Rifle Scopes UPDATE Bought some optics: Pistol shooter, new to LR need multi-use scope

[rmantoo]

I'm 51, and have been a USPSA, IDPA and IPSC competitor for 20+ years. I've been shooting 3-gun and run & gun type events for +-15 years. I roll my own in every caliber I shoot. Dillon 1050 w/markvii for high volume, and multiple single stages, turrets, and a manual 1050 for low volume.

I live and mostly (90% of the time) shoot in San Angelo, Tx, elevation ~1,800'. Once or twice a year I go to the NRA Whittington center in Raton, NM @ about ~6000'. I routinely travel around west Texas shooting 3gun matches, but elevation is pretty much ~800-2200' .

I currently rock a vortex 1-6x viper moa. I routinely move it from one rifle to another, mostly 224, 223, and 223 wylde ar15s. I'm comfortable with it out to 600 yards. I normally zero in 3-4 shots at 200yds

I have ZERO experience with shooting scopes higher than 9x (as in, 3-9x cheap tascos and burris).

I've been shooting my Seekins AR10 in 6.5 cm w/ 22" barrel with the same Vortex 1-6x and an old burris 3-9x @ 750-1000 yards and after shooting another guys Vortex Viper 6-24x it is unsatisfying, to say the least.

I want to shoot 750-1000 yards for fun, and intend to try a few PRS style matches- but I will be shooting the same rifle at ranges of 100-1000 -whether I stick with that type of shooting has yet to be determined- If I end up enjoying it, I'm likely to buy a bolt gun, again in 6.5cm- or maybe a used rifle in one of the other 6.5 chambers- at that point I would buy a dedicated optic for that rifle.

Budget: Sub $1000. I intend to buy a used scope here off of a member (lifetime, virtually unconditional warranties are amazing things... I called both Vortex and Burris yesterday to confirm that the warranty would go with the scope)

Burris XTR 5-25, Vortex Razor Gen 1 5-20 seem to be the most ubiquitous options, but there are a TON of others... Zeiss Conquest, being plentiful in the ~500-600 range... There always seems to be at least 2-3 XTRs here in the classifieds, and I find that both encouraging, and scary: They're readily available, but with so many being sold, is it due to inadequacy, or changing/fickle needs/desires?

I 'think' I want SFP, and MOA as that's pretty much what I've been using for 10 years, but I'm simply not confident about deciding.

My guess is that most here will tell me to get either the XTR or the Razor and just shoot it to see how it goes, but as much as I've read here in the hide about them both I'm experiencing information overload/analysis paralysis...

Thanks in advance,
Robert
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May 31, 2019

So I figured I'd update this thread on what I bought.

First, I bought a Eotech Vudu 3.5-18x50 FFP in MOA, non-illuminated. It came with an AeroPrecision mount and lever. This was one of the scopes a friend has on a 22 WMR, and I thought it was amazing. He also has a Vortex Viper 4-16, and I like the Vudu's reticle better, so when it came up for a great price (here on the hide) I snapped it up.

I immediately mounted it on my 6.5 Grendel AR. I know this isn't a Kahles or NF, but since the last scope on this rifle was a Tasco 3-9, it is AMAZING for me.

No pics from the first range outing, but it far surpasses my expectations.

Next up, I bought an Athlon Chronus 4.5-29 moa. It came with NF ultralight rings, but they're too low to mount on my AR10, so I have to wait until I get a mount or taller rings to use it. However, I loosely mounted it anyway, and simply looking through it was AMAZING.


A

nyway just thought u'all might want to see how this ended up... of course, now that I have 1 decent, and 1 pretty decent optic, I'm already pondering NF and Kahles, etc, so I know this is only the first baby step in my...adventure, or maybe ordeal

 

[Rob01]

That rifle will be doing a different type of shooting than you are used to so some advice? Go FFP. It's a must for PRS matches and be able to use the reticle for holds on any power is a needed thing with a higher powered optic. Sfp is fine for a 1-6 where you will be on 6x all the time when shooting longer but not on a higher powered optic in a different sport.

As to the scope of choice, the Razor and XTR are both good choices but I would say look at the Gen II PSTs as well. They are a step up from the 6-24x you have tried. With the prices where they are now on the Razor II 3-18 models that might be an option if you can go a little above that $1k range and you won't have to worry about upgrading. Just a thought. But again anything you get should be FFP.

 

[chevy_man]

Either/or. Both those scopes are solid for the money.


I would advise ffp. Less worry about math. However, strelok pro has a built in reticle calculator you can use with sfp scopes to see holds at various magnification.

Mil vs moa, you have less clicks to dial with mill as it's not as small as adjustment. If you can stop thinking in yards, inches, etc. and just measure everything in mills it works great. If your shooting partners are using one or the other it makes sense to keep them the same.

But at the end of the day, do whatever you're comfortable with.

 

[CSTactical]

I agree with the comments above about going with FFP, especially since you will rarely be near max magnification doing PRS type matches. Both are good options and we typically have both models in stock, please call 916-670-1103 and I'll be happy to answer any questions

 

[EastCOYotes]

I think the Bushnell HDMR II 3.5-21 would be worth considering

 

[rmantoo]

Thanks for all of the replies, guys.

I'm comfortable thinking in Moa, but Mils aren't radically different from a geometry/trig pov-I'm a directional driller in the real world, so I work/think with radians/trig/geometry for a living, and I think I can adjust and work with either,- depending on what scopes are for sale at any given moment, when I decide to pull the trigger, Mils vs Moa will be kinda far down on my list for this first scope... If I get deeper into the PRS game I'll be much more picky when buying a 2nd scope- and have a better idea of what I want then.

I'll definitely go with FFP, based on recommendations: In the last 4-5 years I've never dialed down from 6x in a 3gun match, so that makes sense.

I honestly hand't thought of the PSTs, simply based on the preponderance of posts and classifieds, but I will add them and the HDMR II to my searches.

CsTactical, when it comes time for my 2nd scope, I'll def give you a call: this first one is going to be used, and is really more of a learning tool for me.

"If your shooting partners are using one or the other it makes sense to keep them the same."--- I hadn't thought of this aspect.

 

[fdkay]

There are many options available to you nowadays.
There are several companies selling high quality Japanese made optics for just a bit more than the Philippine made PST II's and XTR II's.
(both of those are good options).
If you can swing a few hundred more, I'd suggest a Japanese made optic. For example, the EOTECh Vudu and Bushnell LRTSi 4.5-18 is about 400 more than the PST II, the Nightforce SHV is about 300 more, etc...
I have concerns about the PST II robustness, on the other hand the XTR II are incredibly robust, but the glass is not as good as it is in the PST II. Both are known for tracking very well.
The LRTSi has good glass, a good reticle, is very robust and tracks very well.
https://www.amazon.com/Bushnell-Elite-Tactical-4-5-18x44-ET45184GA/dp/B01D8YGJAO

 

[patriot07]

Personally, I think if you didn't like the 6-24 PST, you're probably not going to be thrilled with an XTRII. I've heard the XTRII has improved glass in the newer models, but if you're buying used, that's a risk.

I'd consider an SWFA HD 5-20. Used, they're around $800-$900 for non-illuminated and they pretty much blow away anything else in the sub-$1k category when it comes to build quality and glass quality. They're not feature-rich, so if that's your thing, maybe I'd consider the PST Gen 2.

The Gen 1 Razor you mentioned is another great option in this price range.

I think you're looking at all of the right choices, but I'd definitely stick with FFP and get the best combo of glass and reliability you can get, and worry about features and reticle preference after you've gotten your feet wet a bit.

 

[Bender]

Ffp or stick to handguns. It’s not a “fad”. It would be like trying to shoot pistols without a front sight. Can you do it? Sure, but why.

 

[rmantoo]

There are many options available to you nowadays.
There are several companies selling high quality Japanese made optics for just a bit more than the Philippine made PST II's and XTR II's.
(both of those are good options).
If you can swing a few hundred more, I'd suggest a Japanese made optic. For example, the EOTECh Vudu and Bushnell LRTSi 4.5-18 is about 400 more than the PST II, the Nightforce SHV is about 300 more, etc...
I have concerns about the PST II robustness, on the other hand the XTR II are incredibly robust, but the glass is not as good as it is in the PST II. Both are known for tracking very well.
The LRTSi has good glass, a good reticle, is very robust and tracks very well.
https://www.amazon.com/Bushnell-Elite-Tactical-4-5-18x44-ET45184GA/dp/B01D8YGJAO

Noted, and added to my search.

Personally, I think if you didn't like the 6-24 PST, you're probably not going to be thrilled with an XTRII. I've heard the XTRII has improved glass in the newer models, but if you're buying used, that's a risk.

I'd consider an SWFA HD 5-20. Used, they're around $800-$900 for non-illuminated and they pretty much blow away anything else in the sub-$1k category when it comes to build quality and glass quality. They're not feature-rich, so if that's your thing, maybe I'd consider the PST Gen 2.

The Gen 1 Razor you mentioned is another great option in this price range.

I think you're looking at all of the right choices, but I'd definitely stick with FFP and get the best combo of glass and reliability you can get, and worry about features and reticle preference after you've gotten your feet wet a bit.

I have a buddy with that SWFA who is going shooting with me saturday: I'll be playing with it a bit, and adding it to my 'possibles' list.

Ffp or stick to handguns. It’s not a “fad”. It would be like trying to shoot pistols without a front sight. Can you do it? Sure, but why.

That made me literally laugh out loud... wife, sitting in the den: "I want to watch whatever you're watching. I need to laugh." The tv in here was off. "Not watching anything, babe." "Not even a cat video?"

I'm definitely going ffp. Before Rob01's post I didn't realize it was such a ...not necessity, necessarily, but.. a MUCH better way to roll. Exactly why I posted my question: There is SO much about LR shooting, just about optics alone, that I want to try and cover as many bases as I can. I'm not embarrassed easily, and I want to make sure I'm going about this with as much information as I can...there's just so MUCH of it I was getting lost...

Again, thanks to all of you who've responded: It's very much appreciated, and I'll do my best to take it all in. Likewise, I'll be posting again when I buy and start using whatever scope I end up with.

 

[Bender]

We rib each other a bunch. But there is a collection of family here with knowledge second to none. Welcome to LR shooting, and the black hole it is.

 

[koshkin]

I am a bit late to the thread, but I wholeheartedly agree with choosing a decent FFP scope.

If you can find Gen 1 Razor in your price range, just go with that. It is big, heavy, well optimized, durable and generally easy to use. If you run out of ammo, you can use it to pound nails, club baby seals, use instead of the baseball bat at the batting cages, etc.

Generally, when looking at different scopes, do not go crazy with magnification. Anything with 15x or more on the top end is plenty.

With PST Gen 2, the 3-15x44 is easily my favourite. It is sort of a goldilocks scope in that it does everything pretty well while staying adequately compact.

With XTR II, 4-20x50 is probably the best option. Make sure you can live with SCR reticle or Horus. I am OK with SCR, but Horus is not my thing.

With Athlon, Ares ETR 4.5-30x56 is a very nice scope. It does not quite have the track record yet being fairly new, but it seems to be holding up quite well. Best scope I have ever seen come out of China.

Lastly, SWFA 5-20x50 is always a viable option and its track record is second to none. It is getting a little dated in that there is no built-in zerostop, but aside from that it is exceedingly nice for the money.

ILya

 

[Surfingsk8r]

Doug at Cameraland had a solid deal on the Athlon Ares BTR not to long ago and I think I saw someone in the for sale section that had a cert for an XTRII they were trying to unload for around 500 bucks that bought you a new XTRII for an additional 299 or something like that. Pretty solid deal for one of those IMO. Also In general the optics for sale section is a good place to pick up quality used optics at a good price if you re patient. I snagged a Cronus BTR recently for a great deal.

 

[rmantoo]

What do you guys think of:
Athlon Ares BTR 4.5x27, 30 mm tube?
Athlon Ares ETR 4.5x30, 34 mm tube?

I'm cheap, and have far more firearms than my wife knows about. My brothers both have instructions that in case I die, they are to take charge of the gun room and reloading rooms so my wife neither gets screwed, nor donates my body to Chinese worm farms.

I have a dude who will trade straight up for a pistol I'm selling ($800 value) for a brand new BTR, or I throw $400 in and trade for a brand new ETR. He's an athlon dealer whom I know through USPSA and is a stand up guy.

95% confident if I will be able to sell the pistol for what I'm asking, so this isn't urgent, but it would be a little bit less work than selling to 3rd party then finding the right deal for a used scope...

 

[stilesg57]

Don’t have personal experience with either, but I’ve been shopping those two a bit and from what I’ve read around here for long range the ETR is worth the premium over the BTR.

 

[pineoak]

I like more magnification capability than 15x personally, but that's personal pref

rec skipping the Razor Gen1, the 35mm rings are weird and hard to get rid of unless you sell them with the scope

stick with a 30 or 34mm scope IME

a while ago, I had a Burris gen1 XTRII 5-25, the glass was not good IMO, but it tracked well and was great otherwise. I love the SCR reticle, still one of my favorites.
Have used Burris twice for CS issues and they took care of it both times, so I have no issue with Burris.

also had a Gen2 PST 1-6x, the glass was great for the $$, if the higher mag versions are the same and track = awesome

The Bushnell GAP LRHS has the best glass under $1k I've ever seen and would be my #1 choice for around $800

I have purchased from CS Tactical before, smooth with no issues. New scope as advertised, no problems with it.

If you can stretch to $1800... Razor Gen 2 4.5x 7C would be a buy once cry once option and never look back

resale will be fast ($150-200 loss?) on it as well

 

[stilesg57]

The Bushnell GAP LRHS has the best glass under $1k I've ever seen and would be my #1 choice for around $800

Seconded. I’m so, SO happy with mine.

If you can stretch to $1800... Razor Gen 2 4.5x 7C would be a buy once cry once option and never look back

Or possibly less if you give Scott at Liberty Optics a call...

 

[pineoak]

I've bought from Scott/Liberty Optics. Legit, no issues. Along with CST, both are great recs.

 

[rmantoo]

May 31, 2019 Updated my original post, above, with pics of my new (to me) optics

 

[EastCOYotes]

Looks like a couple of nice choices, good work.

Buying optics here on SH is the way to go.

 

[rmantoo]

Looks like a couple of nice choices, good work.

Buying optics here on SH is the way to go.

I'm also doing that with mounts and other gear- I've purchased 2 different Sitka jackets here, and another off of another forum, that were all indistinguishable from new.

There are relatively few things that cost more than several hundred bucks that I don't normally at least attempt to find used.

From tools and reloading equipment to firearms and vehicles. I've never bought myself a new vehicle, and only a very few firearms. Wife and mother, absolutely: I want them to have the confidence in a vehicle with a new warranty. For me, I'm confident knowing that the difference between 0 miles and 50k is negligible in modern cars/trucks, and under 20k on a bike is nothing if it's been maintained.

My dad used to say that we were able to do far more activities with our own toys because disposable income goes much further in used cars than new, regardless of mpg, and you have plenty of money left to pay the speeding tickets.

Of course, he always looked for the lowest mileage examples that were maintained like fine watches, and I do, too.