Trying to understand runout...

[Sgt_Jamez]

Question 1... How much is too much?

Question 2... The total amount of runout I'm measuring is about .0035". I've read you divide that in half for +\- .00175". Is this correct?

I'm not neck turning or sorting. This is just fired and loaded 6.5x47 Lapua brass with 123gr AMAX slugs. Runout measured on the neck and at the ogive are about the same.

Question 3... My goal is to develop a 600 yard .5 MOA load. Is my runout as it stands going to be a prohibitive issue?

Thanks all!

 

[jwp6114]

1, .003 max
2, no, if you measure .0035 that's what it is
3, IMHO most important factors in accuracy for long range are as follows, not in any sequence, all important.
1, consistent neck tension (anneal every other shot, inconsistent neck tension = inconsistent pressures and MV's = more vertical spread)
2, low run out (helps the projectile enter lands and grooves straight)
3, low ES, (makes for tight vertical spread)
4, proper or slightly over twist your bullets.

PM me and I'll share a few trade secrets in lowering run out and give you a few tips on load development.

Kudo's for your pursuit for accuracy.

 

[justinbaker]

1, .003 max
2, no, if you measure .0035 that's what it is
3, IMHO most important factors in accuracy for long range are as follows, not in any sequence, all important.
1, consistent neck tension (anneal every other shot, inconsistent neck tension = inconsistent pressures and MV's = more vertical spread)
2, low run out (helps the projectile enter lands and grooves straight)
3, low ES, (makes for tight vertical spread)
4, proper or slightly over twist your bullets.

PM me and I'll share a few trade secrets in lowering run out and give you a few tips on load development.

Kudo's for your pursuit for accuracy.

Why not just post them here

 

[jwp6114]

Google "trade secrets"... I usual capitalize on my knowledge.. A PM gets it to u for free... Or you can travel to GA and attend one of my advanced reloading technique classes. Most of the knowledge you seek is already out there, you just have to know what to look for. There's just not to many articles that explain it ALL and in laymen's terms.

I have spent over 11 years thousands of dollars paying for my knowledge... Some that was passed to me from long ago BR shooters... I get tired of picking up range fee's, gas, or buying dinner to spend a day shooting or reloading with a few folks that have been in the long range game over 30 years just to shout it out in a thread...

And if you can't respect that then good luck on your journey.

 

[jwp6114]

Once you set an accuracy goal for your rifle, there are varying levels of hand loading and marksmanship skills needed to reach some of those goals...

 

[bjay]

Google "trade secrets"... I usual capitalize on my knowledge.. A PM gets it to u for free... Or you can travel to GA and attend one of my advanced reloading technique classes. Most of the knowledge you seek is already out there, you just have to know what to look for. There's just not to many articles that explain it ALL and in laymen's terms.

I have spent over 11 years thousands of dollars paying for my knowledge... Some that was passed to me from long ago BR shooters... I get tired of picking up range fee's, gas, or buying dinner to spend a day shooting or reloading with a few folks that have been in the long range game over 30 years just to shout it out in a thread...

And if you can't respect that then good luck on your journey.

Im interested.. u can pm me tnx

 

[jwp6114]

Replied to all PM's...
For reference most of my hands on knowledge Is with 308 223, and 243 but most of the info cary's over to some of the larger cases.
Soon to dive into 300wm. Not much need for larger on the east coast.

 

[jwp6114]

Have replied to about 9 PM's, be patient, I will contact each of you.

Jake.

 

[kish]

Google "trade secrets"... I usual capitalize on my knowledge.. A PM gets it to u for free... Or you can travel to GA and attend one of my advanced reloading technique classes. Most of the knowledge you seek is already out there, you just have to know what to look for. There's just not to many articles that explain it ALL and in laymen's terms.

I have spent over 11 years thousands of dollars paying for my knowledge... Some that was passed to me from long ago BR shooters... I get tired of picking up range fee's, gas, or buying dinner to spend a day shooting or reloading with a few folks that have been in the long range game over 30 years just to shout it out in a thread...

And if you can't respect that then good luck on your journey.

could you PM me also?

I am new to long range shooting and trying to learn

thanks

 

[jetsurgeon]

Jake,

Can you send the information my way as well?

Thanks!
Jeff

 

[Smithcollector]

The only thing I have personally done to address runout is to switch to Redding bushing / competition dies, which using Lapua brass has pretty much eliminated runout for me. I am not sure at 600 yards that 0.0035" is going to hold you up from 0.5 MOA; other things like seating depth, consistency of powder charge, and your technique will likely have a greater impact than a runout factor that right now for you is better than a lot of factory ammunition I've tested.

Good luck, I love tinkering with loads, almost (but not quite) as much fun as shooting itself!

 

[jwp6114]

The long range equation will be greatly simplified by removing as many variables as possible...

I will start calling you guys tomorrow morning.

 

[Killshot44]

This is just fired and loaded 6.5x47 Lapua brass with 123gr AMAX slugs. Runout measured on the neck and at the ogive are about the same.

You've got .003" TIR on fired cases? That is not good.
It is the case resizing and bullet seating that impart "runout", they should come out of a chamber perfectly concentric*

As Jakes' 1st reply states, there are several factors that weigh on 600yd accuracy. TIR is but one of them.

*ETA the case will only be perfectly concentric IF the caseneck wall thickness is absolutely uniform...

 

[Creature]

I've heard that partially seating a bullet and then backing it out of the die, rotating the round 180 degrees, and then seating it the rest of the way will help with runout. I'm not entirely sure if this is the case but I have always done it and have had pretty good luck.

 

[JGorski]

Loaded 15 6Creed this afternoon, and Im going to share my secret now.

Just partially seat the bullet, turn the case a 1/4 turn, seat the bullet a small amount again, turn the case a 1/4 turn again, you'll probably end up turning the case about 5-6 times as you seat the bullet. I had 1 of the 15 to be .0035' out, the rest were no more than .002" out.

 

[lte82]

If you are starting with a perfectly concentric piece of brass, the max runout you can get when seating the bullet is equal to the neck tension. Less neck tension = less possible runout.

Other than neck tension, brass quality makes the biggest difference from my little experience.

I've done the bullet spin thing, and it works to some extent, but not always.

 

[P7id10t]

Loaded 15 6Creed this afternoon, and Im going to share my secret now.

Just partially seat the bullet, turn the case a 1/4 turn, seat the bullet a small amount again, turn the case a 1/4 turn again, you'll probably end up turning the case about 5-6 times as you seat the bullet. I had 1 of the 15 to be .0035' out, the rest were no more than .002" out.

That's just plain, good technique. Kinda like bolting a head back onto an engine. Distribute the forces for optimal alignment.

 

[Killshot44]

If you are starting with a perfectly concentric piece of brass, the max runout you can get when seating the bullet is equal to the neck tension. Less neck tension = less possible runout.

Not so. A sizing die that is misaligned, a bent decapping stem (with the ball attached), a poor-fitting shellholder or a junk press can ALL impart TIR much greater than the neck tension.

 

[lte82]

Not so. A sizing die that is misaligned, a bent decapping stem (with the ball attached), a poor-fitting shellholder or a junk press can ALL impart TIR much greater than the neck tension.

I'm not questioning that one bit.

I'm just saying that if the brass is perfectly concentric prior to seating the bullet (which means the sizing die, decapping stem, shellholder, and press all did their job perfectly), the maximum runout that can occur from seating the bullet non-concentrically is equal to the neck tension.

And I know all about a bent decapping pins causing issues... I let my dad borrow my 308 dies a few weeks ago, and when I got them back, I loaded up some ammo and had major runout issues. Some were so bad that they wouldn't chamber. After checking out the sizing die, I found the decapping pin was off center by .025. Apparently he had a stuck case and he pried on the decapping pin to get it out bending it just enough to cause an issue. Luckily I only loaded about 50 rounds like that, and only 5 or so failed to chamber. The ones that fired just didn't group too well.

 

[RobertB]

I use the best brass I can, I use a harrels press and Redding S type sizers with the expander out of it. And I also use a Wilson Chamber type seater. I have had great luck with this gear so far. When I started reloading all I had in my head was runout (come to find out there are other things believe it or now) and I thought these were the best components to take care of that.

Just wanted to share.

Good luck and hope you meet your goal.

 

[Sgt_Jamez]

I am using the Redding Type S bushing neck sizer die. I will check by brass for runout after firing to see if the brass is starting with runout or its being induced along the way. I've begun to look at runout in the past and it just seemed beyond my ability to control. But at the time (and with a different rifle) the brass was straight coming from the rifle but sizing gave it runout. I've suspected my Rock Chucker press but didn't know how to isolate the cause or how to remedy. So next time I have fired brass I'll pay closer attention. As an aside, my sizer die has the free floating carbide expander ball installed.

I decap with a Lee universal decap per prior to stainless steel wet tumble. And the brass may be overdue for annealing as its one its 3rd loading. I have a bench source annealer so I just need to fire that up.

If the cause is the press ram, can that be fixed or does that require replacement?

 

[jwp6114]

Replied to all PM's, spoke with a few of you already...

 

[Sgt_Jamez]

Just wanted to throw a quick thanks out to Jake - jwp6114. I spent a while talking with him this morning. He's a very knowledgable guy with a ton of useful info. I would definitely recommend him for anyone looking to tighten up their reloading skills. Jake... Once again, thanks for taking the time to call me. I really appreciate your info and insights!

 

[greggrissom]

Could I get this information also? Just fixing to start long range reloading and need good solid info to get going in the right direction. Heck I don't even know what dies to go with.

 

[jwp6114]

Greggrissom, and anyone else interested... PM me your contact pnone number and day/times you can take a lengthy call... (20-40min) depending on your current exeperiance...

 

[jwp6114]

Thanks to jwp6114!

I stop short of an Arbor press, but have loaded a few rounds using many of the techniques that jwp6114 (Jake) talked about. Enough of them to know that what he was suggesting isn't revolutionary or more importantly NOT BS. So much BS out in the reloading world, it can be really hard for those seeking to start reloading, and those of us wanting to learn more.

Traditionally, I basically work a ladder, then reload a fine load variation for accuracy and then maybe play with the seating (but it's kinda starting over). Anyway, one of the take aways I am steeling from his procedures, will save me an additional range trip and hundreds in time and ammo.

Thank you for that Jake -- Brilliant suggestion!

Attached are few pics from my reloading bench, more so you'll see that I am not totally blowing smoke.

Picture 1 Presses: Dillon for Blasting and Forster Co-ax for precision
Picture 2 Brass prep: tools ( I certainly have way more but this is kinda what I use on a frequent basis)
Picture 3 Powder filling: Beam scale is a Scott Parker Tuned Layman (very nice) -
(no idea why my iPhone makes my bench took bent and the Redding BR3 look like it is about to fall over)


Thanks Again,

Jim

You have the tools...

you'll be printing sub MOA groups at 1000 in no time...

5 @ 1000, 10" bull

 

[jwp6114]

Everyone needs to understand that run-out is just a small factor in the long range accuracy equasion... please seek education on load development, annealing, bullet sorting, bullet trim and pointing, fundamentals of marksmanship, and wind calling...
set accuracy goals for your self and then expand your knowledge if you need to.

no one said its easy... and targets dont lie.
Jake,

 

[bjay]

I thought everything ive learn on the net about reloading is everything i need to know till cp rang today.. jake the samaritan i just tried those basics tweak you gave and dang!!! Out of 15 brass i got only only one .003 and one 004 rest is 0-.0025 contricity.. tnx brother. Ill be saving your number youll be hearing more question from me take care

 

[JGorski]

Jake, give us some details on that rifle you're holding? Please.

 

[jwp6114]

Jake, give us some details on that rifle you're holding? Please.

rem 700, trued action, 28" kreiger 4 groove hvy vmnt contour 6mm chambered in 243AI, Vail break, Schillen trigger, B&C tactical medalist glass bedded, CDI botom metal, BO bolt knob, NF 20 MOA base, NF 8-32x56 HS ZS NP-R1.

It loves 6mm berger hybrids (trimmed and pointed) and H4831SC...

all smith work done by Doyle Englin "The Wizard" of Dixie guns in Winder GA.

 

[JGorski]

Jake, Whats the best it shot at 300yds, I need to compare with the group I got on sunday, you know, for shits and giggles, LOL

 

[jwp6114]

Jake, Whats the best it shot at 300yds, I need to compare with the group I got on sunday, you know, for shits and giggles, LOL

honestly, i cant say that i have grouped it at 300... wast of bullets i suppose... i built it to compete at he 600, 800, 900, 1000 yard range at Hard Rock in AL. next time i get a chance i will throw up some paper at 300...

 

[JGorski]

My 6 Creed was built for the same thing, but we cant practice on the 600yd range, have to wait til game day to do that. So hows it shoot at 600yds, best group?

 

[jwp6114]

My 6 Creed was built for the same thing, but we cant practice on the 600yd range, have to wait til game day to do that. So hows it shoot at 600yds, best group?

heres 3 @ 600...


that was before i started trimming and pointing i think...

another 3 at 600...

 

[JGorski]

heres 3 @ 600...


that was before i started trimming and pointing i think...

another 3 at 600...

Nice shooting! Might as well show you what I shot on sunday, its my best MOA group to date, .229moa, though I did shoot a .217@100yds with my 6mmREM back a few years. Shot the first group with 42.2grs H4350 but damn that high flyer there. I wont take any or much of the credit, the rifle did all the work, all I did was align the sights and pull the trigger.

 

[Smackdwn54]

You guys will have to e-mail jake, [email protected] for further info, he's serving a 30 day ban as of now...

 

[josh8811]

jwp6114

I read through this post where you offered some useful information for achieving accurate reloads. I'm a total newb, but I am a nerd and I will read everything I can get my hands on.

I'm looking to load for .223 and .308

I don't expect you to take a lot of time writing anything special for me, but If you can cut and paste what you wrote to the others and send it to me that would be awesome..

It's cool your gunsmith is from Winder GA of all places. I grew up there. I've not lived there in 12 years or so, since leaving home for the military. That makes two reputable gun builders in Winder...

Thanks in advance for your time and happy shooting!!!

Sincerely,

Josh Moore

 

[MBC223]

You guys will have to e-mail jake via [email protected] for further info, he's serving a 30 day ban as of a few days ago.

 

[JGorski]

You guys will have to e-mail jake via [email protected] for further info, he's serving a 30 day ban as of a few days ago.

WHAT!! He was just on yesterday, you know what the ban was for?

 

[bjay]

WHAT!! He was just on yesterday, you know what the ban was for?

I just txted jake ... yes he did get banned 30 days

 

[No1]

I just finished a lengthy phone call with Jake and received some excellent insite on component prep, equipment setup and load development. I've only been here a short time and see that this is an excellent forum with many members willing to help each other out. Today, Jake exemplified that attitude above and beyond! Jake, once again thank you very much for your time and knowledge today.

 

[dlouie87]

Hello jwp6114,

Can you pm me as well? Thank you for offering your knowledge.

 

[dpilot83]

Google "trade secrets"... I usual capitalize on my knowledge.. A PM gets it to u for free... Or you can travel to GA and attend one of my advanced reloading technique classes. Most of the knowledge you seek is already out there, you just have to know what to look for. There's just not to many articles that explain it ALL and in laymen's terms.

I have spent over 11 years thousands of dollars paying for my knowledge... Some that was passed to me from long ago BR shooters... I get tired of picking up range fee's, gas, or buying dinner to spend a day shooting or reloading with a few folks that have been in the long range game over 30 years just to shout it out in a thread...

And if you can't respect that then good luck on your journey.

I wish you were closer. I would love to attend a class like that. What does that sort of thing cost? I wonder how I would find out about such a thing that's closer to me?

 

[dpilot83]

I wish you were closer. I would love to attend a class like that. What does that sort of thing cost? I wonder how I would find out about such a thing that's closer to me?

After reading the rest of the thread, I see that I shouldn't expect an answer for awhile.

 

[TheGonz]

For whatever reason jake got banned is beyond me, but I have to say that the 10 mins I spent talking to him about the knowledge was easily worth a year of trial and error of learning on my own. I for one would definitely pay money for a class, hands down. I hope that the mods can show a little leniency. As long as he doesn't kick my dog I will think he's still a good guy.

 

[P7id10t]

Rules is rules. Sometimes unwritten, sometimes ambiguous. However, cross them (whatever they were here) and the hammer comes down.

 

[MajorHeadTrauma]

Hi All.

I spoke to Jeff for over an hour and a half this afternoon. I should clarify, we spoke and I took notes. He was extremely helpful. We covered resizing, seating, head space, run out, Obamacare, rifle cleaning, neck turning, annealing, tools, presses, load development, and more. We really didn't talk about Obamacare. I just wrote that to see if you were paying attention.

Drop him an email. He will respond. Honestly, I think he misses us while he is grounded. But, he will be sprung free on the 28th.

Thanks again Jake,

MajorHeadTrauma

 

[MajorHeadTrauma]

Bummer jwp6114 might have run into problems. I don't know so I do not want to spread an untruth. One of the process things we were discussing, had very little to do with reloading, but streamlining the load tests to save range time and ammo AND HAND LOADING TIME =$$ SAVINGS..

It seems the neck tension or at least the road to minimizing the variables, my process seemed to jive OK with his dialog. I am not saying that I am good, bad or know EXACTLY what he is really suggesting in true terms of turning. BUT; our conversation seemed we were somewhat in alinement with how to get there.

OK, cutting to the chase my friend in Georgia, an X-spooke, very good shot, but back into the precision game after a nap, seems to put fancy annealing machines (something for his volume, he can easily do by hand) ahead of neck tuning. So while I was prepping a new batch of Lapua, I garbed my iPhone in one hand, and attempted prep a neck in the other so he could see just how easy it is to achieve good results.

21st Century Neck Turning Lathe concentricity and neck thickness measured - YouTube

It wasn't meant for this forum, or to share with anyone but my friend - so please understand.

These cases after being size generally vary <.0005 in gauge thickness and about .0005 runout. Remember, that is 4 decimal places! After loading, the run out does increase slightly - but this is my method (borrowed some time ago from others).

BTW The Lapua, brass was weighed BEFORE creating batches. The action is a Defiance Deviant - Krieger 5R M24 26" with JEC brake

Thanks! That is a great video!

 

[mtmander]

I want to thank Jake - jwp6114 for the call and the information. I appreciate his willingness to share information and his experience on what works. It is a benefit to me to get a head start on how to improve my groups.

 

[NoahbodyImportant]

I also want to thank Jake- jwp6114 for the call and information. I talked with him this evening for quite awhile. I received some great information. I look forward in making these changes and tightening my group size.

I will post my range report later.

He can be reached at [email protected]. He is serving a 30 day forum ban =(

Thanks Jake!