US soldier Kills 16 Afgan Civilians

[Finris]

Re: US soldier Kills 16 Afgan Civilians

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ah but you all fail to realize one thing. It seems everyone over there is failing as well in this realization:
By Islamic culture and the words of the Koran, everything that happens is the Will of Allah. If those Koran's were supposed to be burned, it was Allah's Will. If those people were supposed to die, that too was the Will of Allah. The ways things happen are not to be looked at, but the end result is nothing but the Will of Allah. Allah is the means, Allah is the way. No thing happens without it being the Will of Allah. Mash Allah! </div></div>winner winner winner chicken dinner!!!!!! Quite frankly this does not effect me!

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: US soldier Kills 16 Afgan Civilians

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mustafa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you join the Army and go to Afghanistan, you are a legitimate target. Just because you aren't infantry doesn't mean you aren't part of the military and can't be engaged. <span style="font-weight: bold">If an ally betrays you and stabs you in the back, it's douchey, but not illegal.</span>
An Afghan soldier that is either a plant from the insurgents or has been won over to the insurgents side, that shoots an ISAF member that is a legal combatant, it is just a fundamentally different thing than if an Afghan soldier in the US for training, walked off base and slaughtered a few families in their sleep.
</div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Wrong! It's very illegal. It just depends on who is swinging the hammer of injustice/justice.</span>

While I personally have a lot of issues about how the Afghan conflict is being conducted, I certainly don't have a C'est la vie, attitude towards those who would kill Americans while attempting to do their duty.

However, I agree, that killing innocent women and children in their homes is not in keeping with our morals of any conflict. As per my first paragraph, I don't give any understanding or mercy to those who feel we are targets while trying to train them up to defend themselves. They bitched like holy water would burn them when the Taliban ruled their world. They step across the line, they die. I have no compunction for their life.

 

[Finris]

Re: US soldier Kills 16 Afgan Civilians

This test only has one question, but it's a very important one.
By giving an honest answer, you will discover where you stand morally.





The test features an unlikely, completely fictional situation in which you will have to make a decision.




Remember that your answer needs to be honest, yet spontaneous.

Please scroll down slowly and give due consideration to each line.




*** THE SITUATION: ***
You are in London .

There is chaos all around you caused by a hurricane with severe

flooding. This is a flood of biblical proportions.




You are a photo-journalist working for a major newspaper, and you're

caught in the middle of this epic disaster.




The situation is nearly hopeless.




You're trying to shoot career-making photos. There are houses and

people swirling around you, some disappearing into the water.


Nature is unleashing all of its destructive fury.




** THE TEST: ***




Suddenly, you see a man in the water.

He is fighting for his life, trying not to be taken down with the debris

You move closer... Somehow, the man looks familiar....




You suddenly realize who it is.... It's the Muslim Cleric, Abu Hamza,

the one-eyed, hook handed bastard who hates non-Muslims and wants

the UK to become an Islamic state!!


You notice that the raging waters are about to take him under forever.




You have two options:



You can save the life of Abu





or you can shoot a dramatic Pulitzer Prize winning photo, documenting the death of one of the country's most despised, evil and powerful men!










*** NOW THE QUESTION: ***




Here's the question, and please give an honest answer...


Would you select high contrast colour film, or would you go with the

classic simplicity of black and white?

 

[-Nick-]

Re: US soldier Kills 16 Afgan Civilians

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Finris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Would you select high contrast colour film, or would you go with the classic simplicity of black and white?
</div></div>

LMAO... High Contrast Colour since the black & white would be a wash with all the darker colors.

 

[KYpatriot]

Re: US soldier Kills 16 Afgan Civilians

From Boker:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I know exactly why guys like KY don't want him turned over. It's not so he gets a fair trial and pays the price, but so he gets to avoid painful execution since in reality guys like KY don't think he's guilty of murder. The people there are less than human to him.</div></div>

Dude you dont know me at all. There is one thing about you though I'm pretty sure of, that you wouldnt have made the babykiller argument face to face. You obviously don't have clue about the great lengths our forces go to avoid non-combatant casualties. You must have bought Obama's "air raiding women and children" line. Is your favorite movie Dances with Wolves or Avatar?

I gave several reasons for doing exactly what we are doing with respect to this guy: the rule of law, respect for Constitutional rights, and the damaging precedent for future warfighting handing him over would create. I realize those things to you are less important than your feelings.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Funny part is for all of KY's and others hypocritical barking this Country last time I checked was only a little over 200 years old and created from foreigners... </div></div>

Boker, who I'm guessing hasnt contributed jack shit to this country, now questions my patriotism as hypocrisy, and by the way America and the Constitution is only 200 years old, so how great can it be right? And finally,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The UCMJ is a joke thanks to the media and politics. Real punishment is rarely dished out as it should be for fear of the bleeding heart American sentiment towards the embattled soldier. </div></div>

Now we get down to what his crying is all about. He's tired of the public support for the military and would just love to take us down a notch. Boker, who hasn't been subject to the UCMJ for even one minute and who hasn't shouldered even a fraction of the awesome responsibility and accountability that the greenest FNG private endures in combat declares that the UCMJ is a joke. I'm sure my sig line makes him want to puke, because it has his name all over it.

I'm done with this ridiculous thread. I guess it is a sign of the times that defending the Constitution and following the law is so controversial for some people.

Besides, it has taken time away from my favorite pastimes of torturing baby kittens and subjugating indigenous peoples.

 

[EventHorizon]

Re: US soldier Kills 16 Afgan Civilians

Broker - you've got KYPatriot all wrong pal. Read his posts again, here and on other threads, this gentleman is about the Constitution, the rule of law for ALL and for doing things right the first time, not some half-assed compromise that commits nothing from the politicians who send men to war and demands everything from those who are in service to this country.

 

[Guy Montag]

Re: US soldier Kills 16 Afgan Civilians

I've no question KYPatriot is good guy, but he dehumanizes ALL Afghans and makes no secret of his contempt.

You can't claim objectivity when it's clear that anger has clouded his judgment.

I understand the way he sees Afghanistan, given what he's seen and experienced, but it still doesn't make it right.

His rant about stepping up and serving was completely batchit, that's NOT a criteria for loving one's country.

 

[EventHorizon]

Re: US soldier Kills 16 Afgan Civilians

KYP's a big boy and can defend himself, so this isn't me defending him, but rather, just making a note of how things seem to roll.

Fact is, a lot more Afghans dehumanize themselves in ways that make posting seem just silly. It's part of the reason why we're there in the first place. To put an end to girls having acid thrown in their faces if they dare to learn to read and other such barbaric shit.

I've never fought anything more terrible than a bunch of whiskey fueled Irishmen and a couple of bad sportsmen from South Africa over a few games of rugby and spilt Guinness, but I'd say when you engage with the enemy you'll see them as one. Same as how the Germans were referred to as one and the Japanese as Japs, as one.

I don't see what it serves to give this soldier to the locals. We've assumed this guy is a bad dude but what if he's just 'broken'. Non compos mentus? How would you feel then?

In KYP's way, there would be an avenue of investigation into the mind of this soldier before judgement was passed and perhaps, this process we call due process, would reveal the WHOLE truth...

We send our own to battle to fight for what this country stands for. Sometimes the reasons we give are not true, sometimes they are, but each time, we better have the backs of our own or else us internet folks will not have the freedom to be posting our opinions so openly.

That's how I see it anyway. Take it easy all.

 

[-Nick-]

Re: US soldier Kills 16 Afgan Civilians

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYpatriot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

You obviously don't have clue about the great lengths our forces go to avoid non-combatant casualties. You must have bought Obama's "air raiding women and children" line.


Boker, who I'm guessing hasnt contributed jack shit to this country, now questions my patriotism as hypocrisy, and by the way America and the Constitution is only 200 years old, so how great can it be right? And finally,

He's tired of the public support for the military and would just love to take us down a notch. Boker, who hasn't been subject to the UCMJ for even one minute and who hasn't shouldered even a fraction of the awesome responsibility and accountability that the greenest FNG private endures in combat declares that the UCMJ is a joke. I'm sure my sig line makes him want to puke, because it has his name all over it.

Besides, it has taken time away from my favorite pastimes of torturing baby kittens and subjugating indigenous peoples.

</div></div>

Lmao... Oh yeah... I don't support the military at all, I've never seen the UCMJ first hand, I want to take the military down a notch, and I think all soldiers are baby killers and rapist... If you believe that then you're a complete fucking idiot.

I never questions KY's or anyone else's Patriotism for that fact. I disagreed with your logic on the Constitution applying to all American's no matter where in the world they are. And as a result you're going to refer to me as if I'm some Westboro Baptist Loving Democrat because I don't agree with your opinion... Are you the pot or the fucking kettle asshole?

 

[McCrazy]

Re: US soldier Kills 16 Afgan Civilians

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> And as a result you're going to refer to me as if I'm some Westboro Baptist Loving Democrat because I don't agree with your opinion... Are you the pot or the <span style="font-weight: bold"> fucking</span> kettle <span style="font-weight: bold">asshole</span>?

</div></div>

How about if you can't keep things civil you keep your thoughts to yourself. This internet toughguy routine slinging insults and cusswords does no benefit to this site, it's members, or the shooting community.

 

[-Nick-]

Re: US soldier Kills 16 Afgan Civilians

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: McCrazy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> And as a result you're going to refer to me as if I'm some Westboro Baptist Loving Democrat because I don't agree with your opinion... Are you the pot or the <span style="font-weight: bold"> fucking</span> kettle <span style="font-weight: bold">asshole</span>?

</div></div>

How about if you can't keep things civil you keep your thoughts to yourself. This internet toughguy routine slinging insults and cusswords does no benefit to this site, it's members, or the shooting community. </div></div>

Funny how your reading doesn't see the "cusswords" other than in my posts. And I'll pass on choosing to keep my thoughts to myself when someone else slings insults at my character and I return fire.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: US soldier Kills 16 Afgan Civilians

Double Standards all around..............

I don't condone what this soldier did, I believe he should be prosicuted and if convicted, be punished.

What I don't get is the double standards. The world condems (and shoud) this act, but for the most part nothing is said when the Taliban blow up a school bus full of kids, or kill woman and kids in hospitals.

Not just the news, nor the world, but on the SH also.

Things haven't changed, Remember Mai Lai, the press and the public threw a fit, but said very little about the thousands of civilians, including womean and kids slaughtered in Hue.

 

[McCrazy]

Re: US soldier Kills 16 Afgan Civilians

Kraig- that is because we expect such behavior from the Taliban. It is why it is so easy for us to dislike them. However we expect better from our own.

Broker- chill out. Apparently you even get offended when someone tells you be mindful of what you write. Wasn't trying to have a double standard or anything, just saw your poor language and not the other persons.

 

[Phil1]

Re: US soldier Kills 16 Afgan Civilians

Accused soldier 'just snapped,' had been drinking, official says

The American staff sergeant suspected of killing 16 Afghan villagers had been drinking alcohol — a violation of military rules in combat zones — and suffering from the stress related to his fourth combat tour and tensions with his wife about the deployments on the night of the massacre, The New York Times reported Thursday, citing a senior American official.

The official also told the Times that the soldier would be flown to the United States as early as Friday, probably to the Fort Leavenworth military prison in Kansas.

The soldier was moved from Afghanistan to Kuwait earlier in the week, but according to the Times, the Kuwaiti government learned of the move from news reports, rather than through diplomatic channels, and demanded that he be taken out of the country

http://www.stripes.com/news/middle-east/...l-says-1.171758

 

[Switchblade]

Re: US soldier Kills 16 Afgan Civilians

So he was drinking...I still beg the question,"HOW THE HELL did he GET OUT through the ECP, ALONE, no battle buddy, no patrol, ALONE? Why was he not stopped? ECP EPIC FAIL

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: US soldier Kills 16 Afgan Civilians

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So he was drinking...I still beg the question,"HOW THE HELL did he GET OUT through the ECP, ALONE, no battle buddy, no patrol, ALONE? Why was he not stopped? ECP EPIC FAIL</div></div>

No question about it, that is a good question. In my world in aviation we find there is always a chain of events that weren't followed that lead to 'disasters'. This disaster begs the question of how fire water got on base; and nobody knew. How this guy was really at the breaking point; and nobody knew. How he got off base; and nobody knew. I agree with Switchblade here. Not one single person saw this about to happen and did one thing to stop it?

As far as punishment goes, I'll still leave it to us rather than the people of Afghanistan. Who, IMO, can't seem to ever get their poop in a group long enough to even have a semi-cohesive government let alone a fair justice system. I hope the investigation finds the truth, the whole truth and takes complete and appropriate action on all counts.

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

Re: US soldier Kills 16 Afgan Civilians

I have read many of the comments on this story and it makes me sick. Some of you would throw this man under a bus. Without a clue of what is going on with this soldier.
First off, he has volunteered to serve our country, and has done so for 10 yrs. Volunteered to take crappy pay to do the bidding of our Gov. no matter where or when.
He has put his ass on the line for his fellow soldiers and a people that mostly could not give a hoot one way or the other.Acording to the news he has done 4 tours in 2 different countries and done so with honor or he would not have recieved the medals and accomodations that he has. He has put his family and what ever else on hold while serving his country in a combat zone. How many of you have done this ? If you had I am sure you would not be so ready to throw him to a bunch of savages.
Secondly, The news is full of crap that is what sells, Dirty laundry any thing to make a headline and sell more. They have yet to really put out all the good this man has done. If you were a fellow soldier of his that saved your ass in combat I am sure you would not be so eager to throw him under the bus.
Lastly[if thats a word], I hope none of you or your children ever have to walk in that man's shoes. He has seen a lot of crap in 4 combat tours and he is not alone. Many of our young men and women have done the same. I don't know, nor do you, what the limit is for the amount of stress a person can take. Everyone of us is different. Some can take more than others. Our Govt. is putting brave men and women in harms way over and over and the people have seemed to forget that this senario was run about 50 years ago in Vietnam. A bogus and propped up foriegn govt will never stand alone. Letting politicians dictate warfare never works.
I hope you remember this man in your prayers. To what ever God you pray to.
I Thank God for men and women who are patiotic enough to put their ass on the line for the freedoms this country provides.
So don't be eager to throw someone under a bus till you have walked in their shoes.

 

[Roy Batty]

Re: US soldier Kills 16 Afgan Civilians

this guy has blown a fuse. this is very common during wartime.
those who knew he was driving batshit crazy for quite a while, and closed their eyes, f.cked up badly.
those who let him out drunk in the night with a loaded weapon f.cked up badly.
himself, that opened fire on women and children, f.cked up badly. women in Afghanistan are the very persons that need help against their fellow male barbarians.

this not just one person failure. as for understanding this because he was a good patriot, a loving father, a good team mate, and surely he was badly pissed...well
I'm afraid I can't when it comes to children. no I can't

rules are supposed to be the difference between the good guys and the talibans.
this is a f.ck up and this has to be treated as it is. war is dirty, nothing new under the sun here. but sickos have to be removed, and not just because you want to be welcome when you travel abroad...

 

[Switchblade]

Re: US soldier Kills 16 Afgan Civilians

I just cannot see how he got out through a ECP at night. NO ECP would ever let a single joe out at night, much less anyone who had liquor on their breath(if they were stupid enough to go there). His Lateral and Upward chain and support channel needs to be totally flushed for not doing anything about his condition as it had to be noticable by his fellow NCO's, his teams, his uppers as well as hi slaterals an one stood in front of him, not one fucking one of them which is a total loss of the NCO Creed and Warrior codes(screw those bullshit papers because a true warrior lives by the unwritten codes we all know and love as Soldiers, Marines,and especially NCO's...or former NCO's).
Th eentire CoC of the ECP needs to be fired, investigated, and figure out why this was allowed to happen on their watch...this STILL gives the hugest WTF???

 

[McCrazy]

Re: US soldier Kills 16 Afgan Civilians

Switchblade, there will be an investigation and surely more details will be released to the public. Repeatedly you have harped on this ECP and how the entire Chain of Command screwed up, and now you are grasping at the alcohol consumption.

Do you know for a fact the layout of the compound where he was staying? Do you know for a fact that there was an ECP? The person in question was attached to support Spec Ops in VSO (Village Stability Operations). Most of this isn't done from a FOB. I can say there have been plenty of times outside the wire that I was the only person awake to pull security. If I decided to go walk to the nearby village and waste people who would you hold accountable?

As for the alcohol I have only heard it reported that he had two drinks. That may be enough for my wife to get tipsy but enough to make a grown man lose control? Not likely unless he is an ultra lightweight.

Sit back and wait for the facts to be presented. I know I am not aware of all the facts either. After seeing the blame roll downhill to protect the brass plenty of times I too hope they get what they deserve instead of pinning it all on the lower ranks. Time will reveal much.

 

[shootist2004]

Re: US soldier Kills 16 Afgan Civilians

you would think after 3 tours and a brain injury they would say..
"go home you've done enough". but they sent him back in. Im not sure but a brain injury might make you crazy...just ask Gary Busey...

 

[windermike]

Re: US soldier Kills 16 Afgan Civilians

Are we sure he did it?

 

[Emouse]

Re: US soldier Kills 16 Afgan Civilians

The Perp handed himself in,...

The Locals are saying he wasn't alone.