Trying diff load development methods - Need your input

[Singleshot]

Hey guys. Little background first. Been reloading for over 10 years. Shoot 100-600 yards. Don’t shoot in competitions. obsessed with small groups.

Process and Tools I use are pretty consistent across all calibers: wet tumble, FL size / bump back .003, trim/Debur/chamfer, uniform flash hole, anneal my cases, use standard Forster sizing dies, Forster micrometer seater, Hornady Concentricity gauge.

Normally when I do load development, my process is, I would do 3 shots each load tested, .005 off land, look at a set of 3 loads with the most consistent POI to one another, with acceptable grouping, then test those 3 loads again, sometimes with minor adjustments to OAL, but rarely needed. Have consistently achieve 1/4 to 1/2 MOA with it.

So, last month I decided to take it another notch up and pick up a LabRadar. Perhaps this may, or may not make a diff, but I want to take a more data centric approach to my process. Need your expertise on how I should look at this info, and how does that effect my process in load development.

***Ill share another post below with my recent 6.5 load (New to 6.5CM), data, and results. Any input you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Singleshot]

Ok here we go. Since my chicken scratch is ugly in the picture, I’ll post the results below. If you can kindly share what you would do next based on what you see here.

personally, I’m thinking to focus my efforts on load 5, 6, and 7 from this point on. Or based on data, would you go with just load #6?

6.5cm load
Powder: H4350
Brass - Hornady
Primer - Federal 210M
Bullets - ELDM 140gr
.005 off land

Load 1 to Load 8 from top left to right, and then the last two below it:

Load 1:
41.2gr / 2643 fps
ES 19 / SD 10.1
.375 MOA

Load 2:
41.5gr / 2666 fps
ES 33 / SD 16.3
.542 MOA

Load 3:
41.8gr / 2688 fps
ES 30 / SD 15
.541 MOA

Load 4:
42.1gr / 2695 fps
ES 2 / SD 1.5
.642 MOA

Load 5:
42.3gr / 2723 fps
ES 20 / SD 10.5
.511 MOA

Load 6:
42.5gr / 2736 fps
ES 8 / SD 4.2
.413 MOA

Load 7:
42.7gr / 2753 fps
ES 13 / SD 9.5
.368 MOA

Load 8:
42.9 / 2755 fps
ES 32 / SD 16
.890 MOA

 

[Dthomas3523]

If you’re always shooting in the same location (not traveling around), you can just find a load with the Labradar that has a consistently low ES and then tune it via seating depth to shoot bugholes. Can also add a tuner to barrel to dial it in even more. Especially for a single distance as you can utilize positive compensation.

Also, if you’re 600 and in, you ES won’t matter as much.

I’d focus on seating depth tuning far more than I would the chrono if I was going for tiny groups at relatively close range.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Ok here we go. Since my chicken scratch is ugly in the picture, I’ll post the results below. If you can kindly share what you would do next based on what you see here.

personally, I’m thinking to focus my efforts on load 5, 6, and 7 from this point on. Or based on data, would you go with just load #6?

6.5cm load
Powder: H4350
Brass - Hornady
Primer - Federal 210M
Bullets - ELDM 140gr
.005 off land

Load 1 to Load 8 from top left to right, and then the last two below it:

Load 1:
41.2gr / 2643 fps
ES 19 / SD 10.1
.375 MOA

Load 2:
41.5gr / 2666 fps
ES 33 / SD 16.3
.542 MOA

Load 3:
41.8gr / 2688 fps
ES 30 / SD 15
.541 MOA

Load 4:
42.1gr / 2695 fps
ES 2 / SD 1.5
.642 MOA

Load 5:
42.3gr / 2723 fps
ES 20 / SD 10.5
.511 MOA

Load 6:
42.5gr / 2736 fps
ES 8 / SD 4.2
.413 MOA

Load 7:
42.7gr / 2753 fps
ES 13 / SD 9.5
.368 MOA

Load 8:
42.9 / 2755 fps
ES 32 / SD 16
.890 MOA

I like load 7/8 are looking like a flat spot in velocity.

But I don’t like the ES/SD on load 8.

Honestly, I’d try it again with cci450 or br4 primers. See if you can get some more consistent numbers in your ignition/combustion stage.

Also, are you using the button in the die or a mandrel to set neck tension?

 

[Singleshot]

I like load 7/8 are looking like a flat spot in velocity.

But I don’t like the ES/SD on load 8.

Honestly, I’d try it again with cci450 or br4 primers. See if you can get some more consistent numbers in your ignition/combustion stage.

Also, are you using the button in the die or a mandrel to set neck tension?

thanks for your response / input!

I don’t travel far. Mostly between 2 ranges 100 miles apart. Elevation and temperature is about the same.

i do want to point out, the day I shot these groups, it was 103 degrees out there. I was under a shade, but was still burning hot.

I’m using the button. Although I have a concentricity gauge, I rarely, if ever, had to fix it. onsistently within .0015.

 

[Dthomas3523]

thanks for your response / input!

I don’t travel far. Mostly between 2 ranges 100 miles apart. Elevation and temperature is about the same.

i do want to point out, the day I shot these groups, it was 103 degrees out there. I was under a shade, but was still burning hot.

I’m using the button. Although I have a concentricity gauge, I rarely, if ever, had to fix it. onsistently within .0015.

Give a mandrel a shot. Your ES will probably come down a bit.

If you want .002 neck tension, order a .263 mandrel and a .262 pin gauge. Use the pin gauge to make sure you get the .002 under. If not, you might need a .2635 or .2625 mandrel depending on springback.

Same thing for .001 tension. Get a .264 mandrel and a .263 pin gauge.

Also, I wouldn’t get hung up on concentricity. The bullet can only be so misaligned once you chamber it. I haven’t been able to tell a difference in runout as high as .007/.008 in necked down virgin brass to <.001 runout in fires brass.

 

[Darkside-Six]

I agree with Dave. 7/8 looks like your flat spot which is nice over that .3 grains of difference. I would go back and load 5 round groups every .1 grain from 42.6-42.9 you may find a nice spot in the middle around 42.7-42.8. See if the numbers are good and then play with seating depth for fine tuning. I would also recommend using the mandrel as well. Good for consistency .

 

[b2lee]

^^^^ yea...but....what scale are you using to weigh your powders? Kinda silly to load in .1 increments if your scale isn't accurate enough to do it.

 

[Singleshot]

Thanks again guys for your help on better understand / leverage this dataI’ll give the mandrel a shot. Any recommendations?

As for scale, I have a Hornady Auto Charge. Although I never auto charge. I hand scoop and use the scale to weigh.

Quick question on 7/8 being the ones to explore. I’m assuming you’re looking at the consistency of velocity?

Here the shot data for each shot in that string. Does this change anything?

Load 5:
42.3gr / 2723 fps (2726, 2711, 2731)
ES 20 / SD 10.5
.511 MOA

Load 6:
42.5gr / 2736 fps (2741, 2735, 2733)
ES 8 / SD 4.2
.413 MOA

Load 7:
42.7gr / 2753 fps (2747, 2760, xxx I guess last shot did not register)
ES 13 / SD 9.5
.368 MOA

Load 8:
42.9 / 2755 fps (2741, 2773, 2752)
ES 32 / SD 16
.890 MOA

 

[Dthomas3523]

So, here’s what I look for in chrono data, ideally:

A .3 grain node where average velocity is within 10 fps each way.

All three charges <10sd and <20es

For example:

30.0 = 2550fps
30.1 = 2560fps
30.2 = 2570fps

Then I’m loading 30.1 and worst case my velocity should stay 2540 to 2580.

I’d like to see better. But this is acceptable. For example, my 6x47:

35.0 = 2955 w/12 es
35.2 = 2956 w/4 es

I load 35.1 and worst case is I’m between 2949-2960 fps. Theoretically speaking. Even if I’m 2940-2970......I’m in great shape at distance.

After that, I can tune via seating depth. I tune seating depth @100yds as the only reason it won’t hold at distance is because of shooter error or BC variance from bullet to bullet. And I shoot random distances. If I shot all at 600 or 1k, I’d be tuning seating depth at those distances to work on positive compensation.


If I were you, I’d move to using a mandrel. Then I’d look into an scale like and fx120. Doesn’t sound like you’re loading in bulk. So no need for an auto trickler. Just do it by hand. But a scale that is good to .02 is what you want for this......ideally.

 

[Singleshot]

$700 scale. I can already imagine my wife giving me the longest silent stare from the shock that a scale can cost $700, and then suggest to me “what’s wrong with using a food scale? Why do we need a $700 scale”? But, I’m gonna get one. Lol.

I’ve always enjoy the process of reloading. Maybe because it fits and satisfies my OCD tendencies. With this new info, now I can’t ignore it lol. It’s going to fun, especially if it leads to better results.

Thanks again fellas. appreciate the help here.

 

[kindabitey]

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Also, using a mandrel for sizing necks greatly improved my SD/ES.

 

[Steel head]

I do as DT does
Find a speed node and tune with jump.


The mandrel thing is real.
I use a lee collet and it like the mandrel are better than the standard die approach in my opinion.

I get good results with the Hornandy auto throw but
I have my brass prep and what to look for down pretty well now after years of being clueless and that’s important if your trying to get and interpret Speed data.

 

[Lunchbox27]

Others have already dropped knowledge bombs, so I’ll just share my experience and recommendations.

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All my dies have bushings. I remove the expander, and choose a bushing that will put my neck tension 4 thousands under where I want my desired bullet tension to be. Then, I run it through the mandrel with the neck arbor bringing it up another 2 thousands.

The end result is lowered ES/SD, through repeated consistent neck tension/concentricity. You will actually feel consistent seating each time now.

 

[Singleshot]

any other changes I should alter in my prepping process besides taking the expander ball out Using a mandrel?

 

[Lunchbox27]

Annealing, if you don’t already do so.

 

[Singleshot]

already anneal .

 

[Singleshot]

Quick question. When I measure the ID of my brass, and is consistently .002, in this case do I still need a mandrel?

I am using Forster standard FL sizing for with expander ball. After measuring it seems my ID/ neck tension is consistently .002.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Quick question. When I measure the ID of my brass, and is consistently .002, in this case do I still need a mandrel?

I am using Forster standard FL sizing for with expander ball. After measuring it seems my ID/ neck tension is consistently .002.

Mandrel will get is more uniform on the ID.

Also, if you’re measuring with calipers, you’re not using the best tool to measure the ID. Either a pin gauge or a combination of outside/inside mics to get the OD and neck wall to get an exact measurement.

I prefer pin gauges as it’s quicker and full proof.

 

[fx77]

 

[Singleshot]

Awesome video and chart that came with it. VERY helpful. Thank you

 

[Singleshot]

Hi all, I want to thank everyone for taking their time to chime in on this thread, and provide knowledge / assistance.

In the last 2 weeks, I started prepping using mandrels, as a few here had suggested.

Based on the data collected last time, I loaded 3 strings from 42.1 to 42.7. 42.1 did not record. Missed a shot on 42.7. All else is the same. Seating depth and components.

Let me know your thoughts gents. I’m leaning to 42.5 as my load to start testing seating depth to tune my groups. These are seated .005 off land, and got .413 and .455 respectively in group size.


***Btw, I purchased a set of titanium nitride and also black nitride 6.5 and also .30 mandrel. I wanted to see the diff. Very minor, but it’s there, kind of.

As a token of my appreciation, I would like to offer up the set of 6.5 and .30 for free to any member here that may need it / want to give mandrels a try.