Tuner Data

[cameljockey230]

Can anyone for or against Tuners please explain the data that is required that shows tuners work?
We will leave out the past 35 years of rimfire benchrest that shows every match won with a tuner versus sans tuner.
We will leave out the manufacturers who don't know how they work and make videos saying they have no idea.
Let's just look for this data issue if we can?

If someone who has never shot at a spearpoint match showed up with a tuner gun where would they need to place? 1st top 5 top 10 top 20?
Or would they need to shoot every match and win them all by 5000 points?

Is that even data?
Do they need to make a video?
What does the video need to show?

 

[kthomas]

It would behoove the tuner crowd to educate themselves on the process and principles of designing tests through the scientific method.

There seems to be a relative lack of understanding around testing methodologies, controlling of variables, data and statistical analysis, and understanding limitations and what conclusions can and can't be drawn.

Guide to Experimental Design | Overview, Steps, & Examples

Experiments are used to study causal relationships. You manipulate one or more independent variables and measure their effect on one or more dependent

www.scribbr.com

 

[kthomas]

There's lots of resources that can be found on the Internet that one could find to educate themselves.

With that knowledge, those proposing a hypothesis can design and perform tests that can be used as evidence to support their hypothesis.

 

[kthomas]

Thinking that match results are evidence enough to support the many claims made about tuners is a perfect example of how some clearly don't understand the scientific method and testing methodology.

 

[cameljockey230]

So answer the question using all the statistics and evidence you need please and quit telling us nonsense.
What data do you need!!!

 

[cameljockey230]

Better yet give me an example of the proof YOU need

 

[kthomas]

So answer the question using all the statistics and evidence you need please and quit telling us nonsense.
What data do you need!!!

Depends on what hypothesis you are trying to prove. There are more than a few when it comes to tuners. A test needs to be developed specifically to a hypothesis.

I don't have a hypothesis around tuners, so your question is best posed to someone that has a specific hypothesis.

 

[cameljockey230]

You can't tell us what you want to see for data is that your stance?

 

[kthomas]

You can't tell us what you want to see for data is that your stance?

A test that's designed for the specific hypothesis that follows the methodologies in the source I provided would be a nice start.

 

[cameljockey230]

So you are now openly admitting you have no idea what data you need you just know that you need some data correct?

 

[cameljockey230]

Hypothesis
A supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.

Can anyone else chime in and tell us what data kthomas needs?

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

Would you two just kiss already?

 

[cameljockey230]

I find it somewhat comical that somebody wants data but when asked directly what data would satisfy them they have no idea.
He wants us to create a hypothesis then prove that hypothesis with data but we can't do that as nothing we provide would satisfy him and he doesn't know what we need to prove to him.
I bet he has a Rubicks cube that is multi colored on each side frustrating him greatly

 

[kthomas]

I find it somewhat comical that somebody wants data but when asked directly what data would satisfy them they have no idea.
He wants us to create a hypothesis then prove that hypothesis with data but we can't do that as nothing we provide would satisfy him and he doesn't know what we need to prove to him.
I bet he has a Rubicks cube that is multi colored on each side frustrating him greatly

I provided the framework for which someone could develop a test.

You need to develop your hypothesis. Then you need to identify all the variables. From there, a test should be designed that controls/isolates the variables you don't want to test, using the methodology linked above.

That's a good starting point. Lots of resources available to help you understand how the scientific process works and proper testing methodology.

 

[cameljockey230]

If I come up with thr hypothesis and the testing you will then claim it was improper.
Your the one constantly asking for data so YOU tell us what data you want so we don't have any confusion.
Give us the hypothesis and the tests that will satisfy YOU.
Your constant stalling and inability to tell us what data you need is telling.

 

[Megalodong]

If I come up with thr hypothesis and the testing you will then claim it was improper.
Your the one constantly asking for data so YOU tell us what data you want so we don't have any confusion.
Give us the hypothesis and the tests that will satisfy YOU.
Your constant stalling and inability to tell us what data you need is telling.

Why are you so adamant about having kthomas’ approval? It’s really weird and your responses to them in this thread sure looks like some kinda mental illness.

 

[cameljockey230]

Well since your so uninformed let me help you out.
Kthomas is on every tuner thread on this forum claiming he needs data to show tuners work.
Now you have been educated as to why I am asking maybe you can confer with kthomas and tell us what data he needs so he doesn't ruin every tuner thread ever posted.

 

[kthomas]

Any testing following the scientific method would go a long way in establishing claims made for tuners.

Admittedly it would be no small feat, given the hundreds of variables that are involved.

But it's very difficult to accept some claims on how tuners influence precision when other variables aren't isolated or are being accounted for.

 

[cameljockey230]

Now for some proof.

My hypothesis is a tuner dampens the barrels muzzle.

My data
Harold Vaughn the grandfather of in flight ordnance for nuclear ballistic missiles at Sandia national labatory. The testing is all displayed in his book rifle accuracy facts.

 

[brianf]

God, please let’s the tuner talk stop.

Who cares about tuners.

People are winning with them and without them in actual competitions.

And no PRs is not a accuracy competition, people win with factory ammunition..which is a joke

BR and Fclass etc 1000 and in

Father out has too many environmental variables

Then ask those winners if they use a tuner because not all do , how and when they adjust the tuner

Then ask if the adjustments are repeatable and predetermined

Anything other than that is useless because only those disciplines shoot small and consistent enough.

Back to the arguing ..

 

[Megalodong]

Well since your so uninformed let me help you out.
Kthomas is on every tuner thread on this forum claiming he needs data to show tuners work.
Now you have been educated as to why I am asking maybe you can confer with kthomas and tell us what data he needs so he doesn't ruin every tuner thread ever posted.

You have a serious mental disorder if you can’t let this go. Maybe try doing what makes you happy and stop caring so much what other people think. When you base so much of your self worth and happiness on the opinions of others it’s not going to be good for you in the long run.

Your posts are almost incomprehensible, this is really seeming like a manic break. I would hope you have something better to do with your life.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

Back to the arguing ..

As you wish.

Actually, Vaughn makes no claim tuners work, did no testing on a rifle, and said "Unfortunately, I don't know any good way to test a muzzle weight to make sure it is really working . . . Theoretically, a tuned mass damper ... could be used to damp muzzle vibration." (Vaughn, p82).

They dont work.
Data - Bryan Litz, Volume III of Moder Advancements in Long Range Shooting

 

[cameljockey230]

Brian f
Further out still requires accuracy so yes tuners can and do work further out.
You adjust your tuner after you have obtained your best accuracy out of your gun.
The adjustments are set and left alone for the life of the barrel but only when properly adjusted. This is the secret.
The adjustments are repeatable as long as nothing has changed on the gun.
Thank you for good questions

 

[cameljockey230]

You have a serious mental disorder if you can’t let this go. Maybe try doing what makes you happy and stop caring so much what other people think. When you base so much of your self worth and happiness on the opinions of others it’s not going to be good for you in the long run.

Your posts are almost incomprehensible, this is really seeming like a manic break. I would hope you have something better to do with your life.

The only one having an attack is you so if you can't handle the heat stay out of the kitchen.

 

[cameljockey230]

As you wish.

Actually, Vaughn makes no claim tuners work, did no testing on a rifle, and said "Unfortunately, I don't know any good way to test a muzzle weight to make sure it is really working . . . Theoretically, a tuned mass damper ... could be used to damp muzzle vibration." (Vaughn, p82).

They dont work.
Data - Bryan Litz, Volume III of Moder Advancements in Long Range Shooting

Vaughn states any weight added to the muzzle helps accuracy. A tuner has mass and helps accuracy

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

Vaughn states any weight added to the muzzle helps accuracy. A tuner has mass and helps accuracy

Not in the book you listed as a source. I quoted it, anyone is free to check my work. Drop me a page number. I've got it open right now.

 

[brianf]

Brian f
Further out still requires accuracy so yes tuners can and do work further out.
You adjust your tuner after you have obtained your best accuracy out of your gun.
The adjustments are set and left alone for the life of the barrel but only when properly adjusted. This is the secret.
The adjustments are repeatable as long as nothing has changed on the gun.
Thank you for good questions

I swore I wouldn’t get involved …

but most BR winners who use a tuner, tune the day of as it’s not set and forget.

Many have found a tune in the morning might not be the best for the afternoon but they are unwilling to touch it because they noticed they chase rather than fix.

They have also tried recording environmentals and velocity in hopes that settings chart could be created but found that was not repeatable either.

I posted what I posted because it was a loaded question that in hopes it would not get a response.

All what I have posted is from reading BR winner interviews so it’s not some crazy theory.

BR guys shoot .1-2 for a agg at a multi day comp. So anyone that says they shoot .25 all day long because of a tuner…is lying plain and simple

Also, It is impossible to shoot that small that consistently with a bipod and rear bag..again no room for debate

If anyone debates what’s posted …put them on ignore are they are simple truths that cannot be disputed.

 

[Bandit320]

Vaughn states any weight added to the muzzle helps accuracy. A tuner has mass and helps accuracy

I won’t say that you sound like an internet idiot that has no understanding of how to propose a scientific question, how to set up testing in a scientific manner, or how to interpret the results you get. That would be rude.

What I will say; Why don’t you tell us about your work and educational background that would enable you to have even a remote possibility of answering the questions that you apparently can’t put into a question.

Personally, from your responses I think you’re an idiot.

 

[cameljockey230]

Not in the book you listed as a source. I quoted it, anyone is free to check my work. Drop me a page number. I've got it open right now.

Page 45 talks about the 3rd mode which is what a tuner does.
Page 62 tells us why
Page 81 says weight works.
Do you have a signed copy?

 

[cameljockey230]

I swore I wouldn’t get involved …

but most BR winners who use a tuner, tune the day of as it’s not set and forget.

Many have found a tune in the morning might not be the best for the afternoon but they are unwilling to touch it because they noticed they chase rather than fix.

They have also tried recording environmentals and velocity in hopes that settings chart could be created but found that was not repeatable either.

I posted what I posted because it was a loaded question that in hopes it would not get a response.

All what I have posted is from reading BR winner interviews so it’s not some crazy theory.

BR guys shoot .1-2 for a agg at a multi day comp. So anyone that says they shoot .25 all day long because of a tuner…is lying plain and simple

Also, It is impossible to shoot that small that consistently with a bipod and rear bag..again no room for debate

If anyone debates what’s posted …put them on ignore are they are simple truths that cannot be disputed.

Brian
You are much better at this than most so keep posting.
The short range 100,200,300 yard guys never set the tuner and forget it. The 600 and 1000 yard guys do.
The short range guys use volume to set the load and the longrange guys use weight. See my comment about the video posted above and why his grouping doubled or tripled day to day.

I will post a match result showing top ten shooters all in the ones for you.
A 0.25 agg no longer wins anything..

 

[cameljockey230]

I won’t say that you sound like an internet idiot that has no understanding of how to propose a scientific question, how to set up testing in a scientific manner, or how to interpret the results you get. That would be rude.

What I will say; Why don’t you tell us about your work and educational background that would enable you to have even a remote possibility of answering the questions that you apparently can’t put into a question.

Personally, from your responses I think you’re an idiot.

Please post a picture of your brass rat and I will post a picture of mine.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

Page 45 talks about the 3rd mode which is what a tuner does.
Page 62 tells us why
Page 81 says weight works.
Do you have a signed copy?

Try again. Nowhere on this page does it say a weight increases accuracy, nor does it make any weight claim without the caveat "theoretically." Theory != Data


Actually, don't try again. You've lost all credibility and there's close to zero you or your signed copy of the book can do to regain it with me.

 

[cameljockey230]

View attachment 8243854

Try again. Nowhere on this page does it say a weight increases accuracy, nor does it make any weight claim without the caveat "theoretically." Theory != Data


Actually, don't try again. You've lost all credibility and there's close to zero you or your signed copy of the book can do to regain it with me.

Actually it does and the fact you can't read is troublesome.
Your own quote says the addition of 0.18 pounds to the muzzle reduces dispersion by a factor of 2.
The fact that you don't know what dispersion is means the American education system has let you down.

 

[kthomas]

Actually it does and the fact you can't read is troublesome.
Your own quote says the addition of 0.18 pounds to the muzzle reduces dispersion by a factor of 2.
The fact that you don't know what dispersion is means the American education system has let you down.

According to a *computer model*

The author says that "under the right conditions they probably work" - not a very conclusive statement.

 

[cameljockey230]

According to a *computer model*

The author says that "under the right conditions they probably work" - not a very conclusive statement.

The computer model came from sandia national laboratories. And you mixed up what he said.
Lolroflmao

 

[Ebar48]

Brian Litz has a good test he did on the topic in his latest book.

 

[cameljockey230]

Brianf
As promised.
Those bullets mentioned in the earlier video are jokers made by Paul who is Lester brunos daughters husband or prp bullets.
The comment from Roy Darnell says it all.

 

[kthomas]

The computer model came from sandia national laboratories. And you mixed up what he said.
Lolroflmao

It's still a computer model.

Models have lots of limitations and require a lot of assumptions.

They need to be verified with actual testing.

And quote is right from that page.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

Actually it does and the fact you can't read is troublesome.
Your own quote says the addition of 0.18 pounds to the muzzle reduces dispersion by a factor of 2.
The fact that you don't know what dispersion is means the American education system has let you down.

It also says "...they can cause large dispersion." See, I read at a 7th grade level and I can take things out of context just as well as you can.

The testing is all displayed in his book rifle accuracy facts.

He provides no testing. I don't care where the model comes from.

Vaughn states any weight added to the muzzle helps accuracy. A tuner has mass and helps accuracy

He doesn't make any such claim nor provide any level of certainty or proof.

I'm done here. He's all yours fellas.

 

[brianf]

Brianf
As promised.
Those bullets mentioned in the earlier video are jokers made by Paul who is Lester brunos daughters husband or prp bullets.
The comment from Roy Darnell says it all.

100%
I meant the guys who don’t have BR rigs (everyone who comments in the hide) saying their impact with prefit proof is .25 all day etc..

 

[cameljockey230]

Gotcha
I doubt anyone posting here has a half inch gun.

 

[pyrotechnic]

I excitedly clicked on this thread thinking it was going to be one with some sort of results posted in it. Yet another dumpsterfire where the agnostics live rent free in the heads of true believers.

 

[cameljockey230]

They haven't asked the right questions yet

 

[Ebar48]

Has anyone shot real word statistically significant groups at various tuner settings that show they have an actual effect on group size? The only data I’m aware of like this is Brian Litz who showed they did not make a statistical difference. Serious question.

 

[kthomas]

100%
I meant the guys who don’t have BR rigs (everyone who comments in the hide) saying their impact with prefit proof is .25 all day etc..

That's the rub.

I have a hard time believing a tuner will turn a rifle shooting factory ammunition at 3/4-1 MOA into a 1/4-1/3 MOA rifle.

I believe any benefit from a tuner will be marginal. You won't really be able to extract it shooting prone from bipod and rear bag or off of a barricade.

In disciplines where marginal makes a difference between a win and 10th place, turn that's where I see tuners truly having an application.

And admittedly I'm one of those people that probably won't benefit from a tuner.

 

[Emerson0311]

@cameljockey230

Tell me what you see here without any context:

View attachment 8244064

Looks like inconclusive data of something.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Looks like inconclusive data of something.

Deleted. Gonna start this off a different way. Stand by.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

@cameljockey230 So, let's set some parameters for a conversation.

I think we can agree that tuners are exploiting the (call it fact, theory, whatever you want) movement of a barrel correct?

If so, in order to tune said barrel, the barrel must move in a consistent an predictable manner correct?


Please correct me on either of those two things before going forward. I'll move onto another post after the reply since this is your thread.

Thanks

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Can anyone for or against Tuners please explain the data that is required that shows tuners work?
We will leave out the past 35 years of rimfire benchrest that shows every match won with a tuner versus sans tuner.
We will leave out the manufacturers who don't know how they work and make videos saying they have no idea.
Let's just look for this data issue if we can?

If someone who has never shot at a spearpoint match showed up with a tuner gun where would they need to place? 1st top 5 top 10 top 20?
Or would they need to shoot every match and win them all by 5000 points?

Is that even data?
Do they need to make a video?
What does the video need to show?

This is simple. Data that would be accepted in peer reviewed science journals.

I.E. actual educated scientists/engineers would generally agree that the testing done is sound and shows anything statistically relevant.



Because let's be honest, most people in this industry don't even know how SD and ES actually work or how to extrapolate the data from a chronograph into any actual data that means anything. Let alone how to properly test something utilizing the basic Scientific Method.

 

[cameljockey230]

@cameljockey230 So, let's set some parameters for a conversation.

I think we can agree that tuners are exploiting the (call it fact, theory, whatever you want) movement of a barrel correct?

If so, in order to tune said barrel, the barrel must move in a consistent an predictable manner correct?


Please correct me on either of those two things before going forward. I'll move onto another post after the reply since this is your thread.

Thanks

We want the muzzle pointing upward with the least amount of movement possible.
And yes