I know it's early in the game and I should probably hold my horses until after SHOT to see what comes from that, but I was curious as to whether anyone had a feeling about which company would be the best for ordering a Valkyrie upper? I am leaning towards JP rifles. Right now, their build time is into April if one orders now. Being patient is not one of my virtues and at my age, I don't buy green bananas - so I want to jump into the fray earlier than later.
-
Having trouble using the site?
Contact support
Valkyrie
- Thread starter prairiefire
- Start date
If you have the cash milehigh is selling an early preorder jp 224 valkyrie full rifle.expected in a few weeks. Cheaper that posted prices and it will be one of the first out. Not an upper hut i think at this date thats one of your only options
Unless factory ammo is make or break, I'd go with any of the 6.5 Grendels necked to .224 like .224AR or .224 Predator instead. Better round, and building yields better results for the money anyways.
Since this is a pure 224V thread, what are the viability in shooting PRS matches with it? I was watching one of the Shot Show reviews and someone offhandedly said something about if the 224V would meet semi-auto PRS requirements? Is there a PF or something that might hinder its adoption?
I'm building mine solely for PRS gas gun series. You just have to run open class, other than that there's no restrictions.
If you can muster the patience, Midway has the entire CMMG 224 24" Valkyrie Upper available for back order.
I have owned a CMMG 16 Bull Wasp 223 Upper for half a decade, and it's a rock solid tack driver. Coupled with a Bushnell AR 223 Drop Zone 3-12x40 BDC scope and Federal Fusion MSR 62gr 223 ammunition, it's a very capable heavy barrelled M4 clone.
BTW, Federal also offers a Fusion MSR 90gr 224 Valkyrie load, too. Federal FGMM 90gr 224 Valkyrie is advertised to run supersonic out to 1300yd with the 24" barrel.
Greg
I have owned a CMMG 16 Bull Wasp 223 Upper for half a decade, and it's a rock solid tack driver. Coupled with a Bushnell AR 223 Drop Zone 3-12x40 BDC scope and Federal Fusion MSR 62gr 223 ammunition, it's a very capable heavy barrelled M4 clone.
BTW, Federal also offers a Fusion MSR 90gr 224 Valkyrie load, too. Federal FGMM 90gr 224 Valkyrie is advertised to run supersonic out to 1300yd with the 24" barrel.
Greg
Last edited:
I'd be real careful of buying anything with a rifle gas system with a barrel longer than 18"... unless you are only buying factory ammo with no regard for the fired cases.
Last edited:
Do you mean rifle gas length with a barrel longer than 18 inches, or an 18 inch gas system on a 24 inch barrel? Is it particular to the 224V with its higher powder charge?
The first way would imply that the starboard ar15 20 inch barrel set-up isn’t kosher? Would an adjustable gas system modify your statement?
JP runs a +2inch gas system (from rifle I assume) for the 22inch barrel, as I understand it.
ETA: Just looked at the Midway CMMG. That barrel length with the gas port in that location does look odd. If that is what you were referring to, I could see that I’m not sure how the bullet gets out before the bolt is unlocking, though I may have the time scales way off.
Considering case capacities are close to 223/556 and pressure is pretty low I highly doubt that there will be any issue with NOT going to an extended gas system in barrels over 18". If there is then it certainly also isn't anything an adjustable gas block won't take care of. Powder burn rates and pressure curves also come into play. Certainly way too much to consider to say one way or another.
He may be talking about high pressure and dwell time which I just don't see being an issue here. Also look at how some of the rifles are setup from manufacturers who were directly involved in the project.
He may be talking about high pressure and dwell time which I just don't see being an issue here. Also look at how some of the rifles are setup from manufacturers who were directly involved in the project.
One need only to look at the 22 Nosler and all the brass it's torn up posted across the forums and youtube when loaded with heavy for caliber bullets. In this case we will be using even heavier bullets, driven slower and spending more time (dwell) with in the bore. True, this cartridge doesn't have the same case capacity. But, the bullets will be heavier with a slower velocity. One of these Valkyrie threads already has a onlooker witnessing badly damaged brass, unfortunately that poster had no rifle platform info to share.
My experience comes from 6 & 6.5mm Creedmoors, 6 & 6.5mm grendels and the challenges I've had with differing gas lengths and heavy for caliber bullets. I personally would not purchase a barrel longer than 18" if it didn't have a longer than rifle length gas system. That is if I wished to get the most out of 80-95 grain bullets and hope to have decent case life. Yes a smaller gas port aperture, an adjustable gas block, heavy buffer and recoil spring will help but you still may have issues with dwell, better to delay that pressure 2" with a lower peak than not... time will tell, but I expect a lot of barrel manufacturers to jump on the profit wave early again without doing R&D first.
Look at Savage, their first valkyrie to market is an 18" barrel with rifle gas... with the shot show salesman adding, "a longer barrel may be in the plans at some point" but no release date offered... could this be indicating that they are doing their due diligence in research and development first rather than later?
I'm no expert in the field, I'm just a rifle competitor that has spent the last couple years trying to perfect my AR rifle builds while spending a small fortune in the process. My advice may only be worth what you paid for it.
ETA, Federal went to JP, neighbors have privileges, and JP went with rifle +2".
My experience comes from 6 & 6.5mm Creedmoors, 6 & 6.5mm grendels and the challenges I've had with differing gas lengths and heavy for caliber bullets. I personally would not purchase a barrel longer than 18" if it didn't have a longer than rifle length gas system. That is if I wished to get the most out of 80-95 grain bullets and hope to have decent case life. Yes a smaller gas port aperture, an adjustable gas block, heavy buffer and recoil spring will help but you still may have issues with dwell, better to delay that pressure 2" with a lower peak than not... time will tell, but I expect a lot of barrel manufacturers to jump on the profit wave early again without doing R&D first.
Look at Savage, their first valkyrie to market is an 18" barrel with rifle gas... with the shot show salesman adding, "a longer barrel may be in the plans at some point" but no release date offered... could this be indicating that they are doing their due diligence in research and development first rather than later?
I'm no expert in the field, I'm just a rifle competitor that has spent the last couple years trying to perfect my AR rifle builds while spending a small fortune in the process. My advice may only be worth what you paid for it.
ETA, Federal went to JP, neighbors have privileges, and JP went with rifle +2".
Last edited:
NC; interesting observation. I had never given that aspect any thought and do not, as yet, have a 224V. At this point, it's still in doubt whether I will; I have some reservations about potentially overbore chamberings, even in a bolt gun.
I do have a pair of 24" heavy barrel 223 AR's that I shoot with 75gr projectiles (mostly) and Varget (always). The only tendency of note is considerable carbon inside the receiver, but function and accuracy are nominal. A wipe and a light relube is all I seem to have to do.
There does not appear to be any issue with the 223 brass (Win and PPU) using the 75's and Varget (24.4gr, but am redeveloping down to 23.5gr-23.7gr because I really don't have a need for the higher velocity, and that load shoots better in my bolt gun, and also did with the Varmint AR before I went with the higher load for 600yd F T/R. Turns out the lower velocity would have been just as good, and the higher load wasn't as accurate for the AR as I had hoped).
Greg
I do have a pair of 24" heavy barrel 223 AR's that I shoot with 75gr projectiles (mostly) and Varget (always). The only tendency of note is considerable carbon inside the receiver, but function and accuracy are nominal. A wipe and a light relube is all I seem to have to do.
There does not appear to be any issue with the 223 brass (Win and PPU) using the 75's and Varget (24.4gr, but am redeveloping down to 23.5gr-23.7gr because I really don't have a need for the higher velocity, and that load shoots better in my bolt gun, and also did with the Varmint AR before I went with the higher load for 600yd F T/R. Turns out the lower velocity would have been just as good, and the higher load wasn't as accurate for the AR as I had hoped).
Greg
Last edited:
I thought the 224V was going to have an advantage in cost/round when talking about match rounds compared to 6CM and 6.5CM. I see the blaster American Eagle is $0.50/rnd, but the 90 Match stuff is a little over a $1/rnd, right about there with match ammo in 6CM and 6.5CM? Do I have that right? I get the advantage of using an MSR platform, but is or isn't there a financial advantage?
I have a Kreiger .220 Thunderbolt on the way instead of Valkrie. 6mm Hager brass necked to .223....no fireforming, no neck turning. Simply run brass into the sizing die and load it up.
http://www.keystoneaccuracy.com/220thunderbolt.html
http://www.keystoneaccuracy.com/220thunderbolt.html
Last edited:
IF, the bore life ends up being true, you'll save one barrel change for 6.5 and two 6mm Creedmoor's. That's a big if though.
Good point on the barrel life- and they better for what JP charges for barrel and heat dissipator.
Padom- Sorry? How does the 90gr 220 Thunderbolt round fit in a MSR mag?
Padom- Sorry? How does the 90gr 220 Thunderbolt round fit in a MSR mag?
Sorry this cartridge is completely new to me as of yesterday and misunderstood. 90+ gr are single load. Up to 85 Barnes are mag fed in the 6.8 mags. 77smk and stuff like that in the 3300-3400 range. 1/4moa accuracy easy. Over 10 reloads on the Hornady 6mm Hagar brass.
For anybody considering this round, check out LWRC. They recently started doing .224V's on their new DI rifles, which include/compatible with the extended length Six8 mags that allow for longer COAL. IMO if I was gonna go for a Valk, this is exactly what Id get in order to get the most from the round.. they aint priced bad at all either, especially for what you're getting.
https://www.lwrci.com/p-5302-lwrci-valkyrie-224-di.aspx
https://www.lwrci.com/p-5302-lwrci-valkyrie-224-di.aspx
I went with a DTech build. They use Shilen match grade barrels with a 1:6.5 twist. Getting a 22" barrel. Should be here next week!
Doesn’t that make it a pretty proprietary system? Special mags and special receivers? At that point I might just go with an AR10 platform. It’s nice engineering it seems, but if it has to be that far from standard doesn’t that reduce the advantage of sticking with the AR15 platform?
I figure if youre gonna stray from the .223 case to begin with... might as well make the most of it and go all the way.
The mags don't really allow for more oal, if someone would start making a metal mag for the six8 platform there would be quite a bit of room.
They do make 6.8 steel magazines. Only difference is the follower. I used to modify them by cutting out the front edge on five rounders to get the bullets closer to lands. More powder,less pressure, better velocity. ARP barrels are fantastic for the 6.8. I suspect they would be good for the Valkrie as well.
blackblue is referring to LWRC's Six8 frame, not the standard AR15. Mugpul is the only option that I am aware of for the Six8.
LWRC looks like a swing and a miss for precision stuff because of the mags offered, unless they're going to offer more that is. The 30's are way too long for most stuff we do, and the 5's aren't enough unless you want to do 3-5 mag changes in a stage.
I'll stick to the standard AR platform. The mags offer more than plenty OAL and I can run 15's for prone and other low stuff, and 25's where they'll work.
I'll stick to the standard AR platform. The mags offer more than plenty OAL and I can run 15's for prone and other low stuff, and 25's where they'll work.
The first parts arrive on the new project...
For those interested in the new pointed 90smk's the length here is 1.169 with 1.166-1.172 being the variation with what I measured from the first 10 I pulled from the box.
For those interested in the new pointed 90smk's the length here is 1.169 with 1.166-1.172 being the variation with what I measured from the first 10 I pulled from the box.
Another data point I found on youtube, 20" barreled rifle with FGMM 90 gr was turning in 2613ish ,IIRC, using a lab radar and at -7 degree on a sunny day in MN last week.
Next box arrived, ammo and mags...
Here are some comparisons, the loaded cartridge measures 2.248".
From the top down.
69 TMK
77 TMK
90 SMK
80 A-Max
75 A-Max
PRI 15 round mag, all steel and welded. A quick measurement suggests a COAL of 2.305ish
Factory Hornady 6.5 Grendel with 123 ELD vs Factory FGMM 90smk Valkyrie.
Here are some comparisons, the loaded cartridge measures 2.248".
From the top down.
69 TMK
77 TMK
90 SMK
80 A-Max
75 A-Max
PRI 15 round mag, all steel and welded. A quick measurement suggests a COAL of 2.305ish
Factory Hornady 6.5 Grendel with 123 ELD vs Factory FGMM 90smk Valkyrie.
Next box arrived, ammo and mags...
Here are some comparisons, the loaded cartridge measures 2.248".
From the top down.
69 TMK
77 TMK
90 SMK
80 A-Max
75 A-Max
PRI 15 round mag, all steel and welded. A quick measurement suggests a COAL of 2.305ish
Factory Hornady 6.5 Grendel with 123 ELD vs Factory FGMM 90smk Valkyrie.
I bet the Valk pushing the 77gr TMKs is going to be a beast. I've completely halted all my .223 projects till we see how the Valk pans out.. Due to the traction it's already gained it could easily phase out the .223 if it performs with the 55gr-90gr pills.
I had the same thoughts. I reckon as long as 223 can be had for .20ish cents a shot, I think it will stay around for a while. But for handloaders and LR types I see little reason to remain with the .223... it will be interesting to watch, especially how it works out in shorter barrels... makes me wonder if there isn't more to the story back at Federal/Lake City.
With 69-77gr ammo, it would be a really interesting for under 600 yard matches. Warp speed, low drop, a balance of speed and BC to beat the wind.
I finally got to shoot mine today. Xcaliber 1-7 20". Fgmm 90s averaged 2645fps over a magnetospeed. 60s averaged 3275fps. 60s shot about .75-8" and 90s shot over an inch.... Looks like I'll be doing some reloading. I think I can get some 50-55gr bullets moving alot quicker for dogs. I need a reason to ditch my 20 practical and those speeds and accuracy won't cut it. Also gonna try some 75gr bullets that should move alot quicker for having some longer fun.
No, just straight stainless. They did my 20 prac and it shoots 1/2 moa, so im not too worried about it's potential. Good to know about Alliant. I was going to play with the hodgdon data for the 22 nosler to start. Hoping varget with the 75s can produce good results.
Got this Email today:
"Dear JP customer,
If you are receiving this email, it means your current order for one of our JP Supermatch™ barrels in .224 Valkyrie is eligible for fulfilment in our first production run. But, because of the unforeseen complications of developing barrels for a brand new caliber like this, we wanted to contact you before completing your order.
After final testing of these barrels, we have discovered that accuracy specific to 90gr. Sierra Match King and the 90gr. Fusion hunting ammo is only mediocre. These results are not up to the JP standard, and as such, we cannot honor our accuracy guarantee with this 90gr. ammunition.
However, the Federal varmint load using the 60gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip and our personal test loads using 77gr. Sierra Tipped Match Kings shot well from these barrels. With the 77gr. Tipped Match Kings, we achieved maximum velocities in the 3000 ft/s range. This compromise of utilizing lighter projectiles with much higher MV and slightly lower BC may actually result in higher hit probabilities within the effective range of the cartridge. This is particularly the case with unknown distance targets.
At this point, we want to offer you the choice of confirming your order and receiving one of these first JP .224 Valkyrie barrels. Alternately, you may opt to wait for our next run of barrels with further design changes to improve the performance of the 90gr. bullets. The choice comes down to your choice of application and ammo.
Please respond to this email with your preference.
If you choose to wait, your order will still be fulfilled in the order it was received as soon as the new barrels arrive and are tested. If you choose to wait, we expect to ship your order sometime in May.
Sincerely,
JP Customer service team"
Honestly I'm not surprised, and I'm glad they are doing due diligence before releasing their barrels. I haven't seen anything impressive from the 1-7 twist barrels and 90 grain bullets from other barrels that are out. It may be chamber dimensions as well, but either way, glad they are working on it. I have opted to wait as I am in no hurry.
I did inquire to see if they have tested 80 grain class bullets. Ballistically they seem to have an advantage over the 90s at most distances.
"Dear JP customer,
If you are receiving this email, it means your current order for one of our JP Supermatch™ barrels in .224 Valkyrie is eligible for fulfilment in our first production run. But, because of the unforeseen complications of developing barrels for a brand new caliber like this, we wanted to contact you before completing your order.
After final testing of these barrels, we have discovered that accuracy specific to 90gr. Sierra Match King and the 90gr. Fusion hunting ammo is only mediocre. These results are not up to the JP standard, and as such, we cannot honor our accuracy guarantee with this 90gr. ammunition.
However, the Federal varmint load using the 60gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip and our personal test loads using 77gr. Sierra Tipped Match Kings shot well from these barrels. With the 77gr. Tipped Match Kings, we achieved maximum velocities in the 3000 ft/s range. This compromise of utilizing lighter projectiles with much higher MV and slightly lower BC may actually result in higher hit probabilities within the effective range of the cartridge. This is particularly the case with unknown distance targets.
At this point, we want to offer you the choice of confirming your order and receiving one of these first JP .224 Valkyrie barrels. Alternately, you may opt to wait for our next run of barrels with further design changes to improve the performance of the 90gr. bullets. The choice comes down to your choice of application and ammo.
Please respond to this email with your preference.
If you choose to wait, your order will still be fulfilled in the order it was received as soon as the new barrels arrive and are tested. If you choose to wait, we expect to ship your order sometime in May.
Sincerely,
JP Customer service team"
Honestly I'm not surprised, and I'm glad they are doing due diligence before releasing their barrels. I haven't seen anything impressive from the 1-7 twist barrels and 90 grain bullets from other barrels that are out. It may be chamber dimensions as well, but either way, glad they are working on it. I have opted to wait as I am in no hurry.
I did inquire to see if they have tested 80 grain class bullets. Ballistically they seem to have an advantage over the 90s at most distances.
The 80 ELD at like 2850 matches the 90 smk at 2700, but the valk should be able to push it close to 3k according to QL. (I believe those numbers because I have shot the 80 ELD out of a 223 at 2.300" and got 2875 out of an 18" barrel)
And this is why every Semi I own is either made by JP or composed of their parts...
I've tested 4 different 26" 223's by Bartlein, Shilen, Criterion, Mullerworks and soon Kreiger. I would love to see your chrono numbers shooting 80 ELD's out of an 18" barrel at 2875 in a 223 cause I don't believe it...
im.getting 2850 with 80's out of 4 differenr 26" 223's and it's within a few fps in every one of these barrels. 24.6g Varget which is on the higher side and 2.5" coal 80 Amax and 80 ELD. Not sure how your getting higher velocity out of a barrel 8" shorter and the bullet jammed down in the case 0.2" farther than me taking up that extra case capacity.
Actual numbers
Last edited:
You do know JP doesn't make any of their parts in house right? they are all farmed out.
I don't think that's true of everything..but no matter, whatever or however they work their magic, they are the best in the industry...IMO
I'm sure a quick email will clear up any speculation, as stated above, it's clear they have the highest of integrity.
Last edited by a moderator:
Oh its very true, and I know exactly who makes the parts for them
They also make bolts for Rubber City and the likes of others.There's a reason Frank White told me RCA bolts are the most consistent bolts he's seen in a while from bolt to bolt and he's not the only one saying that. I never said JP makes a bad product, Im just saying they arent the only game in town for equal quality for cheaper.
Feel free to send them any email you want, my info is solid and came right from the horses mouth.
Last edited:
I've tested 4 different 26" 223's by Bartlein, Shilen, Criterion, Mullerworks and soon Kreiger. I would love to see your chrono numbers shooting 80 ELD's out of an 18" barrel at 2875 in a 223 cause I don't believe it...
im.getting 2850 with 80's out of 4 differenr 26" 223's and it's within a few fps in every one of these barrels. 24.6g Varget which is on the higher side and 2.5" coal 80 Amax and 80 ELD. Not sure how your getting higher velocity out of a barrel 8" shorter and the bullet jammed down in the case 0.2" farther than me taking up that extra case capacity.
Actual numbers
I was in the neighborhood of 25 gr of 8208 in an LC case and I can add a correction this was out of my 20" barreled AR, but that isn't a significant change.
!!!
I'm seeing pressure signs with 23.3 grains of 8208 and a 77grain loaded to 2.300" out of my AR. 25.0 grains and a much longer 80 eld seems crazy.
I'm seeing pressure signs with 23.3 grains of 8208 and a 77grain loaded to 2.300" out of my AR. 25.0 grains and a much longer 80 eld seems crazy.
Was getting some ejector mark north of 24.5, but no swipes or anything else like that. (I think if I remember correctly QL put that load at like ~75ksi)
My standard load with 75 BTHP is 23.6 gr of 8208 at 2.255" (every 223 gun I or friends have shoots this load really well)
That barrel in general might just be really fast, too bad it shoots like crap, so it is getting replaced.
25g in a 223 AR15 with 80's at 2.3" and you didnt blow your damn face off? That load was also highly compressed. This is straight nonsense talk.
23.2-23.6g of 8208 with 75/77gr pills in an AR15 is a known node for pretty much every rifle. That doesnt have a single thing to do with you claiming your shooting 25g of 8208 with 80's in a now 20" AR15 and arent blowing primer pockets straight out instantly. How do I know this, because Ive loaded 10's of thousands of 77's with 8208 in AR's. Above 24g primer pockets are gone after just 2 or 3 reloads.
So even if you did do something so stupid as to cram 25g of 8208 into a 223 case and jam a 80 ELD way down into that case to get 2.3" coal, your above statement is very misleading saying you get 2875 from a 18 (20") AR15 with 80's because I assure you NOBODY does that or gets that. Why, because its extremely unsafe and would trash brass instantly. Let alone put you at risk as well.
23.2-23.6g of 8208 with 75/77gr pills in an AR15 is a known node for pretty much every rifle. That doesnt have a single thing to do with you claiming your shooting 25g of 8208 with 80's in a now 20" AR15 and arent blowing primer pockets straight out instantly. How do I know this, because Ive loaded 10's of thousands of 77's with 8208 in AR's. Above 24g primer pockets are gone after just 2 or 3 reloads.
So even if you did do something so stupid as to cram 25g of 8208 into a 223 case and jam a 80 ELD way down into that case to get 2.3" coal, your above statement is very misleading saying you get 2875 from a 18 (20") AR15 with 80's because I assure you NOBODY does that or gets that. Why, because its extremely unsafe and would trash brass instantly. Let alone put you at risk as well.
Similar threads
