Upgrade ?'s: Dillon presses and drill press trimmers?

[Strykervet]

Okay, so I have a LOT of brass and components laying around. WAY too much to do one at a time using my preferred single stage setup.

So I've decided to get a Dillon. But which one? The 650XL or the 1050 Super? The 650XL will auto trim brass whereas the 1050 isn't setup for that yet. The 1050 also drops bullets, it looks like all you do is pull the handle up and down unless something goes wrong. It would likely be the fastest. Provided it loads all my cartridges.

Second is trimming. I need to trim everything from 9mm on up to .50BMG and I'd like ONE quality setup to do it all. I was thinking a drill press setup would be the answer to that, but which one? I really don't want to depend on the drill press stop as it's not gonna be that accurate and would prefer one that stops on a die or whatnot.

Any suggestions? Would the Forster be the ticket, or the Lee? Forster is a better name IMO, but doesn't Lee offer trimming without use of the drill press stop gauge? And which ones can handle .50BMG?

Finally, if I'm using a 5 station press to load on and a turret press for .50BMG, is drill press trimming really gonna help, or should I save and pony up for the 650XL and the Dillon trimmers?

Please help, I know some of you have been down this road. I'm looking for precision first and foremost. Thanks.

 

[wtopace]

I'm not a big fan of trimming on your press you load on - you're just going to dirty it up unnecessarily. After trimming even a small lot of 100 pieces of 300 BLK brass (granted I'm trimming quite a bit during the forming process) on my mill with the quill stop, I produce a large amount of swarf and brass dust... not something I want in my press.

If you really want to automate your trimming, I would recommend a drill press / mini mill. I use my full size mill often when I form large batches of .300 BLK brass. I use the quill stop and have no problems with accuracy (usually within +- 0.001). As with any machining, remember that if your mechanical stop on your quill is rigid and your mounting of the brass is solid, you should get repeatable results.

Another option is to use a pre-set trimmer like world's finest trimmer in a drill press and not worry about the quill at all. This is a little more expensive per caliber, but might yield better results if you are worried about accuracy of your quill stop.

 

[Assault116]

If the 1050 is in your budget, get it, I've been kicking myself for going with the 650 instead to save a few bucks, The 1050 is worth the extra.

As to trimming, if you hook up the vacuum on the dillon trimmer it keeps things pretty clean. BUT you aren't going to be able to do 50BMG on it either. In fact very few trimmers for your average case are going to also be able to do the 50's. But if you're shooting 50, you probably know that.

 

[wabashman]

Wtopace,

Mind sharing how you secure the brass with the mill?

Via my phone

 

[iShoot17]

Perhaps I am reading your post wrong... But.. You can set up a Dillon trimmer on either the 650 or 1050. You can also set up bullet drop dies for either press.. Neither of these options come stock for either of the presses though. They are additional equipment that must be purchased.

A significant difference between the 1050 and the 650 is the ability to Swage on the press, without the need to purchase extra equipment. If you need swaging done, I highly suggest the 1050. The 650 and 1050 are presses that certainly cater to different crowds, but both are great machines if maintained and set up properly.

As stated above..the 50 is a no go on the Dillon machines.

And by a lot.. Do you mean of one caliber, or multiple? Buying a 1050 for a specific caliber or possibly a few calibers is one thing.. But if you're loading a bunch of calibers, you could have $1,000s into quick changes, shell plates, etc.

 

[Pinecone]

One thing to consider, the 1050 is a "commercial" press, so only a 1 year warranty. The 650 is lifetime warranty. Not that I have needed many parts, when I have, I call, they send them to me.

If you have to process a LOT of once fired mil brass, the 1050 has a lot going for it. But otherwise, get the 650 and a 600 Super Swager. It is not like you have to swage the brass again.

Another thing to look at is conversion costs. How much (other than dies) to convert from one caliber to another. 1050 costs more.

How long to convert? I can convert my 650 in about 5 minutes. One BIG help on a 650 is to buy a spare primer feeder and keep one small and one large setup. So just two bolts and swap the entire assembly.

 

[Abq-Defense]

Stryker,

IMO, the deciding factor should probably be, "how many rounds you plan to load before setting up to do a different caliber"? As you go up the line, the time to do a caliber change goes up, and the cost to do quick changes goes up. If you post how many rounds you plan to load before setting up to do a different caliber, that may help.

I opted for a Giraud trimmer instead of doing it on my Dillon 650. I didn't want to try to work with a vacuum cleaner hose dangling around and possibly falling out. It also seemed pretty loud in the online videos. Just some thoughts to consider...

 

[gimpy]

I have the 550, 650, and 1050. I had been trimming my 223 on the 1050. I think I'm going to start doing it on the 650 because I should have better suction withe the trim head and because the 650 is smoother in my opinion. That said, I will still load all my bulk 223 on the 1050. It's my opinion that rifle should be done on the 550 or the 1050. Can the 650 do rifle? Yes, but much like an AR shooting 1000 yards. It'll do it, but there are better tools for the job. The more that I think about it, I can't imagine loading without all 3 of them. The 650 does pistol rounds like a dream, the 550 is like a Swiss Army knife, and the 1050 just dominates for mass production.

 

[Powermac]

Okay, so I have a LOT of brass and components laying around. WAY too much to do one at a time using my preferred single stage setup.

So I've decided to get a Dillon. But which one? The 650XL or the 1050 Super? The 650XL will auto trim brass whereas the 1050 isn't setup for that yet. The 1050 also drops bullets, it looks like all you do is pull the handle up and down unless something goes wrong. It would likely be the fastest. Provided it loads all my cartridges.

Second is trimming. I need to trim everything from 9mm on up to .50BMG and I'd like ONE quality setup to do it all. I was thinking a drill press setup would be the answer to that, but which one? I really don't want to depend on the drill press stop as it's not gonna be that accurate and would prefer one that stops on a die or whatnot.

Any suggestions? Would the Forster be the ticket, or the Lee? Forster is a better name IMO, but doesn't Lee offer trimming without use of the drill press stop gauge? And which ones can handle .50BMG?

Finally, if I'm using a 5 station press to load on and a turret press for .50BMG, is drill press trimming really gonna help, or should I save and pony up for the 650XL and the Dillon trimmers?

Please help, I know some of you have been down this road. I'm looking for precision first and foremost. Thanks.

When it comes to progressive presses i do not have much comments, Dillon is the way to go and to me it sounds like the 1050 is your best bet, from what you desire to do withit. I do not own a progressive as i have no need for it.
So there are people better qualified to answer your question.

Anyway when it comes to a trimmer do yourself a favor and buy a Giraud power trimmer will trim all your rifle cartidges including the 50 BMG.
Keep away from press mounted trimming as suggested above it is really no good, both gunk up your progressive press, and it is not a very precise way to do it.
It is as precise as any other options available more so then many, will save you a lot of time by the bench as it is very fast in use and also saves you the task of deburring and chamfering case mouths. if you use lock rings for a repeatable result on the case holders, and get separate trimmer heads for the cartidges you want, set up and caliber changes are also fast and convenient. Trim length is easily adjustable and repeatable.
Lastly if you trim a lot of brass you will probably have come to the conclusion it is slow and painful work.
Using a Giraud power trimmer makes case trimming a joy compared to any other product on the market, and has made me trim my cases every reload without minding it at all.
It also has a brilliant warranty and customer service is top notch.

It is one of the tools that will never leave my bench,i currently have 2 of them and use one mostly for trimming and one for meplat trimming.

 

[ZombieMonkey]

Unless you are just pumping out thousands of rounds of 223 I recommend the 650. Handles pistol like a dream compared to the Hornady LNL AP I had for 5 years before the 650. Does a good job with the 223 I process on it as well, I typically load in batches of 500-1000 rounds before switching calibers. Cost for conversions is cheaper on the 650, caliber changes are faster on the 650, and is in no way will the average user find themselves handicapped compared to the 1050. The 1050 is a beautiful machine, just don't think it's something needed for most people's uses.

Biggest thing with these machines is you need to keep them clean, otherwise they sill start to rear their ugly heads with gunned up primer assemblies causing primer detonations or other stops in production. My only advice to you if you go to the 650 is do not buy one of the swaging kits for it, extended use with those units is beginning to prove why Dillon has been saying not to use them for quite some time as people are seeing deformed/cracked shell plates, etc. Dillon is no longer warrantying the damage caused by that sort of behavior as people have been taking advantage of it.

Can't comment on trimming, I do all trimming with a Giraud, which will not accomplish your goals of 50 BMG

 

[Strykervet]

I'll try to answer all the replies, for some reason I didn't get notified in real time.

1. I read the 1050 DID NOT have the ability to accept the trimmer. Is this a certain trimmer? The 1500 or 1200? I kinda need the one to convert .300BLk. And yes, I do know the auto trimmers have a vacuum installed. I'd prefer the 1050, perhaps someone could PM me and fill me in on the ins and outs of that system? What it does and doesn't do?

2. Yes, there is an auto trimmer for .50BMG. It's dedicated to their .50BMG turret press, which I also plan on getting since I'll be loading for both a DTA HTI and an M3HB/GAU-16A/B.

3. If fast and cheaper method exists for accurately trimming all brass from 9mm to .50BMG, say on a press, I'm interested. Hell, I could hire a kid to do that for me!

4. I will be loading GROSS amounts of ammo. I've been collecting components for nearly 15 years. I have WAY more than I could ever load in a lifetime on a single stage, despite my love for that RCBS rock chucker! Anyway, I need to crank out practice ammo and decent target ammo on a larger scale. If the 1050 is more ideal, and according to most of you it is, then I may go that route.

5. A question I didn't ask before, but would you purchase a used 1050? I can think of a lot of things that can go wrong with such a complex machine like that and I'd hate to get a lemon. Or missing parts.

6. I load slightly obscure rounds. Will the 1050 accommodate 9mm, .40, 10mm, .45ACP, 5.56mm, 6.5G, .300BLK, .50Beowulf, 7.62mm, possible .300 magnums and .338LapMags. In addition, can these be trimmed on the 1050?

7. Would it behoove me to acquire a drill press trimmer and do it that way considering all the different chamberings? And which one, Forster, Lee, etc.? I like the ones that don't use the drill presses' stop vs. gauge or die stops. What's the difference in time, ie, how long does it take (approx.) to trim 100pieces 5.56 on an auto trimmer vs. 100pieces on a drill press for example?

8. Any additional info you could give me would be greatly appreciated. Please feel free to PM me too, I want to make a good decision on this because I may only get to do it once.

Bottom line I'm looking to load a LOT of brass of varying calibers including .50BMG. A single stage is simply out of the question for all but the most accurate of loads. So any help moving up would be appreciated as it's daunting to say the least when you make a jump from a single stage to a 1050!

 

[Strykervet]

So I found this on Dillon's site regarding the trimmer for the 1050. It's the 1200 model and I thought the 1500 model was needed and it doesn't fit the 1050 as far as I know:

"In order to trim 300 AAC Blackout, you must be aware of the following:

You MUST be using an XL650 machine

You MUST use the RT1500 trimmer

You MUST use the Dillon Short Trim Die Toolhead #62112

You may use Either the GSI 300 AAC Blackout steel two die set #12237
OR
The Dillon Carbide 300 AAC Blackout Trim Die #62140

At this time we do not offer a toolhead that allows trimming 300 AAC Blackout on either the RL550B or the 1050 machines. "

I'd really like the 1050 as it does everything else I want, but I've gotta rectify this BLK trimming method. I'd prefer to use it on the press to make it faster.

Is it necessary to purchase BOTH the 1050 for loading and then the 650 for trimming/loading? I really hate to do this because I already need .50BMG gear, so three Dillon presses plus extras is kinda out of the picture. It's gotta either be the 1050 w/wo auto trimming and/or a drill press trimmer, or the 650 and all the extras...

Again, exactly how are you guys converting and trimming 5.56 to .300BLK on the 1050? What parts are needed, because from the above it looks like it only works on the 650 (for now they say).

 

[Strykervet]

Oh, perhaps I should mention volume. I have ten thousand or more 9mm (though not all have to be loaded) and several thousand LC 5.56 brass, at least half of which I want to convert. I'd like to get more LC 5.56 brass and load several thousand 5.56. This in addition to 6.5G, 7.62, etc.

 

[Assault116]

The 1050 will do the job, with the RT1200 and the trim die in the link below. However, know that dillon will NOT warranty your trimmer if they figure out this is what you are doing, that said if you use your head, you won't have a problem with it either.

Trim dies » BradsWarehouse.com - Custom made 300 AAC Blackout Brass

A friend of mine has been making 300 blackout/whisper brass on his for a long time, like before it was ever called 300 blackout.

If you're planning on building that much 300 blackout brass, and loading 556 I'd think you'd definitely want the 1050 for the swage station on it.

If I were in your shoes, I'd get a 1050 for the blackout converting, and 556 loading and maybe 9mm. Then for your low volume calibers get a basic 550 or single stage them.

Or really save yourself the headache and forget the 300 blackout converting and pay someone else to convert the brass for you, (I know a guy if you're interested in that) and then make your decision based solely on the rest of the equation, which I'd probably say a 650. Although by the time you dress out a 650 completely you're not that far from a 1050 in price.

 

[ZombieMonkey]

Oh, perhaps I should mention volume. I have ten thousand or more 9mm (though not all have to be loaded) and several thousand LC 5.56 brass, at least half of which I want to convert. I'd like to get more LC 5.56 brass and load several thousand 5.56. This in addition to 6.5G, 7.62, etc.

Honestly, you keep saying you want to do a lifetime of ammo, but the amount you're talking about is very easy for the 650. If you were loading several thousands of rounds a month just to maintain your current shooting habits, sure, the 1050 would be more appropriate. But that doesn't sound like the case and I really think the 650 would cover your stated production needs just fine.

 

[Strykervet]

Yeah, and I do have more "down time" than most. I also have more time in general than most, so a little slower machine won't kill me.

So the 1050 WILL do it, they just don't warrant it, the trimmer I mean? I think there's another guy here that says you definitely DON'T want to use the swage station on the 1050? I'm confused.

I think the 650 will do all I need it to do and still be covered and it's been reiterated here numerous times. I also considered getting the 650 based on price and ability to trim BLK, and after I get the BMG junk, then IF I need a 1050, maybe I can upgrade to one then and have four presses --they won't go to waste, trust me. Now it looks like the biggest difference between the 650 and 1050 is that I'll have to load my own bullets on the 650 and the 1050 is automatic. That and the 650 will handle bigger trim jobs. Is that about the gist of it? Am I missing something crucial? I also need to load Grendel in bulk, and I'm guessing the 650 will handle that as well as popular sundry pistol ammo?

I looked at a couple drill presses, granted they were new and sort of higher-middle end ($400 for a stand model, the stops on them looked pretty decent too). But all said and done, I could go auto for about the same price using the Dillon, no?

And is there a good .50BMG trim station for the drill press?

I know I'm throwing a lot of questions out, but trust me, your answers are helping make a decision given all the variables I'm dealing with here. While this decision may be easy peasy for some of you, I've only used this anal single stage method for YEARS and I just can't keep up with the volume anymore so this is new to me.

500-800rds. per hour is PERFECTLY fine with me regarding output and that's what they say the 650 will do. It looks like the 650 may be the best for me, but I don't want to miss anything. I can't help but think that I'm missing something because $600 for the 650 vs. $1700 for the 1050... That's gotta be a lot more than an auto bullet feeder, no? So what's the price difference?

Any of you wish you'd gotten the 650 once you got the 1050, realizing you got "too much" perhaps or wouldn't be able to fully utilize what it's capable of?

Thanks again for all the replies!

 

[Pinecone]

Oh, perhaps I should mention volume. I have ten thousand or more 9mm (though not all have to be loaded)

That is about 2 days loading on a 650. Without pushing.

I do 800 - 1000 rounds per hour on my 650 with case feeder.

 

[Pinecone]

Yeah, and I do have more "down time" than most. I also have more time in general than most, so a little slower machine won't kill me.

So the 1050 WILL do it, they just don't warrant it, the trimmer I mean? I think there's another guy here that says you definitely DON'T want to use the swage station on the 1050? I'm confused.

I think the 650 will do all I need it to do and still be covered and it's been reiterated here numerous times. I also considered getting the 650 based on price and ability to trim BLK, and after I get the BMG junk, then IF I need a 1050, maybe I can upgrade to one then and have four presses --they won't go to waste, trust me. Now it looks like the biggest difference between the 650 and 1050 is that I'll have to load my own bullets on the 650 and the 1050 is automatic. That and the 650 will handle bigger trim jobs. Is that about the gist of it? Am I missing something crucial? I also need to load Grendel in bulk, and I'm guessing the 650 will handle that as well as popular sundry pistol ammo?

I looked at a couple drill presses, granted they were new and sort of higher-middle end ($400 for a stand model, the stops on them looked pretty decent too). But all said and done, I could go auto for about the same price using the Dillon, no?

And is there a good .50BMG trim station for the drill press?

I know I'm throwing a lot of questions out, but trust me, your answers are helping make a decision given all the variables I'm dealing with here. While this decision may be easy peasy for some of you, I've only used this anal single stage method for YEARS and I just can't keep up with the volume anymore so this is new to me.

500-800rds. per hour is PERFECTLY fine with me regarding output and that's what they say the 650 will do. It looks like the 650 may be the best for me, but I don't want to miss anything. I can't help but think that I'm missing something because $600 for the 650 vs. $1700 for the 1050... That's gotta be a lot more than an auto bullet feeder, no? So what's the price difference?

Any of you wish you'd gotten the 650 once you got the 1050, realizing you got "too much" perhaps or wouldn't be able to fully utilize what it's capable of?

Thanks again for all the replies!

The 1050 is only a 1 year warranty on the press. 650/550/etc are lifetime.

The will not warranty damage to 650 press parts if you use a 3rd party swager on it. The 1050 has the sager built in.

But if you are doing one time loading, a 600 Swager and some time in front of the TV set and you are good to go. The 1050 is more for the person loading nothing but once fired mil brass, and cranking out tens of thousands of rounds per week. Basically a commercial operation.

 

[OF&B]

I used to make 300 whisper brass with a RCBS trim die in a Rockchucker mounted on an angle plate on my mill. The quill was locked in position and a 1/2" end mill was kept running above the die. Worked pretty good, but as mentioned above left a lot of brass everywhere.

I think Dillon is up to 4 trimmer motors now. One is dedicated to the 50. One is the same as their standard trimmer, but with stronger thrust bearings for the extra cutting the 223 to 300 conversion requires. There is one with a longer shaft to accommodate shorter calibers. The original trimmer motor handles cases with lengths as short as 223 to as long as you can fit in the press using their standard tool heads.

The trimmer setup comes with a collar that fits around the die to connect it to a vacuum. I use a cheapie shop vac that fits on a standard 5 gallon bucket. No brass swarf gets into the press.

The trimmer mounts to the trim die, and other than the 50, the trim dies fit in any reloading press that uses standard dies. I can use them in my Rockchucker if I want. The issues with the Dillon presses have to do with the length of the cases, the thickness of the tool heads, and clearance for the vacuum collar. Long before Dillon offered a solution, people were using the standard trimmer, custom CH4D trim dies, and modified (milled cut outs for the vacuum collar) tool heads to make 300 whisper on 650s and 1050s.

None of the Dillon dies or motors will trim pistol cases. The Dillon trim die selection is limited, but if you're patient CH4D will make them for just about anything. I have a 6.5 Creedmoor trim die I bought from someone who had it finally appear nearly a year after he ordered it and a few months after he sold the gun. The Dillon trimmer doesn't chamfer the case mouth. When compared to the Giraud, it's six of one half dozen of the other. With the Giraud, you size the case, and then handle it to trim. The Dillon sizes and trims, but then you have to handle it to chamfer. The Dillon trims referenced to the base of the case and gives more consistent OAL than the Giraud that indexes off the shoulder. It's a minor point.

The Dillon trim dies also produce extremely concentric cases, but don't decap. That means you can't use them in position 1 of a 650 or 550. I'm using a 650 now and do the 2 tool head solution. Decap with a Lee universal decapper in station 1, size and trim with the Dillon trimmer in position 3 or 4, and if necessary expand the case neck with a Sinclair expanding mandrel in station 5. After cleaning the lube off and chamfering, a second tool head primes, charges, and seats the bullet. I use a second Lee universal decapper on the second tool head to make sure the flash hole is clear. With a case feeder, two trips is not that big a deal. If you want it all in one pass, the 1050 is how it's done. With brass that was trimmed the loading or two before, I back off the trimmer to save the chamfering step.

For 223 length cases, I use one of the Whidden billet 650 tool heads upside down to give more clearance at the top.

Changing calibers on the 650 is straight forward. After you've done it a few times, it takes ~20 minutes. I had a 450 with most of the 550 upgrades before the 650. The principal disadvantage of the 550 for what you want to do is the case feeder won't handle rifle cases. I didn't like the priming system as well as the 650, and auto indexing is the way to go with a progressive.

For what you want to do, I'd suggest the 650 and the heavy duty trimmer motor.

 

[ZombieMonkey]

So the 1050 WILL do it, they just don't warrant it, the trimmer I mean? I think there's another guy here that says you definitely DON'T want to use the swage station on the 1050? I'm confused.

I think you got confused due to the large amount of info going around. There's absolutely nothing wrong with using the swage station on the 1050, works well when adjusted properly for your brass. It's the 650 you do not want to use the aftermarket swage on, they put more pressure on the shell plate than Dillon designed the press for, which can damage components of the press. Dillon will not warrant this damage anymore as the problems have been growing in number for them. According to the guys at Dillon I've talked to while just shooting the shit in their lobby, it's pretty easy for Dillon to tell if you've been using the aftermarket swage as it will cause deformation and cracking to the shell plate.

I don't think you'll ever say the 1050 was too much machine, but for the average user the 650 will be a little quicker for caliber swaps and will more than cover the needs of most loaders. I really love the 650 for pistol calibers, it's about perfect for that. The 1050 is definitely much better suited for bulk rifle ammo though and is overkill for pistol ammo in my eyes unless you are wanting to run an auto-drive and really crank out some ammo.

The biggest benefits to the 1050 in my eyes are that it has a better priming system, swaging capabilities for military brass (again, one time need and a super swage or other tool can be used to bypass this need). Downside is that it is even more costly than the 650 for multiple tool heads setup for quick changes and Dillon does not offer the same no BS warranty on the 1050 as it is more geared to the commercial loader.

 

[dhg2]

Can't comment on trimming, I do all trimming with a Giraud, which will not accomplish your goals of 50 BMG

Incorrect, the powered case trimmer will handle up to .50BMG all day long and twice on Sunday.

Doug Giraud
Giraud Tool Company, Inc.

 

[ZombieMonkey]

Learn something new every day, didn't think there would be a shell holder big enough for 50 BMG, I stand corrected. In that case it would most definitely be my recommendation to the OP, love Doug's machine. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[rjacobs]

IF you want to use a 1050 to convert 5.56 to 300BLK you have to mill the tool head at station 6(which kills station 5 and 7), which basically ruins the tool head for any other function. This is necessary to uncover the vacuum ports on the trim die. The standard RT1200 can do the job, but the newer RT1500 is designed for the single pass cutting. I use Whidden trim dies, I have no experience with the new Dillon carbide die, but plan to order one to test.

There is no problem with trimming on a progressive with Dillons setup. I have converted some 50k+ LC 5.56 to 300BLK and its clean, but I have a crazy vacuum setup. I have also trimmed countless thousands of 5.56 and .308 and, again, clean. I have a 1050 w/Forcht auto drive dedicated to brass prep(300BLK, 5.56, .308) and a 1050 dedicated to loading(9mm, 300blk, 5.56). Each brass prep tool head has its own trimmer(RT1500 for 300BLK, rt1200 for 5.56 and .308).

I LOVE my 1050's and everybody who has ever used them LOVES them too, until I tell them the price and how much money is sitting on my bench.

You keep saying "the 1050 will load the bullets", but thats not true unless you buy something like a "Mr. Bullet Feeder" for another 500ish bucks. Well worth it, but you could put one on a 650 OR a 1050.

Nothing wrong with a 650. I like the primer operation on the 1050 better(seating on the stroke vs. having to push PLUS no primers dropping out of the machine if they dont get put into brass), swage on the 1050(while somebody is making a swage for the 650, I have heard of it breaking several presses and shell plates and Dillon wont warranty), tons of flexibility with 8 stations, etc... 1050 is expensive, everything about it is expensive. Caliber changes are 400-600 bucks with a new tool head, shell plates, locator buttons, case colater, dies(including swage die, powder funnel, etc...), and the Mr. Bullet feeder conversion(if you buy one).


To the OP: it seems like you have never seen any of these machines. Is this the case? You need to see these machines in person before you can decide IMO. I bought my first 1050 for my 300BLK conversion business, immediately put auto drive on it, and turn out GREAT brass. When I was looking for a second machine to actually load on I did the whole 650 vs. 1050 debate and buying another 1050 was the way to go FOR ME. You need to put some hands on these machines with somebody who actually has experience with them.

We are probably loading around 30k rounds a month on my 1050, maybe more some months. I let all my buddies come use it(under my supervision of course). If I was loading 3-5k rounds a month there is NO WAY I would spend the money for a 1050 when a 650 with case feeder would get it done for half the cost.

 

[Deadshot2]

That is about 2 days loading on a 650. Without pushing.

I do 800 - 1000 rounds per hour on my 650 with case feeder.

Yesterday I was de-priming, sizing, trimming, and expanding necks on a bucket full of LC .223 brass using my XL-650. A depriming die in #1, a RT-1200 in #3 and a Lee Collet die (just for the mandrel to expand he necks) in #5.

I have an SA Development "Press Monitor" and it showed I was processing the cases at a rate of 1350/hr. I'll now switch the tool head and load at a little more sedate rate of 900-1000. Takes time to fill the primer magazine and powder hopper .

Swaging by 600 is a one time event and I only have to drag it out when I start a new batch of crimped brass. About once per year for me.

 

[Strykervet]

Okay, first off thanks for ALL THE GOOD ADVICE YOU GUYS HAVE GIVEN! I truly appreciate it. And yes, there is a lot of information going on around here and yes, looking at these machines before purchasing would be GREAT, but there just isn't a place around here I'm aware of that I can check out Dillon gear anymore. I think Bullseye used to do it and carry more prior to the Beltway "sniper" (murderer). Anyway, not much in the way of reloading gear in stores here sadly, I guess most folks shot online for it. Because in the last decade, these stores have carried less and less...

So that's why I'm depending on you so much. Yes, I'll likely be making a blind decision. But from what I can gather, this 650XL with some upgrades right off the bat and then some later down the road should suit me just fine for now, the foreseeable future and maybe beyond. It's true, I won't be loading tens of thousands per month. To begin with and catch up, yeah, then afterwards I'll buy components in bulk and do 5000rd. or so runs.

So let me get this right. I can trim 5.56, .300BLK (as well as convert) 7.62 and 6.5G on the 650? But no pistol brass? So I'll still need a trimmer option for all the pistol brass I have accumulated that does require regular trimming? What would you guys using the 650 and the auto trimmer use or prefer if you could use what you want? A drill press model? What? I still need to trim fast, regardless.

I think I'm good on the .50BMG setup now. I just need the money and I need to find all the right dies. I'll have to look through my threads and find the one where everyone gave me the best die makers. I forget the name, but have 'em picked out. I'll use those dies, the Dillon BFR progressive, likely their primer seater and certainly their trimmer along with a quality seating mic die if possible.

For primer pocket swaging, yes, a one time operation for all the mil brass. But I have an RCBS brass prep station and I can even bring it out in front of a TV or watch a movie I guess and prep what I can. It's a stupid looking tool, but it's saved me a lot of time and hassle so far (using a single stage though).

BIG QUESTION: Are these automatic powder dumps on the 650XL, can/will they fill within tolerance? Meaning, can/will it dump the same or VERY similar amount of powder I'd get were I to dispense and load each round? This basically makes a huge difference in whether or not the ammo produced on the 650 will ONLY be good for range ammo or practice ammo, forcing me to still use the single stage in order to get quality and consistent ammo. Has anyone found this to be true? Anyone know the difference between the consistency of rounds using hand weighed powder vs. the powder dump?

 

[Strykervet]

BTW, it looks like based on the advice given above, I'll be going with the 650XL here soon. Real soon. So if anyone knows of critical upgrades I should get now when I order it, that'd be appreciated. I'll of course call them, but I want you guy's expertise first. You're not selling me anything.

I think I want the auto brass feeder and different plates and I think I need the 2 different powder checks. I'd like the aluminum roller handle (unless you guys think I can find/build something equally as well for half the price) and the strong mount looked like it may be needed. I will be using a VERY strong table, so I don't need a pedestal but a perhaps having it elevated over bench securely isn't a bad idea. I think I can live without the aluminum bullet tray (unless I'm missing something here and I'd like to add a bullet feed to it later anyway since someone on here said I can) and I think I can live without the toolholder and wrench set.

I know I need different shellplates for different loads, right? And what about primer pickup tubes, how does the 650 prime brass and when does it do it? Is there anything else I'm missing? Critical parts you guys wish you'd bought outright?

Very close to pulling the trigger on this, just wanna get the order right. Thanks again, you've all helped me a lot regarding these Dillons.

 

[rjacobs]

BIG QUESTION: Are these automatic powder dumps on the 650XL, can/will they fill within tolerance? Meaning, can/will it dump the same or VERY similar amount of powder I'd get were I to dispense and load each round? This basically makes a huge difference in whether or not the ammo produced on the 650 will ONLY be good for range ammo or practice ammo, forcing me to still use the single stage in order to get quality and consistent ammo. Has anyone found this to be true? Anyone know the difference between the consistency of rounds using hand weighed powder vs. the powder dump?

The dillon powder drops, IMO are VERY consistent with ball powders(on a run of 12k rounds of 9mm with TiteGroup over the course of 2 days we checked prior to running each morning and at lunch each day, same weight every time). Stick powders, not so much, but thats not a Dillon issue, thats a volumetric powder dropper issue. All volume based throwers(including the vaunted Harrel's) have the issue with stick powders like Varget. I would say, with stick powders, .2g of variance would be considered "great" while .4-.5g variance would be considered "normal". Again, not a Dillon issue, per say, but a volumetric thrower issue. There are a few tweaks you can do like polishing the powder bars and what not that can help, but its just harder to consistently stack stick powders into the thrower bars.

 

[ZombieMonkey]

BIG QUESTION: Are these automatic powder dumps on the 650XL, can/will they fill within tolerance? Meaning, can/will it dump the same or VERY similar amount of powder I'd get were I to dispense and load each round? This basically makes a huge difference in whether or not the ammo produced on the 650 will ONLY be good for range ammo or practice ammo, forcing me to still use the single stage in order to get quality and consistent ammo. Has anyone found this to be true? Anyone know the difference between the consistency of rounds using hand weighed powder vs. the powder dump?

Most ball powders meter very well, the only exception can be some of the very fine powders like AA#7. They can sometimes slip in-between the sliding powder measure plates when using the small powder bar which will bind up the machine. There are fixes / workarounds for this if you happen to encounter it. I have dealt with it on one of my powder measures while another was perfectly fine. Your flake powders typically meter very well and I've yet to run into any issues with them. Short cut stick powders are fairly consistent, though things like Varget and larger are going to have a wider variance as with any powder measure.

 

[ZombieMonkey]

BTW, it looks like based on the advice given above, I'll be going with the 650XL here soon. Real soon. So if anyone knows of critical upgrades I should get now when I order it, that'd be appreciated. I'll of course call them, but I want you guy's expertise first. You're not selling me anything.

I think I want the auto brass feeder and different plates and I think I need the 2 different powder checks. I'd like the aluminum roller handle (unless you guys think I can find/build something equally as well for half the price) and the strong mount looked like it may be needed. I will be using a VERY strong table, so I don't need a pedestal but a perhaps having it elevated over bench securely isn't a bad idea. I think I can live without the aluminum bullet tray (unless I'm missing something here and I'd like to add a bullet feed to it later anyway since someone on here said I can) and I think I can live without the toolholder and wrench set.

I know I need different shellplates for different loads, right? And what about primer pickup tubes, how does the 650 prime brass and when does it do it? Is there anything else I'm missing? Critical parts you guys wish you'd bought outright?

Very close to pulling the trigger on this, just wanna get the order right. Thanks again, you've all helped me a lot regarding these Dillons.

As far as necessities go:
-Caliber conversion kits will need to be purchased for each caliber you have minus whichever comes with the press. You can piece together the necessary small parts to use in multiple calibers as some parts may overlap, but then you have to always reference the stupid chart or have a list to deal with. I personally go the conversion kit route, it's less for me to worry about.
-Tool head and powder die for each caliber, will need two for rifle calibers unless you are doing case prep and loading all in one process. Many of us have a prep tool head and a loading tool head for rifle calibers. My preference is to purchase a quick change kit for each caliber you load, then it's always setup and ready to load, no moving powder hoppers around. Just add your powder, verify that it's still dropping the correct charge and you're off. Definitely is the more expensive way to go though, but it's nice having it and the kit comes with the stand to hold the assembly.


As far as additions that really make things convenient they can really be a matter of personal preference, but I like a lot of Dillon's accessories. Here's what I recommend:
-Case feeder. With the speed and ease you will be loading on a 650, you're seriously handicapping the machine without one.
-Aluminum roller handle. Really helps reduce fatigue over longer strings of loading.
-Strong mount (or comparable from inline fabrication). I used to not really thing they were needed, but they seem to stiffen up any press you put these style mounts on as they spread the mounting of the press over a larger surface area.
-Tool holder. You will be using them a lot and all of the needed sizes are there in an easy to reach location which convenient storage. For the minimal price, it's a nice addition.
-Bullet tray. Keeps the bullets close to the shell plate for less wasted motion with working with the strong mount.
-Spare primer assembly. Keep one assembled in large and one in small, makes primer size switches a breeze.
-Spare primer pickup tubes. Put 100 in the machine and then load up a number of other tubes to have ready on standby for when that low primer alarm starts sounding.
-Spent primer upgrade and live primer catcher from http://www.dillonupgrades.com (I do not recommend drilling the strong mount for the spent primer catcher though, the plastic they use for the bracket doesn't last for long and will break leaving you with unnecessary holes in your mount...been there, done that)

The one thing that I do not fool with that some people do are powder checks. You have to be a determined bastard to double charge a round on a 650 with a Dillon powder measure unlike say the Hornady LNL AP's powder measure that I used with that press. A powder check will spot a seriously off charge, but you can do that visually as well if you are paying attention as you should. Some people like them for piece of mind though.

 

[Pinecone]

What pistol calibers are you loading that require trimming?

I load 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP on mine and have NEVER trimmed a case.

 

[rjacobs]

The one thing that I do not fool with that some people do are powder checks. You have to be a determined bastard to double charge a round on a 650 with a Dillon powder measure unlike say the Hornady LNL AP's powder measure that I used with that press. A powder check will spot a seriously off charge, but you can do that visually as well if you are paying attention as you should. Some people like them for piece of mind though.

I agree. Never felt a need to have a powder check. Between my 550b and 1050 I think I have loaded 50k rounds of pistol between 9mm and 45 and NEVER had the powder thrower NOT drop powder(unless I short stroked the press, but I generally KNOW when I do that and have to stop and correct the condition which also forces me to look into every case to see where I left off or how I need to reposition cases). And the powder droppers for ball powders are, again IME, very consistent. I basically only load with ball powders though on the Dillon machines(TiteGroup, H335, A1680, H110) and everything else is done in such smaller quantities that its done on a Co-Ax and Chargemaster combo.

 

[Strykervet]

What pistol calibers are you loading that require trimming?

I load 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP on mine and have NEVER trimmed a case.

10mm, .357, .50, etc. Those tend to stretch more than the smaller auto pistol rounds do, especially when hot. I'm more interested in trimming rifle brass but would like to be able to trim whatever I'm using fast and efficient. An RCBS chucked up to a Dewalt just isn't doing it for me anymore.

Thanks again guys for all that info. I use a lot of flake and stick powders, so that's why I was wondering about the powder measure --none of them meter all that well from the RCBS dump (which I replaced with a digital dump and scale and that works great with a little tweaking and it catches ALL errors). But if I have to weigh each individual round like I do now, there won't be a need for a faster press.

Would you guys avoid using powders like some Viht powders, 800x or Varget? Do you tend to look for ball powders that work (meaning is that a variable in your decision when working on a load?).

 

[jmorris]

748, TAC, Xtermanator and other ball powders meter a lot better than extruded powders do.

I have loaded .223 on 650's but prefer a 1050.

Here is one of mine 100 rounds takes 2.5 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La83ZVKnBzw

My computer controled version is not as fast but it will run by itself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrFhnDQ-eUU

 

[OF&B]

With the powder measure, as discussed above, there are powders that work and those that don't. It's something that needs to be considered when developing your loads. Ball, flake, and finer extruded powders work. By the time you get to Varget, not so much if you want to hold plus or minus a tenth. Even if you use a digital trickler and seat the bullets one at a time, you will still have used the progressive features to haul ass through the decapping, sizing, and trimming. The Dillon trim dies produce very concentric cases.

One aggravation with the Dillon powder measure is the adjustment. It can easily be half the caliber change time and have you throwing tools before you're done. The Micrometer adjustment from Unique Tek is worth having for every size charge bar you have. Skip the extra small, it doesn't get you much lower than the small. Buying another powder measure for every caliber is Dillon's solution.

I have an older Mr Bulletfeeder unit that I use for pistol ammo. I was able to put 100 pistol rounds through the press in ~14-15 minutes with the 450/550 w/o a case feeder. The 650 with a case feeder brought that down to 7-8 minutes, and with the bullet feeder it's 3-4 minutes and much easier mentally than any of the others. With 2 digital tricklers going, I can charge and seat 100 precision rounds in ~45 minutes. The case sizing/trimming operation is ~3 minutes per 100.

 

[jmorris]

One aggravation with the Dillon powder measure is the adjustment. It can easily be half the caliber change time and have you throwing tools before you're done. The Micrometer adjustment from Unique Tek is worth having for every size charge bar you have. Skip the extra small, it doesn't get you much lower than the small. Buying another powder measure for every caliber is Dillon's solution.

My solution was to just buy a bunch of extra powder bars and set/label them for the different loads. You get two with each press (large and small) it only takes backing off one bolt to swap them out.

 

[Pinecone]

I have several powder measures and set up for calibers I load a lot.

For others, I do the spare charge bar method. I paint the end of the bar white, then write the caliber on it with a Sharpie.

 

[Deadshot2]

Changing calibers on the 650 is straight forward. After you've done it a few times, it takes ~20 minutes.

This changeover time is also a great time to perform basic maintenance that will keep the press operating trouble free. For me that amounts to pretty much cleaning any spent primer residue or errant powder granules off the head of he ram and putting some lube where it belongs.

BTW, I have my change/maintenance time down to ~15 minutes

Also helps to have an extra primer mechanism. Just a couple of bolts and no need to disassemble to change primer plate.

 

[jmorris]

Also helps to have an extra primer mechanism. Just a couple of bolts and no need to disassemble to change primer plate.

I prefer to have at least two complete presses. That way all you have to do is scoot over to the one that is setup for the correct primer size and you have at least one of any spare part you might need at anytime.

 

[Pinecone]

I agree. Never felt a need to have a powder check. Between my 550b and 1050 I think I have loaded 50k rounds of pistol between 9mm and 45 and NEVER had the powder thrower NOT drop powder(unless I short stroked the press, but I generally KNOW when I do that and have to stop and correct the condition which also forces me to look into every case to see where I left off or how I need to reposition cases). And the powder droppers for ball powders are, again IME, very consistent. I basically only load with ball powders though on the Dillon machines(TiteGroup, H335, A1680, H110) and everything else is done in such smaller quantities that its done on a Co-Ax and Chargemaster combo.

And if you stand slightly to the left (also makes feeding bullets easier) you can look into the case to see the powder.

 

[Pinecone]

I prefer to have at least two complete presses. That way all you have to do is scoot over to the one that is setup for the correct primer size and you have at least one of any spare part you might need at anytime.

Yeah, that works also. But it costs a bit more.

 

[rjacobs]

And if you stand slightly to the left (also makes feeding bullets easier) you can look into the case to see the powder.

On the 550b this is true. Its not really so easy on the 1050, to much shit in the way blocking your view.

 

[jmorris]

On the 550b this is true. Its not really so easy on the 1050, to much shit in the way blocking your view.

A powder check fits in station #6.

What is this "shit in the way" you are talking about? The only thing in the front of a 1050 is the tube full of cases, the only thing it blocks the view of is station #1. There is absolutely nothing that blocks the view of #7, where you would seat a bullet.

 

[Deadshot2]

Yeah, that works also. But it costs a bit more.

I've found that going the multiple machine method is fine but since you still have to maintain both, why? Just use the changeover time to do maintenance, especially cleaning the primer feed mechanism and under the shell plate.

Get large bins for each caliber. When fired dump the cases in the appropriate bin. When the bin's full, do a reloading session for that caliber. Make the changeover time worthwhile and just put the extra thou or so into another firearm or more ammo/components.

I bought my Progressive for LARGE runs of ammo (1K or more). For short runs of a box or two I just use my RCBS Summit.

 

[rjacobs]

A powder check fits in station #6.

What is this "shit in the way" you are talking about? The only thing in the front of a 1050 is the tube full of cases, the only thing it blocks the view of is station #1. There is absolutely nothing that blocks the view of #7, where you would seat a bullet.

Im not talking about #7, im talking about #6. Its a little difficult on a 1050 to see well into a case in station 6 to see if it has powder in it. You would basically be looking through the tool head(impossible to do) or you would be at such an odd angle that you wouldnt be efficient running the machine because you would be so far to the left you would have to sway back to the right to run the handle which would slow you WAY down. Like I have said, I dont run powder checks because I trust(and verify obviously) that the Dillon throwers are throwing what I want and I havent had an issue with a squib load(yet). For 9mm, I am running 4.3g of titegroup. A double charge completely fills the case and there is no way you would cram a bullet in there(I have tried it to make sure, press locks up). So my only issue would be a squib load, but, as long as I run the press a full stroke which is pretty hard to NOT do with a 1050, and if for some reason I do have to backup, I personally stop and see exactly what has happened at each step, especially primer and powder, I have never seen the dillon powder throwers NOT throw a charge. Im sure its possible if something breaks(return rod or something), but so far I havent seen it.

I also plan to run a Mr. Bullet Feeder at some point, so paying for a powder check that I wouldnt be able to use later on is pointless. I know, run the MRB in station 7 and a combo die in station 8, nah, I dont like combo dies. Would rather just not run a powder check.

If I was loading on my auto drive 1050, I probably WOULD run a powder check and a combo seating/crimp die with the MRB, but I dont load on that machine, just brass prep.

 

[jmorris]

You can seat then crimp in two stations and retain a powder check with the GSI feeders, see 2nd video in post #33.

Because they are not only the bullet feeder but a machined billet tool head it also makes them a pretty good deal on the 1050. A regular 1050 tool head from Dillon is $200 by the time it gets to your door, the GSI bullet feeder/tool head is $321.

 

[Deadshot2]

as long as I run the press a full stroke

For those that have progressive presses and want to have a good tool to avoid this, the SA Development Press Monitor is a great item.

I've had one for a couple of years now and on the 650 (mine) it tells you if you fail to make a full stroke forward to seat a primer. It also catches you if you start to make a stroke upward then stop and return the ram to rest position. It can monitor the number of rounds produced and also keep track of powder used. Set the unit with the amount of powder in the reservoir (by weighing), set the charge weight, and when you are finished with the run it will tell you how much powder you should have left. A nice overall QC check.

Not really a "must have" but a real neat "would like to have". It also includes an LED light that you position so you can see into the case before seating a bullet.

Also can be setup for manual progressives and will warn you if you forget to advance the shell plate.

 

[Strykervet]

Thanks guys so much, I think I'm gonna go with the 650 here. You folks really helped me out a lot.

So in hindsight, what parts or accessories would you have gotten with the 650 up front or right away? What do you consider necessary, can't live without items for this press? I plan on trimming and loading on it, including converting 5.56 to .300BLK.

And I still don't see what makes the 1050 cost a full $1100 more than the 650. I'm sure I'm missing something, I just can't tell what. But it may be non-sequitur since I can't convert brass on the 1050 anyway.

Thanks again!

 

[rjacobs]

You CAN convert on a 1050, you just have to have the tool head milled which any shop with a milling machine can do for 20-30 bucks, BUT that ruins that tool head for basically anything else.

For a 650, get a case feeder. If you dont, the speed, IMO, isnt much faster than a 550b since the slowest parts of the whole operation are putting the case in and the bullet in. The manual indexing on a 550b isnt what holds the operation speed up IMO.

Get the 1500 trimmer, dont get the 1200. Dont believe what Dillon says about it, it works with whatever. No changes were made(basically) below the motor itself. It screws on to the same dies, has the same reach, same carbide cutter insert, etc... The 1500 will trim whatever you want. I think Dillon has a disclaimer about it, but I have experience with it and it will do whatever you want. Get the dillon milled tool head and their single pass conversion die. No need with the 1500 to do 2 pass conversion with the GSI die's.

 

[Deadshot2]

Thanks guys so much, I think I'm gonna go with the 650 here. You folks really helped me out a lot.

So in hindsight, what parts or accessories would you have gotten with the 650 up front or right away? What do you consider necessary, can't live without items for this press? I plan on trimming and loading on it, including converting 5.56 to .300BLK.

And I still don't see what makes the 1050 cost a full $1100 more than the 650. I'm sure I'm missing something, I just can't tell what. But it may be non-sequitur since I can't convert brass on the 1050 anyway.

Thanks again!

If you want ANY question answered about a Dillon Press or accessory, call Brian Enos at (877) 219-5598 Toll-free

Brian is as knowledgeable on Dillon as anyone. He sells Dillon to a huge number of Competitors and "First Timers". Unlike the Customer Service people at Dillon he'll be able to help you put together a package that is as he says "how it should be from Dillon". I bought my 650 from Brian and he walked me though putting a package together that included everything needed for MY bench as well as talking me out of some other items that he felt would just end up sitting in the cupboard unused. Has a whole bunch of money saving solutions should you want to use the press for a multitude of calibers without really costing you any extra time.

In short, call Brian and get a quote from him on a package. He has a "Free Shipping" program as well as the fact that he's a nice guy.

 

[Strykervet]

If you want ANY question answered about a Dillon Press or accessory, call Brian Enos at (877) 219-5598 Toll-free

Brian is as knowledgeable on Dillon as anyone. He sells Dillon to a huge number of Competitors and "First Timers". Unlike the Customer Service people at Dillon he'll be able to help you put together a package that is as he says "how it should be from Dillon". I bought my 650 from Brian and he walked me though putting a package together that included everything needed for MY bench as well as talking me out of some other items that he felt would just end up sitting in the cupboard unused. Has a whole bunch of money saving solutions should you want to use the press for a multitude of calibers without really costing you any extra time.

In short, call Brian and get a quote from him on a package. He has a "Free Shipping" program as well as the fact that he's a nice guy.

Thanks, I will call him. And BIG thanks to all you on here -- you overwhelmed me with good advice. This has likely been one of the more fulfilling threads I've started thanks to all you.

It is daunting setting up a complex press like this for the first time and I could use assistance from someone not trying to upsell me on everything. I know I want the case feeder and some other things, but I'm not sure what exactly --I've never used these presses before.

So I think I have all the tools I need to make an informed decision and a few people to contact to help me setup a first time 650 press that'll do what I need.

Big thanks again guys. What sets this forum apart from others.