Tuner Brakes

[diderr]

Anyone have experience with tuner brakes? I have a LR hunting rifle that I’m looking to put one on. The thing is with the $250 it costs would afford me 200 or so more rounds to play with. Gun is right on the edge of shooting awesome for a hunting rifle and honestly acceptable as it is for what I need. I already have a APA Little Bastard on the gun so the added function of the brake part is a moot point.

 

[Rob01]

Just buy an ATS tuner and keep using the brake you have.

Kinetic Security Solutions LLC

Dedicated to providing quality products to the shooting community.

www.kineticsecuritysolutions.com

 

[kthomas]

I have a prototype tuner brake from a popular self timing brake company.

In my experience, a tuner doesn't make a rifle that has appropriate/tuned ammo to it more precise.

I haven't tested a tuner with a rifle and non-optimized factory ammo, but I have my sincere doubts on how well a tuner actually works for this purpose, and the general practicality of tuners for hunting/practical rifle disciplines.

 

[diderr]

Just buy an ATS tuner and keep using the brake you have.

Kinetic Security Solutions LLC

Dedicated to providing quality products to the shooting community.

www.kineticsecuritysolutions.com

Will that work over a carbon barrel? Forgot to add that part

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Strap in…..

 

[Rob01]

Will that work over a carbon barrel? Forgot to add that part

Will work on any barrel that is under the max size it can be used on it. And it does work very well. I tuned multiple lots of factory ammo in my 6.5 Creedmoor and below is 5 shots into a 6th hole I was using as an aiming point. I also tuned other lots of ammo and they were significantly tighter groups than without the tuner.

 

[theLBC]

I have a prototype tuner brake from a popular self timing brake company.

In my experience, a tuner doesn't make a rifle that has appropriate/tuned ammo to it more precise.

I haven't tested a tuner with a rifle and non-optimized factory ammo, but I have my sincere doubts on how well a tuner actually works for this purpose, and the general practicality of tuners for hunting/practical rifle disciplines.

i sort of assumed similarly, that tuning would be more beneficial to people that shoot factory ammo than folks that can tune by controlling velocity.

 

[kthomas]

i sort of assumed similarly, that tuning would be more beneficial to people that shoot factory ammo than folks that can tune by controlling velocity.

That's the hypothesis.

Though the data to support that hypothesis is so far pretty weak.

 

[pyrotechnic]

I would say that you're going to be better off spending the money on some ammo to practice positional shooting inside your hunting ranges than dicking with a tuner to try to shrink that group further. It will also be more fun.

I'm somewhat skeptical of tuners, and certainly don't buy into the "2 shot groups" to find your setting. It's been an rather hot button topic around here recently. I don't know what kind of hunting you do, but for my style I'm trying to cut weight on hunting rifles, not add it.

 

[diderr]

I would say that you're going to be better off spending the money on some ammo to practice positional shooting inside your hunting ranges than dicking with a tuner to try to shrink that group further. It will also be more fun.

I'm somewhat skeptical of tuners, and certainly don't buy into the "2 shot groups" to find your setting. It's been an rather hot button topic around here recently. I don't know what kind of hunting you do, but for my style I'm trying to cut weight on hunting rifles, not add it.

I found my OCW and have a little more room to play with seating depth. I just don’t have a lot. Using a 153.5 Berger in a long case. Loaded to max magazine length. I was lucky enough to source some new powder and the switch shrank my groups some also. My biggest thing is working on me also. It’s a light weight rifle (great for carrying, but super critical on form)

 

[Snuby642]

The EC tuner brake works and if you can shoot decent two shot groups will work just fine.

With the price of ammo or components you can't afford not to have one.

This was from a 223 ar.

 

[Snuby642]

@Rob01
Need to work on form.

You compleatly ruined a good cloverleaf.

 

[pyrotechnic]

I found my OCW and have a little more room to play with seating depth. I just don’t have a lot. Using a 153.5 Berger in a long case. Loaded to max magazine length. I was lucky enough to source some new powder and the switch shrank my groups some also. My biggest thing is working on me also. It’s a light weight rifle (great for carrying, but super critical on form)

That looks like a sweet rifle. And looks like it shoots pretty good.
Here is my experience with tuners.

Post in thread 'EC tuner brake' https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/ec-tuner-brake.7049680/post-10088555

I can't say that tuners do or do not work. Im skeptical, but I'd like to think there is something to them. The idea that they are a quick fix that won't require a considerable amount of time and ammunition to actually validate your settings is complete bullshit though.

Then again, I'm not that good at shooting 2 shot groups that mean anything.

 

[kthomas]

That looks like a sweet rifle. And looks like it shoots pretty good.
Here is my experience with tuners.

Post in thread 'EC tuner brake' https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/ec-tuner-brake.7049680/post-10088555

I can't say that tuners do or do not work. Im skeptical, but I'd like to think there is something to them. The idea that they are a quick fix that won't require a considerable amount of time and ammunition to actually validate your settings is complete bullshit though.

Then again, I'm not that good at shooting 2 shot groups that mean anything.

Good shooter or not, 2-shot groups are statistically meaningless.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

I’m not going to rehash old conversations and debates as it’s not of much use.

But I will advise that anyone interested in things like this due some research into group size dispersion.

Many will be surprised to see what really happens in the long haul. Regardless if a tuner is involved or not.

 

[pyrotechnic]

Good shooter or not, 2-shot groups are statistically meaningless.

My comment was aimed at the claim that they work fine if you can shoot decent 2 shot groups.

 

[Rob01]

I think people are mistaking the two shot tuning process as "shooting groups". It's not. It's shooting two shots to see thier spread and tune and watch to see if they come together or apart as you tune. You always check after tuning with actual 5 or 10 shot groups.

Here is a pic of one of my tuning targets for two lots of factory 6.5 Creedmoor ammo. First took only one adjustment and the second took more as you can see. Target 1 was not part of the actual test and I had used it for a couple foulers. As you can see you can see them come together as I adjust the tuner. Lot 715 only the one adjustment to a one hole two shot group which continued to a 5 shot and the 537 lot could only be tuned to the touching rounds but still well under 1/2 MOA and that lot of ammo never shot well in that rifle. If you want to use a tuner or not that is the end user's choice but they do work. Not saying they will work great on every rifle with every load but if someone is wanting to try and get a group tighter they are worth a try. Not like in this sport people don't spend a ton more money on all sorts of stuff to try and make rifles shoot better. LOL

 

[Gohring65]

Will work on any barrel that is under the max size it can be used on it. And it does work very well. I tuned multiple lots of factory ammo in my 6.5 Creedmoor and below is 5 shots into a 6th hole I was using as an aiming point. I also tuned other lots of ammo and they were significantly tighter groups than without the tuner.

View attachment 7845519

Hey Rob!
Take your finger and thumb off the fliers!!

I’m going to order a couple tuners. I got a Ar that’s giving me about 1 moa.
Do you think it would work on a barrel with the cut reduction at the muzzle like the colt hbar barrels?

 

[pyrotechnic]

@Rob01 thanks for sharing your experience. In my experience using 2 data points to make a judgement call has not worked out for me.

For me personally, I'm getting more and more of the opinion that we are able to shoot tight groups despite all the hand waving we do, whether it's with tuners or load development, simply because of quality rifles and ammunition loaded with quality components and equipment.

I would love to see more instances of us going back and comparing our worst loads/settings to our best with large sample sizes. I think the differences we would see would be rather minute.

 

[Rob01]

I’m going to order a couple tuners. I got a Ar that’s giving me about 1 moa.
Do you think it would work on a barrel with the cut reduction at the muzzle like the colt hbar barrels?

All they do is effect the harmonics so the cuts shouldn;t make a difference. Try it out. Doesn't work you can always sell it to someone who is wanting to try them on their rifle.

 

[Rob01]

@Rob01 thanks for sharing your experience. In my experience using 2 data points to make a judgement call has not worked out for me.

For me personally, I'm getting more and more of the opinion that we are able to shoot tight groups despite all the hand waving we do, whether it's with tuners or load development, simply because of quality rifles and ammunition loaded with quality components and equipment.

I would love to see more instances of us going back and comparing our worst loads/settings to our best with large sample sizes. I think the differences we would see would be rather minute.

But it's not just two data points. Each target is two points and then the next is two etc and then you verify with more groups of 5 or 10. That's what people are missing when seeing just two shots on target. If you feel betetr shooting 3 or 5 shots per target while tuning you can. I think it's a waste of ammo but if it makes someone else feel better then do it.

The better ammo and rifles definitely help in the shooting of tighter groups now. Definitely a better time than 20 years ago.

 

[Gohring65]

All they do is effect the harmonics so the cuts shouldn;t make a difference. Try it out. Doesn't work you can always sell it to someone who is wanting to try them on their rifle.

I think I’m going to.

 

[kthomas]

I think I’m going to.

Report back with your results, interested in hearing how it goes for you.

 

[diderr]

Played with seating depth today and might not need a tuner. Top left was my original load. I played with large windows on my die. I’ll play around the top right area and figure out where the longest part of that window is.

 

[Snuby642]

I test rounds at .003 incraments for seating depth on some loads.

I have still had my best tighten up with tuning. That may not be the case with all barrels and loads since I can only test what's in my hands.

I have also only tested one brand of tuner, EC .
I purchased it on the manufacturer's credibility and design it looked clean as well.

 

[Barelstroker]

Since word of mouth seems to convince so many guys, I thought a quote from an industry insider might carry some weight:

"Jayden Quinlan, ballistician at Hornady, says that the very first thing he does in his process of setting up a new rifle is “getting a really good handle on what the system is capable of. I’m glad we talked about this part because I believe it often gets overlooked. One part of that is cost because there is a cost associated every time we pull the trigger, both in barrel life and cost of components. The second part is ego: We don’t want to know how bad our system really is. I have a 1/2 MOA rifle every time I do my part – that cracks me up every time I hear it. So here is my typical response to someone who says “I have a 1/4 MOA or 1/2 MOA rifle.” My first question is, “Over how many shots? 2 or 5 or 10 or 30?” Because that’s important to know. If we’re talking about some kind of dispersion we need to know the sample to quantify if it is good or not. Because a 1/4 MOA group that is 2 shots doesn’t really tell me a whole lot, but a 1/4 MOA group that is 10 shots tells me a whole lot. So how many shots? That’s the first question, and generally, it is a super small sample size and it was done once, and the next group was 1 inch.

The argument is if you truly have a 1/2 MOA rifle at 1000 yards, and it’s a shoulder-fired, hunting-type, lightweight field rifle and it shoots 1/2 MOA at 1000. If it does, then take it to the heavy Benchrest Nationals because you’re probably going to win. You know?! Look at the average group size of those rifles. I’m sorry, I don’t believe you.

Putting ego aside, what is it really capable of? So I shoot no less than 10 shot groups when I’m testing my dispersion. Dispersion is pretty much linear, and it goes in non-linear when you add in velocity and drag and stuff like that. So aiming error and dispersion are kind of linear. So I shoot them at 100 yards, and no less than 10 shots. And I don’t have a big giant ego fit if it is 1 MOA, and I don’t have a big giant ego if it is 3/4 MOA.

We’ve done enough large sample size testing in 50 shot groups to understand that you’re chasing your tail sometimes when you’re trying to squeeze that last little bit out of it, and when you think you have it your sample size isn’t large enough for that to actually be valid. Because when I go to a match, how many shots am I shooting? 200 rounds? 250? So how representative is my sampling of 10 to my capability for 200 or 250? Not as good as you think.

So I shoot no less than 10 for my baseline. Let’s say it is 1 MOA. Okay, then 1 MOA is my baseline. Then I move on to testing my muzzle velocity …”

 

[Barelstroker]

Ahh Rob, you're going to fight this to the bitter end aren't you?
I've never owned a crystal ball but I can definitely see crow in your future.

 

[Rob01]

Nope just going to laugh at your usual rantings on the subject that I am sure will be the same as the last time. For the record I don’t care what you believe or if you believe me. I believe my own experiences and testing and that’s all that counts to me. But you just keep on tilting at that windmill.

 

[Gohring65]

David Tubb and Eric Cortina both sell and use tuner brakes.
Pretty compelling to me.

 

[Barelstroker]

Nope just going to laugh at your usual rantings on the subject that I am sure will be the same as the last time. For the record I don’t care what you believe or if you believe me. I believe my own experiences and testing and that’s all that counts to me. But you just keep on tilting at that windmill.

Nope just going to laugh at your usual rantings on the subject

That's why I chose to quote a guy with the credentials & experience which should give any rational individual pause.

 

[Rob01]

I don’t have to quote others I find on the internet. I actual do and know for myself. Keep up your internet searches though.

 

[Barelstroker]

David Tubb and Eric Cortina both sell and use tuner brakes.
Pretty compelling to me.

As I've stated many times before, my argument has never been about the efficacy of barrel tuners. My reservations are solely with the lack of robust test data used as proof that tuners are effective.

 

[Gohring65]

As I've stated many times before, my argument has never been about the efficacy of barrel tuners. My reservations are solely with the lack of robust test data used as proof that tuners are effective.

It just seems a lot harder to prove they don’t work than proving they do.

 

[Barelstroker]

I don’t have to quote others I find on the internet. I actual do and know for myself. Keep up your internet searches though.

Therein lies the discrepancy though Rob.
I not only have my own testing data but every credible source I can find on the subject is in agreement with my own findings.

 

[spife7980]

As I've stated many times before, my argument has never been about the efficacy of barrel tuners. My reservations are solely with the lack of robust test data used as proof that tuners are effective.

Then gather the data. Until you carry through and actually do, like you’ve claimed you will, just shut up already.

 

[Barelstroker]

It just seems a lot harder to prove they don’t work than proving they do.

It's difficult to convince guys that I'm not saying tuners don't work. It's an assumption most guys put together when I disagree with the validity of the data used.
I have two studies conducted by scientists which prove that the addition of a weight to the muzzle of a barrel does indeed reduce the vibrational frequencies of the barrel. So, from this perspective, I do not see it as implausible that tuners may indeed reduce projectile dispersion of the POI.
What I am saying is that to date, I have seen no formal studies or statistically robust data which proves that tuners do reduce dispersion or indeed are able to change dispersion via extremely small incremental changes in length.
With regard to the testing methods commonly used to "tune" a barrel tuner, using 2 or 3 shots per tuner increment or advancement is not a viable sample number & is of no statistical value & tells the shooter nothing about the true state of any change which may have occurred.

 

[Barelstroker]

Then gather the data. Until you carry through and actually do, like you’ve claimed you will, just shut up already.

Until you have adequate testing to state tuners do actually work, just shut up already.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Until you have adequate testing to state tuners do actually work, just shut up already.

Look dude, you gotta chill out.

You ruin any valid point you may make with the tantrums. As well as anyone else who attempts to make a similar point.

You turn the debate emotional and then everyone loses.

 

[Barelstroker]

Look dude, you gotta chill out.

You ruin any valid point you may make with the tantrums. As well as anyone else who attempts to make a similar point.

You turn the debate emotional and then everyone loses.

The only guy who had the tantrum was the guy who posted to me. Spife 7980 has a propensity to react the way he did when confronted with facts he can not accept due to previous commitments in line with his equally pretentious understanding of reality.
I intentionally copied his post & I wasn't in the least upset.
It's unclear to me why you think I was the instigator.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

The only guy who had the tantrum was the guy who posted to me. Spife 7980 has a propensity to react the way he did when confronted with facts he can not accept due to previous commitments in line with his equally pretentious understanding of reality.
I intentionally copied his post & I wasn't in the least upset.
It's unclear to me why you think I was the instigator.

No, you started in on Rob.

You’re instigating this and will continue to do so. That’s why you were locked out off similar threads.

You played the victim then when you’d PM me asking why you were locked out and you’re playing the victim now.

Hopefully one of the current mods will start locking you out of these convos again. Regardless if you have valid points you are the polar opposite of mature debate between adults.

It completely ruins your credibility.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

The only guy who had the tantrum was the guy who posted to me. Spife 7980 has a propensity to react the way he did when confronted with facts he can not accept due to previous commitments in line with his equally pretentious understanding of reality.
I intentionally copied his post & I wasn't in the least upset.
It's unclear to me why you think I was the instigator.

To remedy the “unclear” part:

You’re a childish asshole who throws tantrums when people don’t see things your way.

Sometimes your opinion is correct and other times it’s not.

However, you should consider that it’s also a sign of intelligence refraining from wasting time with people you cannot convince. Hence why you don’t see the experts you quote on here arguing with the people you are having hissy fits.

Your logic and reasoning is no different than someone who can’t understand dispersion when you can’t understand not to debate with someone who has told you in black and white they will not change their mind. Respect that and move on.

I will show a similar sign if intelligence by either using the ignore button on you or never responding to you again. As you have shown you do not have the mental or emotional capability to do anything more than instigate things.

 

[Barelstroker]

No, you started in on Rob.

Unless I've misunderstood the situation, Rob didn't seem to me to be overly upset at my comment to him nor was my comment intended to be anything other than a light hearted dig.

With regard to spife7980, this comment:

Then gather the data. Until you carry through and actually do, like you’ve claimed you will, just shut up already.

was referenced with this comment from myself:

As I've stated many times before, my argument has never been about the efficacy of barrel tuners. My reservations are solely with the lack of robust test data used as proof that tuners are effective.

There was no reference to any offence he thought I caused to Rob.
Until this point, I had not made any derogatory remarks or any negative comments whatsoever to spife7980 to justify his comment.
The way you've explained your view of the situation appears to me that you expect me to be able to discern some linkage between the comments & or the commenters & somehow realise that I am the cause of other commenters reactions.
You seem to believe that I hold some grudge against spife7980 which couldn't be further from the truth. Just some few hours ago, I left a positive reaction to a comment spife made in another thread simply because I agreed with him. This view you have of me as a vindictive tantrum child does not align with the way I present myself here on the Hide.
As I've tried to explain to you previously, the written version of our language lends itself to gross misinterpretation of the intent & indeed the countenance of the writer, driven frequently by the state of mind of the reader at the time.
From my perspective, there appears to be something other than the explanation given by you which could explain the motivation for the level of frustration shown therefore, in light of this, I'm happy to leave the thread in order to promote the advancement of uninterrupted, positive opinions.

 

[TexT-Rex]

I am trying to learn everything I can about long range shooting, and while on a budget, trying to spend on things that count and make a difference. I purchased on of E Cortina's tuner brakes and went through the 2-shot drill on my hand loads. I didn't get but minimum poi change going from factory-installed brake to the tuner brake. It was clear in looking at 2-shot groups where I should set the tuner. I then shot 3 groups of 5-shots each in the optimum setting. I am super happy with the EC Tuner Brake and am glad I spent the money on it.

 

[Barelstroker]

I am trying to learn everything I can about long range shooting, and while on a budget, trying to spend on things that count and make a difference. I purchased on of E Cortina's tuner brakes and went through the 2-shot drill on my hand loads. I didn't get but minimum poi change going from factory-installed brake to the tuner brake. It was clear in looking at 2-shot groups where I should set the tuner. I then shot 3 groups of 5-shots each in the optimum setting. I am super happy with the EC Tuner Brake and am glad I spent the money on it.

Yep dude, 3x5 shot groups & it's all sorted.
There's nothing more to think about, everything's good as gold.
The main thing is to keep listening to the guys that are convinced or the guys that are selling them.
Excellent choice, stay with it.
Your post tells me that you're convinced & that's all that matters.
As long as it works for you.

 

[Gohring65]

It's difficult to convince guys that I'm not saying tuners don't work. It's an assumption most guys put together when I disagree with the validity of the data used.
I have two studies conducted by scientists which prove that the addition of a weight to the muzzle of a barrel does indeed reduce the vibrational frequencies of the barrel. So, from this perspective, I do not see it as implausible that tuners may indeed reduce projectile dispersion of the POI.
What I am saying is that to date, I have seen no formal studies or statistically robust data which proves that tuners do reduce dispersion or indeed are able to change dispersion via extremely small incremental changes in length.
With regard to the testing methods commonly used to "tune" a barrel tuner, using 2 or 3 shots per tuner increment or advancement is not a viable sample number & is of no statistical value & tells the shooter nothing about the true state of any change which may have occurred.

This dude uses and sells a tunable brake.
That’s all the convincing I need to try one.

 

[TexT-Rex]

Yep dude, 3x5 shot groups & it's all sorted.
There's nothing more to think about, everything's good as gold.
The main thing is to keep listening to the guys that are convinced or the guys that are selling them.
Excellent choice, stay with it.
Your post tells me that you're convinced & that's all that matters.
As long as it works

 

[TexT-Rex]

Did i say i was done? No I didn't. More testing planned at 1,500 yards and in. You go have a nice day. I bet people just love being around somebody with a winning personality like yours...

 

[Barelstroker]

Did i say i was done? No I didn't. More testing planned at 1,500 yards and in. You go have a nice day. I bet people just love being around somebody with a winning personality like yours...

I then shot 3 groups of 5-shots each in the optimum setting. I am super happy with the EC Tuner Brake and am glad I spent the money on it.

I then shot 3 groups of 5-shots each in the optimum setting. I am super happy with the EC Tuner Brake and am glad I spent the money on it.

Seems you've made your choice.
You go have a nice day.
Nothin but positive opinions here.

 

[TexT-Rex]

Seems you've made your choice.
You go have a nice day.
Nothin but positive opinions here

 

[TexT-Rex]

Very assumptive on your part. Its a shame when someone has to mock and put down others to feel better about their miserable self. All the awards and medals are cool, but a dick personality cancels all that in my book. G...F...Y...S. Done with you. Life is too short for fing about with trolls.