USMC Unertl MST Scope and GG&G Rings

[ODCMP]

I posted this on the optics page, but didn't get many views, so maybe it fits better here:

I see that a lot of the USMC Unertl scopes the CMP has been selling come with the GG&G rings (4 screw). Most of them seem to be on the .50 cal marked scopes. I've also seen mention of GG&G rings on the early M40A3's.

Were the GG&G rings the same for those, or did they use different rings for the .30 cal and .50 cal rifles? What were the heights if they were different? I saw reference to .886 but that is all I have found.

Also a question on the scopes themselves, it looks like there are 4 configurations:

- unmodified
- USO modification (still in .30)
- USO modification to .50
- originally made as .50

Is that correct? If so, did Unertl make the last ones (originally in 50 cal) or did USO?

Thanks,
Dave

 

[HH4]

The rings should be Badger, I believe you are correct on the Unertl though. I think all the original scopes were made by Unertl although USO did the repairs.

 

[ODCMP]

Here is a link to one in an old auction for example. It has GGG rings and the scope appears to have been originally made for a .50 cal. rather than modified:

http://cmpauction.thecmp.org/detail.asp?id=3069&n=USMC-10x-Unertl-Sniper-Telescope-5122-50-Caliber

http://cmp1.zenfolio.com/p351016241


Here is another one from an old auction with GGG rings and a scope that has been converted to .50.

http://cmpauction.thecmp.org/detail.asp?id=2548&n=USMC-10X-Unertl-Sniper-Telescope-1395-50-caliber

Dave

 

[kraigWY]

Dave you should have posted the link to the Marine sniper rifle you had last week over here. I think you could have gotten a few more K out of it.

 

[ODCMP]

Dave you should have posted the link to the Marine sniper rifle you had last week over here. I think you could have gotten a few more K out of it.

I'm not following you there. You must be confusing me with someone else.

 

[kraigWY]

I'm not following you there. You must be confusing me with someone else.

Maybe, the ODCMP fooled me, I thought it was the CMP staff (Office of the Director of the Civilian Marksmanship Program) I was thinking about the Marine Sniper Rifle they sold on their Auction site last week that went for over $25K.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[USMCSGT0331]

I see that a lot of the USMC Unertl scopes the CMP has been selling come with the GG&G rings (4 screw). Most of them seem to be on the .50 cal marked scopes. I've also seen mention of GG&G rings on the early M40A3's.

The .50 cal scopes (MST-150) the CMP has been selling have had a mix of 4 screw and 6 screw front rings. The 6 screw front ring was intended to spread the load of the night vision unit when it was attached to a simrad top ring. The earliest A3's used GGG rings, but the Corps quickly moved away from them and started using Badger rings. The GGG rings from this era had a small bolt head instead of the current large one.

Were the GG&G rings the same for those, or did they use different rings for the .30 cal and .50 cal rifles? What were the heights if they were different? I saw reference to .886 but that is all I have found.

The MST-100 and MST-150 had different ring heights (I don't know the measurements). In addition to this, the GGG MST-150 rings that I've seen are all a larger diameter than the Unertl scope, so they use 30mm ring reducers.

Also a question on the scopes themselves, it looks like there are 4 configurations:

- unmodified
- USO modification (still in .30)
- USO modification to .50
- originally made as .50

Is that correct? If so, did Unertl make the last ones (originally in 50 cal) or did USO?

That's mostly correct, there are still different reticles that were used and repaired by Unertl before USO started working on them. Otherwise, from an external standpoint, those are the 4 main USMC Unertl configurations. Unertl made the original MST-150 in the early 1990's when the Corps got their first shipments of M82 rifles (these scopes are in the 5xxx serial number range). USO began making the MST-100 sometime around 1999 or 2000.

The rings should be Badger, I believe you are correct on the Unertl though. I think all the original scopes were made by Unertl although USO did the repairs.

The very first rings for the M40A3 were GGG, not Badger. Badger rings were used after the USMC discovered that the GGG rings were absolute garbage. The GGG rings lasted maybe half a year in use.

I was thinking about the Marine Sniper Rifle they sold on their Auction site last week that went for over $25K.

The Unertl scopes and GGG rings were never used on the XM3, not sure why the CMP would ever add them to an XM3 kit. I paid a crazy amount for the one that just sold, but totally worth it as my platoon had the rifle in Fallujah, Iraq. And it just showed up this morning! The other crap in the photo are also things the showed up this week.....

Also, the earliest A3's may have used a 4 screw front ring before the Corps switched to the 6 screw front rings. If they ever did use a GGG 4 screw front ring, it would have either been extremely short lived or only used on the prototype rifles. The A3's were first built in December 2001 and the USMC technical manual TM05539D-24&P/2 from August 2002 shows diagrams of the A3's with 6 screw front rings. That's a mere 8 months after the initial production of the A3 rifles and it shows the 6 screw rings.

There is a photo of what is claimed to be one of the first A3 rifles built and it has a 4 screw front ring installed. I haven't been able to verify where or when this picture was taken, but it appears to be legit. Research into the possible use of 4 screw front rings on the earliest M40A3's is ongoing, if you have any info on this, please post it here.

If the 4 screw front screw GGG rings were used on the earliest A3's, I'll need to start putting these on rifles!

 

[ODCMP]

Maybe, the ODCMP fooled me, I thought it was the CMP staff (Office of the Director of the Civilian Marksmanship Program) I was thinking about the Marine Sniper Rifle they sold on their Auction site last week that went for over $25K.

Sorry for the confusion.

No problem, I understand. The story on the name is that when the CMP changed their software a few years back I couldn't re-register my prior name Cass (that I've used for years on forums). After trying several different names with no success, out of frustration I decided to just make myself the boss, ODCMP, ha. Then when Scout started up I had the same problem so I used ODCMP there too.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[ODCMP]

The very first rings for the M40A3 were GGG, not Badger. Badger rings were used after the USMC discovered that the GGG rings were absolute garbage. The GGG rings lasted maybe half a year in use.



The Unertl scopes and GGG rings were never used on the XM3, not sure why the CMP would ever add them to an XM3 kit. I paid a crazy amount for the one that just sold, but totally worth it as my platoon had the rifle in Fallujah, Iraq. And it just showed up this morning! The other crap in the photo are also things the showed up this week.....

[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i346.photobucket.com\/albums\/p414\/nied0044\/DSC01551_zpsdkhzzlu4.jpg"}[/IMG2]

Also, the earliest A3's may have used a 4 screw front ring before the Corps switched to the 6 screw front rings. If they ever did use a GGG 4 screw front ring, it would have either been extremely short lived or only used on the prototype rifles. The A3's were first built in December 2001 and the USMC technical manual TM05539D-24&P/2 from August 2002 shows diagrams of the A3's with 6 screw front rings. That's a mere 8 months after the initial production of the A3 rifles and it shows the 6 screw rings.

There is a photo of what is claimed to be one of the first A3 rifles built and it has a 4 screw front ring installed. I haven't been able to verify where or when this picture was taken, but it appears to be legit. Research into the possible use of 4 screw front rings on the earliest M40A3's is ongoing, if you have any info on this, please post it here.

[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i1.wp.com\/www.snipercentral.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2014\/10\/M40A3.jpg"}[/IMG2]

If the 4 screw front screw GGG rings were used on the earliest A3's, I'll need to start putting these on rifles!

[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i346.photobucket.com\/albums\/p414\/nied0044\/DSC01557_zps0y7nyiwn.jpg"}[/IMG2]

USMCSGT0331:

I've got to start with WOW, good job on the XM-3, especially with its history with your platoon! The items I have with a personal or known history are the most treasured. That XM-3 definitely falls in that category.

Thanks for all the other great information too. I appreciate the answers.

It's odd that the 4 screw GG&G's (front and rear) show up on several of the CMP Unertl .50 cal auctions. (See the links to pictures I posted above.) If anything would destroy them you'd think the .50 would. Maybe those in the auctions weren't used much.

I have a pair of 4 screw GGG with the small nut that are well worn desert camo and have obviously seen a lot of use. They are 30mm with a reducer as you said. I bought them thinking of the early M40A3's.

I called GGG earlier today and they said they made just one height of steel sniper rings for the military, 1.115". Does your stash in the last picture support that?

Thanks,
Dave