Using the magazine for support when firing?

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northshore440

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Minuteman
Feb 10, 2012
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Ohio
#1
Regarding the AR platform:
Some say never use the magazine for support when firing the weapon while others say use it. I have heard both sides of the argument many times from different types/levels of shooters. I am just looking for some hide members to weigh in on the matter.
I am looking for practical explanations as to why or why not.
If this subject has already been covered, I apologize. I could not find it.

Thanks.
 
#2
Re: Using the magazine for support when firing?

Some guns will have feeding issues when you torque the magazine. If not, it's quite a convenient rest. I use that technique on both my AR's; one is a S&W MP15 Sport, the other is a Del-Ton. In my opinion, any AR worth using shouldn't have an issue with this.
 
#4
Re: Using the magazine for support when firing?

If there nothing else to brace the rifle on while prone, I dig my magazine into the ground for stability. Be sure to check it out before doing so in a critical situation. If your rifle jams when doing this, either throw the mag away or mark it a "no-go" for prone shooting.
 
#6
Re: Using the magazine for support when firing?

with modern mags I have had no issues getting down in prone and putting the mag on the ground and using it as a monopod.

I have some really old Colt 20 round mags that the base plate would go into the bottom of the mag, if you put it on a rock or in the dirt it would compress the rounds in the mag inducing malfunctions.

Other than that I see no reason why not to get low and get stable, use the mag.
 
#9
Re: Using the magazine for support when firing?

I've had good luck doing it using the ranger rubber followers before, because they provide a bit of cushion.. but otherwise I'd just prefer to keep the dirt out of the bottom of the mag.
 
#11
Re: Using the magazine for support when firing?

While I have listened to both sides of opinion on the matter for years, a few days ago I watched a Marine, recently back from the Mid-east, give very specific instructions(to put it politely) to a non-mil shooter about never using the magazine as a point of contact.

I thought I would run the topic up the flagpole and see if I could get an educated response.
 
#12
Re: Using the magazine for support when firing?

The two most compelling reasons to avoid the practice are:

1. Poorly-made mag wells and/or bad mags might mis-feed; and

2. It reputedly can change the point of impact greatly.

#1 has been addressed above, and I tend to agree that the rifle/mag system *should* work. Just remember how many people went either insane or to their graves depending on "should".

#2 might not be as bad as I thought, though there have been some times I came off of a string *that had a flyer* and noticed that everything digging into the dirt had left a mag mark...not sure it was a shot BEFORE I moved the bipod out of the holes, or the mark was when I decided to adjust.

And #2 also depends on the level of precision sought. Those Viking Tactical guys doing 15-round strings in 4 seconds or less (yeah, that's standing) wouldn't care/notice with that exercise being done at the almost bad-breath distance of 5 meters.

If you want to hit a target less than 4 MOA, then you'd better test-fire and know a) whether it changes your POI, and b) if yes, by how much. At various distances.

Recoil dynamics can make a big difference.

And back to 1. above, doing it a lot with aluminum mags could conceivably result in wear and tolerance stack building up to cause a malf where none had been seen before.

So within its limits, it has its uses. Try it out and make up your own mind.
 
#13
Re: Using the magazine for support when firing?

I don't go out and intentionally use it as a rest, nor do a shovel out a pit for it to hang freely. I just don't find it terribly stable and it kinda screws with angles sometimes due to where the pivot is for me anyway. If I needed to get low however, I'd drive it right into the ground if the ground was pliable.
The reason I've heard not to is that it can change the magazine and therefore follower and round's orientation to the bolt, feedramps, and chamber and induce malfunctions. I suppose also if you really slammed her down you could probably drive debris inside or smash the mag, but that's not really from using it as a rest.
 
#15
Re: Using the magazine for support when firing?

Plain and simple, it is a technique.

Old mags don't work well with this, new mags are no problem.

It isn't intended to be used to make sub MOA groups on paper, but rather allow shooters to take a more stable shot at a man sized target. I would say 90% of people carrying an AR15 platform in combat or as a cop do not have precision optics on the rifle and do not have a harris bipod on the front of it. In a stressful situation where they are tired and have been running around, shooting prone unsupported is a tough shot, so placing the M4 on the magazine allows the shooter to create a more stable platform to execute the shot.

It isn't ideal to do it every time, but it is another tool in the bag to execute the fight. Gun fighting isn't a static situation where there are benches to shoot off of. The more you vary and practice shooting positions, the more comfortable the shooter will be when they have to use unorthodox positions.

 
#17
Re: Using the magazine for support when firing?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Socomike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rifles that are in spec with magazines that are servicable should have no problem using the mag as a monopod. </div></div>

Agreed.
 
#19
Re: Using the magazine for support when firing?

I have a RRA AR15 running with P-Mags. I have done it for years with 0 issues. No point of aim issues either. Some of my mags have the ranger plates installed, no issues with them either. As pretty much everyone else said practice and train with your equipment how you are going to use it. If it works, keep it. If it dont scrap it.
 
#22
Re: Using the magazine for support when firing?

I shoot a Stag 3L and use the magazine as a rest when shooting prone all the time. Usually using either a Tapco or Pmag polymer, 30rd magazine. Have never had a problem doing this. I mostly shoot at 100 yards and haven't noticed any point of impact change.

I don't always shoot my AR terribly well from the bench. Maybe because it jumps more than a bolt gun. I often shoot better prone with the magazine in contact with the ground than I do off of a sandbag. Though as I've gotten the gun in tighter at the bench, my scores have improved there.
 
#23
Re: Using the magazine for support when firing?

Ok now, if were talking about going to the range, shooting off a bench trying to get .5 moa accuracy out of your weapon, then I do not suggest using your mag. If you run and gun that is what it is meant for. If your sitting on a bench then get a bipod.
 
#25
Re: Using the magazine for support when firing?

Mono-podding is a farily common and accepted practice in 3-gun by Tac Ops and Limited shooters (Open can use a bipod) on distant targets. I specifically have one of these for mono-podding:

pmag30302.jpg


Running PMags in a DPMS lower with JP upper has produced no malfunctions and enough accuracy to successfully engage 2MOA or larger targets out to 400yds over the past few years. Granted 3-gun is only a game.
 
#26
Re: Using the magazine for support when firing?

I conduct all of the firearms training for our agency. I have seen this technique done with semi-auto and full auto weapons and I have not seen an issue with it yet. It is not fomrally taught but it is amazing how everyone eventually uses it when it works for the situation. I say test it with you gear and see how it works for you.
 
#27
Re: Using the magazine for support when firing?

As someone pointed out above, this is done all the time on long distance stages in 3 gun. I have never seen it cause an issue or have it cause an issue for me.
 
#28
Re: Using the magazine for support when firing?

I approach this from another point of veiw.

Under stress in akward shooting positions it is possible to have a mag touch something. Roll over prone against a auto tire, shooting under a car at a bad guy is the wrong time to think about "Am I supposed to rest on the magizine"

When I train I ensure my system does not have problems when doing this.

If you have this problem, it will rise to the surface in a dynamic unforgiving enviroment.
 
#29
Re: Using the magazine for support when firing?

It seems to be common for Marines to be against mag on the deck. They'd never let us do it. I came from there (& I wasnt a POG) & I think it stems from some sort of sling pride. Its fine & thats the end of the story. If it doesnt work then your guns or mags are a friggin wreck.
 
#30
Re: Using the magazine for support when firing?

I can't speak to more dynamic styles of shooting. But when working with new shooters in a prone position with a sling, vs those not using a sling and posting on the magazine, I see much less accuracy for those without the sling using the monopod approach.

If I had to guess I would say its related to the single point of support being closer to the shooter rather than forward like a bipod.
 
#32
Re: Using the magazine for support when firing?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RufDog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It seems to be common for Marines to be against mag on the deck. They'd never let us do it. I came from there (& I wasnt a POG) & I think it stems from some sort of sling pride. Its fine & thats the end of the story. If it doesnt work then your guns or mags are a friggin wreck. </div></div>

I can second this, it's pretty easy to use your arm to support the front of the rile, thats how we were taught. GI mags especially in older rifles move around a lot, you will have POI issues. I guess the flip side of that is having to adapt to the situation, overseas you could be stuck in the prone for a long time, and its just not practical to maintain what we would call a proper shooting position.

Here is a google picture, generally speaking forward hand should be closer towards the front sight post, this is the idea.

080322m5797h003zg6.jpg
 
#33
Re: Using the magazine for support when firing?

I would like to thank all who responded. Just to let you guys know, I wasn't asking if I should, I was just curious if there was a reasonably valid argument for not resting the weapon on its mag for additional support. I realize that sticking it into the muck and the mire is not optimal, but I have never seen a single malfunction or safety or performance issue that I could attribute to the technique.

However, I still hear the ex-mil guys I work with chiding people for resting the mag on the deck, but they can't give me logical reason for the practice.

Thanks Again.
 
#35
Re: Using the magazine for support when firing?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vkc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">practically speaking, it is okay to use the magazine as a rest, as long as you don't have malfunction issues. </div></div>
Yep. I've done both, found out the issue steel mags didnt work 100% in my old ass M4 with a 203 attached, the magpuls did. Not very often I didnt SOME sort of support for the weapon. Of course, YMMV.
wink.gif
 
#36
Re: Using the magazine for support when firing?

"Canadian Prone" is an effective combat shooting technique. Issue magazines may have a small floorplate disassembly hole which can allow in fine sand, dirt, and dust.

20MAR-059-L.jpg


20MAR-041-L.jpg


20MAR-105-L.jpg


21MAR-031-L.jpg


21MAR-107-L.jpg


d0025.gif
 
#38
Re: Using the magazine for support when firing?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: northshore440</div><div class="ubbcode-body">a few days ago I watched <span style="font-weight: bold">a Marine, recently back from the Mid-east</span>, give very specific instructions(to put it politely) to a non-mil shooter about never using the magazine as a point of contact.</div></div>

There are very few individuals and even fewer units in the entire US military who are professional shooters, and most guys (to include those in combat arms both in the Army and the USMC) don't fall in that category. As such they tend to be stuck several years behind the curve at any one time. Usually the top tier SOF elements experiment with new TTPs, what they learn and develop trickles down to the rest of SOF, and finally makes it to regular units many years later.

To answer your question, use the magazine as a monopod.
 
#39
Re: Using the magazine for support when firing?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: northshore440</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While I have listened to both sides of opinion on the matter for years, a few days ago I watched a Marine, recently back from the Mid-east, give very specific instructions(to put it politely) to a non-mil shooter about never using the magazine as a point of contact.</div></div>

One thing the Marine Corps (Fleet) does not do well is experiment with new ideas. Marines are indoctrinated to do what we are told without question. This works very well for some things, but not for others. Our lessons tend to be learned in blood.

I too was told through Boot, SOI and the Fleet that I should never put my mag on the deck because it could cause a malfunction. Once I got back into the world and started experimenting without fear of pushing until I died, I learned a few things.

Using the magazine as a monopod works extremely well if your rifle is properly designed and maintained. If you use shitty magazines or you have a dicked up rifle, it can cause malfunctions.
 
#42
Re: Using the magazine for support when firing?

Use any means of support you have. Whether that is a pack, a tree, car hood, or your magazine. 4 years in the Marine Corp Infantry and years overseas using the magazine as a rest and never had a malfunction related to that. The Marines were famous for teaching not to use the magazine because it would cause malfunctions. I was also an instructor for them and raised every bullshit flag on it.
Currently teaching and instructing I still teach to use the mag as a rest if necessary. I've used the old GI mags and new PMags with no problems from either.
 
#43
Re: Using the magazine for support when firing?

At work most of us use the mag mono pod tecnique and have no issues. The few that don't are old Marines set in their ways and I think they almost all get out shot in quals. If you really get up over your rifle firing off the magazine is very stable and I have gotten decent groups in quals using it.

I'm running a Colt and P-Mags so no equipment issues related to poor quality.
 
#44
Re: Using the magazine for support when firing?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: northshore440</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While I have listened to both sides of opinion on the matter for years, a few days ago I watched a Marine, recently back from the Mid-east, give very specific instructions(to put it politely) to a non-mil shooter about never using the magazine as a point of contact.

I thought I would run the topic up the flagpole and see if I could get an educated response. </div></div>

As a fellow Marine I can assure you he was regurgitating what they tell us in Boot Camp. Bad things happen to you if you use your mag as a unipod.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vkc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">practically speaking, it is okay to use the magazine as a rest, as long as you don't have malfunction issues. </div></div>

I agree.
Magazines in the Marine Corps are not in good shape. They are heavily mistreated and very very very rarely discarded. Even if they cause malfunctions the armorer <span style="font-style: italic">may</span> just put it back in the pile to issue to boots.

080322m5797h003zg6.jpg


Looking at this picture vs the army pictures it looks like the Marines are getting an easier sight picture with much less...neck yoga lol

d0025.gif


Even this picture from above shows the mag on what looks like a sandbag. It looks like the pencil soldier here has his head raised much higher because of that. The "canadian prone" looks pretty uncomfortable. Especially with a kevlar on.


Marine bravado..."Marines' way is better" lol
wink.gif
wink.gif
 
#45
Re: Using the magazine for support when firing?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Caelumatra</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: northshore440</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While I have listened to both sides of opinion on the matter for years, a few days ago I watched a Marine, recently back from the Mid-east, give very specific instructions(to put it politely) to a non-mil shooter about never using the magazine as a point of contact.

I thought I would run the topic up the flagpole and see if I could get an educated response. </div></div>

As a fellow Marine I can assure you he was regurgitating what they tell us in Boot Camp. Bad things happen to you if you use your mag as a unipod.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vkc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">practically speaking, it is okay to use the magazine as a rest, as long as you don't have malfunction issues. </div></div>

I agree.
Magazines in the Marine Corps are not in good shape. They are heavily mistreated and very very very rarely discarded. Even if they cause malfunctions the armorer <span style="font-style: italic">may</span> just put it back in the pile to issue to boots.

080322m5797h003zg6.jpg


Looking at this picture vs the army pictures it looks like the Marines are getting an easier sight picture with much less...neck yoga lol

d0025.gif


Even this picture from above shows the mag on what looks like a sandbag. It looks like the pencil soldier here has his head raised much higher because of that. The "canadian prone" looks pretty uncomfortable. Especially with a kevlar on.


Marine bravado..."Marines' way is better" lol
wink.gif
wink.gif
</div></div>

Marines are allowed to shoot w/o a helmet too... the Army isn't, the helmet cause way more "neck yoga" that the mag on the deck
 
#46
Re: Using the magazine for support when firing?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Caelumatra said:
Marines are allowed to shoot w/o a helmet too... the Army isn't, the helmet cause way more "neck yoga" that the mag on the deck </div></div>

I'll have to take your word on that
smile.gif
I've shot a lot with a flak and kevlar on but very little to none with the mag on the deck.
Click to expand...
 
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