Rifle Scopes Using a .223 BDC reticle on a .308?

[BryantM4]

looking at a Trijicon 1-4 accupower for my Scar 17. It’ll be 13.5” sbr. Im looking at using the .223 BDC reticle, due to the ease of use in CQC. But after say, 200 yards, how can I use the reticle to my advantage? Insert basic 55gr. .223 and my .308 cartridge into a calculator, and adjust for the drop? Im fairly new to scopes, so any info would be great. I dont plan on using the scope further than 300 yards, realisticly.

 

[bluegrasspicker]

Sounds like you're on the right track. Here's what I'd do:

1. Find the schematics for your reticle. In particular you want to know the "distance" between the dots in either mils or moa.
2. Use a ballistic calculator with your 308 data to get the dope in terms of mils or moa (whichever your reticle schematic's in). If you're new to ballistic calculators my standard is jbm ballistics. Do your best at plugging in the data, but I wouldn't stress too much for the range you mention. But some of it's easy, like a rough measurement of your scope above the bore, your typical altitude and a typical density, etc.
3. Once you fire up the ballistics calculator, change the "range increment" to something small, like 20 yards.
4. Compare the ballistics calc output to your scope schematic.
5. Make a note of where the dots on your scope line up with the dope for your 308. Write it down and make a few copies!
6. Head to range. Have a lot of fun confirming your dots at whatever distances you can. Be ready to fine tune your dope card. Real data trumps the calculator prediction, but keep in mind that as you get out farther there will be fluctuations due to atmospheric conditions. Just keep good notes.
7. Once you have a good chart confirmed for your rifle, go shoot in the nastiest wind you can find!

 

[RTH1800]

BDC reticules are only valid for one set of conditions, circumstances and cartridge. The best that can be said of them is that that they are better than nothing. The worst is that they give confidence to ignorant and untrained shooters to take longer shots than they should at game. A version of "I want a pill to fix everything" or worse yet, "1000 yards out of a box" mentality.

That being said, they are not useless. Just use the dots or dashes to do your own data set for your rifle/ammo combination in some condition of weather and realize that even this will change.

 

[VegasHKShooter]

^^^^^ MUCH yes right there.^^^^

 

[FLIGHT762]

Also remember, most of the BDC scopes are SFP. Those drop distances are only accurate at the full magnification of the scope. If you dial down, those drop distances change and you will miss.

I use a Leupold Boone & Crockett reticle on my 270. I tailored a specific load to follow that B&C trajectory curve. It does work, just remember it is load specific.

 

[502Chevelle]

^^^ This. As I was reading posts above, I was thinking about sfp. You can go to the range, and turn the scope to full power. Zero at 100 yds. Run a tall tracking test using only your hashmarks on the 100 yard dot, which should give you groups climbing vertically up your target. Go back and enter your data into jbm or 4dof. Match up your groups to 100yd holdovers and you’ve got a good idea. This is the same as what bluegrasspicker is saying, just in a different way, and of course you have to confirm at distance. Always remember, when you stretch that rifle out, you must have your scope turned up.

 

[SCOPEBROKER]

looking at a Trijicon 1-4 accupower for my Scar 17. It’ll be 13.5” sbr. Im looking at using the .223 BDC reticle, due to the ease of use in CQC. But after say, 200 yards, how can I use the reticle to my advantage? Insert basic 55gr. .223 and my .308 cartridge into a calculator, and adjust for the drop? Im fairly new to scopes, so any info would be great. I dont plan on using the scope further than 300 yards, realisticly.

I am going to talk out of both sides of my mouth on this one.

If you use BDC correctly, for 5.56 NATO and 7.62x51 NATO, the ballistics tend to be very similar up to 600 yards +/-. This sounds like heresy, especially since there are different bullet weights and everything, but for hitting living targets (military, LE, hunting), this works. It might not be +/1 1MOA, but it is close enough, and generally BDC is used for close enough to hit a big target. For precision shooting, no way. But you are using a SCAR battle rifle.

Which brings me to another topic. I would look at other scopes for the Scar 17. It might just be me, but I think you want something a little more robust, in terms of being banged around, taking the recoil, etc. In the same price range, perhaps the Razor 1-6x. Maybe an Elcan. I like the 1.5x/6x on the Scar 17, but even a straight 4x is good. Maybe a NF 1-8x...

Have fun

 

[Birddog6424]

I couldn't disagree more with a few of these posts. A BDC does NOT work just for one cartridge, circumstances, etc. It works for any cartridge, caliber, etc.

I can use the same optic with the same BDC on any rifle I own, .22 rimfire through 338 Lapua Mag. And I can adjust my dope in minutes.

This is the picture of my reticle on the 1-8 Burris XTR II that I use for 3 Gun. The center dot is zero, which on that rifle is 200 yards. The top of the post is .32 mils, the first line is .96, the second line is 1.77, the third line is 2.76, the bottom of the post is 3.96 mils.



This is my .223 using 75gr BTHP ammunition. Matching the dope to the mils I know that the top of the post at .32 mils equals 250 yards (200 yard zero), the first line equals 305 yards, the second line equals 375, then 450, then the bottomed post equals 520. Each line correlates with mils or moa which equals a yardage. It doesn't matter what that BDC was made for, it works for everything.



Here is my 6.5 Creedmoor and 300 Norma mag respectively. They have 100 yard zeros, but using the mils that match the lines and post of the scope, I can punch in that days environmentals from my Kestrel and have a yardage that equals each line.

Easy Peasy.

 

[RTH1800]

Birddog,

You can drive your car to work in reverse as well.
There are easier ways to get there.

The vast majority of folks who get stuck with a “BDC” scope don’t want to be bothered with math, data or facts. They want to dial 485 yards and point and shoot. Thus my statement that it only works that way under a specific set of circumstances.

You are stating the obvious that it is possible to to utilize a BDC reticule in a role it was not purpose built for.

 

[SCOPEBROKER]

here is what I was saying: the trajectory of a 5.56mm NATO bullet and a 7.62 NATO (blue and green) over the course of 600 yards are pretty similar, and in fact for even longer than 600 yrds.

 

[Birddog6424]

Birddog,

You can drive your car to work in reverse as well.
There are easier ways to get there.

The vast majority of folks who get stuck with a “BDC” scope don’t want to be bothered with math, data or facts. They want to dial 485 yards and point and shoot. Thus my statement that it only works that way under a specific set of circumstances.


You are stating the obvious that it is possible to to utilize a BDC reticule in a role it was not purpose built for.

I disagree with you again. The average BDC user does not simply want to dial and shoot. If you were simply going to dial, then it doesn't matter what reticle you have, whether it be a BDC or H59. In addition, our OP clearly states he asks how he can best utilize his reticle.

And as I illustrated, it is not cartridge or circumstance specific, neither matter at all. And I'm not stating the obvious apparently if you believe otherwise.

But at the risk of now stating the obvious, anyone who would disregard the math, data, and facts wouldnt be on this forum asking questions. So I'll give the OP the benefit of the doubt that he s honestly trying to figure out a BDC.

 

[RTH1800]

The sole purpose of a BDC reticule is oversimplification for the overly simple.

It is the equivalent of using a dipper to scoop powder instead of weighing the charges. (Same company probably makes both items) stupidshootersupply.com

The fact that you utilize it otherwise is meaningless.

 

[Birddog6424]

The sole purpose of a BDC reticule is oversimplification for the overly simple.

It is the equivalent of using a dipper to scoop powder instead of weighing the charges. (Same company probably makes both items) stupidshootersupply.com

The fact that you utilize it otherwise is meaningless.

You clearly seem to believe that anyone using a BDC reticle is incapable of making ethical shots, and is too stupid to use math, facts, and data to utilize a scope to it's full potential. In a nutshell, BDC users are too dumb to grasp the concepts of a more complicated reticle.

You show a glaring ignorance on the subject, not to mention a heaping helping of snobbery. With all due respect, I think it's pretty clear at this point that you aren't a very reliable contributor to this subject

 

[RTH1800]

We simply disagree.

I don’t think people who use BDC’s are incapable of making ethical shots. Rifle shooting at reasonable ranges is quite simple. I do know there are far better tools for the job. I also know that many folks purchase a BDC scope that is marked to x range and think you sight it at 100 yards and shoot to X yards buy using the reticule with no further knowledge, practice or input from the shooter. That is the market the BDC targets. No consideration of caliber or bullet used etc. Point and shoot, just like it shows on the box.

I maintain that you show ignorance on the subject. Most likely due to defending your purchase of a scope with a BDC and going in circles to make it work. (See above about driving your car to work backwards)

What you have achieved could have been done much more logically and easily by using a standardized system like Mil or MOA based reticule with corresponding adjustments. Get good BC and velocity data. Make or print a drop chart and done.

Or, you could do the work you have done then post stupid shit on the internet.

I do help a large number of folks set up and shoot rifles to longer ranges. The BDC guys are always the least knowledgeable of the lot. Not stupid but shooting is simply not something they invest a lot of time or thought into. They have an unbounded faith that when you put dot 6 on the target you hit the target at 600 yards.

BTW, how is that Countersniper holding up? ?

 

[502Chevelle]

That’s similar to what I was saying except you used a 200 yard zero.

 

[sobrbiker883]

My 16” 308 shooting 165BTSP’s at 2625 matches my US Optics 1-8’s RWF-77 reticle which was designed for 77gr SMK’s by a 3-gunner our to 600.
I’ve got a Nikon BDC on my Savage 6.5CM that matches old 140 Amax’s at 2750 as well.

Tell an old 8541 that BDC’s don’t work in different conditions-that’s what the +\- lever is on the old MST-100’s is for.

 

[RTH1800]

The lever, using one bullet at one velocity or nearly so, shooting large vertical targets, using a fixed 10x scope and excellent data and training made them work.

That is not what the average buyer of a BDC reticule today is working with. He gets a .223 rifle and a .308 BDC in a variable second focal plane scope.

If it works for you good. If you enjoy using .32, .96, .84 instead of 1 drive on. I don’t care what you use. I don’t care if your adjustments speak to your reticule. Note the above poster stated he could correct his data in minutes. If you like doing things the hard way and have minutes to spare prior to shooting you should have a BDC reticule.

 

[sobrbiker883]

RTH-
Different tools, different jobs.
I’ve put more than a couple barrel’s worth of rounds on steel across the country under match conditions through my beloved USO mil-MPR, and I’ve put a couple animals or two down utilizing BDC reticles.
I just disagree with your disdain for them, and your reasoning for such.
Suntensions are subtensions, and knowing your rifle can’t be replaced with any gear.

Pretty sure the OP was looking for help to work with what he has, and other posters tried to help him with it, rather than look down their noses at him.

We all had to start somewhere, and I for one see value in learning the how to use what you’ve got.

Welcome to the hide Bryant.

Carry on...

 

[Birddog6424]

We simply disagree.

I don’t think people who use BDC’s are incapable of making ethical shots. Rifle shooting at reasonable ranges is quite simple. I do know there are far better tools for the job. I also know that many folks purchase a BDC scope that is marked to x range and think you sight it at 100 yards and shoot to X yards buy using the reticule with no further knowledge, practice or input from the shooter. That is the market the BDC targets. No consideration of caliber or bullet used etc. Point and shoot, just like it shows on the box.

I maintain that you show ignorance on the subject. Most likely due to defending your purchase of a scope with a BDC and going in circles to make it work. (See above about driving your car to work backwards)

What you have achieved could have been done much more logically and easily by using a standardized system like Mil or MOA based reticule with corresponding adjustments. Get good BC and velocity data. Make or print a drop chart and done.

Or, you could do the work you have done then post stupid shit on the internet.

I do help a large number of folks set up and shoot rifles to longer ranges. The BDC guys are always the least knowledgeable of the lot. Not stupid but shooting is simply not something they invest a lot of time or thought into. They have an unbounded faith that when you put dot 6 on the target you hit the target at 600 yards.

BTW, how is that Countersniper holding up? ?

You have failed to say anything to convince me that you know how easy it is to use a BDC reticle. You fail to grasp that you can use it for anything with no effort whatsoever. I didnt have to "work" at it for my data, I already had all my data and just applied it to the reticle.

It's so funny to read your comments. You do realize Mil and moa based reticles are BDC reticles? They work exactly the same way? And what you are calling a BDC reticle, is in fact a mil or moa based reticle? Other reticles simply have more detail, but they all work exactly the same, they are all in place for bullet drop compensation using the exact same method. They all have a correlation to yardage for any given cartridge or condition. That whole math, data, and facts thing again.

All your talk of drop charts and BC, it's all the same thing done the same way, and you had no idea. Did you not realize that's what I posted on my first post? A reticle picture showing the subtensions in mils or moa, along with drop charts for 3 different rifles. You say above that a BDC needs minutes to set up. Incorrect, it's set up so you dont have to constantly check dope. You say it's harder, when in fact it's a training wheels system. It's far simpler.

You really aren't getting this, but you are so set in your head that you understand it. You think instead, that I'm the one who doesn't understand it, when in reality I'm talking over your head.

 

[RTH1800]

I know exactly what you are saying. Look at the end of my first post.

THIS

VVVVVVVV

That being said, they are not useless. Just use the dots or dashes to do your own data set for your rifle/ammo combination in some condition of weather and realize that even this will change.[/QUOTE]

WWWWWW

My point is that most buyers of BDC scopes are not as knowledgeable as you are. I see bubbas who buy a scope with no regard for what cartridge it is set up for. Slap it on a rifle, shoot it off a bench and bags with no regard for how the rest they are using effects POI. Use 50 rounds of ammo of various weights. Shooting at 25 or 50 yards and getting 8-15" groups. Then they go hunting and hold one of the LR dots on a deer and start shooting. Why not, the picture on the box shows that it will work? That is the market the BDC is targeted to.

I also notice that most are not really precision shooters. Even the most advanced shooters of the BDC system shoot to longer range by simply shooting at large targets. Often 2-4 MOA. The BDC will work

The same folks use a dirty bore snake to re arrange the crap in their barrel and think it is clean, don't know the difference between ammo with 125 grain bullets and 190 grain bullets.

So, with all this being said, my complaint is not so much the BDC, which can be made to work. It is that many who use don't have the knowledge to back it up in the field.

The more interesting question is why you are so invested in the BDC system and defend it with malace?

 

[Dolomite_Supafly]

I have never been a fan of BDC reticles. Like others have said they only work well under certain circumstances. Then I bought a PA scope with the ACSS reticle. For what it is it works very well and it is obvious it was well thought out as well as tested extensively. The ACSS works great for getting on target fast and it does exactly that. I zeroed mine then was able to get 1st round hits on steel from 100 to 600 yards with little effort. It isn't made for precision work and is more of a combat optic where it excels.

 

[Birddog6424]

I'm not being malicious. I'm not the one saying BDC users make unethical shots or need to shop at stupidshooter.com. I dont lump anyone into a "BDC user" category, and assume they are incapable of using anything else.

What you see as ignorant or ill-informed BDC users, i simply see as guys who havent received training or better education at using more precise and subsequently more complicated systems. The basic BDC is as I mentioned, a reticle on training wheels.

I defend it because it has its place. Some people dont want to invest the time in to something more complicated. For the guy who just hunts, it's a great choice. Far better than the basic duplex I hunted with for 20 years. A basic BDC provides the means to make accurate shots at greater distances than the old "hold on the top of his back" method. And for 3 Gun competitions, which by the way, that's what I use it for, it cant be beat. Its fast and easy. All I have to remember is the yardage each line correlates with and hold accordingly. No dope to check or turrets to dial. Fast and easy. I can transition quickly and smoothly through a 3 Gun course of fire with multiple targets at multiple ranges without ever breaking cheek weld.

My PRS competition rifles have the H59 and I have the SCR in my hunting rifles.

I'm not making any claims that it's the end all reticle. It's not, its basic. But basic has a place, and understanding how easy they are to use with any rifle and dispelling the whole ".223/.308" reticle myth perpetrated on us is the key to getting the most out of the reticle. And even educating those guys using it and making them better shooters.

But it's still the exact same system using the exact same methods as every other reticle. It's just a hold reticle with less subtensions to make it easy to use. Once you know the hold for any given rifle, it's super simple.

 

[SCOPEBROKER]

I think BDC reticles have great usefulness, especially in short to medium range shots. They are great for tactical environments where point and shoot are needed. 0-300m are well suited for BDC, and probably a little further. Beyond 500 or 600m, the effectiveness is less appropriate. We love the BDC in magnification up to 6x or 8x.

 

[Birddog6424]

I think BDC reticles have great usefulness, especially in short to medium range shots. They are great for tactical environments where point and shoot are needed. 0-300m are well suited for BDC, and probably a little further. Beyond 500 or 600m, the effectiveness is less appropriate. We love the BDC in magnification up to 6x or 8x.

I think that's spot on..

 

[sobrbiker883]

I'm not being malicious. I'm not the one saying BDC users make unethical shots or need to shop at stupidshooter.com. I dont lump anyone into a "BDC user" category, and assume they are incapable of using anything else.

What you see as ignorant or ill-informed BDC users, i simply see as guys who havent received training or better education at using more precise and subsequently more complicated systems. The basic BDC is as I mentioned, a reticle on training wheels.

I defend it because it has its place. Some people dont want to invest the time in to something more complicated. For the guy who just hunts, it's a great choice. Far better than the basic duplex I hunted with for 20 years. A basic BDC provides the means to make accurate shots at greater distances than the old "hold on the top of his back" method. And for 3 Gun competitions, which by the way, that's what I use it for, it cant be beat. Its fast and easy. All I have to remember is the yardage each line correlates with and hold accordingly. No dope to check or turrets to dial. Fast and easy. I can transition quickly and smoothly through a 3 Gun course of fire with multiple targets at multiple ranges without ever breaking cheek weld.

My PRS competition rifles have the H59 and I have the SCR in my hunting rifles.

I'm not making any claims that it's the end all reticle. It's not, its basic. But basic has a place, and understanding how easy they are to use with any rifle and dispelling the whole ".223/.308" reticle myth perpetrated on us is the key to getting the most out of the reticle. And even educating those guys using it and making them better shooters.

But it's still the exact same system using the exact same methods. It's just a hold reticle with less subtensions to make it easy to use. Once you know the hold for any given rifle, it's super simple.

Thanks-you expressed my sentiment much clearer than I had the patience to after working a 14hr day of storm response while typing on my phone.

Subtensions are subtensions. Back when the biggest reticle arguments were “are oval dots better than round dots”, and no one had matching turrets, people still applied known ballistic drop to what they had.
Remember when dialing for say, 400yds gave one the ability to have 100yd aiming point at the top of a duplex, and 900 at the bottom?

Sure I’ve seen people in the field that have no business hunting, ones that have no knowledge and ethics, but I’ve also seen people show up to competitions with $10k in “kit” and pack up and leave because they thought their investment would do the job for them.

The OP asked about a 223 BDC’s ability to be utilized on a 308 SCAR inside 300yds. The resulting conversation showed him it can be highly effective with a little application of knowledge.

The Nikon whose reticle I posted came in on a trade and is reliable, repeatable and tracks well. It will serve fine on my current budget on my hunting gun.
The USO RWF 3 Gun I posted was a custom build while I shot for USO built on a 1-8 to showcase the tech on my 308 for hunting thick areas that also may include longer medium range shots.
Neither is my choice for precision, but both are deadly when game appears and only presents a quick educated estimate of range before the shot is lost.

To say a tool has no job because it’s not one’s choice for their job in a blanket statement full of judgements and assumptions helps no one.

Now I remember why I take years long hiatuses from engaging here.

 

[101stinfantry]

In general I'm not a BDC fan, however the one in the ACOG seems to work fairly well, and no its not for precision work. Then again I don't think anyone utilizing a 13.5" barrel, with a battle rifle is looking for bugholes either. Some of you are ignoring context.

 

[Birddog6424]

The ACOG is a perfect example of how a BDC should work. It's also part of the problem.

For military use the ACOG is excellent. A low powered optic with a reticle designed for the specific weapon platform. You can throw together a group of people from all walks of life and train them to use the 2 line for 200 yards, the 3 line for 300 yards, etc. Its boringly simple to use, you can train anyone on it, and its effective.

But the military uses the same weapon platform and the same ammunition across a broad spectrum. It's easier to design a reticle around that.

Queue in the civilian population that isnt even remotely standardized in their weapon and ammo selection, and suddenly the "223" reticle isnt so simple. I've literally seen guys trying to figure out loads to match the reticle instead of just doping the rifle and applying it to the reticle. If scope makers hadn't taken their queues from the military and had simply set up a BDC without calling it a .233 or .308 reticle, and offered the mils/moa diagram so everyone could quickly correlate their dope to the reticle, it would have eliminated a lot of confusion.

 

[101stinfantry]

Well part of that problem is alot of people want what the High Speed, Low Drag guys use. So it sells, and marketing pushes it.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

As has been pointed out, out to 500 yards velocity is the main determiner of trajectory. Rounds that differ by 100 BC points will fly very similarly as long as velocity is comparable. They diverge sharply after that.

If it needs a bit of tweaking, usually 1 moa up or down on the zero will line it up nicely.

No one is shooting "precision rifle" with a BDC, but for a whole bunch of real shooting at shit that refuses to stand still, it works more than well enough.