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Tuners
- Thread starter dhom
- Start date
My experience with tuners is very limited. A few years ago, I purchased a tuner from Mike Ezel. I spent the time consulting with Tony Purdy about the barrel and how to set the tuner. I installed in on an already very accurate Remington 540XR that I had (see gen1 of 6x5 challenge). After spending a whole day and about 300rds of ammo I had it tuned to a specific lot of Lapua CX that it already shot well. Results? Reduced ave group sizes by 20% (more in some cases). Example 5 shot group attached.
In my case I found that anytime I switched ammo or even lot numbers of same ammo I had to retune the rifle. Very tedious and I was not competing with it at the time. Since it was an old vintage Remington, it was not good enough for unlimited and could not shoot factory classes with a tuner so, I removed the unit from the rifle. I have been using it with good result in the new ARA factory class this year but the rifle will not be allowed in 2021 since it is not a repeater. Thinking about reinstalling the tuner and giving it a try in Ivan's BP150 matches next year.
Irish
In my case I found that anytime I switched ammo or even lot numbers of same ammo I had to retune the rifle. Very tedious and I was not competing with it at the time. Since it was an old vintage Remington, it was not good enough for unlimited and could not shoot factory classes with a tuner so, I removed the unit from the rifle. I have been using it with good result in the new ARA factory class this year but the rifle will not be allowed in 2021 since it is not a repeater. Thinking about reinstalling the tuner and giving it a try in Ivan's BP150 matches next year.
Irish
Attachments
![540 PDT[1].JPG](/shooting/data/attachments/622/622954-300e5ab3183ceddd99373c39aa227e97.jpg)
I've been thinking about getting a tuner as well, so no first hand experience. I do not compete and not sure if it's worth the expense and time required, especially on a 16.5" barrel with a straight .920 contour
The goal of using a tuner is about placing the proper amount of weight the proper distance forward of the crown. A tuner is not used to continually futz with while you're shooting or "fine tune" specific ammo, etc. Tuners don't actually have to be adjustable, they can be a fixed amount of weight, which would likely help many, I believe.
MB
You can expect to improve the size of your groups. It's not going to make a poorly built gun shoot like a very well built gun. The same goes for the cartridges you may use.
Yes. If you're a precision reloader, then you'll understand that different ammo will produce a different harmonic in the barrel. It's this harmonic that a tuner is designed to change to fit the ammo you're firing.
No . . . not really. And it depends on the cause of the flyer. But it can help in reducing the amplitude of a flyer if it's cause by something due to the cartridge configuration so that your group won't be at large as it might be otherwise.
So far, I have a Savage Mark II [22" heavy fluted barrel], Tikka T1X [18"], and a Bergara 22lr [18" heavy barrel\. At 50 yds I have been able to shoot .2 and.3 for 5 shot groups with the right ammo. Also, I have been able to shoot sub MOA @ 100 yds. Actually, I bought these rifles in that order. I shoot informal 50 and 100 yd matches and some of the guys there are amazing shooters. It didn't take long to figure out I am totally outclassed just by looking at what they are shooting. I am not convinced that I can't some pretty good results from what I am shooting. Just looking for ways to improve. Originally, I started shooting .22 again to take a break from reloading and relax. I quickly found out it was during a time when everyone is buying guns and ammo relentlessly. Seems when I test a new lot of ammo you can't get any more. [gets a little frustrating] I'll be happy when things level out again.
Using the USBR target, my best was around a 212 score before the tuner. My first try at it with the tuner, I scored a 233. The tuner made the gun much more enjoyable to me and well worth the 150 bucks.
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I get mixed advise from different shooters. Some people tell me once the tuner is set up for your rifle you are good, some say you need to tune every ammo change [brand]. My theory would be same speed should be the same tuner setting. The mixed advise I am getting are from people using tuners I see shoot 249 and 250 scores at 50 yards. I am talking mainly higher end rifles such as Anschutz and 40X's.
Speed isn’t the only factor. I’ll use centerfire as an example because it’s easier to see the difference when we load ammo.
You can take rounds that all run 2950 fps, but have varying seating depths that will group differently. And thusly, would need different tuner settings. Or different bullets going the same speed.
Same principle applies to Rimfire.
My understanding of the tuner such as the Harrells type and others is that it is used to precisely adjust a large weight fore and aft on the end of the bbl until a null point is found at the muzzle. The barrel vibrates or rings from the impulse of the shot and this harmonic vibration moves the bbl which can in some cases toss a shot off away from the desired point of aim. This is a very small variance in the flight path of the bullet and unless your rifle is already pretty accurate you might not even see the difference as it gets lost in the noise from other variables. But once you have achieved a high degree of precision with the rifle it can be seen.
The tuner is used to find a null point where the vibrations are less or zero so the bullets leave the muzzle all traveling along the same flight path. Other variables like wind and projectile shape then take over. Most tuners have enough range of adjustment to find maybe two nulls on a typical match rifle bbl. Once found, I think as long as you stick with the same speed of ammo from the same mfg you should be good to go. To some degree it should not change much anyway but in my case with the Ezel tuner it seemed to but I was dumb and still learning and at the time did not even know that Lapua ammo was marked with a speed code so, I may have switched to a faster or slower lot and upset the accuracy. Plus the Ezel tuner has chambers which are partially filled with powdered cadmium which helps to further dampen muzzle vibes. This may or may not make it respond differently to the Harrells type tuner. I did not play with mine long enough to fully understand it. I hope to test it more this winter.
Any who have shot in ARA Sporter classes in the last five years may have seen some of the John Langley tuned CZ452 sporter rifles with the custom match Rock Creek cut rifled bbls made by Mr. Muller. These were fitted with a fixed weight "so called tuner" to dampen the muzzle vibrations. This was the product of many hours of trial & error, calculations and testing to arrive at the right length and weight to work. But it was still designed for one speed of one mfg's ammo. Still, It would shoot pretty darn well with anything and won the last five seasons of ARA Sporter class for the guy he built it for. The so called tuner is not adjustable and as such is not really a tunable element. The same sort of effect can be had with the little rubber doughnut tuners that slide onto the bbl to dampen vibrations. I have one of those on my little pencil bbl Savage Bmag which contrary to many claims is super accurate for me.
One last experience I will share because it was so profound. I have an old Pre-A model 52 Winchester rifle that came to me with a modern receiver mounted set of scope rings in which I clamped a 6-24x modern scope and used the rifle for tgt practice, hunting and casual rifle matches. It was the most accurate 22 I had ever owned and I thought I was a pretty good shot with it until I competed in a local ARA unlimited benchrest match with it. That was an eye opener!!! I scored last place with what turned out to be pretty respectable (for a stock sporter on sand bags) 1900's for most of the cards. But I was competing with about five guys who were all top 20 in the nation, lol. I went home with my tail between my legs. About a year later, I removed the modern optic from that rifle and installed an old vintage barrel mounted scope which was also a 6-24x optic (BALVar). I was stunned how much better that rifle shot with the old scope clamped onto the bbl. It became as accurate as my Anschutz Super Match which is a supremely accurate rifle. I think that the very long bbl mounted scope acts like a loose bridge which both stiffens the bbl and somewhat dampens its inherent vibrations. It might just be coincidence but it has been a winner many times in our local sporter fun-shoot matches and today most of our top shooters have acquired Winchester 52's as well so they can keep up and last week's winner was shooting a 52C that had a big ole long Unertl 36x mounted onto its bbl
Maybe those old gun makers in the 30's and 40's knew something about building rifles that would shoot?
Irish
The tuner is used to find a null point where the vibrations are less or zero so the bullets leave the muzzle all traveling along the same flight path. Other variables like wind and projectile shape then take over. Most tuners have enough range of adjustment to find maybe two nulls on a typical match rifle bbl. Once found, I think as long as you stick with the same speed of ammo from the same mfg you should be good to go. To some degree it should not change much anyway but in my case with the Ezel tuner it seemed to but I was dumb and still learning and at the time did not even know that Lapua ammo was marked with a speed code so, I may have switched to a faster or slower lot and upset the accuracy. Plus the Ezel tuner has chambers which are partially filled with powdered cadmium which helps to further dampen muzzle vibes. This may or may not make it respond differently to the Harrells type tuner. I did not play with mine long enough to fully understand it. I hope to test it more this winter.
Any who have shot in ARA Sporter classes in the last five years may have seen some of the John Langley tuned CZ452 sporter rifles with the custom match Rock Creek cut rifled bbls made by Mr. Muller. These were fitted with a fixed weight "so called tuner" to dampen the muzzle vibrations. This was the product of many hours of trial & error, calculations and testing to arrive at the right length and weight to work. But it was still designed for one speed of one mfg's ammo. Still, It would shoot pretty darn well with anything and won the last five seasons of ARA Sporter class for the guy he built it for. The so called tuner is not adjustable and as such is not really a tunable element. The same sort of effect can be had with the little rubber doughnut tuners that slide onto the bbl to dampen vibrations. I have one of those on my little pencil bbl Savage Bmag which contrary to many claims is super accurate for me.
One last experience I will share because it was so profound. I have an old Pre-A model 52 Winchester rifle that came to me with a modern receiver mounted set of scope rings in which I clamped a 6-24x modern scope and used the rifle for tgt practice, hunting and casual rifle matches. It was the most accurate 22 I had ever owned and I thought I was a pretty good shot with it until I competed in a local ARA unlimited benchrest match with it. That was an eye opener!!! I scored last place with what turned out to be pretty respectable (for a stock sporter on sand bags) 1900's for most of the cards. But I was competing with about five guys who were all top 20 in the nation, lol. I went home with my tail between my legs. About a year later, I removed the modern optic from that rifle and installed an old vintage barrel mounted scope which was also a 6-24x optic (BALVar). I was stunned how much better that rifle shot with the old scope clamped onto the bbl. It became as accurate as my Anschutz Super Match which is a supremely accurate rifle. I think that the very long bbl mounted scope acts like a loose bridge which both stiffens the bbl and somewhat dampens its inherent vibrations. It might just be coincidence but it has been a winner many times in our local sporter fun-shoot matches and today most of our top shooters have acquired Winchester 52's as well so they can keep up and last week's winner was shooting a 52C that had a big ole long Unertl 36x mounted onto its bbl
Maybe those old gun makers in the 30's and 40's knew something about building rifles that would shoot?Irish
that is simply , IMHO, not true.
the guys that insist rimfire bbl vibrations are exactly the same are incorrect.
whether you call it a “ stopped muzzle” or some other bullshit term, a great barrel.....once it’s set, you’re done.
far too many world class shooters using the absolute best rifles made never twist a tuner. In my own experience, my guns shoot all year ( 50 deg-90+ deg) everything from 1045fps to 1075 fps and everything in between.
CF different animal, and I shoot 6PPC for group and usually can tune with N133 or LT 32, so I think I know the difference.
i suspect the guys that insist On constantly twisting tuners don't have a decent Tune to begin with.
any time there is one these never ending tuner discussions I always fall back on a a simple example, as an IR50 shooter, how do you explain top flight sporters which, in effect, have a non adjustable tuner on barrel’s end. The good ones shoot lights out cold weather, hot weather, and everywhere in between.
2-3 smiths out there that, combined, have literally dozens of world records with their rifles set them and never touch them.
Lastly, tuners don’t solve thrown shots, etc. Good barrels/ammo don’t do that, marginal ones might, as well as bedding, ignition, scopes, and good, old fashion drivers error.
A tuner on a on a C+ barrel yields a C+ barrel, they refine a good barrel a little bit, if you have really good equipment, we’re talking baby steps here folks, maybe bringing you from, say, 92% to 95%-96% kind of deal.
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I have shot informal BR every week for over 8 years and recently started shooting F-Class - all rimfire. I have found that a tuner definitely helps with vertical . Also I find that with temperature changes ( which affects muzzle velocities) the tuner may need a minuscule adjustment to bring the groups back to size. BUT tuners will not allow poor ammo to shot with premium ammo.
Some may disagree and that is OK, but I find even premium ammo needs t be weight sorted for me to shoot the accuracy needed for he very small NRA F-Class targets.
Some may disagree and that is OK, but I find even premium ammo needs t be weight sorted for me to shoot the accuracy needed for he very small NRA F-Class targets.
MIke, I think a fixed tuner using the correct Purdy Prescription may be an advancement beyond the simple notion of adding weight at the end of a stick. Have you investigated this ? Seymour
Tony’s methodology has worked on lots of rifles and is especially helpful for guys that are distraught at the prospect of tuning.
It, for whatever reason did not do anything for me when I tried it and Tony himself worked through the numbers for me. I was in the general neighborhood but the setting I had was better.
It was surely worth trying though.
