Rifle Scopes Useable magnification range of bushnell Xrs, hdmr, and vortex razor

[Baron85]

Bought a trg a couple weeks ago and have been reading up on scopes. These are the 3 I am leaning toward but am concerned with the size and useabity of the reticle. Only ffp scopes I have seen are my swfa 1-6 and. Vortex razor 1-4. Both on the low end are pretty small and almost useless. I have heard that the razor is big enough on low end but the reticle is rather big at max power. Only thing I have found in the bushnell is that it's reticle is smaller than razor because the center section tapers smaller.

I will be shooting out to 800 yards with the hopes for 1000 someday. We shoot steel, clay pigeons, balloons, and paper.

Features I like on the bushnell are locking turrets, larger mag range, 34mm tube so I can use a sphur ( not a deal breaker though), and from the pictures I like the reticle better.
Cons have read that the reticle is not as crisply cut as the razor, and no illumination( once again not a deal breaker but would be nice)

Razor pros lots of good reviews, great warranty, sounds like great glass, illumination.
Cons reticle thickness and the open center cross hair.

I have not been able to handle any of the above scopes none local too me. I hope that you can chime in and correct we're I am wrong add some feedback and opinion to help me get the right scope for me.

 

[wareagle700]

I have the Razor with the EBR-3 reticle (no open center) and do not find it too thick. Its thicker than some others but does not keep me from punching tiny holes. It also is easy to pick up in low light and low magnifications. I would definately reccommend it. Its one tough scope.

 

[Chris@InterstateGuns]

Pick up the razor. I've used the ebr2 reticle and I found the reticle thickness to be on point. Not only for 1k steel but for movers as well. Only reason I'm getting rid of it is in anticipation of the new kahles.

 

[Baron85]

Thanks for the replies so far. I was honestly expecting a flood in favor of the bushnell. Forgot to mention my budget is max $2500 including rings and scope. Would like to be under $2000.

 

[BigJohn141]

I like the G2 in the Bushnell more than the EBR2B that was in my Razor. Finding a XRS and rings for under $2000 will be tricky but could be possible. I have used a Razor for the last 2 years and it is a great scope but I like the XRS just a litte more.

 

[Baron85]

Big John could you please elaborate as to why the preference for the Xrs? Also is there anything you miss about the razor? Maybe a pros and cons list for me? Thanks

 

[BigJohn141]

I like the XRS better because it has a larger magnification range, its smaller, its lighter, and its 10 mil per turn. The EBR2B is a little thicker and works really well at all magnification ranges (was shooting 500+ at 5x) and I really like the open center. The G2 is a little thinner overall and the center section is just a little thinner than the rest of the reticle so it really helps at higher powers or on very small targets. I haven't really used it at lower power yet but it should work just fine. The only thing I really miss from the Razor is the marked parallax, the XRS has different sized dots where the Razor actually had numbers. Not that big of a deal but the numbers are pretty fool proof when in a hurry. Some people complain about the lack of illumination on the XRS but honestly I had the Razor for 2 years and turned it one once to make sure it worked. To MY eyes the XRS appears to be a little brighter and a little sharper than the Razor when compared at the same magnification but the eye box is a lot better on the XRS to me. I wouldnt say there is a ton of difference between the two and the XRS just edges out the Razor in my book. With that said, the Razor has two big pluses over the XRS at this time, it can be found for as low as $1600 used if you look hard enough and Vortex has amazing customer service and warranty.

On a side note, I get the point of the locking turrets on the XRS but I feel the clicks are positive enough that they really arent needed. If Bushnell came out with a non locking drop in option, I would probably get it.

 

[Baron85]

Thank you big john. Another question for you, do you use the 30x or is it overkill? I feel the more the better but have not owned anything over 14x so trying to decide if ERS is enough with the 3.5-21x or to go up to the xrs

 

[springer01]

Thank you big john. Another question for you, do you use the 30x or is it overkill? I feel the more the better but have not owned anything over 14x so trying to decide if ERS is enough with the 3.5-21x or to go up to the xrs

You loose 1x on the low end to gain 9x on the high end, IMO the XRS is the way to go!

 

[BigJohn141]

The 30x is actually pretty nice. Do you NEED 30x? No. I can easily see hits on steel out to 500 and probably further if the mirage isn't bad. I know some competitions require you to shoot certain shapes, letters, or numbers so the 30x would very useful in that situation. Like springer said, you only lose 1x on the bottom but gain a ton on the top. Its easier to turn a 30x scope back to 20x if needed but you aren't going past 21x with the ERS so just take that into consideration. If you have the budget for the XRS then I would go with it.

 

[Landon]

I have the hdmr and the razor. I really like both scopes. I think it really comes down to the features you want. I use the hdmr and the razor on 308 rifles. If you need a few revs out of the turrets I really like the zero stop on the razor. If you are sticking under 10 mils I don't mind the Bushnell. There is also the difference in the illuminated reticle.

I use the razor on my 24 inch rifle I shoot to 1k and the Bushnell on my18" that I keep under 600 yards. For the price I expected a lot of quality from the razor and it delivered. For the price the Bushnell really surprised me with its quality, FOV, and capability. It also has a nice compact appearance.

I really don't see a downside to either scopes reticles. There is no way you are going to miss a shot you would have made with the other scope. I Have shot on 10" steel at 1k with both scopes and never once thought the reticle got in the way. I go back and forth with these scopes on a regular basis as to which one i like more. I think both are really capable optics.

Of the two I don't think you can go wrong. I find it amazing that we now have 30 power scopes in the tactical world with such low ends. I remember when 16 and 18 power were the top of the range for most. If you are doing more than target shooting I always caution about over magnification. I did not read the specs but many times you give up FOV on the lower end with higher power scopes. That is at least something to check out if it matters for your purpose.

 

[Baron85]

Thanks landon. I have narrowed it down to the newer bushnells with the 10 mil turrets and zero stops. In that case all I am missing is illumination. Leaning heavily toward the 4.5-30 xtr which gives me basically the same bottom end as razor but 10x more on top. My question to you now is I can get either razor or xtr for basically the same price what do you feel is the better deal. How are the turrets, glass quality, eye box tight or forgiving, clarity and resolution, reticle crispness, overall feel and layout, which feels tougher and most robust? I would appreciate if you could maybe do a quick pros and cons since you have both? Keeping in mind I'm looking at the 10mil zero stop with higher magnification but as I understand it should be close to what you have

 

[Jon Lester]

I find my HDMR stays on 30x nearly 100% of the time. It is currently on a GAP 10 6 creed but will be moved to the 300Win before ASC.

 

[Captain Kirk]

Thank you big john. Another question for you, do you use the 30x or is it overkill? I feel the more the better but have not owned anything over 14x so trying to decide if ERS is enough with the 3.5-21x or to go up to the xrs

I ran a 3.5-21, its a great scope when you consider how compact and inexpensive it is. It got very dark above 18X and the eyebox shrank fast in the 18-21 range. I rarely, and I mean rarely run any of my optics above 15x while shooting, ranging or identifying targets is the only time I feel the extra magnification is helpful. I see more people shoot on high magnification and loose a target through recoil or fail to spot impacts due to setting the scope on higher X, power down.

Kirk R

 

[Baron85]

Jon you say you have a hdmr on 30x? Do you have the xtr that's 30x or the hdmr that's 21x?

 

[Baron85]

Captain Kirk I noticed you said used. May I ask why you stopped using it? What did you replace it with?

 

[Baron85]

Thank you everyone for the replies this has been very helpful for me so far. There is such a wealth of knowledgeable people on here.

 

[Jon Lester]

Jon you say you have a hdmr on 30x? Do you have the xtr that's 30x or the hdmr that's 21x?

Yeah it is the new improved HDMR, the XTR that i have. I still find myself referring to all them as HDMRs.

 

[diderr]

21x should fit the bill nicely. plus you have the low end too.

 

[Captain Kirk]

Captain Kirk I noticed you said used. May I ask why you stopped using it? What did you replace it with?

It was on loan, I switched from the Premier Heritage scopes to the S&Bs, used the DMR during the transition. Even when thrown in the mix with the PH and S&B, the Bushnell DMR held its own, I didnt care for the 5 mil turrets but there is a 10 mil version now, but when you consider the jump in price it starts to loose a little of its appeal. I also like the DMR reticle better than anything else on the market, it is sweet.

 

[RobG]

My Razor is good all the way to 20x. The reticle is not too thick and I actually like the open center of the 2B. I wasn't sure I would but after using it, its great for smaller targets at distance, being able to bracket a small dot as opposed to covering it. I like the G2 reticle that Bushnell uses. Its not too thick nor too busy. The very limited hands on I have with the newer 30x model was not favorable past about 22-23x. The eyebox becomes ridiculously tight and it darkens pretty bad around the edges. The shooter that actually used it concurred on both observations.

 

[Landon]

Thanks landon. I have narrowed it down to the newer bushnells with the 10 mil turrets and zero stops. In that case all I am missing is illumination. Leaning heavily toward the 4.5-30 xtr which gives me basically the same bottom end as razor but 10x more on top. My question to you now is I can get either razor or xtr for basically the same price what do you feel is the better deal. How are the turrets, glass quality, eye box tight or forgiving, clarity and resolution, reticle crispness, overall feel and layout, which feels tougher and most robust? I would appreciate if you could maybe do a quick pros and cons since you have both? Keeping in mind I'm looking at the 10mil zero stop with higher magnification but as I understand it should be close to what you have

.

Since you are looking at those two and they are virtually the same price it is a hard call. The thing that made the bushnell so desirable to me was the price at $1200. It was a no brainier for a second scope. Just an FYI when you move to the 10 mil per rev turret they do not "feel" quite as crisp or spaced out as much as a 5 mil turret but the trade off is 10 freekin mils per rev, which is huge for speed and convenience. I have only handled the vortex 10 mil turrets. They design as advertised and are a great feature but some people do not have the right expectation and complain about the feel.

They are both heavy scopes, I'm sure over 30oz (did not check on this), but the bushnell has a smaller profile in terms of overall length and a lower turret height. The turrets have a much wider diameter on the bushnell. Both scopes have turrets that are easy to use. The parallax is a little smoother on the vortex but the bushnell has locking turrets. Both scopes feel robust and solid and will take a beating.

The reticle is a little simpler on the bushnell vs the 2b on the vortex but both are easily usable. The vortex reticle is illuminated. Glass and clarity are clear on both and you will not be disappointed. I don't really have a winner here. It's like looking at two top hd TVs in a store and picking which one looks better. In the store you can tell a little bit of difference and become a real critic but on the wall at home it would have never made a difference.

As far as magnification they both get a tinny little bit darker when the light is not perfect at full power and at low power there is a tiny bit of tunneling from probably 4x to 3.5x on the bushnell. I think the eye box is a little tighter on the vortex at higher power but the vortex is on an aics and the bushnell on an hs with a stock pack so comfort may make a difference there.

If I were to scope another rifle for field and range use I would probably buy a used bushnell and put the money into more gear or ammo. If I were going to shoot in competitions I would be looking at a 10 mil turret with zero stop. This review is probably not that helpful since I did not make a pro vs con list. I think without being a compulsive gear queer both scopes are awesome and will get the job done very well. So the good news is either way you go you are really a winner.

The one difference between the vortex and old bushnell was the amount of extras the vortex came with. A bubble level, scope covers (crappy but usable), and ARD where the bushnell had nothing. Also, the vortex is a35mm tube so I don't know what ring selection looks like today. Two years ago it was limited if I remember right.

You should really sit down and compare feature by feature and see what meets your needs. Both are great, exciting scopes that are getting a lot of use and delivering some great performance. I would caution you about the sex appeal of a X-30 power scope. That is a lot if range there and you may give up a lot of FOV. That scope to me, if its good, is really a beyond 1k scope. There is no way my hit ratio would increase enough under 1k to justify any potential downside. I say this with never seeing the 30 x scope but based on my past experience with "over magnifying" rifles.

 

[Baron85]

Very nice post thank you for that. The specs on fov between the 3.5 and 4.5 bushnell I thing was 2' difference at 100yards so no enough to matter I don't think. I like the idea of the 30x since it sound like all choices get touchy on the higher end of mag range. My theory is that I can run the 30x set in the upper teens o low 20s but not have the darkening or the tightening of the eye box that I would if I ran the 3.5-21x or razor at the same mag powers. Any thoughts on my theory?

 

[Landon]

Very nice post thank you for that. The specs on fov between the 3.5 and 4.5 bushnell I thing was 2' difference at 100yards so no enough to matter I don't think. I like the idea of the 30x since it sound like all choices get touchy on the higher end of mag range. My theory is that I can run the 30x set in the upper teens o low 20s but not have the darkening or the tightening of the eye box that I would if I ran the 3.5-21x or razor at the same mag powers. Any thoughts on my theory?

Without actually handling the scope I would not really have an idea if this would work. Every scope model is different. I have heard this logic before from friends but they usually end up using it on high power any time they can anyway. I would call Scott at liberty optics and see what he thinks. He is always helpful. He will pull one out of the box if he has one and answer all your hands on type questions.

What are you using the scope for that you need so much magnification?

 

[scudzuki]

Exactly, with the tunneling of the ERS below 4x and no tunneling in the XRS, the FOV of the 2 scopes at the bottom end are very similar.

I have a DMR and an XRS and am very happy with both.

Joe

 

[Baron85]

I am just getting into the long range shooting have shot out too 650yds with a 12x scope and was successful but left me wanting more magnification. I hope to get out to 1000yds. We are working on clearing some more property for our range. We like to shoot steel, balloons, clay pigeons, and also enjoy shooting for groups. My thoughts are I can turn down the 30x to 20x but not the other way around. I wil most likely use 10x-20x the most. I have other guns for close range stuff and will likely never shoot this gun under 100yds. I would also like to try a tactical rifle match some day when I have improved my skills some.

 

[1911fan]

No experience with the Bushnells, except for lower end stuff, but I'm very happy with my Razor EBR-1 FFP. I run it at 20X for 600 yard and up FTR, and I've had no problems with blackout.


1911fan

 

[Baron85]

Skudzuki could you comment on how the 2 scopes compare when both set at say 10x, 15x, and 20x?

 

[Landon]

I am just getting into the long range shooting have shot out too 650yds with a 12x scope and was successful but left me wanting more magnification. I hope to get out to 1000yds. We are working on clearing some more property for our range. We like to shoot steel, balloons, clay pigeons, and also enjoy shooting for groups. My thoughts are I can turn down the 30x to 20x but not the other way around. I wil most likely use 10x-20x the most. I have other guns for close range stuff and will likely never shoot this gun under 100yds. I would also like to try a tactical rifle match some day when I have improved my skills some.

So my experience, which I am no oracle, tells me that you would be very well served with the lower magnification. Over magnification is common to new shooters. At least that's what I tell myself since I did the same thing. . I did not have scopes with these amazing power ranges to choose from when I first started shooting.

In reality if your heart is set on the 30x I say rock it and don't think twice about it. All these scopes are good and you are going to shoot and gain experience which is the important part. You will then have a better frame of reference for your next scope and your wants and needs may change or may not. I also do not know a single long range shooter with only 1 rifle. So just plan in the future to adopt another rifle and another scope. There is always a way to justify it with the spouce.

Precision rifles for me has been a great learning experience and a lot of fun with friends but has resulted in a lot of bad gear and scope purchases. The only way to really decide for yourself if this scope is the "best" is to actually get out on the range and use the thing and see how it works out. The Internet can be full of good information, a lot of hype, and some really bad suggestions. Also, some professional training is a great investment.

Order the scope you like and don't look back. If there is one in stock today you can have it for the weekend. Just sayin...

 

[timelinex]

Your over thinking it. I don't have either scopes, but many guys have answered your questions and your really just looking for someone to give you a clear winner, when there probably isn't one. Just choose one and get on with it, I'm sure it will be great. Especially that your not doing anything too crazy with it. I shoot a mile+ regularly with my SWFA HD and my friend has a S&B. at 2000+ yards there is no functional difference. At 2000 yards, I see the target clearly at 20x. The only time we see a difference is when we are trying to spot a shot on the target, and his S&B just barely has an advantage in the resolution department and its a bit easier to pick up on the fainter paint splashes. There's that little realistic difference and we are talking about 2000 yards here and comparing a $1500 scopes to a $2500 scope. Imagine comparing two scopes basically in the the same price range. The metaphor Landon gave about comparing TV's at the store was a great one.


So pick a feature that you think you will like and whichever one has it , get that one. It sounds like your set on having a 30x so there's your answer.

 

[Jordan Smith]

One thing to consider is that if you think you might ever stretch the range out, the Razor's specs show a lot bigger adjustment range.

 

[BigJohn141]

It has about 5 mils over the XRS. The Razor is listed at 36 and the XRS has about 31 actual.

 

[Baron85]

Thanks everyone for the info I have gotten lots of good info and advice. I'm looking through the classifieds for the right deal. Since it sounds like any of these is going to work great I will just buy the one that comes up the best deal. As far as the extra adjustment as long as I can get to 1000 yards I will be happy. That's the longest range in my area and as far as we will be able to clear at our ranch.

 

[Jordan Smith]

It has about 5 mils over the XRS. The Razor is listed at 36 and the XRS has about 31 actual.

That's interesting. I was looking at the specs for the ERS on Bushnell's website, and it listed about 13 mils total elevation range.

 

[quiksilv81]

Same specs for the dmr and the ers. 120+ moa that converts to 35 mils of adjustment.

Finish: Matte, Flat Dark Earth

Power / Obj Lens: 3.5-21x 50mm

Reticle: G2

Field of View (ft@100 yds. / m@100 m): 26/[email protected] / 5/1.5@21x

Weight (oz. / g): 35 / 992

Length (in. / mm): 13 / 332

Eye Relief (in. / mm): 3.7 / 95 Exit Pupil (mm): [email protected] / 2.4@21x

Click Value in.@100 yds / mm@100m: 0.34 / 10

Adj Range in.@100yds / m@100m: 120+ moa

Mounting Length (in. / mm): 6 / 154

 

[Jordan Smith]

Huh. Where'd you find that? Here's the link I'm looking at on Bushnell's website:

Bushnell - ERS 3.5-21x 50mm

Specs for
ERS 3.5-21x 50mm
ET35215GZ, ET35215GZA

Finish:Matte, Flat Dark Earth

Power / Obj Lens:3.5-21x 50mm
Reticle:G2
Field of View (ft@100 yds. / m@100 m):26/[email protected] / 5/1.5@21x
Weight (oz. / g):35 / 992
Length (in. / mm):13 / 332
Eye Relief (in. / mm):3.7 / 95
Exit Pupil (mm):[email protected] / 2.4@21x
Click Value in.@100 yds / mm@100m:0.34 / 10
Adj Range in.@100yds / m@100m:50 / 1.3
Mounting Length (in. / mm):6 / 154

 

[scudzuki]

I have owned 2 different DMRs and bought a 3rd one for a friend and every one had 34 mils of elevation and windage travel.
My XRS has a hair over 31 mils elevation and 18 mils windage.

Joe

 

[BigJohn141]

I guess that is one check in the Vortex box, their website has correct information on it lol.

 

[Jordan Smith]

Thanks fellas. I thought something might be amiss when I saw a total of 13 mils elevation travel

 

[quiksilv81]

Yup that's a typo on bushnell's part. I got my information from liberty optics page.

 

[Baron85]

Just wanted to update. I ended up buying a bushnell ers out of the classifieds here. I couldn't be happier. I was able to put my hands on a nightforce f1, vortex razor, leupold mark6 3-18, and a s&b. I feel for me I got the best scope that I looked at. I love the g2 reticle and the turrets. Yes the s&b glass was noticeably better but it wont make enough difference for me at this stage in the game. I was not able to compare any of them side by side but feel the turrets are better on the bushnell than the vortex or leupold and equal to the nightforce. I cant compare on glass quality other than the bushnell exceded my expectations. A lot of the reading I did on the dmr series said tight eye box and poor glass in the bushnell. On my particular scope I cant say that holds true.