tech/electrician so I fully understand the capabilities of automation and machining. I work on some of the most advanced PLC's and automation out there. It's scary how precise and exact machines have become.

 

[badassgunworks]

I guess I would ask specifically what. What "hand element" makes that leap? The exception being any of the following:

Checkering
Ornate engraving
final sanding prior to finish application
Application of an oil finish to a stock

(With that, I'm betting that if given enough time and resources, these processes could be automated as well.)

If were talking fundamental machine work, I would sternly disagree. Only because I've proven it. The old school thought path of "I need to feel what the reamer is doing" is complete BS. If you screw up and blow up a tool or lock it up in the chamber, its going to be over with before you even realize there's been an accident. The signal from hand to brain to the foot used to stomp on the spindle brake just isn't fast enough.

Its when I realized this (two decades ago) that I literally said "fuck it, lets figure out how to automate it". I have zero regrets in that decision.

Stock work? I've been machining my own inlets since 2003. If curious, do your own research on what an LRI bedding job looks like. You judge for yourself. In 11 years of business I've yet to have one come back. We don't touch em with anything "hand worked". They come off the machine like that.

In reality, all your doing is replacing the file/dremel tool, whatever for a keyboard, mouse, and software. The brass ring is having the ability to use that stuff efficiently so that cash still circulates through your business. A steep and ambitious curve but one with reward if you persistent.

Finish works to wood exterior and metal work will never be automated to level of fine finish by hand unless a specialized cnc sander or finisher was designed Recognizing tooling marks scratches are done by human eye and can’t be seen by a mechine checkering is another difficult one it’s getting better but and in most cases perfect but it still does not look like hand checkering. The pride in high end guild grade work is not something that can be automated only closely copied and as you stated bank note engraving is another one getting better and looks very nice but still not the same None of this matters since it’s a dead market any way The high end grade rifles are being replaced by automation companies like Dakota arms 30,000 to 50,000 dollar rifles being made and sold for 10,000 there is no money for the time spent any longer in that market

 

[LRI]

Longrifles Inc., That tool you pass thru the receiver, how much does it change the diameter of the bore?

If you're talking about the hone, it depends on a couple of variables.

1. A SS, CS, or TI receiver where the action is not getting any kind of coating, we'll clean up the bore just to where it is round and free of taper. If you're going down the rabbit hole of "well the receiver can't be more than .#####" than the bolt, just save yourself the trouble. It is not nearly the big deal that some try to make it out to be. If it was, we'd all still be bushing bolts with shitbox sleeves and epoxy like guys were doing 20 or so years ago when it became a "thing". -The whole thing largely started with Jim Borden's creation of the "Borden Bumps" used on his actions and the Nesika products. Nothing wrong with it in a BR type environment. (clean, static, highly controlled) Most have moved away from it because of the potential problems that they can create.

2. Coatings such as Ceracote, it all depends on the color. Ceracote is not "one color sprays like another". The lighter earth tones such as Desert Sand goes on with a "Wagner power roller" when compared to something like Graphite Black. It just has to do with pigment saturation of the product.

So, you have to open stuff up more otherwise you end up with basically a square peg in a round hole. This is where 99.9% of the rants online can be traced back to. The parts need to be prepped accordingly well in advance of applying the coating. That solution cost me roughly $20,000.00 to do, but our comeback % dropped to maybe a .1 of a % after getting it sorted out. The trick is finding a honing system that'll allow you to qualify an interrupted bore. I had to have these things custom made. Not cheap, not easy, but for what we're trying to do, it's well worth it.

Hope this helps.

 

[LRI]

Finish works to wood exterior and metal work will never be automated to level of fine finish by hand unless a specialized cnc sander or finisher was designed Recognizing tooling marks scratches are done by human eye and can’t be seen by a mechine checkering is another difficult one it’s getting better but and in most cases perfect but it still does not look like hand checkering. The pride in high end guild grade work is not something that can be automated only closely copied and as you stated bank note engraving is another one getting better and looks very nice but still not the same None of this matters since it’s a dead market any way The high end grade rifles are being replaced by automation companies like Dakota arms 30,000 to 50,000 dollar rifles being made and sold for 10,000 there is no money for the time spent any longer in that market

I agree whole heartedly. In 2015 I took this to the highest ceiling I could achieve. I scanned, modeled, programmed, and machined a T5-A stock from scratch. Tom Manners blank as the master used to acquire data from, but it was not a digitized point cloud mass of shit that has been the industry norm for decades. That gun cost me over $50,000 to build. (2013 Sniper's Hide Cup Trophy Rifle, awarded to Jake Vibbert)

When it came off the machine it was ready for 320 grit sand paper. 13 hours of machine time in the mill. The sanding, as you mentioned, was still done by hand. However, the Ebony inlay in the forend was all automation. So was the prepreg carbon fiber bedding job. Engraving and other feel good wigits were also done via computer/machine.

I was once a department head at Dakota Arms and Nesika Bay Precision. I know exactly what level of effort goes into those rifles. It was the seed for me deciding to do the SHC gun in 2015.

Comparing those types of guns to what we see here though is truly apples and onions. As with anything, when price goes up for a given product, the number of clients willing to spend it goes down by about a factor of 3x. Few enjoy that level of disposable income.

 

[LRI]

There's more. . .

 

[LRI]

Finally, moving onto finishing. Rotten stone, oil, and a whole lotta elbow work.

 

[want2learn]

that's gorgeous

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Finally, moving onto finishing. Rotten stone, oil, and a whole lotta elbow work.

That is beautiful. I see that it is a thumbhole stock.

I used to hate thumbhole stocks because I thought they were kinda gimmicky and ugly. When I started looking at slow mo video of the way stocks flex under load, it clicked. Thumbholes are a logical solution to getting a natural grip angle while maintaining rigidity. My next stock will probably be a thumbhole.

 

[LRI]

That is beautiful. I see that it is a thumbhole stock.

I used to hate thumbhole stocks because I thought they were kinda gimmicky and ugly. When I started looking at slow mo video of the way stocks flex under load, it clicked. Thumbholes are a logical solution to getting a natural grip angle while maintaining rigidity. My next stock will probably be a thumbhole.

When selling Tom's T5A to people I get hit with that challenge frequently. My explanation is to think of it less as a thumbhole and more like a bridged vertical grip that promotes the correct wrist position for better isolation of the trigger finger muscle group.

 

[badassgunworks]

When selling Tom's T5A to people I get hit with that challenge frequently. My explanation is to think of it less as a thumbhole and more like a bridged vertical grip that promotes the correct wrist position for better isolation of the trigger finger muscle group.

Vertical grip stocks will reduce x-fer of recoil to grip so felt recoil to shoulder is reduced but grip angles on current manufactured stock are not optimum in cant angle to create a ergonomic wrist angle The only problem with them they suck for Carry in the field

 

[LRI]

Vertical grip stocks will reduce x-fer of recoil to grip so felt recoil to shoulder is reduced but grip angles on current manufactured stock are not optimum in cant angle to create a ergonomic wrist angle The only problem with them they suck for Carry in the field

Well. Anschutz uses them. I worked for them.
The US Palma Team uses them. I was once on it.
NRA Highpower. I used to shoot it.

A great deal of knowledge from folks far more qualified than me, passed on this information somewhere between 2 and 3 decades ago. All are either multiple Olympic(s) champions, national champions, or International medal holders, or held marquee positions at the highest levels of international shooting sports.

These people are all personal friends of mine, mentors, or folks that I've built guns for.


Lonnes Wigger 2x OGM
Marsha Beasley NCAA, University of W. Virginia SB coach
David Johnson , Former national team coach
Mat Emmons, 2x OGM
David Karcher, 2002 SR National Champion
Gene Rucks, USMC Rifle Team, 2003 US Palma Team
Jim Cook, USMC Rifle Team Captain, 2001
Sheri Ghallagher, 2003 International Palma World Champion and all around shooting bad ass.
Nancy Tompkins, Only woman in hisory to win National Highpower at Perry
Michelle Ghallagher, Name it, she's won it...


Basically, I disagree with your opinion.

 

[RTH1800]

A few thoughts.

How lucky are we to have @Terry Cross, @mgorden and Chad from LRI debating this on SH. Reminded me of a story about a kid who sat in a room with Ty Cobb and Ted Williams while they debated batting
strategy. ?

There is something intangible and delightful about a double sleeved R700 the way Greg Tannel or Mike Lau did them for me years ago.

I recall the Nesika actions that were so smooth and precise. Until they jammed up due to dust or ice getting inside them.

Jim Borden seems to have perfected the precise Nesika type action that still runs in most conditions.

Terry, where is my rifle? I was up to #4 on your list last time I checked 15 years ago? ?

 

[badassgunworks]

Well. Anschutz uses them. I worked for them.
The US Palma Team uses them. I was once on it.
NRA Highpower. I used to shoot it.

A great deal of knowledge from folks far more qualified than me, passed on this information somewhere between 2 and 3 decades ago. All are either multiple Olympic(s) champions, national champions, or International medal holders, or held marquee positions at the highest levels of international shooting sports.

These people are all personal friends of mine, mentors, or folks that I've built guns for.


Lonnes Wigger 2x OGM
Marsha Beasley NCAA, University of W. Virginia SB coach
David Johnson , Former national team coach
Mat Emmons, 2x OGM
David Karcher, 2002 SR National Champion
Gene Rucks, USMC Rifle Team, 2003 US Palma Team
Jim Cook, USMC Rifle Team Captain, 2001
Sheri Ghallagher, 2003 International Palma World Champion and all around shooting bad ass.
Nancy Tompkins, Only woman in hisory to win National Highpower at Perry
Michelle Ghallagher, Name it, she's won it...


Basically, I disagree with your opinion.

Re read my comment chad . The fact that you dis agree with my comment has ignored the obvious. the vast majority of the vertical grip stocks on the market are not designed properly that does not include proper designed ones and I never stated I don’t like them or own them or design and build them . And if you ever packed any vertical grip stock in the woods hiking several miles a day and holstered them in a backpack it’s one of the least desirable designs out. There are some huge advantages to a properly designed vertical grip stock. But 10 times the amount of records have been set held and broke with out vertical grips. Never have I desired to argue with you or any one My comments were not mentioned to discredit just simple other side of the coin view . Very nice build looks like great classic build quality With a modern design

 

[Edds]

........... the vast majority of the vertical grip stocks on the market are not designed properly ..................

I have never owned a vertical grip stock but I plan to buy one soon. Would you describe how a well designed one would differ from a McMillan Game Scout or Game Warden.