Velocity different on follow up after ladder test

[LC 6.5 Shooter]

Ran a 10 shot ladder in .2g increases from 42g -43.8g over the magneto with Rl 16 in prime brass 147eld cci br4 primers. I already have a h4350 load but wanted to experiment with rl16. There were 4 potential velocity nodes that were within 8 f/s or less of each other. So I loaded up 4 loads (6 of each) using the .1 grain between the 2 nodes. Every single one was 20f/s faster than the velocity I got using the ladder test. Im thinking my Rcbs chargemaster likes to act stupid. Because I noticed with my normal load will flucuate with no changes at all from 2707 then next time it will be 2725

 

[parkerg31]

I actually noticed that same thing with a ladder test last weekend. Im using a beam scale so I know its accurate. Most of my loads were 10-20 fps faster the next day with the same charges. The only thing I attributed it to was 40 vs 77 degrees the next day. The nodes were still good with low S.Ds but the velocities just changed. Interested in why as well

 

[LC 6.5 Shooter]

My temperature difference was only around 10 degrees

 

[RTH1800]

Generally, one FPS per degree will not be far off.

 

[260284]

I only had a couple of fps difference with Re16 from 28-92 degrees. Here is some good info on how stable it usually is.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/03/tyler-kee/powder-review-alliant-rl-16/

They came up with 21 fps difference from 20 to 120 degrees.

 

[RTH1800]

I thought all RL powders were double based?

 

[260284]

I thought all RL powders were double based?

RADFORD, Virginia – August 18, 2016 – Alliant Powder, a leading manufacturer of smokeless powders, offers consistent long-range accuracy across temperature extremes with the release of its new Reloder 16 rifle powder. Shipments of Reloder 16 are being delivered to dealers now.

Reloder 16 utilizes TZ technology, which manipulates the response of the propellant and resists the natural tendency to generate more pressure at higher temperatures and less pressure at lower temperatures. As a result, Reloder 16, similar to Reloder 23and AR Comp, offers world-class temperature stability. The powder has excellent lot-to-lot consistency and contains a proprietary de-coppering additive without any DNT or DBP.

The new powder is ideal for traditional hunting cartridges, such as 30-06 Spring. and 270 Win., as well as 6.5mm target loads and tactical applications wherein temperature stability is required.

 

[260284]

Re23 and Re26 similar.

 

[RTH1800]

Thanks. I normally do not place too much stock in advertisement hype.

Might be true.

 

[parkerg31]

I forgot to add that I was using 4350 not RL16 but same concept

 

[260284]

I have found it to be true with Re16. I have about 1000 rounds on my 6.5 Creedmoor barrel with it. Developed a load when it was mid 20s and shot it at over 100 degrees last summer. The only time I showed any pressure was due to the carbon ring that is common with it. Changed my cleaning habits and haven't had it again. Getting 2819 fps with Peterson brass, 41.4grs of Re16, CCI 450s.

 

[RTH1800]

Excellent. Thanks.

 

[parkerg31]

I have found it to be true with Re16. I have about 1000 rounds on my 6.5 Creedmoor barrel with it. Developed a load when it was mid 20s and shot it at over 100 degrees last summer. The only time I showed any pressure was due to the carbon ring that is common with it. Changed my cleaning habits and haven't had it again. Getting 2819 fps with Peterson brass, 41.4grs of Re16, CCI 450s.

How often are you cleaning now?

 

[47guy]

I only had a couple of fps difference with Re16 from 28-92 degrees. Here is some good info on how stable it usually is.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/03/tyler-kee/powder-review-alliant-rl-16/

They came up with 21 fps difference from 20 to 120 degrees.

have you actually tested this yourself? not being a smart ass real question....i know not the same but i was thinking about trying some RL-15 in my BRX....i did not measure temps but ammo outside in 25-30degs and one on the heater vent in my trucks for about 5-7mins...116fps spread.

 

[47guy]

I thought all RL powders were double based?

they are.

 

[47guy]

to the guys having velocity jumps...are you guys shooting new barrels or recently cleaned barrels?
also you guys running the RL powders they are dirty so IMO you need to cut your cleaning routine in half or so...if you were cleaning every 400 rounds id sugest you cut that to 200...ive shot a LOT of RL powders and they run very dirty in my rifles.

 

[LC 6.5 Shooter]

to the guys having velocity jumps...are you guys shooting new barrels or recently cleaned barrels?
also you guys running the RL powders they are dirty so IMO you need to cut your cleaning routine in half or so...if you were cleaning every 400 rounds id sugest you cut that to 200...ive shot a LOT of RL powders and they run very dirty in my rifles.

When I ran the test was at ~150 rounds from previous cleaning (using h4350). Barrel had around 700 rounds down it. I cleaned the rifle after this test a yes it was very dirty. Took quite a few more patches to clean up. Gonna reshoot a few of the loads on a clean barrel see what happens.

 

[260284]

have you actually tested this yourself? not being a smart ass real question....i know not the same but i was thinking about trying some RL-15 in my BRX....i did not measure temps but ammo outside in 25-30degs and one on the heater vent in my trucks for about 5-7mins...116fps spread.

Re15 and Re16 are completely different as far as temp stability. Look at Alliant's website and they do not claim any temp stability for Re15. In my first sentence, I stated my experience with Re16 from 28-92 and in another post I said I shot the same load in a match where it hit 104. Re15 is know to be very temp unstable.

 

[260284]

How often are you cleaning now?

Every 250-350 rounds. I pay a lot of attention to the throat. I was using patch out wipe out and the carbon was still there. I would have clean patches and then scrub the throat with CLR and it 3-4 patches would be black. I just got some BoreTech Eliminator and their carbon remover. I am going to try it and see how it works compared to CLR.

 

[260284]

have you actually tested this yourself? not being a smart ass real question....i know not the same but i was thinking about trying some RL-15 in my BRX....i did not measure temps but ammo outside in 25-30degs and one on the heater vent in my trucks for about 5-7mins...116fps spread.

Try H4895 in your BRX. I am working up a load with it in a new gun in 22BR. Shot a ladder last night and got 3004 fps with 26.8 grains, Lapua brass, Tula primer, and 88gr ELDM. Several guys using it in the 6 BRa too.

I believe Jake Vibbert runs IMR4166 in his BRX.

 

[47guy]

Re15 and Re16 are completely different as far as temp stability. Look at Alliant's website and they do not claim any temp stability for Re15. In my first sentence, I stated my experience with Re16 from 28-92 and in another post I said I shot the same load in a match where it hit 104. Re15 is know to be very temp unstable.

Yes I know they are that’s why I said “not the same but”

Interesting with your temp differences and no pressure issues...I’m going to borrow a little from my buddy and run a test myself and see what happens

 

[47guy]

Try H4895 in your BRX. I am working up a load with it in a new gun in 22BR. Shot a ladder last night and got 3004 fps with 26.8 grains, Lapua brass, Tula primer, and 88gr ELDM. Several guys using it in the 6 BRa too.

I believe Jake Vibbert runs IMR4166 in his BRX.

Only thing I’ve seen with 4895 is hitting pressure sooner than varget but I may try it now I’m running HBN

Also curious to hear how your brass holds up....I was at 2980 108g Berger in my BRX and had rings at the base.

 

[Subwrx300]

Had the same thing happen to me yesterday. I'm pretty sure it has to do with scale drift if you leave the pan on the scale (zeroing but not calibrating before throwing charges).

Will be able to confirm in next hour; I'm going to range to test identical load in same brass. This time a calibrated scale before charging. Prior set I didn't but the original load (and a few subsequent loads) I did calibration prior to charging.

Only change is calibration. Temps are virtually identical and ammo has been left outside to confirm temp is stabilized to outside.

 

[47guy]

what scale are you using?

 

[Subwrx300]

what scale are you using?

If asking me, RCBS 1500 auto trickler. I've suspected some drift in linearity for some time now. If you leave the pan on the tray say overnight (~150gr weight), it begins to read the same charge slightly lighter and begins to throw heavy charges. Both will read say 41.7 but it will actually be closer to 42 or so grains.

I've confirmed a load using 41.7gr H4350 using my Red lot of brass multiple times and it's been 2762 avg over 4 sessions with 10-20rounds chronoed each time using Labradar.

Yesterday a new test batch shot 2790avg which is WAYYYY faster. Then I shot a few of the prior batch and they still clocked right at 2760 right after shooting a series of faster rounds. 100% sure all have been 41.7 on the RCBS but something changed (not the barrel).

 

[47guy]

If asking me, RCBS 1500 auto trickler. I've suspected some drift in linearity for some time now. If you leave the pan on the tray (~150gr weight) it begins to read the same charge slightly lighter and begins to throw heavy charges. Both will read say 41.7 but it will actually be closer to 42 or so grains.

I've confirmed a load using 41.7gr H4350 using my Red lot of brass multiple times and it's been 2762 avg over 4 sessions with 10-20rounds chronoed each time using Labradar.

Yesterday a new test batch shot 2790avg which is WAYYYY faster. Then I shot a few of the prior batch and they still clocked right at 2760 right after shooting a series of faster rounds. 100% sure all have been 41.7 on the RCBS but something changed (not the barrel).

Yes I was asking you....this was why I got rid of the CM I had...it would throw 8-10 good charges then start drifting...easy enough to fix by resetting but a PITA...I had it 3wks and played with it...reprogram,straw ect and never shot a round weighed on it.

Ended up returning it to Cabelas and bought a FX120...I used a Scott Parker beam scale for a long time that is very accurate

 

[260284]

Only thing I’ve seen with 4895 is hitting pressure sooner than varget but I may try it now I’m running HBN

Also curious to hear how your brass holds up....I was at 2980 108g Berger in my BRX and had rings at the base.

I am going to shoot try 26.7, 26.8, 26.9, and 27 based on what I shot yesterday. See what they do at 600.

I had better luck in my 223 with H4895 than Varget. Better velocity and lower SD's. Getting 3025fps out of a factory Tikka Varmint suppressed.

 

[47guy]

Nice!

 

[Subwrx300]

Yes I was asking you....this was why I got rid of the CM I had...it would throw 8-10 good charges then start drifting...easy enough to fix by resetting but a PITA...I had it 3wks and played with it...reprogram,straw ect and never shot a round weighed on it.

Ended up returning it to Cabelas and bought a FX120...I used a Scott Parker beam scale for a long time that is very accurate

Chronoed same load again today (after running calibration) and it ran 2768 which makes sense as it was just a bit warmer than yesterday (10 deg or so.).

So basically, yes, you need to run calibration either every time or never. And pan either needs to stay on tray always or never. But load shot great for 5 shots including cold bore. I screwed up and rebuilt cheek weld on second shot (slightly high left shot).

 

[Milo 2.5]

Re23 and Re26 similar.

No, RL23 has the new ITZ technology, temp stable. Where RL26 is a higher energy powder.

 

[Milo 2.5]

I thought all RL powders were double based?

Not really, I think only Accurate Arms still makes a couple true dual based powders. The confusion comes in the form of spray on coating of nitro glyceride, and an over 10% of total composition is considered high energy. VV N 500 series are one, RL 17, RL 26, RL33 come from Rheinmatall Nitrochemie plant in Germany, not where the other stuff is made, and if all are sprayed, it is minimal. All Norma powders have NG too, no high energy, but their only dual based powder, MRP2 was discontinued 7-8 yrs ago.
In a sense we can call them dual base, but in the true form, they are not.

 

[Gil P.]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, I just wanted to comment that I experience the same thing with H4350 using an FX120i scale. I'm using all the same lots of components.

For instance, 40.1gr is my accuracy load. I've gotten averages from the low 2800s in the winter and just got an average of 2872 yesterday. Ive weighed charges on a beam scale on different days to verify my scale isn't at fault and it's always right we're it should be.

I don't know what the deal is. Maybe the powder is temp sensitive?

Another example with 40.5gr of the same lot of powder, bullets, cases and primers:

57 deg - 2814 fps
93 deg - 2846 fps
And I've recently gotten averages around 2870 fps.

At this point I've stopped caring as long as it shoots good. I'll likely switch powders on my next barrel.