Tuners in question ?

[Snuby642]

So starting with factory ammo or ammo that was developed before tuner was attached will show results, especially for factory rounds.

So you add or subtract several oz of weight and change lenght of barrel harmonics run your pet load and proclaim it sucks / doesn't help. It doesn't work like that.

If you do load development with the tuner in place on an arbitrary number, say five then run your normal ladder test and seating (or not), then you can tune that to a group that is probably the limmit of your equipment or your skills.

Well have to go get the sacrificial goat ready for the total eclipse.

 

[brianf]

E

So starting with factory ammo or ammo that was developed before tuner was attached will show results, especially for factory rounds.

So you add or subtract several oz of weight and change lenght of barrel harmonics run your pet load and proclaim it sucks / doesn't help. It doesn't work like that.

If you do load development with the tuner in place on an arbitrary number, say five then run your normal ladder test and seating (or not), then you can tune that to a group that is probably the limmit of your equipment or your skills.

We’ll have to go get the sacrificial goat ready for the total eclipse.

Every “pro” tuner shooter as well as the actual mfg agree that you cannot tune factory center fire.

 

[Taylorbok]

Every “pro” tuner shooter as well as the actual mfg agree that you cannot tune factory center fire.

that is un-true. Most if not all tuner mfg's will claim you can tune factory ammo and rifle

 

[brianf]

that is un-true. Most if not all tuner mfg's will claim you can tune factory ammo and rifle

Re read this and every other tuner thread and listen to cortina’s podcast

 

[Taylorbok]

Re read this and every other tuner thread and listen to cortina’s podcast

Cortina has a video where they "tune" a factory rem 700 6.5 creed shooting Berger factory ammo.
Not to mention almost every tuner seller mentions being able to tighten factory ammo groups.

 

[brianf]

Cortina has a video where they "tune" a factory rem 700 6.5 creed shooting Berger factory ammo.
Not to mention almost every tuner seller mentions being able to tighten factory ammo groups.

Ok , im out anyway

 

[kthomas]

Cortina has a video where they "tune" a factory rem 700 6.5 creed shooting Berger factory ammo.
Not to mention almost every tuner seller mentions being able to tighten factory ammo groups.

Not every.

Using tuners to make factory ammo shoot better is a pretty novel concept to the F-class and BR crowd (besides Cortina). For centerfire disciplines, it seems that while tuners have been used for decades, it's only become a thing to use tuners to allegedly make factory ammo better when PRS started adopting tuners.

This is a very new use for tuners in centerfire.

 

[Taylorbok]

Not every.

Using tuners to make factory ammo shoot better is a pretty novel concept to the F-class and BR crowd (besides Cortina). For centerfire disciplines, it seems that while tuners have been used for decades, it's only become a thing to use tuners to allegedly make factory ammo better when PRS started adopting tuners.

This is a very new use for tuners in centerfire.

Note that I said “almost every”
They also typically claim it will work with rimfire.

I think the majority of it is BS but I’ve got one to try for myself anyhow.

 

[misser]

tuners work

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

View attachment 8392231
tuners work

LOL. Disregarding whether tuners work or not, you're showing literally nothing here. For example, here's the same rifle, same ammo, no tuner. Shot group, moved zero, shot another group.

It's fine to believe or don't believe they work, but at least put some effort into your attempts to illustrate it either way. Pictures of two groups ain't gonna show anything.

 

[misser]

LOL. Disregarding whether tuners work or not, you're showing literally nothing here. For example, here's the same rifle, same ammo, no tuner. Shot group, moved zero, shot another group.

It's fine to believe or don't believe they work, but at least put some effort into your attempts to illustrate it either way. Pictures of two groups ain't gonna show anything.

same rifle same ammo minutes apart. from bad to great by making a small adjustment to the tuner. are you that guy on youtube

''Whining in the wind''? he doesn't like tuners

 

[kthomas]

same rifle same ammo minutes apart. from bad to great by making a small adjustment to the tuner. are you that guy on youtube

''Whining in the wind''? he doesn't like tuners

I think the point being made is that its not uncommon at all for shooters to go from shooting a really bad group to a really good group. A lot of times its the shooter, not the equipment that causes that discrepancy. Posting two groups is not really proof of anything.

 

[misser]

I think the point being made is that its not uncommon at all for shooters to go from shooting a really bad group to a really good group. A lot of times its the shooter, not the equipment that causes that discrepancy. Posting two groups is not really proof of anything.

Minutes after,same gun 2/10 more powder 3 bullets. I had loaded 10 for the test saved the 3 to measure and take apart to check charges

 

[misser]

only thing P ing me off ,2520 is hard to get right now

 

[kthomas]

Minutes after,same gun 2/10 more powder 3 bullets. I had loaded 10 for the test saved the 3 to measure and take apart to check charges

Maybe the rifle liked a little more weight on the end. Maybe there was shooter error in the first group that contributed to most of the discrepancy. Maybe you're a victim of statistics. Etc.

Honestly, there are many factors that weren't isolated that could've contributed to your change in group sizes.

But if you think a tuner works for you, then by all means keep using it.

 

[misser]

Different day different gun.small adjustment

 

[Taylorbok]

Different day different gun.small adjustment

Have you not been paying attention? one or 2 groups proves nothing. Those groups are well within what would be expected of regular dispersion with no adjustment.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

Have you not been paying attention? one or 2 groups proves nothing. Those groups are well within what would be expected of regular dispersion with no adjustment.

I've been following these threads for a while, and I think the only thing I've really learned is that tuner proponents seem to have absolutely no understanding of the implications of normal distribution, or why someone would insist on large samples, especially when trying to learn something about a system that's already very precise.

Whether this ignorance is willful and born or wishful thinking, or not, probably depends on the person.

 

[misser]

I've been following these threads for a while, and I think the only thing I've really learned is that tuner proponents seem to have absolutely no understanding of the implications of normal distribution, or why someone would insist on large samples, especially when trying to learn something about a system that's already very precise.

Whether this ignorance is willful and born or wishful thinking, or not, probably depends on the person.

can a tuner make a great shooting gun shoot bad ?

 

[Snuby642]

Not if you do the same load development with it attached.

 

[Taylorbok]

can a tuner make a great shooting gun shoot bad ?

Basically no.
I do actually believe both test showed some correlation to decreased dispersion simply by adding the mass to the muzzle. Myles from Hornady has recently eluded to the fact he's seen correlation between the type of muzzle device and dispersion, not sure if they will publish that test but from the little I gathered basically your brake could be causing issues you are un-aware of.

 

[misser]

Basically no.
I do actually believe both test showed some correlation to decreased dispersion simply by adding the mass to the muzzle. Myles from Hornady has recently eluded to the fact he's seen correlation between the type of muzzle device and dispersion, not sure if they will publish that test but from the little I gathered basically your brake could be causing issues you are un-aware of.

brake ?? i thought we were talking tuners

 

[Taylorbok]

brake ?? i thought we were talking tuners

If you can't see the correlation between my comment and the conversation all hope is lost.

To elaborate farther, he mentioned he tested (significantly) several muzzle devices with the same weight that caused varying amounts of dispersion. From my understanding he is considering that the gasses/ turbulence after exit may play a larger role than thought.

 

[Snuby642]

Maybe your suppressor helps when you put it on, maybe makes it worse.

For a little over a grand and the wait for paperwork you can find out.

Oh and you have to develop your load with it on as well.
I have guns and cans and it's about 50 / 50 so far for the rifles.

I have put muzzle brakes on guns and had them go to hell and not been able to adjust loads as well.

You can scew tests and baffle sheep with bullshit.

I'm not buying it.

My tuner works as advertised.

 

[misser]

If you can't see the correlation between my comment and the conversation all hope is lost.

To elaborate farther, he mentioned he tested (significantly) several muzzle devices with the same weight that caused varying amounts of dispersion. From my understanding he is considering that the gasses/ turbulence after exit may play a larger role than thought.

i have brakes, i have tuner brakes and, I have tuners . tunning using a brake is iffy at best. you can develop a loading with a brake BTDT

 

[brianf]

i have brakes, i have tuner brakes and, I have tuners . tunning using a brake is iffy at best. you can develop a loading with a brake BTDT

But then other tuner mfg say that adjustable tuners don’t work and you have to use a sold weight/brake and remove material for a true tune to work

There is apparently a book about it

From another thread that was deleted.

Which is why tuners are a joke and waste of money except for looks and the brake

 

[misser]

But then other tuner mfg say that adjustable tuners don’t work and you have to use a sold weight/brake and remove material for a true tune to work

There is apparently a book about it

From another thread that was deleted.

Which is why tuners are a joke and east or money except for looks and the brake

oh theres a book about ,ya that for sure makes it gospel . not

 

[iceng]

can a tuner make a great shooting gun shoot bad ?

Yep.
By that i mean, it can open up groups. ES/SD dont get effected.

 

[misser]

barrel harmonics

Yep.
By that i mean, it can open up groups. ES/SD dont get effected.

barrel harmonics are

 

[Taylorbok]

i have brakes, i have tuner brakes and, I have tuners . tunning using a brake is iffy at best. you can develop a loading with a brake BTDT

do you have any testing or proof to back up those claims?

 

[NightStash]

do you have any testing or proof to back up those claims?

Yes he has two paper plates with four holes each...

 

[Snuby642]

These tuner denyers are going to shit on whatever you do.

You could do 100 shots prone off a bipod and they would bitch it wasn't off of bags.

They have spent a lot of money for top tier equipment, you walk up with your mid tier crap and screw a 250$ tuner brake on and the goal post just moved.

 

[Taylorbok]

These tuner denyers are going to shit on whatever you do.

You could do 100 shots prone off a bipod and they would bitch it wasn't off of bags.

They have spent a lot of money for top tier equipment, you walk up with your mid tier crap and screw a 250$ tuner brake on and the goal post just moved.

It's actually quite the opposite.
When ever anyone conducts a test and the outcome is tuners don't do squat it's the tuner crowd bitching the test was done wrong.
Your tuner gun shoots the same as guys with out one, prove otherwise.

 

[kthomas]

These tuner denyers are going to shit on whatever you do.

You could do 100 shots prone off a bipod and they would bitch it wasn't off of bags.

They have spent a lot of money for top tier equipment, you walk up with your mid tier crap and screw a 250$ tuner brake on and the goal post just moved.

The issue is that no comprehensive testing of tuners has demonstrated any of the claims tuner advocates make.

It's not that we would never be happy - it's more that tuner advocates clearly don't understand the basic fundamentals of scientific testing. The "tests" conducted by tuner advocates are full of confounders and don't isolate numerous variables that all come into play with ballistics. And on top of that are conducted with sample sizes that are incredibly small, that you can't base any conclusions off of.

 

[Snuby642]

There is no amount of proof that will satisfy you.

I'm guessing you're into testing for profit?

 

[Taylorbok]

There is no amount of proof that will satisfy you.

I'm guessing you're into testing for profit.

I honestly think the majority of us would accept even one properly conducted test.

 

[kthomas]

There is no amount of proof that will satisfy you.

I'm guessing you're into testing for profit.

Not true.

I would be happy to take even a single test conducted that properly utilizes the scientific method.

 

[Snuby642]

So I forgot the question mark.
Are you associated with a testing company?

I have read examples of the denyers testing that they want people to do for proof and it is designed for ridiculous scrutiny and goalposts on wheels.

 

[kthomas]

So I forgot the question mark.
Are you associated with a testing company?

I have read examples of the denyers testing that they want people to do for proof and it is designed for ridiculous scrutiny and goalposts on wheels.

I have no professional association with any testing company, or anything tuner or firearms related.

I gain nothing professionally or fiscally, from any testing or outcomes from any such testing.

 

[misser]

do you have any testing or proof to back up those claims?

i have actually tested many times . 2 different AR 10, 3 different AR15 have either EC tuner brakes or just tuners,no real need for a brake on a 223.

 

[Taylorbok]

So I forgot the question mark.
Are you associated with a testing company?

I have read examples of the denyers testing that they want people to do for proof and it is designed for ridiculous scrutiny and goalposts on wheels.

If I was trying to prove they worked I would run through the settings shooting 3-5 shot groups, I'd maybe even go through the settings twice to show the settings are repeatable. Then I would pick my best and worst tuner settings, I would shoot one ten shot group at each and then probably 5, 5 shot groups at each

I actually am hoping to do this or something similar in the next month or so here when I have some time

 

[Tx_Aggie]

If I was trying to prove they worked I would run through the settings shooting 3-5 shot groups, I'd maybe even go through the settings twice to show the settings are repeatable. Then I would pick my best and worst tuner settings, I would shoot one ten shot group at each and then probably 5, 5 shot groups at each

I actually am hoping to do this or something similar in the next month or so here when I have some time

That sounds like a decent start.

7 cycles through the settings, with a 5 shot group at each setting, would be better. You could overlay your individual 5 shot groups into a composite 35 shot group for each setting (keeping in mind POA), then measure and compare the mean radius of each.

Done that way there would be no need to subjectively pick what looked like the best and worst, as you could objectively compare all of the settings against each other.

I guess for fun you could also ask some tuner experts to pick what they think is the best setting based on the first cycle, then see how things shake out after the other 6.

 

[Taylorbok]

That sounds like a decent start.

7 cycles through the settings, with a 5 shot group at each setting, would be better. You could overlay your individual 5 shot groups into a composite 35 shot group for each setting (keeping in mind POA), then measure and compare the mean radius of each.

Done that way there would be no need to subjectively pick what looked like the best and worst, as you could objectively compare all of the settings against each other.

I guess for fun you could also ask some tuner experts to pick what they think is the best setting based on the first cycle, then see how things shake out after the other 6.

That is a very exhaustive test for someone who doesn't have anything to gain from it. It would highly benefit a tuner building if the results came out positive. I wonder why we haven't seen any of these test conducted by tuner manufacturers...

If the test was to be conducted independently it would be fun to add the tuner expert twist to it.

 

[kthomas]

That is a very exhaustive test for someone who doesn't have anything to gain from it. It would highly benefit a tuner building if the results came out positive. I wonder why we haven't seen any of these test conducted by tuner manufacturers...

If the test was to be conducted independently it would be fun to add the tuner expert twist to it.

Tuner manufacturers have nothing to gain.

People believe they work - so why take on rigorous testing that would (very likely) cast doubt on a lot of their claims?

People already sincerely believe they can slap a tuner on, shoot 2-3 round groups, and move the tuner a few thousandths of an inch down the barrel and that will somehow unlock precision potential your rifle has never seen before.

It's in the best interest of tuner manufacturers for this dark art to be as ambiguous as possible.

 

[Snuby642]

Like I said above they come up with bs test and no matter the result they will bitch about it and pick it apart.

Why did Eric Cortina not pay for the bull shit tests from these guys?

I'll show you.



He doesn't need too.
E C Tuner brake

 

[kthomas]

Like I said above they come up with bs test and no matter the result they will bitch about it and pick it apart.

Why did Eric Cortina not pay for the bull shit tests from these guys?

I'll show you.



He doesn't need too.
E C Tuner brake

I have a good feeling he would be champion even without a tuner on the end of his rifle...

 

[Taylorbok]

@kthomas that was a rhetorical question, I already knew the answer. LOL.

Like I said above they come up with bs test and no matter the result they will bitch about it and pick it apart.

Why did Eric Cortina not pay for the bull shit tests from these guys?

I'll show you.



He doesn't need too.
E C Tuner brake

He doesn't do true testing because it would likely expose that they are basically snake oil.

What do you want us to take away from that video? That he won SWN? You can't use that as a metric of whether they work or not. What about all the other guys who win that don't use tuners? how does that support your theory?

 

[kthomas]

@kthomas that was a rhetorical question, I already knew the answer. LOL.


He doesn't do true testing because it would likely expose that they are basically snake oil.

What do you want us to take away from that video? That he won SWN? You can't use that as a metric of whether they work or not. What about all the other guys who win that don't use tuners? how does that support your theory?

And playing off that same argument, imagine how much smaller this 1,000 yard world record would be with a tuner:

Sunday GunDay: .300 WSM Pending 1K World Record Heavy Gun « Daily Bulletin

This Sunday we feature an impressive .300 WSM Heavy Gun shot by a superb long-range shooter. With this rig, at age 83, Arizona benchrest ace Charles Greer drilled a remarkable 2.862 100-10X group, beating all known 1000-Yard HG 10-shot records on the books.

bulletin.accurateshooter.com

Since a tuner helps you win competitions, I'm sure it helps with world records. Undoubtedly this record will get beaten in no time by someone using a tuner.

 

[Snuby642]

The vidio beforehand shows tuners all up and down the line.

Tell the guys you and kt don't sell testing. They need to know who is feeding them the shit on a plate.

I don't have a theory.

 

[kthomas]

The vidio beforehand shows tuners all up and down the line.

Tell the guys you and kt don't sell testing. They need to know who is feeding them the shit on a plate.

I don't have a theory.

People are obviously free to use what they want.

Competitors, including shooters, are notorious for using anything that gives even a perceived competitive advantage.

Maybe they work. Maybe they don't. Maybe they work a bit differently than advertised. I don't know. All I know is that there's currently little quality evidence to support the conclusions being made around tuners "working".

People winning with tuners is not evidence that they win because of tuners. That's an important distinction.