Tumbling loaded rounds to clean sizing lubricant

bohem

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I've heard very negative things can happen when you tumble loaded rounds. Not from them "going off" in the tumbler, but because the tumbling action can act as a mill and change the powder, instead of a rod powder you can end up with a fine ball dust powder adn the burn rate is extremely high.

It doesn't entirely make sense from an engineering point, especially if it's only being tumbled for an hour or two (think, hiking all day with ammo in your pack) but I never bothered to test it to find out. I've just been wiping things down after I loaded them.

I don't tumble sized brass because corn cob gets stuck in the flash hole and if you prime first, then tumble you get crap stuck in teh primer.

I have a pocket tool that I just twist in the primer pocket to clean the black soot and residue before sizing.

Thoughts?
 
Re: Tumbling loaded rounds to clean sizing lubricant

Nothing wrong with tumbling loaded ammo, what do you think happens to factory ammo durring delivery/shipping to distributors and dealers.
 
Re: Tumbling loaded rounds to clean sizing lubricant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nothing wrong with tumbling loaded ammo, what do you think happens to factory ammo durring delivery/shipping to distributors and dealers. </div></div>

Exactly what I was thinking, I figured it was some "expert" range advice that I was told when I was about 18 years old. Along with some other advice such as "you can't possibly neck a 30-06 down to 22 caliber unless you want to blow the gun sky high"...
 
Re: Tumbling loaded rounds to clean sizing lubricant

The jarring they would suffer in a pack or in shipping is nothing compred to what they suffer in the tumbler, nowhere near.
I would avoid tumbling for both reasons, powder breakdown and possible detonation. Toss a bag of media and dirty brass in the trunk of your car for a week and I bet the brass is still dirty as hell. I bet a full year in the average trunk would not get them clean.

Cleaning the primer pocket is not mandatory, but can help make for more consistent ammo. I have skipped it with no problems.

I often load my ammo on a progressive, and setting up a die without a sizing bushing but with the depriming pin does a nice job of removing flash-hole debris before priming.
 
Re: Tumbling loaded rounds to clean sizing lubricant

Until recently I didn't have a primer pocket cleaner, so the first 10k rounds that I loaded all had dirty pockets. I'm not too concerned about that, it's just a pain in the neck using a toothpick to push the corncob out, and I don't have bushing dies, so I'd have to readjust my dies each time. I was hoping to avoid that.

Are you talking about detonation inside the tumbler? That's something I can't agree with, not with the forces needed to snap a primer vs. what you get simply vibrating cases around.
 
Re: Tumbling loaded rounds to clean sizing lubricant

i do it all the time. in fact i have a batch of ammo in my tumbler right now. it gets the sizing lube off and cleans them up. i don't do it for more than an hour.

i use Walnut to clean up empty brass, and corncob to clean up loaded ammo. corncob is more absorbant.

done it this way for years with nary a hiccup.
 
Re: Tumbling loaded rounds to clean sizing lubricant

Raf, you do realize that they tumble factory ammo after its been loaded at the factory to clean off the lube and give it a final shine right? Winchester being one of the ones i know for sure that tumbles after loading.
 
Re: Tumbling loaded rounds to clean sizing lubricant

No problem with the disagreement.
I didn't see anyone post a scientific study so we are all spouting opinion anyway. Detonation is something I will never worry about since the argument that the powder could be compromised is enough to keep me from doing it.
 
Re: Tumbling loaded rounds to clean sizing lubricant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Raf, you do realize that they tumble factory ammo after its been loaded at the factory to clean off the lube and give it a final shine right? Winchester being one of the ones i know for sure that tumbles after loading. </div></div>
No, sir. Never heard that before.
If this occurs, I would like to know the conditions: round proximity, media, force, and duration.

I gave my opinion... and will certainly buck the argument that shipping or riding in a pack can generate anywhere near the forces the average tumbler will generate.
 
Re: Tumbling loaded rounds to clean sizing lubricant

I wouldn't. No criticism, I just think I can get the rounds clean enough wth a cloth and alcohol, and not have to consider questions like this.
 
Re: Tumbling loaded rounds to clean sizing lubricant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No problem with the disagreement.
I didn't see anyone post a scientific study so we are all spouting opinion anyway. Detonation is something I will never worry about since the argument that the powder could be compromised is enough to keep me from doing it. </div></div>

IIRC, someone did do a test to see if there was powder breakdown from tumbling. I cant for the life of me remember where I read the report, but what he did was load 40 rounds of precision ammo, all things equal, but he tumbled 20 rounds of it for 2 hours and hit the range with a chrono. There was no difference between them.
 
Re: Tumbling loaded rounds to clean sizing lubricant

The detonation thing in a tumbler doesn't scare me, just from doing a SWAG on what's involved with a primer strike ignition inside a tumbler it won't work.

The milling of the powder made me wonder and scared me enough to stop from doing it. I wiped down all my ammo with a cloth dabbed in alcohol for years now, I was wondering about a faster way since so many people have mentioned tumbling loaded.

I wasn't aware that winchester tumbled the loaded stuff, I was planning to do it for a short period like an hour at most, but figured I'd ask. Thanks for the various ideas, some of which I hadn't considered before.

I would like to see that tumbled vs. untumbled report if someone digs it up.
 
Re: Tumbling loaded rounds to clean sizing lubricant

No problem on that either.
I won't be getting upset about what you gent's do, but I don't have a need to tumble loaded cases and will remain in my camp until I obtain a good reason to do so, and some good evidence it is practical.
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We are cool.
 
Re: Tumbling loaded rounds to clean sizing lubricant

I wasnt trying to convince you to tumble Raf, just passing along info that I found when I was wondering about that same question.

I myself have tumbled loaded ammo very little. I always tumble brass after its been sized to clean the lube off and give it a final shine before i load them. But I would not hesitate to tumble if I needed to.

No hard feelings on either side Raf, just sharing info
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Re: Tumbling loaded rounds to clean sizing lubricant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Duckzeus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">black hills is tumbled post loading too, you'll find media in the hollowpoints all the time</div></div>

It was my understanding that Sierra tumbles thier bullets to get their final luster...
 
Re: Tumbling loaded rounds to clean sizing lubricant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...............
No hard feelings on either side Raf, just sharing info
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</div></div>
Good discussion. No complaints here.
I figure most here keep things pretty safe. Bad choice of hobbies to have if we don't.
laugh.gif
 
Re: Tumbling loaded rounds to clean sizing lubricant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...............
No hard feelings on either side Raf, just sharing info
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</div></div>
Good discussion. No complaints here.
I figure most here keep things pretty safe. Bad choice of hobbies to have if we don't.
laugh.gif
</div></div>

+1, But this stopped being a hobby after my 8th firearm purchase in less than 3 months. (when I first started that is) Its worse than crack!
 
Re: Tumbling loaded rounds to clean sizing lubricant

After the brass is sized is when I tumble it. As for the media in the primer pocket and flash hole, I use a depriming pin from a Lee Loader to clean it out.
I don't KNOW if there is a real chance of detonation in a tumbler but I do think there is a chance of breaking up the powder (especially if the powder is not new) if it is tumbled. Since smaller particules would burn faster that would not be good.
 
Re: Tumbling loaded rounds to clean sizing lubricant

the only issues i could find via google involved PROLONGED tumbling. here is a quote i found in google hit #1 when i input "tumbling loaded ammunition"

"Our police range which is open to the public, and sells its
reloaded ammo to that same public, has for at least 20 years used
a regular cement mixer to tumble the loaded ammo to remove resiz-
ing lube. The media used is ground corn cobs and mineral spirits
which shines the brass like a mirror"

i find that 20-30 minutes is plenty. i already have the brass polished in walnut, so the corncob is just to clean off the lube.

but there is plenty of reading if you google "tumble loaded ammuntion" but i have not found where it caused a single problem.

basically don't do it if you don't want to. but if you do, don't do it too long.
 
Re: Tumbling loaded rounds to clean sizing lubricant

Dick Whiting tumbled (vibratory tumbler) loaded 223 rounds for time increments up to and including 7 continuous days. He then shot the ammo for group and chrono'd for velocity. His work deduced that tumbling loaded rounds had zero impact on velocity, pressure, and accuracy.

10-20 minutes in walnut will remove most lubes.
 
Re: Tumbling loaded rounds to clean sizing lubricant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Damn! You must be a wealthy man! </div></div>

Dont I wish man!!!! I just didnt have kids or a wife back then!!!!!!
 
Re: Tumbling loaded rounds to clean sizing lubricant

You can call him yourself Bob. Real approachable guy. I can PM you his number/email if you want.

He is the guy behind the West Virginia junior HP program, NRA official, NRA rules committee member, has a business processing 223 brass (same guy that is supposed to be inventing a new trimmer).
 
Re: Tumbling loaded rounds to clean sizing lubricant

Well that's really interesting. I'm still gonna stick with the cloth and alky, though. So, maybe I'm a Neanderthal... At least we know now, the Neanderthals' disappearance wasn't because they tumbled their rounds...
 
Re: Tumbling loaded rounds to clean sizing lubricant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well that's really interesting. I'm still gonna stick with the cloth and alky, though. So, maybe I'm a Neanderthal... At least we know now, the Neanderthals' disappearance wasn't because they tumbled their rounds...</div></div>

Neanderthal Extinction Pieced Together
Discovery Channel ^ | 1/27/04 | Jennifer Viegas

Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2004 4:31:28 PM by LibWhacker


In a prehistoric battle for survival, Neanderthals had to compete against modern humans and were wiped off the face of the Earth, according to a new study on life in Europe from 60,000 to 25,000 years ago.

The findings, compiled by 30 scientists, were based on extensive data from sediment cores, archaeological artifacts such as fossils and tools, radiometric dating, and climate models. The collected information was part of a project known as Stage 3, which refers to the time period analyzed.

The number three also seems significant in terms of why the Neanderthals became extinct. One of the scientists involved in the research told Discovery News that a combination of three factors did the Neanderthals in.

"My general take on Neanderthal extinction was that they were in competition with anatomically modern humans at a time when there was increasing severe cold stress that was not only affecting them, but also the food resources, on wich they relied <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000"> and possibly sustaining methods such as cloth and alchohol to celan their brass casings </span></span></span> ," said Leslie Aiello, head of the University College London Graduate School, and an expert on Neanderthal response to weather.

Neanderthals appear to have tolerated temperatures as cold as zero degrees Fahrenheit, but during the last ice age, winter temperatures dipped to well below freezing. In order to cope, Neanderthals would have needed a lot more food than they were used to obtaining in winter.

"The costs of maintaining internal heat production at the required levels would have only been possible if Neanderthals were able to sustain a correspondingly high level of dietary energy intake," explained Aiello, adding that anatomically modern humans were better at dealing with the cold.

Early Homo sapiens, such as a group called the Gravettians that arose in Europe before the Neanderthals became extinct around 30,000 years ago, were loaded with the latest in prehistoric high tech.

They wore warm clothing made of fur and woven materials, lived in enclosed dwellings, and used effective weapons to ensnare animals and fish.

Paul Pettitt, a Neanderthal expert at the University of Sheffield who agrees with the new study findings, said, "(Gravettian) toolkits reveal a very sophisticated range of weaponry."

He said Neanderthals used spears that required close range contact with their prey, such as hyenas. Neanderthals probably thrust spears, like bayonets, into animals. Gravettians were better equipped.

"Far from general purpose spears deployed in the hand, we now see specialist projectile weapons (javelins) perhaps thrown with the aid of spearthrowers to increase effective range," Pettitt told Discovery News.

With such technologies, our ancestors won the prehistoric battle for survival.

While some researchers theorize that Neanderthals also are related to humans, yet another study, published in the current Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, claims that the skulls of Neanderthals and humans differ too much for Neanderthals to be our relatives.

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Re: Tumbling loaded rounds to clean sizing lubricant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NineHotel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can call him yourself Bob. Real approachable guy. I can PM you his number/email if you want.

He is the guy behind the West Virginia junior HP program, NRA official, NRA rules committee member, has a business processing 223 brass (same guy that is supposed to be inventing a new trimmer).
</div></div>
Dick posts on this forum regularly: http://www.usrifleteams.com/forums/
 
Re: Tumbling loaded rounds to clean sizing lubricant

Throw a few rounds into the vibrator and let it go for 4 or 5 hours then pull the bullet and compare the powders. Probably not much difference if any
 
Re: Tumbling loaded rounds to clean sizing lubricant

Clean the fired brass first before you size. Wipe the sizing lube off then clean the primer pockets. Imperial Die Wax makes it easy compared to oil based lubes and it helps to keep the brass from tarnishing.

BTW: powder degradation from friction varies by type and burn rate. Ball will be more affected than stick as the burn retardants applied to ball powder are more critical and there is more surface area to be affected. Slower burn rate = more retardants.

Ask your powder manufacturer what they think about tumbling/vibrating.
 
Re: Tumbling loaded rounds to clean sizing lubricant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NativeCraft</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NineHotel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can call him yourself Bob. Real approachable guy. I can PM you his number/email if you want.

He is the guy behind the West Virginia junior HP program, NRA official, NRA rules committee member, has a business processing 223 brass (same guy that is supposed to be inventing a new trimmer).
</div></div>
Dick posts on this forum regularly: http://www.usrifleteams.com/forums/ </div></div>I searched that site for an hour or so and didn't dig up anything but his general endorsement of tumbling loaded rounds. Still looking.
 
Re: Tumbling loaded rounds to clean sizing lubricant

Got a reply from Mr. Whiting.
He intends to send me what he can on his experiment.

I had asked about "tumbling" loaded rounds which he took literaly to mean running them in a tumbler rather than a vibratory polisher. He felt there was sufficient danger of sensitive primer detonation in a true "tumbler".

As to the vibratory devices many of us use for polishing; he repeated what 9H relayed about seeing no evidence of powder problems, and will be forwarding more info to me when he can.