USPSA Range Officer problems

[Zak Smith]

Re: USPSA Range Officer problems

That's not the experience I have with USPSA competitors at all with regard to "gaming". The rules are well defined and the stage description says what it says. From there, either a method to shoot the stage incurs procedurals or it doesn't. Nobody breaks balls, although they might feel a little bad if they didn't think of the better way to shoot within the stated rules. Also, one way shooters with superior ability differentiate themselves is to shoot the stage in a way that is not possible for a lessor shooter.

The "gaming" objections you wrote are the same type of objections as those from the group of people that really <span style="font-style: italic">want</span> competition to <span style="font-style: italic">be</span> tactical training. (That is strange to me because you seem to believe that competition has little relevance to training.)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">thus I didn't reach the same conclusion that you do.
FoF for me exposed itself as extremely relevant. </div></div>
This does not contradict my statement about competition relevance to fighting; it is orthogonal.

FoF, when done right, is as close to real-life defensive encounters as training can get, so no question it's one of the most valuable parts of training.

However, there is no other normal venue that will provide the skill level developed by shooting hard matches on a regular basis.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: USPSA Range Officer problems

It's my understanding, you can't do FoF with civilians, at least with Simunitions.

I know some do, but technically you are not supposed too, and advertising it would put you at odds with them. You can do airsoft, but then that opens up a whole other area. So this severely limits the amount of attention FoF gets.

It's why it doesn't catch on as widespread.

lastly, I have yet to the military guys who train with competition shooters use anything but their issued kit. So the idea that they are trained on race guns is false. I know people like the burner will demo with race kit, but that is more about sales and marketing than about using it as a training tool.

Again, I think you mistake the use of competition guys as it pertains to the military. They are not training the soldier to game a course, they use square range techniques that will translate to the units own tactics. I have never seen or heard of someone being taught to game a course of fire. Their teachings are not in the scenario of the competition they themselves participate in.

Heck I know even when not necessarily doing a pistol class the units will use the ranges at RO to set up pistol shooting after hours to compete against each other. Everything from dueling trees to El Presidente stuff with the 4" head flopper targets we have. That is competitive shooting that they use, and enjoy and I would call it gaming practice. You may say, setting up facing the last target in line is gaming, but something as simple as that does have a training value.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: USPSA Range Officer problems

Re: civilian FoF training- I haven't had difficulty finding training outfits that do FoF with non-LEO civilians, however, purchasing the sim/UTM stuff as a regular guy can be problematic.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: USPSA Range Officer problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zak Smith</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Re: civilian FoF training- I haven't had difficulty finding training outfits that do FoF with non-LEO civilians, however, purchasing the sim/UTM stuff as a regular guy can be problematic.</div></div>

I know companies do it, but I am pretty sure it is against the Terms of Use for it... sure it gets done, but you're not supposed to unless something has changed.

 

[PLeighton]

Re: USPSA Range Officer problems

Not to mention the price of the ammo.

 

[Graham]

Re: USPSA Range Officer problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C Ward</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Every MOS in the army has a very well defined and tested set of individual skills that are the core of training , IE basic training and AIT . The larger unit , Squad , Platoon , Company , etc. , all build on these skills. It was my experience the soldiers that excelled at the individual skills also excelled at the larger unit stuff also. There are many things in the military that are a team effort but to say that the military is a team at the total exclusion of the individual part is wrong. One of the most coveted awards, the Expert Infantryman's Badge, is a totally individual effort. </div></div>People who are able to achieve at a higher level are usually better at everything they set their mind to. I am not saying that the military doesn't require the demonstration of individual skills from its members, of course it does. But I am saying that if the emphasis was on the individual there wouldn't be awards for it and that if an award was truly difficult to obtain few would be wearing it.

 

[fargo007]

Re: USPSA Range Officer problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zak Smith</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The "gaming" objections you wrote are the same type of objections as those from the group of people that really <span style="font-style: italic">want</span> competition to <span style="font-style: italic">be</span> tactical training. (That is strange to me because you seem to believe that competition has little relevance to training.)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">thus I didn't reach the same conclusion that you do.
FoF for me exposed itself as extremely relevant. </div></div>
This does not contradict my statement about competition relevance to fighting; it is orthogonal.

</div></div>

Yeah, pretty much. For me I certainly <span style="font-weight: bold">DO</span> want it to be training. I want any experience with a firearm to improve as many of my skill sets as possible.

I didn't intend to contradict your statement, only to point out that FoF for me did not reveal the same thing it did for you, and furnish the reasons. I don't consider that a new direction. Showing the same training experience reflecting differently off two people.

If an LEO or military operator attends civilian comp. with the goal of it serving as training, and getting reimbursed, they certainly want it to BE training and will proceed as if it were. Otherwise what do they take from it?

The gaming objections I point out are some significant departures from someone shooting a stage as if they were training. Associating my statements by simile with <span style="font-style: italic">'the group of people'</span> doesn't address them. The whole discussion started with the assertion that most professional shooters attend civilian comps to keep their skills sharp. That implies a training adjunct.

For those that do so, it makes sense to sharpen ALL the skills, including covering, cornering, movement, press-checking, scanning, etc. It is what you make of it. I think it can be used as good training by not leaving out or de-emphasizing all those critically important things, but in doing so you obviously won't be playing the game. One departure I can point out is IDPA - it incorporates this to a certain extent by demanding reloading be done behind cover, but that brings a subjective call into it.

If the targets were simply round bullseyes, squares, triangles, etc. and the stages did not feature or imply a personal defense nature, I don't think this discussion or any like it would have taken place. The issue just wouldn't be looked at the same way.

--Fargo007

 

[fargo007]

Re: USPSA Range Officer problems

Oh - forgot -

The issue with FoF training and why it is so rare is INSURANCE.

The gubment's got that whole "Sovereign Immunity" thing.....

Nobody will underwrite it.

There are alternatives to sim that work the same way. UK company??? Airsoft is also effective, but less desirable by professional comparison.

The gubment's got that whole "Sovereign Immunity" thing.....

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: USPSA Range Officer problems

Competition is not fight training. It is a fool's errand to try to make it into something that it cannot be. It is better to utilize competition for what it does best: evolve superior shooting skills. That is why the idea behind IDPA is misguided: they wanted it to be something it cannot be and in the process hamstrung the potential of what could be gotten from the sport.

Competition can be a part of training, just like running can be a part of training.

 

[Graham]

Re: USPSA Range Officer problems

Where this kind of discussion usually ends up is that everything one does can be useful in some way to everything else that one does, because the mind is the weapon and the gun the tool.

But when comparing guns to knives, swords, and other lower-tech weapons it is much easier for the minimally trained to be effective with a gun.

And so there is also a practical limit to realism: if one could only learn what to do in a gunfight by gunfighting the instructors would be significantly younger than they are. Enter FoF training, which builds the necessary skills not of the gun.

Meanwhile, specific muscle memory training can be done in isolation (like dry-firing while waching TV, or drawing in front of a mirror), as can visualizing, and that kind of training does not have to be done with a group or in a particlarly realistic environment.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: USPSA Range Officer problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Where this kind of discussion usually ends up is that everything one does can be useful in some way to everything else that one does, because the mind is the weapon and the gun the tool.
</div></div>

Well put.

I know that shooting pistol comps has made me better with a pistol. However, being better with a pistol is why I started shooting pistol comps. I'm pretty sure that in the event I wind up in a gunfight I will scan for more threats after reducing an imminent threat rather than unload and show clear......

 

[smokshwn]

Re: USPSA Range Officer problems

Frank and Zak have this discussion down...sadly this discussion usually starts due to an incessant need to justify one's process and activities as "more" genuinely badass than the next guy's. Most appropriately so, it is generally made by those who refuse to ever get "measured" or put their badass on display for others to judge.

The simple corollary lies in golf. The best ball striker on the range may not be the best golfer on the course, however you will never find the best golfer discounting the work he does on the driving range.

 

[paraman1]

Re: USPSA Range Officer problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zak Smith</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Re: civilian FoF training- I haven't had difficulty finding training outfits that do FoF with non-LEO civilians, however, purchasing the sim/UTM stuff as a regular guy can be problematic.</div></div>

I know companies do it, but I am pretty sure it is against the Terms of Use for it... sure it gets done, but you're not supposed to unless something has changed. </div></div>

We use Airsoft for FoF classes here locally . We wear gloves and safety glasses . You would be amazed how much you get shot in the hands .

 

[Lowlight]

Re: USPSA Range Officer problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Michael N</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zak Smith</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Re: civilian FoF training- I haven't had difficulty finding training outfits that do FoF with non-LEO civilians, however, purchasing the sim/UTM stuff as a regular guy can be problematic.</div></div>

I know companies do it, but I am pretty sure it is against the Terms of Use for it... sure it gets done, but you're not supposed to unless something has changed. </div></div>

We use Airsoft for FoF classes here locally . We wear gloves and safety glasses . You would be amazed how much you get shot in the hands .</div></div>

No I wouldn't RO is sim qual'ed... and uses it for .mil classes.

It's where the threat is ... in your hands, not to mention they are right there in front of you.

 

[Some_guy]

Re: USPSA Range Officer problems

stumbled across this website a few days ago and registered just to chime in on this.

1. It's called a training evolution for a reason. Training is to evolve you into a X(x = whatever tacticool job you have...or wish you had) and then keep that edge.

That is why in every decent training course there is you learn BASIC skills then evolve from there in whatever direction you need to go. Look at SFAS, the skills you are tested on are land nav, physical fitness, and stressful problem solving.

Why? they are the basics, and to get there you already have too know the other basic - shooting. Think laying brink, every evolutions is one brick, if you don't have a good footer your wall can't stand.

If you're shooting competition to learn cover and concealment, CQC tactics, etc. you have already failed. I am starting to shoot competition, not to learn anything, but to rehone the <span style="text-decoration: underline">perishable</span> part of the skillset.

2. If your a civy and you want to learn everything the military teaches either sign the line or get a 100k+ job and pay for it but even then you will always wonder if you really can, military will provide plenty a 1 chance pass/fail test.

3. Having said all that, competition is great for speed and accuracy and cannot give you anymore basics than the ones needed for competition. Even though there are overlaps of other skills.

For highly trained operators trying to keep or get back an edge due to bench time, it's an amazing evolution that i highly recomend. My rule, every hour in competition = 2 hrs training minimum. I'm unemployed at the moment about to reup if i can get a med waiver so that 2hrs is my responsibility for now. If i was active i wouldn't worry about it.

My .02

P.S. - i know my grammer and spelling suck. I shoot things, not write books or reports.

 

[Some_guy]

Re: USPSA Range Officer problems

Two more things, your brain is a muscle, use it or lose it. When you make fast paced decisions daily your mind works faster. After doing it for 20 twenty years anyone should be faster at problem solving. Lastly, the reason people shoot the hands alot during force on force is:

While doing a clear you are constantly scanning for targets. Target being defined a person with a weapon. Where do people carry weapons? Their hands. so you start mainly looking at the hands and fire if a threat is found. To change that hand shot to an upper torso shot, when you do FoF make sure you scan targets hands then look at their chest before or even while firing, since we know that one of the basics is: your sightline follows your view point.

Sorry but that is a pet pieve of mine, I have only heard it explained properly twice out of the many instructors that i have seen and getting shot in the hands with a blue barrel can breaks things.

 

[Adam B]

Re: USPSA Range Officer problems

Hey web MD, the human brain is not made of muscle, it is comprised of fatty tissues

 

[Some_guy]

Re: USPSA Range Officer problems

ya it is fatty tissue, and a neuro network with electrical connections called electrical synapses, if you use those connections they get faster, if you don't they break down, it's slow but it happens. Google some of the japanese research on electrical synapse stimulation, really facinating but easier to explain as "the brain is a muscle" than giving a class on biomechanics.

 

[Adam B]

Re: USPSA Range Officer problems

fair enough

 

[Some_guy]

Re: USPSA Range Officer problems

Adam B: no problem but a coms problem, I hate "dumbing" things down but it is what is.

op:
When i posted earlier i was kinda mad so sorry if i came off as a prick but i'd like to add that it is possible to get some decent training as a civy without breaking the bank as long as you are extremely persistant and blessed.

Here localy, the range i'm about to sart using is a private range, only open to the public one day a month for competition. I grew up here, know alot of people, and shoot avidly but just recently found out about it. As far as i know, there are only a few civilians allowed at the range and that is only after years of IPDA shooting to be vetted and "earn" an invite, I bet those guys learn at least a little something out there shooting every weekend with all the leo and military types.

Get out and get to know people, take some courses, be confident and demonstrate what skills you have but be realistic about your audience and unafraid to say i don't know but i'm willing to learn. Your friends might be impressed with a 2 inch, 300 meter group but do you want to learn from some one who is? or would you rather pick the brain of the 1/2 incher? Humility will get you far.

Humility: Recognizing virtues and talents that others possess, particularly those that surpass one's own, and giving due honor and, when required, obedience; Recognizing the limits of one's talents, ability, or authority; not reaching for what is beyond one's grasp; and, submission to God and other legitimate authorities