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Rifle Scopes Tunneling - Here's what it looks like.
- Thread starter orkan
- Start date
You should really consider an ior then......you would probably be happier with their performance.
It doesn't matter, I and probably 95% of the other s&b owners have never turned their scope down to below 7x, I don't use my s&b's below 10x, never had a need to. I can do everything I intend to do between 10-25x.
I'm not a scope/glass expert but I'm willing to bet that every scope has a compromise of some sort. I've shot with S&B, Vortex, NightForce, Premier, March, USO, Nikon, Leupold, Kahles, Bushy and some I've forgot.
Pick your purpose and choose accordingly.
R
Pick your purpose and choose accordingly.
R
It doesn't work "just fine" when damn near 10% of the advertised range doesn't work. Just because you never take it down that far doesn't negate the fact that the scope doesn't work correctly at the lower Magnifications.
That's what I'm saying. I was confused as hell the first time I saw that on my S&B - totally useless.
Impressive!! A 3.5K dollar scope and it doesn't even function throughout the design range. Gonna run out and buy a "gold standard" scope. Oh I forgot... It's ok cause they don't use it on the low magnification.
Is this the same thing as eye relief changing with magnification? Put another way, if I move my head closer or further from the scope, will I get the full image without tunneling? In my experience, most variable power scopes have a narrower "window" of eye relief at high power and are more forgiving at lower power. So what you describe as tunneling is the opposite of what I'd expect. If the effect is independant of eye relief, yeah, I'm surprised to see that in such a high dollar scope.
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...ctical-shooters-equipment-what-pros-use-6.htm
I was just looking through this and can any one explain why no one is using the best scope on the market bar none to win any comps? So when is that ior review taking place anxiously waiting the results........
I was just looking through this and can any one explain why no one is using the best scope on the market bar none to win any comps? So when is that ior review taking place anxiously waiting the results........
It has always surprised me that so few people realized that S&B and other scopes do this. That's why I wanted to make the video. Someone should make a list, and have it stickied, which lists all the scopes that tunnel. For guys that hate it (me) it's a question that is almost never answered on a spec sheet.
S&B, IOR, USO, Bushnell, and many others make scopes that tunnel.
S&B, IOR, USO, Bushnell, and many others make scopes that tunnel.
You know, even from an outsider's perspective, you really need to get over your hard on for S&B. Did they insult your wife or kick your dog or something?
I have no dog in the fight and could frankly care less what you think about any scope as you have shown everyone here a huge bias that I am tired of. And I'm tired of seeing you crap over every thread with your disdain for S&B. Please do us all a favor and give it a rest, OK?
I don't own an S&B, and may or may not ever in the future, but for Lord's sake, let it go man! There has got to be something more important to you in this life or at least for your sake I sincerely hope so. Nothing personal...really...I'm just tired of your harping.
Carry on...
I respect that you hate them, but realize that just as many people or perhaps more do not. You've made your point and it's time to move on. It does not help your credibility (IMO) that you are a dealer for competing brands of scopes from those you mention (that you hate).
Just sayin...
BTW..."Hate" seems like a strong term for a piece of glass that nobody is making you use.
You know, even from an outsider's perspective, you really need to get over your hard on for S&B. Did they insult your wife or kick your dog or something?
I have no dog in the fight and could frankly care less what you think about any scope as you have shown everyone here a huge bias that I am tired of. And I'm tired of seeing you crap over every thread with your disdain for S&B. Please do us all a favor and give it a rest, OK?
I don't own an S&B, and may or may not ever in the future, but for Lord's sake, let it go man! There has got to be something more important to you in this life or at least for your sake I sincerely hope so. Nothing personal...really...I'm just tired of your harping.
Carry on...
I have never said I dislike S&B. I would buy one if I could afford one, just not the one that doesn't work as it was designed to. They should have made it a 8-25 or 9-25, but to call it a 5-25 when there is no difference between the 5X, 6X, 7X, 8X, and 9X magnifications is misleading. No bias, no disdain, no hatred. Just observation. If it was just the opposite, if the scopes magnification stopped working at 20X and there was no difference between 20X and 25X people would run from them, they bitch like there was no tomorrow, but somehow because it is on the lower end its "OK"?
I hear you and certainly understand your feelings and opinion. I think that many others here may even agree with you, but so many others do not...and they own the scope in question. So, just perhaps it's not as big a deal as you are making it out to be for everyone.
This is obviously not the scope for you.
There, I've said my piece and am going to let it go, as it's not worth that much agita for me and it doesn't matter that much in the scheme of things.
All I'm asking is that you let it go too, both for your benefit and for those of us that are tired of seeing your constant badgering. Especially since you don't own one. It makes you look...well...kinda silly IMO. Just an observation from one on the outside of this situation. Sort of a piece of friendly advice from someone you do not yet know.
This is obviously not the scope for you.
There, I've said my piece and am going to let it go, as it's not worth that much agita for me and it doesn't matter that much in the scheme of things.
All I'm asking is that you let it go too, both for your benefit and for those of us that are tired of seeing your constant badgering. Especially since you don't own one. It makes you look...well...kinda silly IMO. Just an observation from one on the outside of this situation. Sort of a piece of friendly advice from someone you do not yet know.
If anybody has a lightly used S&B 5-25 CCW mil/mil that CAN'T stand the said "issue", I've got a PH 5-25 or a Stiener 5-25 that I'd go even trade for
I really don't see the issue, FOV is slightly affected (glass still tracks +glass is still clear=rounds still impact target)I could deal with that 7 days of the week. Everybody has to find something to bitch about.
I really don't see the issue, FOV is slightly affected (glass still tracks +glass is still clear=rounds still impact target)I could deal with that 7 days of the week. Everybody has to find something to bitch about.
I hear you and certainly understand your feelings and opinion. I think that many others here may even agree with you, but so many others do not...and they own the scope in question. So, just perhaps it's not as big a deal as you are making it out to be for everyone.
This is obviously not the scope for you.
There, I've said my piece and am going to let it go, as it's not worth that much agita for me and it doesn't matter that much in the scheme of things.
All I'm asking is that you let it go too, both for your benefit and for those of us that are tired of seeing your constant badgering. Especially since you don't own one. It makes you look...well...kinda silly IMO. Just an observation from one on the outside of this situation. Sort of a piece of friendly advice from someone you do not yet know.
Somehow ya'll think this is a S&B rant. My original post in this thread (post # 4) simply said "I would be a mad MOFO if my scope did that". I did not mention any brand by name. I understand the video in post #1 had an example of a S&B with tunneling in it. But it is my understand that many brands of scopes have this issue (post # 16). So the fact that only the S&B crowd got pissed about my comments is an issue they have to deal with. I have nothing to do with it.
Lash, this thread is about tunneling. I hate it. I didn't say a damn thing about hating S&B... ... and lumping me in with phillip? I think you had best calm down a bit and take a step back yourself. We sell bushnell... and some of them tunnel... so your argument has absolutely no weight what so ever, even if it did fit in this thread... which it doesn't. You want to bash on phillip for dragging S&B crap into this thread... fine. ... but don't go putting words in my mouth.
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Most here are crazy, they been doing that for a while. Know what your going to buy before you buy it. Its a FFP thing. Not everyone wants ffp but that don't mean you need to rant about about cause someone elses scope does it. Yeah, it doesn't help much that it tunnels but look at what your getting with FFP for the rest of the time. If you don't like it then don't buy it. Pretty simple. A lot of people here just bash something because they know everything when in reality they didn't know anything at all.
Lets put it in to context! Lets look at the field of view of some of the 5-25 there abouts scopes out there
Field of view in ft on lowest x mag @ 100
USO 5-25x58 17 ft @100
NXS 5.5-22x50 17.5 ft @ 100
Beast 5-25x56 18.7 ft @ 100
Hensoldt 6-24x56 20 ft @100
Vortex Razor 5-20x50 22 ft @100
Kahles 624i 22.3 ft @100
S&B PMII 5-25x56 22.5 ft @100
Steiner 5-25x56 23.6 ft @100
Premier 5-25x56 24.9 ft @100
Vortex GenII 4.7-27x56 25.3 ft @100
The S&B isn't the worst but is probably the oldest scope design there still the envy of all scope manufacturers!!!
None of them are Wanker Proof!
Field of view in ft on lowest x mag @ 100
USO 5-25x58 17 ft @100
NXS 5.5-22x50 17.5 ft @ 100
Beast 5-25x56 18.7 ft @ 100
Hensoldt 6-24x56 20 ft @100
Vortex Razor 5-20x50 22 ft @100
Kahles 624i 22.3 ft @100
S&B PMII 5-25x56 22.5 ft @100
Steiner 5-25x56 23.6 ft @100
Premier 5-25x56 24.9 ft @100
Vortex GenII 4.7-27x56 25.3 ft @100
The S&B isn't the worst but is probably the oldest scope design there still the envy of all scope manufacturers!!!
None of them are Wanker Proof!
See, that must be why people still love em. But they tunnel NOooooooooo LOL. My DMR tunnels all the way from 3.5 to 5x If they called it a 5-21 no one would care LOL
Both my Mark 6 and my USO don't tunnel or i have yet to notice it. I've only ahd the Leupold for a couple of weeks. The SN-3 for almost five years gonna go look through it.
Please read my post....all of them. I did not mention S&B. I did not drag any brand into this thread. I just said I would be mad if my scope tunneled. Plain and simple. If the self esteem of the S&B crowd is so fragile that the mere mention of tunneling makes them automatically think you are talking about them then that is an issue that they must address on a personal level.
On a side note.....thanks a lot Orkan. Nothin' like throwing a brother under the bus.
Between this comment mentioning "spent that much" and the other thread, everyone knows you're specifically talking about S&B. Trying to say you're not... Bullshit.
I keep a pretty open mind when it comes to threads like this, and I mute out the noise when one person talks so much shit about how their favorite brand is heads and shoulders above the others when it costs half as much... Whatever. But dude, you take it to a new level.
I swear the Optics Forum is becoming full with as many bitches and fan boys as the Night Vision Forum.
ETA: [MENTION=20064]orkan[/MENTION], this is not directed at you. Fact is fact, personal preference is just that too. I don't mind bottom end tunneling, but if I can find an optically and durability superior scope to a PMII 5-25x56 on the top end at a comparable price that doesn't have it, I will buy it. I haven't found one yet, but trust me, I'm still keeping my eye out.
I still want to see a BEAST.
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Orkan: is this something in a scope design or something that can be attributed to a single scope?
Ex: just because my scope does this, will a different sample of the same model do the same thing?
(I use more of the low end of my scope than the top end. Just because the scope CAN go up to 24x doesn't mean I need it to. Actually it hurts me, as with my G2 reticle it cuts off usable reticle (being a FFP and all).)
Ex: just because my scope does this, will a different sample of the same model do the same thing?
(I use more of the low end of my scope than the top end. Just because the scope CAN go up to 24x doesn't mean I need it to. Actually it hurts me, as with my G2 reticle it cuts off usable reticle (being a FFP and all).)
Dude when you are as poor as I am "spending that much" could mean anything above $1000.00. What is however "Taken to a whole new level" is that when the S&B crowd even slightly thinks you may be referring to a S&B scope they will break their fingers typing a negative reply. Typing in all caps and cussing, calling people names, I mean....Really.
People talk crap about IOR's all the time, it doesn't phase me a bit. Different people make different choices based on different views and needs. "I" understand that.
Stephen Covey (the author of seven habits of highly effective people) says we have two ways to spend our time. 1. Spending it in our circle of Influence. 2. Spending it in our circle of concern. Things in our circle of influence is those things we have direct influence over. Those things we "can" change. Things in our circle of concern is those things that while we may be concerned about them we cannot change them and therefore we should not spend our time in this circle.
If I spent $1500.00 on an IOR that tunneled, I would be a mad MOFO.
And nobody has defined " does not work " . Does the scope not track there , does the reticule dimensions change , does the glass get all blurry ? What makes it unusable at 5 - 7 X ?
This thread is turning into an extension of the S&B imploding thread found elsewhere.... Thanks to orkan for showing us what tunneling is, many of us didnt know or thought it was something else so it is great to see a video actually showing it in full effect. This is why i love this websight, especially the scope section because it can teach so much to us without a lot of scope experience. Lastly, lets all be real, if money wasnt a concern nobody would want an IOR over a S&B. Now a debate on the BEAST compared to S&B...but thats for another day and a totally different thread.
Idiots are usually the first to get thrown under the bus. First you stir up shit in the other thread and now here. Carefully little guy, you might get another "vacation".
Again, contribute to this thread. IF you want to do research and create a list of scopes that tunnel, work with someone and then post it. Stop it with the anti-S&B rant, just like in the other thread. Yawn...
i can agree to that 100%. If money was not an concern we would all be shooting the most expensive scopes, why wouldn't we? But for a guy like me $2000 is a ton of money and really strains the funds. Hence the reason I bought a used scope for $1500. But even with a used IOR I don't get mad and upset when others post negative things. It is their right not to like any scope. It really surprises me when some resort to All caps and cussing and name calling over a scope. If someone was talking about your wife or your dog...maybe, but to get that upset over a scope?
Mention "tunneling" to anyone living out in Seattle and their first thought is the $80 Million tunnel boring machine that's been stuck under their city for the last two months.
1/10th of the way through the project and it can't dig 2 feet without overheating.
1/10th of the way through the project and it can't dig 2 feet without overheating.
The ignorance of people who don't own one or have used one posting about it just to stir shit.(Not you Orkan) That's all. Works just fine at those powers.
Your words say one thing, your actions and behavior (multitudes of posts garbling up real conversation, all in defense of your IOR scope which you seem VERY emotionally attached to the purchase) certainly say another. Dang it sucks dating a Therapist...
Never read it, I was too busy being effective.
Anyone that is that bothered by inefficient performance of their S&B in a spectrum you never use but can't get over it, please go read this thread and give the OP your OCD sharing support: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...refused-my-approved-form-4-silencer-shop.html
Anyone else who has a legitimate need for the bottom end lack of tunneling and wants to unload their 5-25, I'll trade you straight up for my NIB S&B 3-20x50 PMII H2CMR CCW MTC, and you can have a blast with it with a wide FOV at 3-7x. H2CMR or MSR reticles and CCW DT only.
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Thanks for the video Orkan.
To all;
The most obvious dichotomy's about optical sights I've learned over the years reading on this site and others are...
Price does not mean overall perfection by any stretch of the imagination or negate the possible need for a trip back to the manufacturer but the overall quality and subtlety's of fit, finish and feel are apparent on a expensive scope. Yes this is a case of diminishing returns but too me worth the extra money.
Optical sights are a juggling act between various optical and mechanical compromises. One attribute may be awesome but takes away from something else at the same time.
Very few if any rifle scopes have all the features together a individual deems most important to them. Such is life.
Too some the tunneling issue is unthinkable to others of no concern. Personally If I wanted a FFP scope that I expected to be using on the lower powders often it wouldn't be a 5-??x?? and it wouldn't have a thin reticle which is best suited for a higher mag scope.
To all;
The most obvious dichotomy's about optical sights I've learned over the years reading on this site and others are...
Price does not mean overall perfection by any stretch of the imagination or negate the possible need for a trip back to the manufacturer but the overall quality and subtlety's of fit, finish and feel are apparent on a expensive scope. Yes this is a case of diminishing returns but too me worth the extra money.
Optical sights are a juggling act between various optical and mechanical compromises. One attribute may be awesome but takes away from something else at the same time.
Very few if any rifle scopes have all the features together a individual deems most important to them. Such is life.
Too some the tunneling issue is unthinkable to others of no concern. Personally If I wanted a FFP scope that I expected to be using on the lower powders often it wouldn't be a 5-??x?? and it wouldn't have a thin reticle which is best suited for a higher mag scope.
Yeah it was a rhetorical question that they still refuse to answer . The only problem I've got with my 5 - 25 is coming up with the cash to rotate my other stuff out and get 2 more of them .
TheBelly, this is a design issue. It's not a quality control issue that can be attributed to a single specimen. All S&B 5-25's exhibit this behavior, as do all IOR 3-18's, 2.5-10's, USO 3.2-17's, and many other scopes. It is model specific. The S&B 5-25's tunnel, but some of their other scopes do not.
It's a marketing issue. If S&B came to the table with a 7.25-25, their sales would hurt. So instead they push the optical design beyond it's capabilities by using masking, and compromise with the tunneling effect in order to say they have a 5-25. When I interviewed John W. III at U.S. Optics a couple years ago, I asked him directly why the USO 3.2-17 isn't just a 5-17. His direct response was, "marketing." They can say they have a wider magnification range than some competitors, when in reality, there is no benefit from lowering the magnification past the point where it tunnels.
The only legitimate reason to reduce magnification in the lower end of the spectrum is to achieve more FOV. Thus, to say that a scope that tunnels is equally capable as a scope that does not, is simply not factual. For someone to buy a scope that tunnels, and be perfectly OK with the compromise, is a matter of personal preference, but the facts do not change simply because they are OK with the compromise.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but... if S&B or anyone produced a 5-25 that does not tunnel, would people pay the same price for the scopes that do tunnel? I think not. The scopes that tunneled would lose value. No doubt about it.
We will see soon. The Beast does not tunnel. I don't think the Beast not tunneling will have any effect on S&B sells. I think the Beast price will hurt sell's for S&B, especially after their price hike takes effect. I have the S&B and it does not bother me because like others have, said I am never below 8x. People need to understand that S&B 5-25 was designed around 10 years ago. The design has not changed. I would imagine that if they felt it was an issue they would have updated it by now.
I was referencing the same company producing a different scope, as an "upgrade" as it were... not a competitor with a competing product.
If S&B released a new 5-25 which did not tunnel, and all other features were the same, you would pay the same money for each scope? ... or would you expect to pay less for the model that tunneled? My guess is the new model that did not tunnel would cost more, as that would put them on equal footing with other manufacturers in terms of true magnification ratio.
Here's an exercise: List all other scopes with 5x or more magnification range which do not tunnel.
The argument that "I never go below X magnification" does have value, but it does not change the fact that there would be nothing gained even if you did go below the magnification where the tunneling began. On a scope that does not tunnel, you continue to have the FOV increase as you go down through the magnification range. That could provide a benefit which is worth it to some people. So in the case of the S&B in question, you paid for a 5-25, but received a 7.25-25. That is a fact, rather than opinion. I have no issue with anyone that overlooks this compromise. It's a very personal choice.
If S&B released a new 5-25 which did not tunnel, and all other features were the same, you would pay the same money for each scope? ... or would you expect to pay less for the model that tunneled? My guess is the new model that did not tunnel would cost more, as that would put them on equal footing with other manufacturers in terms of true magnification ratio.
Here's an exercise: List all other scopes with 5x or more magnification range which do not tunnel.
The argument that "I never go below X magnification" does have value, but it does not change the fact that there would be nothing gained even if you did go below the magnification where the tunneling began. On a scope that does not tunnel, you continue to have the FOV increase as you go down through the magnification range. That could provide a benefit which is worth it to some people. So in the case of the S&B in question, you paid for a 5-25, but received a 7.25-25. That is a fact, rather than opinion. I have no issue with anyone that overlooks this compromise. It's a very personal choice.
Even with the tunneling the S&B 5-25 gives up nothing to its competition in regards to field of view @ 100 on 5x magnification
Field of view in ft on lowest x mag @ 100
USO 5-25x58 17 ft @100
NXS 5.5-22x50 17.5 ft @ 100
Beast 5-25x56 18.7 ft @ 100
Hensoldt 6-24x56 20 ft @100
Vortex Razor 5-20x50 22 ft @100
Kahles 624i 22.3 ft @100
S&B PMII 5-25x56 22.5 ft @100
Steiner 5-25x56 23.6 ft @100
Premier 5-25x56 24.9 ft @100
Vortex GenII 4.7-27x56 25.3 ft @100
Field of view in ft on lowest x mag @ 100
USO 5-25x58 17 ft @100
NXS 5.5-22x50 17.5 ft @ 100
Beast 5-25x56 18.7 ft @ 100
Hensoldt 6-24x56 20 ft @100
Vortex Razor 5-20x50 22 ft @100
Kahles 624i 22.3 ft @100
S&B PMII 5-25x56 22.5 ft @100
Steiner 5-25x56 23.6 ft @100
Premier 5-25x56 24.9 ft @100
Vortex GenII 4.7-27x56 25.3 ft @100
List a 5-25 scope that was built over 10yrs ago, that can be compared the the S&B PMII 5-25?
The PMII 5-25 was built to give the operator the best features to hunt humans!!! Thats what it was built for
And in 10 years all scope manufactures have been building scopes to better the PMII 5-25, and with a platform to copy not pioneer and advancements in technology they still haven't!! But are close
The PMII 5-25 was built to give the operator the best features to hunt humans!!! Thats what it was built for
And in 10 years all scope manufactures have been building scopes to better the PMII 5-25, and with a platform to copy not pioneer and advancements in technology they still haven't!! But are close
