Upper Build Assembly techniques.

[bigjake83]

I've been instructed to move my questions to another thread so here it is..

@Gingerman You stated that you have a business of building complete Upper Receiver groups. I would be most interested in hearing about your assembly process.

 

[bigjake83]

Yes, American precision arms Gen3 is what you seek, I run them on just about every custom Job I do. I've also used the Cortina adjustable MB as well but the jury is still out on that one.

you can also use the APA MB as a tuner as well by backing the MB off one full turn from the bottom position with the ports at 12 o'clock and lock the jam nut coller, this will move the weight of the MB further forward changing the harmonics.

APA MB screwed down to its furthest most position and then timed at 12:00

APA MB backed out one full Rev and Jam nut locked in place.

 

[Ernest 5.56]

Yes, American precision arms Gen3 is what you seek, I run them on just about every custom Job I do. I've also used the Cortina adjustable MB as well but the jury is still out on that one.

you can also use the APA MB as a tuner as well by backing the MB off one full turn from the first bottom position with the ports at 12 o'clock and lock the jam nut coller, thus will but the weight of the muzzle MB further forward changing the harmonics.

APA MB screwed down to its furthest most position and then timed at 12:00

Thanks for the info I had never thought about it till I heard Tubb mention it on the SH podcast .

How much you of a difference do you see?
Does it have more effect on shrinking group size or just eliminating random fliers?
I know they can certainly be related

 

[bigjake83]

Thanks for the info I had never thought about it till I heard Tubb mention it on the SH podcast .

How much you of a difference do you see?
Does it have more effect on shrinking group size or just eliminating random fliers?
I know they can certainly be related

It should change the extreme spread of your groups in which direction I have no idea.
And to be honest I've never had to try that technique out, I have just known about it for awhile. Once my rifles are consistently shooting in the .3's I leave that shit alone.

I've just finished Load Development on a Custom JP LRI-20, the barrel has fully settled in and is consistently performing at Sub 1/2 MOA

These two loads performed the best but 41.0 provided the lowest SD and ES, SD was 6. with 40.8 and 4. with 41.0 with 140 ELD's and now that the barrel has completely settled in its consistently averaging .3 -.4 so I will give it a try next time I take her out and post the results for better or worse.

 

[Rob01]

Shutting this dumpster fire down before it takes off. If the question was sincere it would be left but obviously just to stir shit. Do it again and a ban will take place.

 

[Rob01]

Edited and opened it back up so some info can be exchanged but if it becomes a pile on of Gingerman then bans will commence and it will disappear.

 

[bigjake83]

So @Gingerman, whats the name of your business?

It sounds like you're hell of a Builder, might need some work done in the future especially since you have such impressive results.
I'm sure other members on here would like to know where to get such quality work done.

 

[ZA206]

IBTL….

 

[ZA206]

Jake…. Do you shim or loctite your barrels into your uppers? How about truing up the receiver face?

 

[B Man]

Jake you’d never believe it. I just had to thermo fit an aero upper. With a little shim stock

 

[MontanaMan]

So @Gingerman, whats the name of your business?

It sounds like you're hell of a Builder, might need some work done in the future especially since you have such impressive results.
I'm sure other members on here would like to know where to get such quality work done.

View attachment 8204837

Just for conversation; seems like Padom has also provided information on Wilson blanks, too. Kinda doubt that you need a barrel lapping kit either.

MM

The Wilson Arms barrel company in Brantford, Connecticut, has been making barrels for over 50+ years and produces the barrels for Cooper Rifles. Wilson Arms has owned Cooper Rifles for almost ten years now. We get the same Select Match Grade quality barrels Cooper does.The Wilson Arms barrels are Select Match Grade, button rifled barrels, lapped and air gauged to .0002.

 

[bigjake83]

Jake…. Do you shim or loctite your barrels into your uppers? How about truing up the receiver face?

No I don't use shim stock and hardly ever use Loctite, all of my builds come with custom barrels from Krieger, Bartlein Douglas..and so on.

Whatever the receiver set of choice is I measure the inner diameter of the upper receiver where the barrel extension slides into and order the barrel extension oversized making the upper receiver a mandatory thermofit.

And yes I always check to make sure the receiver face is concentric to the center of the bore line.

 

[mettee]

Axis perpendicularity not concentricity. Concentricity would be more for muzzle thread to bore comparison.

 

[bigjake83]

Jake…. Do you shim or loctite your barrels into your uppers? How about truing up the receiver face?

I have another LaRue PredatOBR 7.62 coming my way soon that I need to unfuck so I'll make another thread showing everything I do step by step.

 

[6.5SH]

No I don't use shim stock and hardly ever use Loctite, all of my builds come with custom barrels from Krieger, Bartlein Douglas..and so on.

Whatever the receiver set of choice is I measure the inner diameter of the upper receiver where the barrel extension slides into and order the barrel extension oversized making the upper receiver a mandatory thermofit.

And yes I always check to make sure the receiver face is concentric to the center of the bore line.

Are you ordering specific sizes or providing the barrel extensions?

 

[Huskydriver]

I shim mine currently with no complaints on target. I dig ordering the extension oversized tho. How much do you order over the receiver id?

 

[bigjake83]

I shim mine currently with no complaints on target. I dig ordering the extension oversized tho. How much do you order over the receiver id?

Between. 001-.002 some uppers come at the perfect ID where the standard .998 requires thermofit, and others not so much. I've seen some uppers require over 1" to get a proper fit.

 

[impactaddict]

I shim mine currently with no complaints on target. I dig ordering the extension oversized tho. How much do you order over the receiver id?

When I spoke with Jake before making my order with CLE, he suggested the WOA extension. CLE pulled an extension for me but they did mention that WOA is not replacing them anytime soon, so supplies are limited - in CLE's house. A quick search shows that WOA is still making them, but I'm not sure if the "competition" (not sold by name) extension is now just called the "M4 extension". There are no details listed on the M4 extension page.

M4 Extension

Competition Extension Info Page

 

[bigjake83]

When I spoke with Jake before making my order with CLE, he suggested the WOA extension. CLE pulled an extension for me but they did mention that WOA is not replacing them anytime soon, so supplies are limited - in CLE's house. A quick search shows that WOA is still making them, but I'm not sure if the "competition" (not sold by name) extension is now just called the "M4 extension". There are no details listed on the M4 extension page.

M4 Extension

Competition Extension Info Page

Yes unfortunately the WOA Competition Barrel exstenions are impossible to find with no foreseeable restock, I honestly feel that I have the only one in existence right now.

Basically the WOA Competition Barrel Extension is kinda like a scaled down AR-10 Barrel extension design with its longer tenon.

when they were in stock I would order a batch and hand polish them and send it in to CLE with my Bolt for headspacing to the barrel.

 

[FALex]

Just for conversation; seems like Padom has also provided information on Wilson blanks, too. Kinda doubt that you need a barrel lapping kit either.

MM
View attachment 8205041


The Wilson Arms barrel company in Brantford, Connecticut, has been making barrels for over 50+ years and produces the barrels for Cooper Rifles. Wilson Arms has owned Cooper Rifles for almost ten years now. We get the same Select Match Grade quality barrels Cooper does.The Wilson Arms barrels are Select Match Grade, button rifled barrels, lapped and air gauged to .0002.

WA blanks are also the blanks used by JP. Not sure about what magic fairy dust they’re busy sprinkling on barrels in St. Cloud, but it’s gotta be that good good because those fuckers shoot lights out!

 

[msgriff]

When I spoke with Jake before making my order with CLE, he suggested the WOA extension. CLE pulled an extension for me but they did mention that WOA is not replacing them anytime soon, so supplies are limited - in CLE's house. A quick search shows that WOA is still making them, but I'm not sure if the "competition" (not sold by name) extension is now just called the "M4 extension". There are no details listed on the M4 extension page.

M4 Extension

Competition Extension Info Page

WOA competition barrel extension: "The outside diameter is .999 rather than the standard .998 of most standard extensions".

Lilja has M4 type extensions which are 0.999" OD. $40

 

[whatsupdoc]

And yes I always check to make sure the receiver face is concentric to the center of the bore line.

What about the SP10 uppers or IRMT-3 uppers, do mess with the upper barrel contact face?

 

[msgriff]

What about the SP10 uppers or IRMT-3 uppers, do mess with the upper barrel contact face?

Not who you asked, and the following doesn't directly address your question, but it might be relevant.

CLE uses Aero M5 Enhanced uppers for their large frame precision builds. They have stated that they do not lap or machine the receiver face, but have checked them for being true.
I'm not sure if this has anything to do with it, but lapping tools weren't always available for the large frame "enhanced" designs and lathe turning would be difficult.

 

[bigjake83]

What about the SP10 uppers or IRMT-3 uppers, do mess with the upper barrel contact face?

That style of upper receivers are a bit more tricky for checking to see if the receiver face is true because it's recessed inside of the upper receiver with the internal barrel nut threads. The two main receiver groups that I use with that extended receiver style are Seekins and JP and at this point none of them have given me any reason to question if the receiver faces are not true straight from the factory.

Regardless of the reputation of the company I still check because no one Is perfect all the time.

 

[padom]

WA blanks are also the blanks used by JP. Not sure about what magic fairy dust they’re busy sprinkling on barrels in St. Cloud, but it’s gotta be that good good because those fuckers shoot lights out!

Sssshhhh.. your blowing out the secrets.... hahaha

Little hint hint.

18'' Wilson Arms 223 Wylde Mid HBar 1x8 Stainless Steel Stripped

Please view details for more information.

www.jsesurplus.com

WILSON ARMS 18" GOV'T PROFILE SPR STYLE 223 WYLDE 1X8 RIFLE GAS SS STR

Please view details for more information.

www.jsesurplus.com

Wilson Arms 16" .223 Wylde 1x8 Stainless Steel Bull Barrel Stripped

Please view details for more information.

www.jsesurplus.com

Wilson Arms 20" .223 Wylde 1x8 Stainless Steel Bull Barrel Stripped

Please view details for more information.

www.jsesurplus.com

 

[padom]

Ive tested almost every one of the above barrels and guess what, they are as accurate as anything Ive tested.. That 16" bull is on sale for $99.99 right now... A lot of people dont understand how many barrels Wilson Arms makes/sells and they are on a lot of big name guns that would suprise you.... Havent tested a single Wilson Arms barrel that didnt shoot... These are the same barrels as WOA sells but Wilson does the machine work in house and sells these as complete barrels...

Its been a few years since I last tested all these Wilson Arms barrels so I have a 16" and 20" on the way Ill post up test results with...

@bigjake83 grab one or a few and test them out. You'll be surprised....

 

[Ernest 5.56]

Sssshhhh.. your blowing out the secrets.... hahaha

Little hint hint.

18'' Wilson Arms 223 Wylde Mid HBar 1x8 Stainless Steel Stripped

Please view details for more information.

www.jsesurplus.com

WILSON ARMS 18" GOV'T PROFILE SPR STYLE 223 WYLDE 1X8 RIFLE GAS SS STR

Please view details for more information.

www.jsesurplus.com

Wilson Arms 16" .223 Wylde 1x8 Stainless Steel Bull Barrel Stripped

Please view details for more information.

www.jsesurplus.com

Wilson Arms 20" .223 Wylde 1x8 Stainless Steel Bull Barrel Stripped

Please view details for more information.

www.jsesurplus.com

People in the bear pit told me about the secret barrel shims he uses sssssshhhhhhhhh

 

[BurtG]

are as accurate as anything Ive tested

What size groups ?

 

[padom]

What size groups ?

I've shot many 0.2-0.3" groups and AGG has been 0.5moa or less.

I got 2 on the way, I'll put them through their paces and post up results. See if they are still performing like they did last time I tested them...

 

[roostercogburn98]

Yes unfortunately the WOA Competition Barrel exstenions are impossible to find with no foreseeable restock, I honestly feel that I have the only one in existence right now.

I had a barrel built with one of the competition extensions a couple years ago. Barrel is a 18 inch Bartlein 1-7:7 that started life as a 20 inch blank in heavy service contour. Had one of the guys at a well known shop change the contour just a smudge, and chamber/thread it in 223 wylde. Build is below

Mega ambi upper/lower
Triggertech two stage
Magpul Gen 3 PRS
Tubbs flatwire spring/ standard a2 buffer
Superlative Arms adj gas block
Strike Industries Gridlock handguard
JP flattop mount
HDMR II 3.5-21 scope

 

[bigjake83]

I had a barrel built with one of the competition extensions a couple years ago. Barrel is a 18 inch Bartlein 1-7:7 that started life as a 20 inch blank in heavy service contour. Had one of the guys at a well known shop change the contour just a smudge, and chamber/thread it in 223 wylde. Build is below

Mega ambi upper/lower
Triggertech two stage
Magpul Gen 3 PRS
Tubbs flatwire spring/ standard a2 buffer
Superlative Arms adj gas block
Strike Industries Gridlock handguard
JP flattop mount
HDMR II 3.5-21 scopeView attachment 8205974

How eas the fit between the upper and barrel exstenion?

 

[roostercogburn98]

How eas the fit between the upper and barrel exstenion?

I froze the barrel and extension for a few days and it still required a light tap or two with the rubber mallet to seat. I applied just a super thin layer of loctite 620 retaining compound as well. Probably could have skipped that part, but I’m sure some made it’s way in there.

 

[BurtG]

While the smart people are here

Thoughts on
Seekins enhanced and aero enhanced uppers ?

 

[padom]

While the smart people are here

Thoughts on
Seekins enhanced and aero enhanced uppers ?

I have a Seekins IRMT-3 Upper/Handguard and Billet lower here. Its nice, its tight, its rigid.. Do I find any measurable difference in performance/accuracy over my 20" MEGA billet precision 20" AR build with SLR handguard, no..... Nothing wrong with it, its very nice.

 

[padom]

I'll be using this MEGA NP3 billet set with RCA adjustable gas key BCG to test these 2 Wilson barrels coming

 

[B Man]

While the smart people are here

Thoughts on
Seekins enhanced and aero enhanced uppers ?

Seekins over Aero if you like the little things and want the most rigidity from your build. Aeros tolerances are not as tight and the upper walls and hand guard are not as robust. Saying that, aero enhanced set will build you a fine accurate rifle.
I’m not sure if seekins is thermo fit I’ve never used their set but handled them maybe someone here can chime in on that. But you will very most likely have to bed the Aero upper extension if that matters to you.

 

[B Man]

Speaking of bedding uppers. Do y’all still add loctite 620 or other variants to uppers that are Thermo fit? I have bedded my uppers that were loose, but on my thermo fit uppers I applied a thin layer of high temp grease to allow easier removal with a little heat. Figured if it’s tight I didn’t need loctite to fill voids and secure it.

 

[padom]

Speaking of bedding uppers. Do y’all still add loctite 620 or other variants to uppers that are Thermo fit? I have bedded my uppers that were loose, but on my thermo fit uppers I applied a thin layer of high temp grease to allow easier removal with a little heat. Figured if it’s tight I didn’t need loctite to fill voids and secure it.

Not on thermofit uppers no I don't add anything

 

[MontanaMan]

N

I'll be using this MEGA NP3 billet set with RCA adjustable gas key BCG to test these 2 Wilson barrels coming

Very nice.
Is that new production or an old one?


MM

 

[roostercogburn98]

While the smart people are here

Thoughts on
Seekins enhanced and aero enhanced uppers ?

I’m not one of the smart ones, but I’d guess either one would get you fairly good results. I’d also assume the Seekins would have better QC and fit???? They(Seekins) were the maker of choice for a build from a shop known for precision and a handful of AR15s.

 

[padom]

N

Very nice.
Is that new production or an old one?


MM

Old one.. before ZEV bought MEGA

 

[Leicafan1990]

No I don't use shim stock and hardly ever use Loctite, all of my builds come with custom barrels from Krieger, Bartlein Douglas..and so on.

Whatever the receiver set of choice is I measure the inner diameter of the upper receiver where the barrel extension slides into and order the barrel extension oversized making the upper receiver a mandatory thermofit.

And yes I always check to make sure the receiver face is concentric to the center of the bore line.

So CLE is making oversized extensions now? I thought those disappeared when BAT Machine stopped making them. I emailed CLE maybe a year or two ago asking about oversized extensions and I never heard back so I figured they were no longer being manufactured.

 

[bigjake83]

So CLE is making oversized extensions now? I thought those disappeared when BAT Machine stopped making them. I emailed CLE maybe a year or two ago asking about oversized extensions and I never heard back so I figured they were no longer being manufactured.

No CLE is not Making Barrel exstenions, I order what I need and send it in.

 

[Leicafan1990]

No CLE is not Making Barrel exstenions, I order what I need and send it in.

Do you mind me asking who makes your custom extensions?

 

[bigjake83]

I’m not one of the smart ones, but I’d guess either one would get you fairly good results. I’d also assume the Seekins would have better QC and fit???? They(Seekins) were the maker of choice for a build from a shop known for precision and a handful of AR15s.

Seekins has specifically made thier SP10 uppers so they are user friendly, Glen even mentions this on one of his videos with Frank, he knows his customers are going to play the Lego Game. Most standard barrel exstenion have a OD of 1.186 and that fits nicely in the SP10, it's snug but not tight so apply a little 620 on the BE and call it a day. Or if you're have a custom barrel spun up make sure to order your exstenion at 1.188 and you can have a thermo fit.

 

[bigjake83]

Do you mind me asking who makes your custom extensions?

At the moment yes I do, if you do a little Google work you'll discover there are a several companies that offer BE with multiple OD sizes.

 

[MK20]

I'll be using this MEGA NP3 billet set with RCA adjustable gas key BCG to test these 2 Wilson barrels coming

I found a 20" chrome moly Wilson barrel at the site you posted above for a very good price. I noticed you only listed their stainless ones. Do their chromoly barrels play nicely too, or just stainless?

 

[FALex]

I found a 20" chrome moly Wilson barrel at the site you posted above for a very good price. I noticed you only listed their stainless ones. Do their chromoly barrels play nicely too, or just stainless?

Any particular reason you’re asking about the chromoly over the stainless? Not asking to be a dick, just curious.

 

[BurtG]

I’m not one of the smart ones, but I’d guess either one would get you fairly good results. I’d also assume the Seekins would have better QC and fit???? They(Seekins) were the maker of choice for a build from a shop known for precision and a handful of AR15s.

Well the handguards fit both I think they are the same upper.

I wonder if the same forge makes both of them

 

[bigjake83]

I'm gonna put out a Blanket statement here.

Most the people on here are just average Joe's who enjoy tinkering and building a firearm that best suits them, after all with a personal build you get what you want from the start. Some times the build doesn't go as planned and a little trouble shooting is required and most folks on her with some experience are always happy to jump in and try to help solve the issue at hand that's the great thing about the Snipers Hide Community here.

It's been brought to my attention a few times now that there is also several Creepers on here who do nothing but use us as thier R&D guinea pigs, basically they're stealing your hard work and profiting off of all the hard work and frustration the members on here have gone through to reach a successful build with thier hard work and money. After gathering the data they want they implemented it into whatever little jerkoff back yard busines they run without earning shit by playing the copycat game.

Me personally, I'm at a point now where I'm happy to do range reports and build reviews but listing all the fine tedious steps in the build process that makes the work I do perform as exceptional as it does, yeah that shit's going to stop.