Updated; Lets keep going with this. Is there a better power than 8208 for what I'm trying to do?

[TheGerman]

UPDATE: So lets change this a bit as it seems my velocity out of the 11.5 is about as good as itll get. I'm not stuck on the 77g. Basically what I am after, is whatever combination of velocity and bullet design can be had that will extend the distance of the penetration/fragmentation or expansion (all depends on the bullet) far enough to where an 11.5 inch SBR will be within the minimum velocity to achieve this at no shorter than 175 yards. This is for defense, not hunting rabbits/coyotes/pigs/deer, etc.

Cost per bullet not being .60 would be great too, but lets just see what we have so far:

77g Nosler @ 2450 will only be reliable until 120ish yards.

64g Nosler Bonded Solid @ estimated 2500 will go to 275 yards until it hits its listed ballistics floor of 1600fps. I'm not up on why/why not bonded solids would be good as far as terminal ballistics on people via self defense (same question regarding all the Barnes stuff like the TTSX); anyone have knowledge of this?

Prvi 69/75 has what seems to be excellent terminal ballistics in gelatin, but I have not seen a terminal ballistic velocity minimum anywhere; for all I know it wouldn't do anything under 2400fps. I've emailed PP to see what they say.






Wanted to try loading a fast 77g Nosler CC load for a 11.5 SBR to see if I could find a combination that would extend the bullets' fragmentation 'floor' distance.

From research done on the 77g Nosler, the round will fragment/expand until around 2050ish, so getting the most velocity out of it at the muzzle is obviously what I'm after. Trick is, looks like from running a quick and dirty mock up on JBM, a 2600 MV will get me 2050ish to around 175 yards which is ideal.

From loading the 77TMK and 8208, the load I've used in my Mk12 rifles (both 16 and 18 inch) has a velocity of 2640 out of the 16" barrel which puts me at an estimated 2460 out of the 11.5 with a suppressor (~40fps per inch lost).

Anyone have a suggestion on a power that would:

- Give more velocity for the 77g bullet
- Temperature insensitive; similar to 8208
- Meter well in a Dillon
- Not have ridiculous amounts of flash from the muzzle

Ideas?

 

[spife7980]

Shooting a Nosler cc and you care about expansion? Get an expanding bullet then, the cc isn’t it. Pigs and coyotes as my test cases.

 

[308pirate]

Shooting a Nosler cc and you care about expansion? Get an expanding bullet then, the cc isn’t it. Pigs and coyotes as my test cases.

+1

Unfortunately this stupidity started when the military started using match bullets for some non-match cartridges. Every idiot follows suit refusing to understand that we (civilians) aren't hampered with the rules the military is stuck with, nor do we have to buy from the lowest bidder.

If I want expansion in an animal or a human, I buy expanding bullets. How hard is that to grasp?

Yeah I know there's this big long thread about match bullet kills......….don't GAF. I can drive nails with a crescent wrench or even a piece of rebar. Don't mean that I should

 

[DrainTheSwamp]

Some Ramshot TAC would be worth a try. Don’t think it’ll get you to 2600 though.

 

[BoilerUP]

XBR is the ticket.

And I'd concur with spife, the 77gr CC doesn't expand - it tumbles and fragments. Still very terminally effective (I was impressed at the wound channel when I shot a whitetail) but if expansion is what you want, look at an expanding bullet.

Hague doesn't apply to us civvy pukes!

 

[spife7980]

I’ve gone to a 53 varmageddon for quick expanding precision rounds (great bc for the weight) and then a 55 speer softpoint for my shit ar.

 

[MtnCreek]

The other two powders I'd try are H4895 (meters so-so in dillon) and Varget (will not meter).

If you have to have more velocity, moly coat. The only special equip you'll need is a dedicated tumbler bowl and the moly. You'll have to thoroughly wash and dry the the bullets, so it is a bit of a pain. You'll burn a little more powder at about the same peak pressure and should expect around +50fps.

I may have some 77smk w/C already coated from years ago, but not sure if it'd be enough to work a load. I have horn 75gr HPBT and some nos 77gr I could coat and send you 30 or so if you wanted. Let me know if you want them; we'll call it late Christmas.

 

[Onyx Z]

A ball powder like PP 2000MR or TAC will get you there if pure velocity is what you are after. Ball powders typically provide more velocity than extruded powders (8208 XBR, Varget, etc).

 

[308pirate]

25 grains of TAC get me only 2630 fps with Hornady 75s out of a 16" barrel (Lake City brass and WSR primers). I seriously doubt any safe loading of it will get the same velocity from a barrel 5" shorter.

I wouldn't try it.

 

[308pirate]

I’ve gone to a 53 varmageddon for quick expanding precision rounds (great bc for the weight)

The 53 Vmax is a hell of a bullet.

 

[Cayjotiethumper]

The 53 Vmax is a hell of a bullet.

That's what I use after a lot of trial and error with many other bullets.

 

[Dirty8404]

Lots of expanding/fragmenting .223 bullets, not all meet FBI penetration specs. If you want to use the 77gr custom comp, 8208 or TAC is it, and they give very similar velocities in my experience.

You have two options.

1) Go with what you have.

2) Go with a lighter bullet (faster) with lower expansion/frag threshold. Bonded bullets should be good to 1800fps, and a 64gr nosler might get you a bit more distance while giving you a barrier blind load. I use FBIT3 as my go-to just for that reason. Benchmark is great for lighter bullets if you go that route.

I like the 53gr varm over TAC, but it’s not a bullet meant for HD (which I assume OP is looking for based on the 77gr choice in an SBR).

 

[pmclaine]

With the Dillon you first have to limit your self to what works in the powder measure unless you want to die sitting at the press trying to make a suitable amount of .223 to give @ArmyJerry a boner.

TAC meters exceptionally and I know of people that use it in there MK262 clone ammo.

I prefer 8208XBR though and it meters plenty good enough.

Whats the goal? "Dead right there"?

Perhaps that may require a different caliber or something.

I shot a pig with just regular issue circa 1987 55 grain FMJ ammo and I was impressed that through one shoulder blade there was a perfect .223 pin hole but the other shoulder blade was a mass of fragments and jello.

The pig wasnt "Dead right There" but when I got up to him he was right there.

 

[tsu45]

CFE223 made some good velocity for me in a 107gr Grendel. You can find comments both ways on the temp stability though.

 

[Dirty8404]

Just a thought: Black Hills makes a 5.56 50gr Optimized load that’s a slightly tougher TSX bullet, nasty out of an SBR, taking the lighter/faster advanced bullet concept further than any factory load I know of.

You could try loading a 50-55gr TTSX hot and that would be titties out of a 11.5” barrel. The TTSX would be softer than the 50gr Optimized (which was hardened to not lose petals through auto glass) and give you a lower expansion threshold and better BC.

More expensive than a 77gr NCC though, and admittedly in a completely different direction than what you originally asked.

 

[rweaver00geo]

Accurate 2520 Its a spherical powder, if you can deal with a little temperature insensitivity. Out of my 18" Lothar with the Hornady 75gr velocity was in the upper 2700. Meters awesome. Maybe Vihtavuori ? Dont they have an "high energy" line of powders?

 

[bunsen27]

@TheGerman have you considered the Hornady 73gr ELD-M? They are designed to be seated to mag length and from my experience shooting woodchucks they do expand and fragment nicely where the 75gr and 80gr ELD-M's just blow a hole through.

 

[Codiekfx400]

Hodgdon Benchmark would be a powder to try

 

[towerofpower93]

Agreed on what others have said ref 2600fps with a 77gr bullet in an 11.5" barrel. Not going to happen safely with 8208, and I'm not sure it's safely doable with any powder.

My Colt 6945, with a 10.3" barrel and SDN-6 suppressor, gets me 2325fps with 23.6gr of 8208 under a 77gr SMK in LC brass. This same load gives me 2570fps in an 18" DD barrel.

 

[pmclaine]

Disclaimer - Facetious post to follow. Do not do this newbie!


W231 will give you all kinds of expansion.....the bullet will expand, the brass will expand, the chamber will expand, the upper will expand, the mag well will expand, and the base plate of the mag will expand to your feet.

You will only need to load one round and the powder meters perfect to the tenth of a tenth in a Dillon.

 

[MtnCreek]

Just use the case as a dipper...

 

[Onyx Z]

Agreed on what others have said ref 2600fps with a 77gr bullet in an 11.5" barrel. Not going to happen safely with 8208, and I'm not sure it's safely doable with any powder.

My Colt 6945, with a 10.3" barrel and SDN-6 suppressor, gets me 2325fps with 23.6gr of 8208 under a 77gr SMK in LC brass. This same load gives me 2570fps in an 18" DD barrel.

IMO, 2,600 fps is impossible to safely do with an 11.5" barrel with a 77gr bullet.

2,450-2,475 is probably the max you will be able to safely load with canister grade powder ball out of an 11.5" barrel, and that is likely pushing the upper limits.

 

[TheGerman]

IMO, 2,600 fps is impossible to safely do with an 11.5" barrel with a 77gr bullet.

2,450-2,475 is probably the max you will be able to safely load with canister grade powder ball out of an 11.5" barrel, and that is likely pushing the upper limits.

Yeah that's what I'm trying to narrow down and not end up buying 50 different powders trying. The 2450ish number is what I think I'm stuck with as well for the 77 but was hoping I was missing something.

What started this was I was reading these (sorry, somehow I put expansion in the OP when I'm basically after terminal ballistics on a 2 legged creature):

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Ballistic_Gel_Experiments/BTAmmoLabsTest6/Test6.htm

https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/N...__Accuracy_and_Terminal_Ballistics/16-688776/

 

[TheGerman]

Just a thought: Black Hills makes a 5.56 50gr Optimized load that’s a slightly tougher TSX bullet, nasty out of an SBR, taking the lighter/faster advanced bullet concept further than any factory load I know of.

You could try loading a 50-55gr TTSX hot and that would be titties out of a 11.5” barrel. The TTSX would be softer than the 50gr Optimized (which was hardened to not lose petals through auto glass) and give you a lower expansion threshold and better BC.

More expensive than a 77gr NCC though, and admittedly in a completely different direction than what you originally asked.

I'm not against it; was just looking at M193 velocities in a 11.5 and wanted to see if I could find a round I could load a lot of that would extend the 11.5 guns terminal ballistic range on 2 legged animals.

I've always used a carbine but the 11.5 gun is basically like swinging a pool noodle around its so small and light, so wanted to see what I could figure out and make rounds for. Right now, I'd always still grab a carbine with M193; I have tons of it, literally, but in the 11.5 its fragmentation threshold is around 75 yards - not something I'm grabbing unless I knew I was only going to be and stay at CQB distances, and you never know that.

Is this the Nosler round you guys were talking about? http://www.shootersproshop.com/nosl...onded-solid-based-w-cannelure-blem-100ct.html

Seems the floor on it is 1800fps; that's at/over 200 yards in the 11.5 with a 2450ish muzzle velocity.

 

[BurnOut]

CFE BLK? It's noticeably faster than 8208 per the burn rate chart, but maybe that's what you want in the short barrel (despite the heavy-for-caliber projectile). IIRC, it's also designed to not give off a bunch of muzzle flash.

I have only worked with it in 7.62x39, but it seems to have pretty decent bulk density, so getting enough of it in the case shouldn't be too much trouble.

 

[pmclaine]

CFE BLK? It's noticeably faster than 8208 per the burn rate chart, but maybe that's what you want in the short barrel (despite the heavy-for-caliber projectile). IIRC, it's also designed to not give off a bunch of muzzle flash.

I have only worked with it in 7.62x39, but it seems to have pretty decent bulk density, so getting enough of it in the case shouldn't be too much trouble.

Found it to be "Meh" accuracy wise in a 16 inch LMT with 77 CCs.

I bought 8 ponds 4-5 years ago when powder was nonexistent.

Im buying up 55 FMJ/SP to load with it hoping thats a better match.

 

[fdkay]

Found it to be "Meh" accuracy wise in a 16 inch LMT with 77 CCs.

I bought 8 ponds 4-5 years ago when powder was nonexistent.

Im buying up 55 FMJ/SP to load with it hoping thats a better match.

I think you mean CFE223, CFEBLK is pretty new (I believe within the last 2 years).
I would take a serious look at the Prvi Partizan 75 grain bullet. It fragments VERY well. There are several videos of gel tests with it.
Honestly, you might be better off going down to 62 grains or so.

 

[pmclaine]

I think you mean CFE223, CFEBLK is pretty new (I believe within the last 2 years).
I would take a serious look at the Prvi Partizan 75 grain bullet. It fragments VERY well. There are several videos of gel tests with it.
Honestly, you might be better off going down to 62 grains or so.

I think you sir are absolutely correct.

What of this CFEBLK you speak of?

Im assuming it is intended for the .300 Black shooter?

My bad.

 

[spife7980]

I think you sir are absolutely correct.

What of this CFEBLK you speak of?

Im assuming it is intended for the .300 Black shooter?

My bad.

Yep, CFE BLK was introduced at the end of 2016 and is all I use in my blackouts, great for subs, great for light bullets for hunting.

I cant imagine it would be any good in a 223, from what I can tell its very low pressure from what I can tell without a strain gauge.

 

[fdkay]

OP, you might do pretty well with CFE223 and heavy bullets, a quick interwebs googlygoo returned quite a few folks using it. It is a ball type powder so should meter VERY well.
You may also want to consider the 64 grain power point bullet.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...-22-caliber-224-diameter-64-grain-power-point

 

[TheGerman]

I think you mean CFE223, CFEBLK is pretty new (I believe within the last 2 years).
I would take a serious look at the Prvi Partizan 75 grain bullet. It fragments VERY well. There are several videos of gel tests with it.
Honestly, you might be better off going down to 62 grains or so.

I saw the Prvi stuff, but what’s the minimum velocity on it for reliable fragmentation?

 

[Dirty8404]

@TheGerman have you considered the Hornady 73gr ELD-M? They are designed to be seated to mag length and from my experience shooting woodchucks they do expand and fragment nicely

The 73gr ELD shoots fantastic, but the gel tests I’ve seen haven’t been great, doesn’t seem to meet FBI penetration specs. Still a great bullet IMO, just not as awesome as it could be.

Is this the Nosler round you guys were talking about? http://www.shootersproshop.com/nosl...onded-solid-based-w-cannelure-blem-100ct.html

Seems the floor on it is 1800fps; that's at/over 200 yards in the 11.5 with a 2450ish muzzle velocity.

That’s the one I’d use for handloading if I went with a bonded bullet. Just a hint... look at M855 velocities (62gr, 5.56 pressure) out of a 11.5” barrel... I’d be surprised if you aren’t able to get 2600fps out of that bullet.

@TheGerman, I had the same question you did (10.3” barrel) and this is what I came up with: I had the following criteria:

1) 5.56 pressure (hot as was safe) for extended effective distance

2) Barrier blind (bonded/monometal)

3) May not be important to you, but I wanted crimped/sealed at neck and primer (limited to factory ammo) for extra factor of safety with regards to environmentals

4) Cost

I went with FBIT3 (5.56 62gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw loaded by Federal) @ $0.80 p/rd, the Black Hills 50gr load is $1.50 a rd...

If item #3 isn’t important, that opens lots of doors for reloading cool shit.

I’d suggest thinking in terms of the CLASS of bullet/powder instead of specifics. I.E., 30-40fps difference between powders doesn’t mean much; gaining 150fps with a lighter and different bullet design is meaningful. Ball powders and the new technology powders can do awesome stuff if 1.5moa is cool (which it is). If you want to just tinker however, by all means go for it.

OTM: Mass=penetration, fragility=extended frag range. The ammo resources on ARFCOM from Molon and DocGKR are priceless for this entire discussion. I’m sure you’ve been down this road. The 68-69gr OTM class may be worth exploring, tons of very accurate handloads with many powders.

Barrier Blind: weight means much less to performance at short range, meaning speed and shorter barrels make beautiful babies. Bonded beats mono-metal in my opinion, with lower expansion velocity (increased range) and no risk of losing petals through windshields.

P.S. For those trashing on the 77gr Nosler, the .mil testing found it had better fragmentation than the 77gr SMK due to a thinner jacket, and you can buy cannelured 77gr Noslers (even better fragmentation) from Sierra Pro Shop. The testing results are mostly online, put up by DocGKR, if you’re interested.

P.P.S. I’ve looked at the Privi 75gr load, but it’s .223 Rem pressure and the chrono testing (again done by Molon) show that it’s not as fast at MK262 and the IMI/CBC clones.

 

[TheGerman]

The 73gr ELD shoots fantastic, but the gel tests I’ve seen haven’t been great, doesn’t seem to meet FBI penetration specs. Still a great bullet IMO, just not as awesome as it could be.



That’s the one I’d use for handloading if I went with a bonded bullet. Just a hint... look at M855 velocities (62gr, 5.56 pressure) out of a 11.5” barrel... I’d be surprised if you aren’t able to get 2600fps out of that bullet.

@TheGerman, I had the same question you did (10.3” barrel) and this is what I came up with: I had the following criteria:

1) 5.56 pressure (hot as was safe) for extended effective distance

2) Barrier blind (bonded/monometal)

3) May not be important to you, but I wanted crimped/sealed at neck and primer (limited to factory ammo) for extra factor of safety with regards to environmentals

4) Cost

I went with FBIT3 (5.56 62gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw loaded by Federal) @ $0.80 p/rd, the Black Hills 50gr load is $1.50 a rd...

If item #3 isn’t important, that opens lots of doors for reloading cool shit.

I’d suggest thinking in terms of the CLASS of bullet/powder instead of specifics. I.E., 30-40fps difference between powders doesn’t mean much; gaining 150fps with a lighter and different bullet design is meaningful. Ball powders and the new technology powders can do awesome stuff if 1.5moa is cool (which it is). If you want to just tinker however, by all means go for it.

OTM: Mass=penetration, fragility=extended frag range. The ammo resources on ARFCOM from Molon and DocGKR are priceless for this entire discussion. I’m sure you’ve been down this road. The 68-69gr OTM class may be worth exploring, tons of very accurate handloads with many powders.

Barrier Blind: weight means much less to performance at short range, meaning speed and shorter barrels make beautiful babies. Bonded beats mono-metal in my opinion, with lower expansion velocity (increased range) and no risk of losing petals through windshields.

P.S. For those trashing on the 77gr Nosler, the .mil testing found it had better fragmentation than the 77gr SMK due to a thinner jacket, and you can buy cannelured 77gr Noslers (even better fragmentation) from Sierra Pro Shop. The testing results are mostly online, put up by DocGKR, if you’re interested.

P.P.S. I’ve looked at the Privi 75gr load, but it’s .223 Rem pressure and the chrono testing (again done by Molon) show that it’s not as fast at MK262 and the IMI/CBC clones.

Yeah from reading teh same stuff you mentioned, I'm basically at stick with the 77g and factor in I'm done with reliable fragmentation at 120 yards or go with a bonded like the 64 Nosler which is a different animal and relies on expansion, but has a threshold down to 1800 which gets me over 200 yards.

Where are you finding the FBIT3 for .80?

 

[Dirty8404]

Yeah from reading teh same stuff you mentioned, I'm basically at stick with the 77g and factor in I'm done with reliable fragmentation at 120 yards or go with a bonded like the 64 Nosler which is a different animal and relies on expansion, but has a threshold down to 1800 which gets me over 200 yards.

Where are you finding the FBIT3 for .80?

Out of stock when I checked earlier this week, unfortunately. It pops up under the non-FBI SKU# XM556SBCT3 as well as the FBI contract SKU# XM556FBIT3 with various ammo sellers, just have to keep an eye open for it.

 

[TheGerman]

Am i crazy or did our last 3 posts disappear?

 

[308pirate]

If I'm going reload with the aim of stopping people in their tracks, fragmentation will not be the mechanism of choice. That's the crappy method the army has to rely on. I don't have the same constraints.

I will use an expanding bullet and not try to make a suboptimal method work because .mil.

 

[MarinePMI]

JME, but I couldn't get CFE223 to shoot for shit with heavy bullets. In lighter bullets (55gr Nos BT's for example) it was great. But in heavier bullets the accuracy was horrible, and ignition seemed to be erratic.

I have an old XM-177 11.5" barreled carbine, and with 62gr government ammo (the nomenclature escapes right now) it killed the shit out of pigs in Central California (50'ish yard shots to the neck/head). Ideal? Nope. But it worked in a pinch (was helping a rancher out with a problem).

 

[pmclaine]

JME, but I couldn't get CFE223 to shoot for shit with heavy bullets. In lighter bullets (55gr Nos BT's for example) it was great. But in heavier bullets the accuracy was horrible, and ignition seemed to be erratic.

I have an old XM-177 11.5" barreled carbine, and with 62gr government ammo (the nomenclature escapes right now) it killed the shit out of pigs in Central California (50'ish yard shots to the neck/head). Ideal? Nope. But it worked in a pinch (was helping a rancher out with a problem).

I bought some Nosler flat base lead spire point 55 grainers to use burning up the 8 pounds of CFE223 I have that I found unsatisfactory under my 77CCs.

Thinking the flat 55s will be good 300 and in blammo.

I wonder if something like the spire point 55s might work for the OP?

Instead of fragmentation you boost velocity and hope expansion with the lead tip goes from a .224 wound to a .30.

MarinePMI - If you could go to PM and provide some load data Id appreciate it. Nosler has the 55 grain SPs in the Pro shop now at less than $100/1000.

PMI remind me to show you what I got coming in the mail today, you should appreciate it, will post about it in vintage section later.

 

[RTH1800]

I did not read all the post but many were spot on.
I do have a LOT of experience with 5.56 in 11.5" and 18" barrels. Some with 16" barrels.
Some thoughts.

I am not sure your "defense" strategy will fly at 175 yards.

The operators I know all say the 11.5" barrels are darned effective for two legged varmints.

The 11.5" barrels have really disappointed me on 4 legged critters. I tried bullets from 52-77 grains. Nothing is effective but the 77's are still the best of the lot.

My max velocity from the 11.5" barrels runs about 2450 IIRC.

This one will get me roasted. Just what I have observed.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I have never seen evidence of bullet tumbling with any bullet, any caliber at any velocity with tens of thousands of kills. Only exception would be when bullet was too long for twist rate or bore was worn out. These tumbling bullets don't often make it to the target.

I doubt you will find a more effective bullet than the 77 SMK for your use in the 5.56.

A Redding taper crimp die will get you more uniform velocity and add reliability.

I doubt you will find a better powder than Ramshot TAC for you use in the 5.56

If you can get it the MK 262 load is excellent for velocity and good for accuracy. I can not match the velocity in my rifles but can reduce group size 25%. It is still sub MOA to 600 M. Velocity is uniform lot to lot but accuracy varies a bit for me. A very good lot will go sub .75 MOA and approach .5 MOA. With 262 I just take what I can get as I don't have a good full time source for the issue stuff.

All group sizes are quoted on vertical dispersion. Wind is another issue.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I always had good luck with H335 and H4198 in shorter barrels, H4198 more so with lighter bullets. H335 meters amazingly,

As for 77gr bullets I've found the Berger 77gr OTM to be the best for expansion from shooting groundhogs. They open up pretty wickedly inside about 150 yards. Lapua Scenars have been a close second. I was not too impressed with the CC's from what I shot with them, everything died but they would either just blow up inside with no exit or pencil through and exit. Shot lots of groundhogs with 77gr SMK's in factory BH ammo and they pretty much always just penciled through. I know groundhogs are far from a scientific experiment but it's connecting with meat. These were all at higher velocities too though, I don't think I've ever used them from anything less than 18" for anything but targets.

My HD AR is a 10.5" and I run the Federal AE tipped varmint ammo from it. I've only shot a couple skunks, one groundhog, and a fox with it but everything has been DRT and left pretty nasty exits which means the bullet is doing it's job. Normally a 50gr varmint bullet would blow up and not exit but it seems the lower impact velocity from the 10.5" is allowing it to partially fragment and retain some of the core to pass through. I picked up a case of the Federal varmint and predator that I plan on trying out this spring/summer as well.

If I was going to load for it I'd probably go for varmint bullets or a standard spire point or maybe a Barnes TTSX. I just don't see the point in loading when I can buy the Federal ammo for less than $.50/round and it shoots great and does the job.

I've got a box of 60gr Vmax sitting here that you can have for the cost of shipping if you want to try them out. I'll never use them.

 

[RTH1800]

The 77 SMK is not going to open on varmints but will do so on anything over 100# or with bone contact on smaller critters. It kills deer more effectively than coyotes and bobcats.

 

[Dirty8404]

Here are some selected photos I quickly pulled off the net that some may find enlightening. Notice the differences in neck length (distance between impact and serious damage) between bullet designs.

With that in mind, here is the 50gr Black Hills load.

Expansion velocity floor is like 2200fps with the 50gr TSX optimized, but it’s fast enough you get great performance from short barrels.

Hornady went the other direction in concept with the 75gr TAP SBR load. Slower bullet with a 1600fps expansion velocity floor according to a poster here. Bullet not available as a component to my knowledge.

Point being, lots of ways to skin a cat and a hand-loader can do some cool stuff. @redneckbmxer24 is spot on IME with H335 and 4198, BLC(2) is nearly identical to H335, Benchmark is another good one with great accuracy.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

The 77 SMK is not going to open on varmints but will do so on anything over 100# or with bone contact on smaller critters. It kills deer more effectively than coyotes and bobcats.

When they pencil through a 6-8" critter penetrating actual flesh that tells me that they don't expand soon enough and are a terrible choice for killing stuff. Most killing bullets have expansion of some form my 3" at most.

Then slow the velocity down which further hinders expansion and you've got another problem.

 

[BoilerUP]

Within the constraints of the Hague Convention, 77gr match bullets were found to have terminal fragmentation and tumbling characteristics better than other available 5.56 Hague-compliant bullets at lower impact velocities - such as those found at extended engagement ranges or closer range from SBRs.

Standing with only military-type 5.56 ammunition, they are both accurate and have good terminal effects.

Placed alongside non-Hague bullets built to expand at lower impact velocities, the limitations of their terminal effects are clearly exposed.

I neck-shot a whitetail at about 65yd with a Mk262 clone load using 77gr Nosler CC; the wound channel was about 8" long (deer had head down so bullet traveled a bit of length down the neck) and the exit wound was larger than my thumb, indicating to me the bullet was sideways upon exit. Bang/flop, extremely effective.

A 62gr Fusion, 64gr Gold Dot or 62gr TSX would have likely been even more impressive.

IMO Mk262 clone loads are a great 'all-around' load for a SBR but would be waaaaaaaaaaay down the list if I knew I'd need a barrier-blind load or was going to be on a two-way range with targets inside 200m.

 

[RTH1800]

When they pencil through a 6-8" critter penetrating actual flesh that tells me that they don't expand soon enough and are a terrible choice for killing stuff. Most killing bullets have expansion of some form my 3" at most.

Then slow the velocity down which further hinders expansion and you've got another problem.

You are basing this opinion off of your results of shooting small animals. I base my opinion off of killing thousands of animals of large size in commericial culling work. Those reading this should take our respective experience into consideration.

You also apparently assume all tissue and bone is the same. Even the thick hide of a winter killed northern deer will have an effect on expansion that a small animal cannot began to match.

 

[RTH1800]

I also note you utilize the factory BH 77 grain load. They make several including the actual Mk 262. Other that the issue round, all are slow in my 18" barrels. 2610-2650 IIRC. Get them up to 2775 or more and they will open far better.