Advanced Marksmanship Two shots together and then one away

[mdesign]

Might not be the right forum but what can a shooter be doing that consistently causes two shots to hit together and then the 3rd hits away? Is it cheek weld, grip, trigger....?

I was out at the range the other day and got to working with a new shooter who had this problem. At first I thought it was his gun and I still think it is because it did the same when I shot it but not as bad. I let him shoot my rifle and he had the same results, two together and one away while it shoots good groups for me.

Just looking, his form did not seem bad...what could he be doing that causes this?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Two shots together and then one away

The rifle just doesn't like him and decides to ruin his group with a flyer.

 

[padronanniversary]

Re: Two shots together and then one away

that's my problem too. I shoot 9 perfect, then my rifle blows it for me with that last flyer.

 

[mdesign]

Re: Two shots together and then one away

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The rifle just doesn't like him and decides to ruin his group with a flyer. </div></div>

Dumb rifle...maybe if he changed his cologne.

 

[Chadwick122689]

Re: Two shots together and then one away

Usually if I put 4 (or 2 in your case) together and then blow the last shot, it's me thinking about how good an awesome group target is going to look hanging above my loading bench ha... But I'm not the most focused sometimes either...

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Two shots together and then one away

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mdesign</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Might not be the right forum but what can a shooter be doing that consistently causes two shots to hit together and then the 3rd hits away? Is it cheek weld, grip, trigger....?

I was out at the range the other day and got to working with a new shooter who had this problem. At first I thought it was his gun and I still think it is because it did the same when I shot it but not as bad. I let him shoot my rifle and he had the same results, two together and one away while it shoots good groups for me.

Just looking, his form did not seem bad...what could he be doing that causes this?</div></div>

As Meat Loaf once said,"two out of three ain't bad".

 

[jagged77]

Re: Two shots together and then one away

Tell him to shoot the practical dot target, much more fun, less frustrating than chasing one hole groups and helps improve skills.

 

[kentactic]

Re: Two shots together and then one away

sounds like rushing your last shot with excitment. i only ever shoot paper at 100 yards when i need to confirm zero.. ill shoot maybe 2 or so and then i shoot steel from then on out. for me its not fun to constantly be pressuring yourself to shoot amazing groups. although it is good practice. but i prefer my rounds be spent learning to read wind etc.

 

[HillbillyfromAL]

Re: Two shots together and then one away

Tell him to start shooting 3 groups of 2

 

[longrange1947]

Re: Two shots together and then one away

Put five pastes on a sheet of paper and copy it. Have him shot one shot on each pastee. Then mark each shot onto a single pastee. This will give him a group without the pressure of making a "good group".

He is probably looking at the last shots and deciding he WILL put the last shot in the same hole, which guantees that he will not. If his five shots are good as a group, then have him try shooting a five shot group on one paste adn watch his performance as far as eye, shoulder, finger, wrist, etc and see if he forces any shots.

I find three round groups wasted and only shot five round groups. It forces me to concentrate through the whole exercise and it will tell me when I screw up.

Actually I shot a .308 moa group everytime........ unitl I shoot that dam second round.

My 2 cents.

 

[pappy42]

Re: Two shots together and then one away

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: longrange1947</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Put five pastes on a sheet of paper and copy it. Have him shot one shot on each pastee. Then mark each shot onto a single pastee. This will give him a group without the pressure of making a "good group".

He is probably looking at the last shots and deciding he WILL put the last shot in the same hole, which guantees that he will not. If his five shots are good as a group, then have him try shooting a five shot group on one paste adn watch his performance as far as eye, shoulder, finger, wrist, etc and see if he forces any shots.

I find three round groups wasted and only shot five round groups. It forces me to concentrate through the whole exercise and it will tell me when I screw up.

Actually I shot a .308 moa group everytime........ unitl I shoot that dam second round.

My 2 cents. </div></div>

Great post especially the last line. Those pesky second, third, etc. shots do screw up what could be a screamer.

 

[CMH]

Re: Two shots together and then one away

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: longrange1947</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Actually I shot a .308 moa group everytime........ unitl I shoot that dam second round. </div></div>

.308* 1.047 InPHY/MOA * 1000 Yards = that's a 3.22" hole at 1000 yards!

 

[mdesign]

Re: Two shots together and then one away

lr1947....good thoughts there, I'll have to give it a try.

Yeah, my groups open up after the first shot too.

 

[criz123]

Re: Two shots together and then one away

what kind of rifle is it?
I had the same problem with all of my semi autos. It was a cadence issue where I had a cold barrel on the 1st shot (ok) warm 2-4 shots (good) and the 5th shot (flyer) I concentrated extra hard and spent more time getting my crosshairs exactly perfect while the bullet sat and cooked in the chamber. I fixed my cadence and while im not getting super small one hole groups I am getting very respectable 1/2-3/4 min 5 shot groups on a fairly regular basis.

 

[Quickdraw40]

Re: Two shots together and then one away

how many rounds and what caliber. i've seen shot out barrels do this. $0.02

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Two shots together and then one away

All,

Shoot more than three shots. Warm it up. Typically, in LR, I'll shoot at least 8 sighters, just to better assure the barrel has warped about as much as it's going to.

 

[CMH]

Re: Two shots together and then one away

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All,

Shoot more than three shots. Warm it up. Typically, in LR, I'll shoot at least 8 sighters, just to better assure the barrel has warped about as much as it's going to. </div></div>

I have a pencil barrel Winchester Featherweight 243 that was doing the same thing as OP is reporting. I kept trying to shoot it either cold or warm. Amazingly to me, it shoots way better real warm to hot - of 20 shots in 10 minutes, that last half shot way better than the first half. Conventional wisdom that I have always heard is that hot barrels do not shoot as well. I have at least one exception that proves the rule.

 

[mdesign]

Re: Two shots together and then one away

It was an older 700 in 30-06, nothing fancy but he told me it had been pillar bedded. I do think that the rifle/load were part of his problem but when I let him shoot my rifle and he got the same results, it made me wonder.

Cadence could be part of it but it was not a cold bore shot by any means.

 

[vman]

Re: Two shots together and then one away

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The rifle just doesn't like him and decides to ruin his group with a flyer. </div></div>

Awesome!

OP, whats the trigger like on your friends rifle.

 

[aggiesig]

Re: Two shots together and then one away

I used to do this with my .22-250

It's mostly nerves. I think the best cure is a .22 and about 20,000 rounds

 

[pshell]

Re: Two shots together and then one away

I'm probably not helping here.
Can he hit what he wants to at distance? I understand that shooting groups tests the shooter/equipment's consistency, but if he consistently hits his intended target on the first and second shot what more can you ask for? I guess that depends on why your shooting.
I agree with the others, that last shot in a group can really do you in. I love watching that "internet worthy" group appear in my view only to be ruined by me pulling the last shot. Maybe that's the problem. You could have him shoot 5 or 10 round groups to be sure. Maybe it's the gun, let it cool a little maybe. I like to keep mine hot, but I have no idea why. The rifle just ends up that way...
OP, just read your last post. If your rifle is GTG and your new shooter does the same I would say it's nerves. Some extensive dry fire and maybe ball and dummy drills will help your shooter. Shooter is pulling it under pressure. Tell him to shoot a 5 round group and stop him at 3. Is there a difference? If he nails it you know the answer.

 

[Jayman_10X]

Re: Two shots together and then one away

Hmmm. It mostly sounds like a shooter problem. But his rifle itself may have an issue of throwing the last round too, as the instructor indicated. John Barsness addressed this issue in an article of Rifle Magazine. (I don't have the issue number at my disposal.) Anyway, he said some of the problems were the magazine well (if the rifle has one) in contact with the action. Another potential issue he found was the action screws not torqued properly, or the action screws bottoming out on the action face. Apparantly thiese issues cause some harmonic problems...

 

[dar1246]

Re: Two shots together and then one away

I have shot rifles that did this . Recently in a Remington sps tactical. It would shoot 2 together and throw one. I tighten the action screws screws using an inch torgue wrench and problem.
I have this in the past with another rifle. It didn't work. I took it my gunsmith and had it rebarrel. He said the threading on the barrel and the action was off. The best I could get this 243 to shoot was 2" group. He true the action and rebarreled it in a 243 again. Shoots lights out.

 

[gvanhyning]

Re: Two shots together and then one away

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mdesign</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Just looking, his form did not seem bad...what could he be doing that causes this? </div></div>

Anxiety ... he's trying too hard and needs to relax.

 

[Unknown]

Re: Two shots together and then one away

For years I had heard the term "Dragging wood" to refer to having your trigger finger bearing on the side of the stock when shooting. If you get your trigger finger completely away from the stock when pulling the trigger and don't "drag it on the wood" it really does make a difference.