Van Orden Winchester M-70 's

[kuparj]

Thought I would share with you two Van Orden Winchester Model 70's.

The top rifle, serial number 270,315 is a USMC rifle. It was sent to the Quartermaster - Training and Indoctrination Command, Quantico, VA on 2 August 1954. The correct nomenclature for this rifle is: Rifle, cal 30-06 Special Target.

The bottom rifle, serial number 335,320 is an Army rifle. It was sent to to the U.S. Army Rifle Team, 12 August 1955. The correct nomenclature for this rifle is: Winchester M70 30-06 Sniper (Special Target)

Enjoy!

 

[bildoe308]

Very Impressive Sir!

 

[Random Guy]

Thanks for the pics, those are nice documented Van Ordens. Those rifles were considered really superior against basically all other domestic competitors in the early to late 1950s. I believe an early Van Orden M70 Special Target was used to win the Camp Perry National Matches in 1952 and 1953. Attached is a 1954 ad re the M70 at Camp Perry.

The 2nd pic is Capt William Brophy in Korea circa 1952 with a privately-owned Model 70 'Bull rifle' in 30-06, along with a 2" objective Unertl 10x scope. As far as I an tell, that particular rifle may have been the first documented use of a sniper rifle successfully used in combat for multiple 1,000+ yard engagements. The Army didn't adopt the M70 of course, but I think his "one-man campaign" might have helped others understand that a match-quality rifle with match ammo, a good optic, and a well-trained soldier, can be an effective sniper at ranges much further than previously understood or appreciated. My 2cts.

 

[RTH1800]

I thought Brophy’s bull gun was 300 H&H? Could be wrong. Have not read that in many years.

 

[Random Guy]

Brophy's M70 was noted as 30-06 in various books. I don't think the 300 H&H was ever used in combat, but I thought I read somewhere that a few long-range (ie 1000 yd) M70 target rifles were apparently made in that caliber back in the 1950s (or early 1960s) Source of attached pics #2 & 3: Peter Senich, The Pictorial History of U.S. Sniping (1980), pages 166-177. I wish I had a nice M70 bull gun in 30-06, but they are rare and pricey.

 

[RTH1800]

I once had two 300 H&H bull guns unfired in the shipping crates.

 

[Random Guy]

Wow, that was a neat find. The only reference I recall at the moment for the 300 H&H is on page 88 of Peter Senich's book, The One Round War:
Caption of a line diagram of a rifle with just a rear sight block on barrel noted : An Army technical manual illustration (1963) of a "Rifle, Caliber .300 H&H Magnum" Model 70 Winchester Bull Gun (28-inch barrel). (U.S. Army). Others may know more, but that's about all I have read re a pre-64 in 300 H&H magnum.

 

[Lange Carabine]

Pretty sure Brophy's bull gun was a 300 H&H. A grand old cartridge the 300 H&H. An inherently accurate and popular round for 1000yd matches back in the day. IIRC, Carlos Hathcock used it (and probably a Winchester bull gun too) to win the 1965 Wimbledon Cup match. It faded into obscurity after the .300 Win Mag came out in the 60's.
Here's my 1957 Winchester M70 30-06 Target, no hits on the Van Orden list but U.S. Property marked.

 

[kuparj]

I wish I could get into the NRA archives. I wonder if they kept serial numbers of the rifles used in the matches. When I spoke to Frank Mallory many years ago, he thought he had serial numbers of the USMC rifles used in the 1954 National Matches. Unfortunately, I never followed up with him.

 

[Random Guy]

Pretty sure Brophy's bull gun was a 300 H&H

Well, Peter Senich interviewed Col. Brophy a couple of times in the 1980s for his books, and Bophy showed him pics of the M70 bull gun he took to Korea and told Senich it was a 30-06. The M70 bull gun in 30-06 is described in Senech's book, The Complete Book of U.S. Sniping, pages 135-139. The Preface and Acknowledgement of Senich's book, The Long-Range War (1993) was dedicated to William Brophy, who passed in 1991. The picture I show of him using the M70 in 1952 in Korea is from the "Brophy Collection". In other words, all the evidence suggests that Brophy took a 30-06 bull gun to Korea, and that's what the pics show too (see the size of the cartridge in pic 3 of post #5 - that was the rife that Brophy took..sure looks like a 30-06 and not a 300 H&H magnum...Just say'n.)

 

[deltawiskey]

Gorgeous rifles!!
I can't imagine being lucky enough to own one Van Orden much less two!
DW

 

[Lange Carabine]

Well I reckon you're right. After looking through my copies of Senich's books I dont honestly know where I got the idea Brophy's rifle was a .300. Too many birthdays and bumps on the noggin...

 

[pmclaine]

The stock on that Army rifle looks almost like laminate the grain is so straight.

Sure its not "fancy figure" but strength has a beauty all its own.

 

[m1marty]

Here is 335,339. USART with, of all things, a USMC documented Lyman STS 12x on top

 

[kuparj]

When pmclaine mentioned the tightness of the grain on the USART rifle, I decided to look at a spare Van Orden stock that I have. The walnut is dense and the grain is relatively straight. What surprised me was that I looked at the forward receiver area and it was glass bedded. It also looks like it was further hand bedded forward of the recoil lug. I know USMC Win 70's used in VN where glass bedded. But, most sources indicated these rifles where from the WW II serial number range procurement range. This stock does not have the clover leaf tang that would be in that group. Any thoughts?

 

[Lange Carabine]

Mine is bedded too. Assume it was done in service.

 

[Skunk]

The inlet in mine looks identical to that one. 338300

 

[Random Guy]

I decided to look at a spare Van Orden stock that I have. The walnut is dense and the grain is relatively straight. What surprised me was that I looked at the forward receiver area and it was glass bedded

Here's a 1953 Van Orden that came with two Marksman stocks. (its 3 digits away from Brophy's Van Orden). The lighter colored stock had been sanded slightly for a thinner profile. The bedding shown is what I think Van Orden did once he received them from WRA. My local gunsmith said it was likely an "early Accuglass type clear bedding, 1950s type bedding." It was very well done, IMO. I ended up buying a 1955 era 308 Featherweight hunting rifle for a nice price, and built a USMC replica sniper rifle around that extra Marksman stock. I put a Unertl 10x on it in 2018, as seen in last pics. That's my 2cts re vintage Van Orden bedding material.

 

[Shootnwrench]

Now this is a thread I can get into . Nice sticks gentleman.

 

[cplnorton]

I cleaned out all the Marine docs at the National Archives and also even at Quantico at the history Division. There isn't any of the M70 serials in there. Even the Nam docs don't list them.

But all the Nam M70 snipers came from Quantico, I have the docs. There wasn't very many of them.

The Army didn't use any of the M70's, other than private purchase Commercial rifles they bought at the beginning of the Vietnam War. I have the purchase orders, but I want to say like 1964 but I didn't go back and look. But they weren't M70 target rifles, these were straight commercial rifles. These were the only M70's used by the ARmy as snipers.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Thanks for the pics, those are nice documented Van Ordens. Those rifles were considered really superior against basically all other domestic competitors in the early to late 1950s. I believe an early Van Orden M70 Special Target was used to win the Camp Perry National Matches in 1952 and 1953. Attached is a 1954 ad re the M70 at Camp Perry.

The 2nd pic is Capt William Brophy in Korea circa 1952 with a privately-owned Model 70 'Bull rifle' in 30-06, along with a 2" objective Unertl 10x scope. As far as I an tell, that particular rifle may have been the first documented use of a sniper rifle successfully used in combat for multiple 1,000+ yard engagements. The Army didn't adopt the M70 of course, but I think his "one-man campaign" might have helped others understand that a match-quality rifle with match ammo, a good optic, and a well-trained soldier, can be an effective sniper at ranges much further than previously understood or appreciated. My 2cts.

Was gonna ask if Brophy's was a Van Orden. Did Brophy have any other snipers under his command or that he trained? Or was he the only one?

 

[Longshot231]

Brophy's M70 was noted as 30-06 in various books. I don't think the 300 H&H was ever used in combat, but I thought I read somewhere that a few long-range (ie 1000 yd) M70 target rifles were apparently made in that caliber back in the 1950s (or early 1960s) Source of attached pics #2 & 3: Peter Senich, The Pictorial History of U.S. Sniping (1980), pages 166-177. I wish I had a nice M70 bull gun in 30-06, but they are rare and pricey.

This is my Bull Gun.

 

[kuparj]

Was gonna ask if Brophy's was a Van Orden. Did Brophy have any other snipers under his command or that he trained? Or was he the only one?

Bill did have a Van Orden, Serial Number 254544, delivered 08/1953. I will have to go back in the records to see what model that was. The rifle he used in Korea was, in all likelihood, purchased from Winchester. It will take me a few days to dig out the records.

 

[kuparj]

"The bottom rifle, serial number 335,320 is an Army rifle. It was sent to to the U.S. Army Rifle Team, 12 August 1955. The correct nomenclature for this rifle is: Winchester M70 30-06 Sniper (Special Target)"

Getting one of these is my grail gun. I have seen the partial list of Van Orden guns floating around, like in the Chandler book(s), but how do you find the info on the guns shipped to the US Army? One of those are what I'd really like if my prayers could be answered. Is ther a more complete soucre for the Van Orden serial numnbers than the Chandler bok, DFA? Great post. Thanks!

Several years ago I had the opportunity to copy the build cards Evaluators created for each rifle. Each card showed order date, model number, serial number, purchaser, address shipped to, shipped date, etc.

 

[Random Guy]

Was gonna ask if Brophy's was a Van Orden. Did Brophy have any other snipers under his command or that he trained? Or was he the only one?

Brophy's 'Bull gun' he used in 1952 was reportedly a privately owned rifle and not a Van Orden. As noted, Brophy and many others bought Van Orden's in 1953. To the best of my knowledge, Van Orden did not sell the Bull guns, but I have not seen the build card records like kuparj has, so that's my understanding. As for Capt Brophy, he was indeed a "one-man show" in Korea, as described in Senich's book. (Note: there was no such thing as any formal US Army sniper training programs in the 1950s. That did not come about until the late 1960s w/ TC 23-14, which was dated October 1969).

 

[domdoc]

Here's a 1953 Van Orden that came with two Marksman stocks. (its 3 digits away from Brophy's Van Orden). The lighter colored stock had been sanded slightly for a thinner profile. The bedding shown is what I think Van Orden did once he received them from WRA. My local gunsmith said it was likely an "early Accuglass type clear bedding, 1950s type bedding." It was very well done, IMO. I ended up buying a 1955 era 308 Featherweight hunting rifle for a nice price, and built a USMC replica sniper rifle around that extra Marksman stock. I put a Unertl 10x on it in 2018, as seen in last pics. That's my 2cts re vintage Van Orden bedding material.

On the bottom of the list of shipped rifles is one for Carl Byas. I shot with Carl in Temple, TX in the '70s. Very smooth bolt running, and solid position. And like most hipower shooters, a genuinely nice guy.

 

[Longshot231]

You would think that the new Winchester Repeating Arms company would make reproduction target rifles and bull guns. There would be a market for it.

 

[domdoc]

Those receivers are not exactly the same as what's being produced now. They have clip slots, and the trigger is a design that enables adjustment through the tang, for pull weight and overtravel. Guys talked above about straight-grain walnut in the samples from the '50s, but those had tight, straight grain all the way through the '70s on their Ultramatch rifles. Also, hammered forged barrels. Someone told me Remington now has the barrel-making machines Winchester used. Demand for this type of rifle is very diminished, due to the newer designs of bolt actions, and the popularity of the AR platform. The iron sights these used are no longer required, and those sights are only optimal for decimal targets with round bullseyes.

 

[Longshot231]

Those receivers are not exactly the same as what's being produced now. They have clip slots, and the trigger is a design that enables adjustment through the tang, for pull weight and overtravel. Guys talked above about straight-grain walnut in the samples from the '50s, but those had tight, straight grain all the way through the '70s on their Ultramatch rifles. Also, hammered forged barrels. Someone told me Remington now has the barrel-making machines Winchester used. Demand for this type of rifle is very diminished, due to the newer designs of bolt actions, and the popularity of the AR platform. The iron sights these used are no longer required, and those sights are only optimal for decimal targets with round bullseyes.

That is so true but there's something special about getting behind a classic rifle which is the most fun that you could have with your clothes on.

I love shooting my Bull Gun but don't want to wear out that barrel. On the other hand, either I shoot it or nobody will. Or... either I shoot it or some body else will.

 

[kuparj]

Here is the information I have for Bill Brophy's Van Orden Rifle:

Serial Number: 254544
Win 70 Sniper SS
Model: G7000C .30-06
Ordered: 8 January 1953
Delivered: 22 August 1953

William S. Brophy, Capt. USA, 01548171
Small Arms R&D
APG, Aberdeen, Maryland

The Model number above is the Winchester Model number. I have not seen this model number in my records. I have G7044C- Model 70 Target/Medium Weight Barrel - .30 Govt. M/06; and G7992C - Model 70 Bull Gun, .30 Govt. M/06

Best Regards,

John K.

 

[Random Guy]

Here is the information I have for Bill Brophy's Van Orden Rifle:

Thanks for that info. If it helps, attached is a picture of Brophy's rifle as noted above (same serial #), as seen in Peter Senich's book, The One-Round War (pg 99). Here's my theory re Winchester Model # of that era:

Model: G7000C .30-06 = Uncheckered sporter stock (special ordered by Van Orden, as they typically came with checkering)
Model G7044C- Model 70 Target/Medium Weight Barrel - .30 Govt. M/06 = Likely the same as above but with the heavier Marksman stock.
Model G7992C - Model 70 Bull Gun, .30 Govt. M/06 = Heavy target stock w/ 28" bull barrel, like Longshot 231's super neat rifle.
That's about all I know.

 

[Skunk]

I've got a Van Orden I really don't even like! Haha. I think those Bull Guns are sexy though...

 

[Longshot231]

 

[deltawiskey]

I've got a Van Orden I really don't even like! Haha. I think those Bull Guns are sexy though...

I can't imagine owning a Van Orden and not liking it... thats a grail rifle
The bull guns are sexy!
DW

 

[Longshot231]

I can't imagine owning a Van Orden and not liking it... thats a grail rifle
The bull guns are sexy!
DW

Take off your hat when you say that.

 

[Skunk]

I can't imagine owning a Van Orden and not liking it... thats a grail rifle
The bull guns are sexy!
DW

I know.... It's a nice rifle. Great shape and shoots beautifully, too. But, it just doesn't speak to me. Can't explain it, I've just never loved it.

 

[kuparj]

While doing some research on Bill Brophys Win 70 , I wanted to know what the earliest recorded serial numbers for Van Orden rifles. The earliest I found, and it surprised me on the serial number range, is 40,933 and 45,461. 40,933 appears to be a Win 70 with a sporter stock and lyman sight. 45,461 appears to be a Win 70 "Special", probably with the Marksman stock.

What appears to be even more interesting is that they were sold to two priest's; Fr. W.R. Walsh, Lt. Col., USMC, Hq. USMC Washngton, D.C. and, Fr. Mark Billing, CWO, USMC, MCS Quantico, VA. I am assuming "Fr." signify s "Father".

Interesting to say the least.

 

[pmclaine]

Chaplains in USMC come from the Navy.

They save Marine souls while the Marines send souls to God.

W.R. Walsh is probably Walter Walsh.

Google him and be amazed.

Find that rifle and its worth its weight in Gold.

 

[kuparj]

Chaplains in USMC come from the Navy.

They save Marine souls while the Marines send souls to God.

W.R. Walsh is probably Walter Walsh.

Google him and be amazed.

Find that rifle and its worth its weight in Gold.

I didn't make the connection with Walter Walsh. So, any idea what the Fr. stands for ? BTW, in the records I did come across Walter Walsh along with many other great marksmen.

Thanks!

 

[RTH1800]

More odd is those clearly pre war rifles being sold in the 50’s.

 

[pmclaine]

I didn't make the connection with Walter Walsh. So, any idea what the Fr. stands for ? BTW, in the records I did come across Walter Walsh along with many other great marksmen.

Thanks!

I dont know what "FR" indicates but a fine gentleman @cplnorton has done some study on these rifles, he may have some info.

Either way he may have seen your documents before or he would be interested in your documents if he has not seen them.

 

[GBMaryland]

The US Army even used M70s in 375 H&H for special purposes as one offs. Heh. i guess they really wanted something dead...

 

[draftee]

GBMaryland didn't mean to kill the thread. He welcomes comments. I was sitting with GB at GB's gun club today when this thread came up in discussion. I mentioned that a fellow club member owned a nice Chandler documented sporter style Van Orden sniper. He was surprised. I then mentioned that I owned two documented Van Orden snipers. He was triple surprised since we are generally a shotgun club. We computer accessed a picture of two of our Van Orden guns for GBMaryland that we photographed at the club a few months ago. I think we have a Van Orden convert.

 

[GBMaryland]

 

[GBMaryland]

Send pictures posted above… Sent by another club member

 

[deltawiskey]

Send pictures posted above… Sent by another club member

Oh my! Awesome!!
DW

 

[deltawiskey]

I couldn't find one, so I found an old beat up Model 70 and made a tribute rifle with it... someday maybe I will be lucky enough to get my hands on a Van Orden.

 

[GBMaryland]

according to the draftee, there were civilian versions that were made that were copies of the military versions were and sporters that were made to be like them.

apparently it wasn’t altogether unheard of to have a Lyman scope on the rifle as well in the military versions.

 

[kuparj]

I have a very good friend that knows the Walsh family very well. He checked with Walter, Jr. regarding his fathers Van Ordens. The early Van Ordens are gone, but the family still has a .243 cal Van Orden.

 

[kuparj]

according to the draftee, there were civilian versions that were made that were copies of the military versions were and sporters that were made to be like them.

apparently it wasn’t altogether unheard of to have a Lyman scope on the rifle as well in the military versions.

The majority of the Military purchased rifles should have the U.S. Property etched ( electro-penciled) on the left side of the receiver ("shooters left"}