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Turning the necks...
- Thread starter Judd
- Start date
Re: Turning the necks...
The vast majority of reloaders do not turn necks. Those who do are usually looking for exceptional accuracy. It's not hard to do if you have the proper equipment, just another step in the brass prep process. If you decide to do it I'd suggest purchasing a concentricity gage as well so you can see what is going on with your rounds.
The vast majority of reloaders do not turn necks. Those who do are usually looking for exceptional accuracy. It's not hard to do if you have the proper equipment, just another step in the brass prep process. If you decide to do it I'd suggest purchasing a concentricity gage as well so you can see what is going on with your rounds.
Re: Turning the necks...
I tried turning necks 10 years ago, and if there was any improvement, I could not see it in 1" 5 shot groups at 100 yards.
Maybe some bench rest guy on a windless day gets down from .25" to .24" and is sure it made a difference, but it is down in the noise for me.
I am going to start doing it again so I can shoot necked down small primer 308 Lapua brass in a 260 or 243 at 85kpsi.
I tried turning necks 10 years ago, and if there was any improvement, I could not see it in 1" 5 shot groups at 100 yards.
Maybe some bench rest guy on a windless day gets down from .25" to .24" and is sure it made a difference, but it is down in the noise for me.
I am going to start doing it again so I can shoot necked down small primer 308 Lapua brass in a 260 or 243 at 85kpsi.
Re: Turning the necks...
A turned neck will improve your concentricity. will u see the difference on paper at 100 yds? probably not. will you see a difference at 300 and beyond? Yes. Making the best ammo you can is like buying the best rifle you can afford. When i go to a competition its a big confidence builder to know i have perfect ammo to run thru a great rifle which leaves no doubt in my mind that when i make a bad shot it was me.
A turned neck will improve your concentricity. will u see the difference on paper at 100 yds? probably not. will you see a difference at 300 and beyond? Yes. Making the best ammo you can is like buying the best rifle you can afford. When i go to a competition its a big confidence builder to know i have perfect ammo to run thru a great rifle which leaves no doubt in my mind that when i make a bad shot it was me.
Re: Turning the necks...
Buy better brass. Turning is time wasted on brass that likely has more issues than just off necks. "Sweat Equity" does not really work out here. This is not benchrest.
Buy better brass. Turning is time wasted on brass that likely has more issues than just off necks. "Sweat Equity" does not really work out here. This is not benchrest.
Re: Turning the necks...
If the brass is crappy, and varies within a single piece by more than 0.001 between thick and thin sections, then I would clean it up. Potentially the same answer if the lot of brass has pieces that are more than 0.001 thou difference between thick and thin pieces. Or you can simply sort the brass by the various neck thickness and run them in lots.
If you are running a factory chamber or loose tactical chamber (more than 3 or 4 thou neck clearance), turning will be largely a waste of your time anyway, but I do not think it hurts anything.
I have 2 no-turn chamber rifles that I do not turn or even clean necks of the brass. I have several tight neck rifles where I must turn the brass. Both of my no-turn rifles (Warner 6x47L and KMW 7WSM) shoot every bit as good as my tight-necked rifles.
Jeffvn
If the brass is crappy, and varies within a single piece by more than 0.001 between thick and thin sections, then I would clean it up. Potentially the same answer if the lot of brass has pieces that are more than 0.001 thou difference between thick and thin pieces. Or you can simply sort the brass by the various neck thickness and run them in lots.
If you are running a factory chamber or loose tactical chamber (more than 3 or 4 thou neck clearance), turning will be largely a waste of your time anyway, but I do not think it hurts anything.
I have 2 no-turn chamber rifles that I do not turn or even clean necks of the brass. I have several tight neck rifles where I must turn the brass. Both of my no-turn rifles (Warner 6x47L and KMW 7WSM) shoot every bit as good as my tight-necked rifles.
Jeffvn
Re: Turning the necks...
Clark,
You won't have to turn much to get even necks on the little bit of Lapua Palma brass I've fooled with. If you do end up running at those pressure levels, let me know. I'd certainly like to run some heavy bullet .308 loads at something less than those levels.
Thanks,
DocB
Clark,
You won't have to turn much to get even necks on the little bit of Lapua Palma brass I've fooled with. If you do end up running at those pressure levels, let me know. I'd certainly like to run some heavy bullet .308 loads at something less than those levels.
Thanks,
DocB
Re: Turning the necks...
For those of you who are using bushing dies how do you get consistent neck tension withOut makIng sure your necks are consistant?
I only have the option of Hornady brass so I can't switch brass (6.5 Creedmoor). They aren't bad but I notice as I seat the bullets I don't have the same resistance across all the shells. I believe it is causing some velocity variances too.
The only option I could think of was going to the tighter bushing, besides turning the necks. But I thought I would still have the inconsisantcies (sp?) and not solve my problem.
Thanks guys.
For those of you who are using bushing dies how do you get consistent neck tension withOut makIng sure your necks are consistant?
I only have the option of Hornady brass so I can't switch brass (6.5 Creedmoor). They aren't bad but I notice as I seat the bullets I don't have the same resistance across all the shells. I believe it is causing some velocity variances too.
The only option I could think of was going to the tighter bushing, besides turning the necks. But I thought I would still have the inconsisantcies (sp?) and not solve my problem.
Thanks guys.
Re: Turning the necks...
Some of the inconsistency will also be the work hardening of the brass over time. Annealing the case neck/shoulder is what fixes that. There are many ways to do it - I do mine with a drill/socket and torch. Do a search if you are interested. It is one of those things that will show better on a target face.
Some of the inconsistency will also be the work hardening of the brass over time. Annealing the case neck/shoulder is what fixes that. There are many ways to do it - I do mine with a drill/socket and torch. Do a search if you are interested. It is one of those things that will show better on a target face.
Re: Turning the necks...
I turn my necks, I do because I only use Winchester 7-08 or 243 brass in my 260Rem, now that I have been doing for a while I have noticed the concentricity of loaded rounds is nil, a slight improvement at short ranges, and a big improvement at long range, .0135 is my cutting depth, some necks get turned all the way around, most the high spots are cut, I would estimate most get 50-70% cut, IMHO it's a lot of work, but not a waste of time. I use a 21st Century Shooting System Neck Turner, with a cheap RCBS ball mic, Imperial Sizing Wax as my lube, setup was very easy for a beginner turner, buy the kit and the price on the web site is delivered.
http://www.21stcenturyshooting.com/Neck_Turning_Tool_Kit.php
I turn my necks, I do because I only use Winchester 7-08 or 243 brass in my 260Rem, now that I have been doing for a while I have noticed the concentricity of loaded rounds is nil, a slight improvement at short ranges, and a big improvement at long range, .0135 is my cutting depth, some necks get turned all the way around, most the high spots are cut, I would estimate most get 50-70% cut, IMHO it's a lot of work, but not a waste of time. I use a 21st Century Shooting System Neck Turner, with a cheap RCBS ball mic, Imperial Sizing Wax as my lube, setup was very easy for a beginner turner, buy the kit and the price on the web site is delivered.
http://www.21stcenturyshooting.com/Neck_Turning_Tool_Kit.php
Re: Turning the necks...
It is difficult to give a blanket answer to the question when there are several motivations. It's yes and no and even maybe.
I have a few rifles with a tight neck and turning is required. Is it beneficial on a factory chamber with a tactical application? Perhaps? For plain vanilla stuff, most gas guns, etc. (in my opinion) neck turning is probably unnecessary, but on the other hand, it won't hurt anything either, if it makes you feel good. I do not think it has no application except benchrest. Myself, I do it for precision live targets. But, there are other valid reasons.
So, you have to separate the pepper from the flyshit and that's why this:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Reading mixed reviews on whether it is very beneficial.</div></div>
BB
It is difficult to give a blanket answer to the question when there are several motivations. It's yes and no and even maybe.
I have a few rifles with a tight neck and turning is required. Is it beneficial on a factory chamber with a tactical application? Perhaps? For plain vanilla stuff, most gas guns, etc. (in my opinion) neck turning is probably unnecessary, but on the other hand, it won't hurt anything either, if it makes you feel good. I do not think it has no application except benchrest. Myself, I do it for precision live targets. But, there are other valid reasons.
So, you have to separate the pepper from the flyshit and that's why this:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Reading mixed reviews on whether it is very beneficial.</div></div>
BB
Re: Turning the necks...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Judd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For those of you who are using bushing dies how do you get consistent neck tension withOut makIng sure your necks are consistant?
</div></div>
The Redding bushing FL die has the option of using an expander ball. I replaced the standard ball with the floating carbide ball and get very consistant seating tension and runout. The bushing allows me to only size the neck enough to finish off with the expander ball and reduces excessive working of the brass.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Judd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For those of you who are using bushing dies how do you get consistent neck tension withOut makIng sure your necks are consistant?
</div></div>
The Redding bushing FL die has the option of using an expander ball. I replaced the standard ball with the floating carbide ball and get very consistant seating tension and runout. The bushing allows me to only size the neck enough to finish off with the expander ball and reduces excessive working of the brass.
Re: Turning the necks...
Vinconco, can you explain your setup a little more, please? I've been reading all I can find before purchasing my first set of dies and it seems like I should get either a Forster (or Redding) bushing die or a Lee collet neck die. From what I've read it sounds like the Lee die gives a concentric inner diameter and the bushing dies give a concentric outer diameter but you only get one or the other unless the neck thickness is completely uniform.
I don't want to get into neck turning. I'm using Lapua cases so I expect that the necks are fairly consistent and maybe it doesn't matter if I size from the inside or outside but your post is the first I've seen where someone seems to be possibly controlling the inside and outside diameters at the same time. Am I right? If so, does this stretch the neck more and require more frequent trimming?
My specifics so far: I've gotten a Hornady LNL AP and a standalone decapping die to use before tumbling in stainless media before doing any sizing. I plan to use a funnel over the powder station and a Forster ultra seating die. I'm usually shooting 400 yards right now.
Thank you for any additional information.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vinconco</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Judd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For those of you who are using bushing dies how do you get consistent neck tension withOut makIng sure your necks are consistant?
</div></div>
The Redding bushing FL die has the option of using an expander ball. I replaced the standard ball with the floating carbide ball and get very consistant seating tension and runout. The bushing allows me to only size the neck enough to finish off with the expander ball and reduces excessive working of the brass. </div></div>
Vinconco, can you explain your setup a little more, please? I've been reading all I can find before purchasing my first set of dies and it seems like I should get either a Forster (or Redding) bushing die or a Lee collet neck die. From what I've read it sounds like the Lee die gives a concentric inner diameter and the bushing dies give a concentric outer diameter but you only get one or the other unless the neck thickness is completely uniform.
I don't want to get into neck turning. I'm using Lapua cases so I expect that the necks are fairly consistent and maybe it doesn't matter if I size from the inside or outside but your post is the first I've seen where someone seems to be possibly controlling the inside and outside diameters at the same time. Am I right? If so, does this stretch the neck more and require more frequent trimming?
My specifics so far: I've gotten a Hornady LNL AP and a standalone decapping die to use before tumbling in stainless media before doing any sizing. I plan to use a funnel over the powder station and a Forster ultra seating die. I'm usually shooting 400 yards right now.
Thank you for any additional information.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vinconco</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Judd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For those of you who are using bushing dies how do you get consistent neck tension withOut makIng sure your necks are consistant?
</div></div>
The Redding bushing FL die has the option of using an expander ball. I replaced the standard ball with the floating carbide ball and get very consistant seating tension and runout. The bushing allows me to only size the neck enough to finish off with the expander ball and reduces excessive working of the brass. </div></div>
Re: Turning the necks...
It's very simple in practice, by selecting the correct size bushing, and not jerking the floating expander back through, but letting it rest gently on the neck junction then pulling it through the it barely touches the inside of the neck, Monte gets the credit for this, even with my neck turned brass I still use the floating carbide ball.
It's very simple in practice, by selecting the correct size bushing, and not jerking the floating expander back through, but letting it rest gently on the neck junction then pulling it through the it barely touches the inside of the neck, Monte gets the credit for this, even with my neck turned brass I still use the floating carbide ball.
Re: Turning the necks...
I watched a guy shoot a 3 inch group at 1000 yards and he doesnt
turn brass. It was a fluke on a calm day but I see guys that don't turn necks shoot sub 1 1/2" at 500 yards frequently with benchrest rigs. Some guys are even barely skimming the necks just to eliminate high spots. If you don't do it right it can make things alot worse too.
I watched a guy shoot a 3 inch group at 1000 yards and he doesnt
turn brass. It was a fluke on a calm day but I see guys that don't turn necks shoot sub 1 1/2" at 500 yards frequently with benchrest rigs. Some guys are even barely skimming the necks just to eliminate high spots. If you don't do it right it can make things alot worse too.
Re: Turning the necks...
nauta;
The lee collet die does a great job neck sizing and should work great with Laupa brass. What it doesn’t do is set back the shoulder which is beneficial for consistency and easy chambering.
The Redding Type S FL bushing die allows you to control the neck size and the amount of FL sizing you do. Selecting the proper size bushing for your brass allows you to control how much you size the neck without oversizing it. Redding also offers a carbide size button kit which floats on the stem allowing for better alignment and requires no lubrication. I use the bushing to size the neck down to about .002 smaller than the ball. The ball brings the neck ID back to a consistent and uniform diameter regardless of the neck wall thickness variations.
Another good addition to this setup would be the Hornady headspace gauge which you would use to set your FL die. Setting the shoulder back is what causes the case to grow and need trimming. Using the gauge will allow you to set the shoulder back no more than absolutely necessary which will reduce the need for trimming.
Also, knowing the length of your chamber will give you a measurement based on your actual chamber length to set your trim length to. The Sinclair chamber length gauge works great to give you this measurement which is usually a lot longer than the SAAMI spec in the reloading manual.
nauta;
The lee collet die does a great job neck sizing and should work great with Laupa brass. What it doesn’t do is set back the shoulder which is beneficial for consistency and easy chambering.
The Redding Type S FL bushing die allows you to control the neck size and the amount of FL sizing you do. Selecting the proper size bushing for your brass allows you to control how much you size the neck without oversizing it. Redding also offers a carbide size button kit which floats on the stem allowing for better alignment and requires no lubrication. I use the bushing to size the neck down to about .002 smaller than the ball. The ball brings the neck ID back to a consistent and uniform diameter regardless of the neck wall thickness variations.
Another good addition to this setup would be the Hornady headspace gauge which you would use to set your FL die. Setting the shoulder back is what causes the case to grow and need trimming. Using the gauge will allow you to set the shoulder back no more than absolutely necessary which will reduce the need for trimming.
Also, knowing the length of your chamber will give you a measurement based on your actual chamber length to set your trim length to. The Sinclair chamber length gauge works great to give you this measurement which is usually a lot longer than the SAAMI spec in the reloading manual.
Re: Turning the necks...
Thanks for the help, vinconco. I have Type-S FL die and the carbide expander on the way (brunoshooters.com seemed to be the best deal for anyone that is interested). I paired it a Forster seater for now and I'll look into the headspace and chamber size tools you mentioned next.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vinconco</div><div class="ubbcode-body">nauta;
The lee collet die does a great job neck sizing and should work great with Laupa brass. What it doesn’t do is set back the shoulder which is beneficial for consistency and easy chambering.
The Redding Type S FL bushing die allows you to control the neck size and the amount of FL sizing you do. Selecting the proper size bushing for your brass allows you to control how much you size the neck without oversizing it. Redding also offers a carbide size button kit which floats on the stem allowing for better alignment and requires no lubrication. I use the bushing to size the neck down to about .002 smaller than the ball. The ball brings the neck ID back to a consistent and uniform diameter regardless of the neck wall thickness variations.
Another good addition to this setup would be the Hornady headspace gauge which you would use to set your FL die. Setting the shoulder back is what causes the case to grow and need trimming. Using the gauge will allow you to set the shoulder back no more than absolutely necessary which will reduce the need for trimming.
Also, knowing the length of your chamber will give you a measurement based on your actual chamber length to set your trim length to. The Sinclair chamber length gauge works great to give you this measurement which is usually a lot longer than the SAAMI spec in the reloading manual.
</div></div>
Thanks for the help, vinconco. I have Type-S FL die and the carbide expander on the way (brunoshooters.com seemed to be the best deal for anyone that is interested). I paired it a Forster seater for now and I'll look into the headspace and chamber size tools you mentioned next.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vinconco</div><div class="ubbcode-body">nauta;
The lee collet die does a great job neck sizing and should work great with Laupa brass. What it doesn’t do is set back the shoulder which is beneficial for consistency and easy chambering.
The Redding Type S FL bushing die allows you to control the neck size and the amount of FL sizing you do. Selecting the proper size bushing for your brass allows you to control how much you size the neck without oversizing it. Redding also offers a carbide size button kit which floats on the stem allowing for better alignment and requires no lubrication. I use the bushing to size the neck down to about .002 smaller than the ball. The ball brings the neck ID back to a consistent and uniform diameter regardless of the neck wall thickness variations.
Another good addition to this setup would be the Hornady headspace gauge which you would use to set your FL die. Setting the shoulder back is what causes the case to grow and need trimming. Using the gauge will allow you to set the shoulder back no more than absolutely necessary which will reduce the need for trimming.
Also, knowing the length of your chamber will give you a measurement based on your actual chamber length to set your trim length to. The Sinclair chamber length gauge works great to give you this measurement which is usually a lot longer than the SAAMI spec in the reloading manual.
</div></div>
Re: Turning the necks...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Judd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So does everyone turn the necks automatically to make sure all your brass has a uniform neck or do you not mess with it?
Reading mixed reviews on whether it is very beneficial. </div></div>
Id only turn necks if I had a tight necked 6PPC.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Judd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So does everyone turn the necks automatically to make sure all your brass has a uniform neck or do you not mess with it?
Reading mixed reviews on whether it is very beneficial. </div></div>
Id only turn necks if I had a tight necked 6PPC.
