Verge of breakdown

[DumDum]

So I've been a member here for several years and never had the courage or guts or whatever to post or ask anything. I guess you could say I was creeping around similar to FaceBook. Today I'm at my wits end.

Not that I'm trying to impress anyone, as most of you will have many more war stories and initials behind your names, but I'm in federal law enforcement, I've been to numerous instructor schools, and serve on my Agency's SRT. I'm confident in my handgun and rifle skills, but I'm just getting into precision rifle and long range shooting. I have to admit I'm struggling and right now, my precision shooting is like my golf game - I'm either all over the map or I'm dead on. So here's my rant:

It was a great day here in South Dakota for a range day. A humid 78 degrees with a very light breeze. I brought both my bolt and gas guns. Bolt first - first five round string is a solid 3/4 minute grouping but about 1 minute below center. Dial it up and next five round string is perfect. I decide, probably much to my disadvantage, to begin using my gas gun. So here is really where my problems start. I took the hit and purchased an LWRC REPR 20" about year ago and mounted a NightForce NXS scope on it. To date, I've only put 91 rounds through it. Last time at the range, I had a decent session, but my grouping was an average of 1.5 to 2 minutes. I'm thinking, it's a gas gun, but it's also a precision rifle. Today, my CCB was about 1 minute right of zero, but the next four rounds are spread over 3 minutes. I made no adjustments on the optics figuring it's me of course. Next five shot string is the same way. The next five, same problems. I was virtually incapable of putting together what I felt is a decent string to make any adjustments to the optics. The last five shot string gave me a decent group but still about 2 minutes.

I've watched multiple videos from Jacob and LowLight and have read other shooter's having similar problems. I know that online training and reading internet postings is no substitute for formal training, but it's all I've got until I can either convince my current Agency to send me to formal training or I go on my own. The bad thing, as an instructor, I know I'm probably developing bad habits that will need to be broken!

While shooting today I tried everything I could think of - making sure my shoulders are relaxed and square, I'm inline and behind the rifle, my left shoulder particularly is not giving the "sympathetic squeeze", my breathing, etc. All for nothing but frustration. I haven't videotaped my shooting session for self-diagnosis, but I'm looking for ideas that I'm missing to help.

Any advice that the Hide's members can provide can probably talk me off the ledge of frustration!

 

[Graham]

Verge of breakdown

Averaging 1.5 to 2 MOA with a stock gas gun isn't outside the realm of probability. What ammo are you using?

 

[Break Bad]

I shoot at half minute or better with my bolt guns easily...gassers - forget it, entirely different beast. You have to have a very disciplined follow through.

 

[223Rem]

Get rid of the piston system.

 

[pilotguy299]

1. Join FLEOA

2. Have you checked to make sure the scope mounts are secure? One day I spent about 20 rounds chasing shots, only to realize at the end that my scope mount was a just bit loose.

3. What ammo are you using? Is it the same ammo every time?

 

[DumDum]

I'm using Black Hills Ammo 175gr .308 Match. I've used their ammo, and I admit, only their ammo, in my bolt gun so I figured it should be just as good in my gasser! Each rifle (bolt and gas) has a different lot number, so I'm anal about the lot being put through each rifle. Maybe that could be one of a few things that is wrong, the gasser doesn't necessarily like that ammo?!
[MENTION=79618]pilot[/MENTION]guy - already a member! Was the VP for the SD chapter until no one wanted to participate in any meetings or events so we disbanded and back to the mother ship I went!! I've also checked and rechecked my mounts and everything is locked on.

223Rem - I admit I was skeptical at first of the piston system, but I changed my thinking after we were issued LWRC M6G for duty. That shorty was spot on and handled anything and everything I could throw at it! Not to mention cleaning was much easier than my old weapon system!

Here's my thinking - I get super frustrated when I'm trying everything to the best of my abilities and that could be issue 1, I nearly shut down and give up. After thinking and stewing about it until my wife slapped me a few times, I'm wondering if a huge thing is follow through or even severe flinching! Time for some dummy rounds randomly inserted to see that. Guess it gives me an excuse to get out from my behind my desk today for an afternoon of training.

 

[DumDum]

I'm using Black Hills Ammo 175gr .308 Match. I've used their ammo, and I admit, only their ammo, in my bolt gun so I figured it should be just as good in my gasser! Each rifle (bolt and gas) has a different lot number, so I'm anal about the lot being put through each rifle. Maybe that could be one of a few things that is wrong, the gasser doesn't necessarily like that ammo?!

[MENTION=79618]pilot[/MENTION]guy - already a member! Was the VP for the SD chapter until no one wanted to participate in any meetings or events so we disbanded and back to the mother ship I went!! I've also checked and rechecked my mounts and everything is locked on.

223Rem - I admit I was skeptical at first of the piston system, but I changed my thinking after we were issued LWRC M6G for duty. That shorty was spot on and handled anything and everything I could throw at it! Not to mention cleaning was much easier than my old weapon system!

Here's my thinking - I get super frustrated when I'm trying everything to the best of my abilities and that could be issue 1, I nearly shut down and give up. After thinking and stewing about it until my wife slapped me a few times, I'm wondering if a huge thing is follow through or even severe flinching! Time for some dummy rounds randomly inserted to see that. Guess it gives me an excuse to get out from my behind my desk today for an afternoon of training.

 

[Graham]

Don't reset the trigger until the recoil is over.

 

[19Scout77]

Get rid of the REPR and pick up a gas gun that does not suck. Problem solved.

 

[shane45]

Aside from the advice already given, simply try a different ammo. The LWRC just may hate BH. My small experience with BH ammo suggests either the rifle loves it (small group) or hates it (big group) not much in between.

 

[BayouRobert]

I found that my "100 yard woes" all went away as soon as I left 100 yards behind.
Now a new gas gun gets a 50 yard zero, and I go straight to 300...600...beyond.
I never shoot groups up close anymore. In fact, if I make a center of mass cold bore shot
at distance, then I may be done for the day.
If you can string together a 5 or 6 inch 600 yard group, then your cares about your rifles
ability to perform up close disapppear instantly. If you shoot steel, then you can instantly
see what shoots/does not in your AR.
If you have access to mid range distance, I'd buy an IPSC plate and see what happens.
I've had guns that seemed "2 inchers" up close but would wear steel out at distance.

 

[FMJBT]

Trigger reset is a key part of consistency with a semi auto. The release from the disconnector to the sear should be an entirely seperate operation from the trigger pull. I can't comprehend the physics behind this myself, definitely not well enough to offer an explanations other than to say it simply works. I've trained myself to hold the trigger back until after I've spotted my round hit (or miss...) the target through the scope. My consistency went way up after I started doing this. My AR's typically shoot neck and neck with my bolt guns now, although on occasion they will spit out a flyer that causes some head scratching.

 

[shovelstrokeed]

Repr

DumDum,

First off, it ain't a gas gun, it is a piston gun. Lots more stuff moving around in there to mess you up. Piston guns are not for the impatient or easily frustrated.
I know, I own one, 18" in my case. I'm into my 3rd 100 rounds and just getting to know the gun. Typical 100 yd group with mine will have 4 rounds touching and, either the first or the last, (gonna test this weekend) about 7/8" out opening things up to 1" or so.

So far the gun has taught me to put minimum torque on the gun if I expect it to shoot. You gotta be lined up. Trigger pull is actually less important than holding that sucker back until the gun returns from recoil. IF your stock doesn't fit you, you are screwed, fix it. Cheek weld and the ability to maintain it and vision of the target through the shot to impact is all important. That includes recoil management.

My local range typically runs 15 minutes hot and 15 minutes cold and that is enough time for my barrel to change temperature between strings.
My strategy for this weekend is to load 7 in the mag. 2 rounds of bulk pack ball with 5 FGMM 168 g in between. Here's the theory. 1st round of hardball gets the bbl to temp, next 5 are for the group. Last could actually be a snap cap but I have lots of ball so I use that. Why? When I'm only going to clear the gun prior to the range going cold anyway. It is so that the gun goes through the same motions, stripping a round from the magazine, closing and locking the bolt. That's motion and slammin' and bangin' inside the gun, bound to effect consistency which is the name of the game for groups.

I'll let yall know how much crap I'm full of on Monday.

 

[DumDum]

Get rid of the REPR and pick up a gas gun that does not suck. Problem solved.

Scout - I wish it were that easy, but however you look at it, the investment was made and she's here to stay. Unless someone wants to make an offer I can't refuse...lol.

 

[DumDum]

DumDum,

First off, it ain't a gas gun, it is a piston gun.

I'll let yall know how much crap I'm full of on Monday.

You're right, I should have started with the correct terminology, but I'm glad everyone knows the gist of what I'm ranting about!

We'll have to compare notes as I plan to hit the range on Thursday. I hope to incorporate the advice I've received thus far into the next session. Not at all at once, but one piece at a time.

 

[frankythefly]

You need to just focus on all the fundamentals sight picture, breathing, trigger squeeze, and shoot a lot. You have barely shot anything in your LWRC and need to be practicing as much as you can. Don't get discouraged by a few bad groups just shoot. It may help to turn your gas system off and just single fire it. Once you get good with the gas system off shoot it with it on. The LWRC is a great platform, I really like how you can cycle the bolt when shooting subs.

 

[shovelstrokeed]

You know, DumDum, my rifle shows a very distinct preference for FGMM 168g over the 155g battle pack ammo that I got 420 rounds with my gun. It won't hit squat with that military stuff.
Kinda tells me that although the chamber will accept anything that will feed from the mag, and my partial results tell me nothing is wrong with the bbl, I wonder what the throat is like and if these guns are not really persnickety about COAL and jump to the rifling.

All the more reason, I guess, for me to get off my ass and set up a reloading bench. I'm a strange old bird, I'm 71 and been shooting since I was 5. I'll make this gun shoot even if the only thing left of it is a sling swivel.

 

[Name Enough]

I will wade in here with the non swimmers at the shallow end of the pool and share my experiences. I own four LWRC products. Don't let anyone tell you the piston system is responsible for inaccuracy. The piston is not doing anything until after the round has left the chamber. There are high speed videos that will prove me out.
LWRC barrels are CHF polygon rifled. The barrels are also Melonite treated. They last a lot longer than SS or Chrome lined barrels.
You don't have to break these barrels in. After my first range outing I clean the barrel and do a copper treatment. After another 200 rounds I do the copper clean again. After 400 rounds I expect the best accuracy. Then I don't do a copper clean unless my accuracy warrants it.

A gas rifle needs to work itself in and it needs to like itself before it will shoot its best.
I can speak from experience with my M1a rifles.

My LWRC rifles are capable of .75" MOA with hand loaded ammo. This REPR likes the 175 Grain projectile. I shoot Berger bullets.

I shall not claim to be an expert I only know what works for me.
I have never worried about an LWRC being incorrectly assembled. They make fine rifles.

I once had a problem with an LWRC rifle and called the factory. They said no problem if it won't shoot send it back to us and we will check it out. If there is a problem we will fix it and if not we charge you $75. I decided to mount a different optic before I sent it back and sure enough it shot well with a different scope. So there may be a problem with the mounting of the optic. That's where I found my problem.
I will suggest that you may wish to also try a different ammo.
That may solve the problem right there.
For the most part the high end rifles are more capable of shooting tight groups than most shooters.
Good luck with your rifle I am confident you will work it out and get it shooting the way you want.

 

[shovelstrokeed]

NameEnough,

I certainly don't contend that a piston gun doesn't even begin to produce all its monkey motion until, in fact, the bullet has left the barrel. Hell, just look where the gas port is. The motion does effect the shooter though and I think we can all agree that post ignition stuff the shooter does has an effect on the bullet's flight path. Whether it be the bodies various reactions to being smacked in the shoulder and cheek, the gun's tendency to torque and our bodies action against that, the loud noise, something is influencing the bullet, maybe a bit of sub-concious muscle tightening prior to actual ignition. There be some chit goin' on.

I know I have to concentrate as hard as I can to get groups with 3 or 4 shots touching, or even better in a little clump. That doesn't come by forgetting fundamentals. I'm now looking for things that happen differently on the first and last shots of my group, which is why I mentioned the other stuff. As stated, I may be full of crap but I'm gonna have to prove it to my satisfaction first. I've gotten to where I'm a little bit consistent, multiple groups with the same result, cold bore high and a little left, 3 on top of each other, sometimes 4 and then the last shot low and a little right. What I'm trying to do is eliminate what is different about those first and last shots. So far, that is all I've got. Bbl temp and internal reaction within the gun. If there's more, I'll find it. I've got lots of time and lots of ammo.

 

[InkedIan]

I did a little accuracy test awhile back on a dpms 5.56 and a noveske 300blkout upper assembly where I switched the gas systems between a DI and an adams arms GPS. I used quite a few different types of ammo on both uppers and the only parts that were changed were the gas systems and the bolt carriers(not the bolt itself to keep headspace consistant). Across the board on average the Adams arms GPS was 1/2-1" less accurate than the DI system with both uppers/cartridges. With that being said I still have the GPS on my 5.56 because it's not my precision rig and it does have it's advantages. For my precision 308AR I run a DI system and it is a 1/2-3/4" gun at 100yds with 168gr FGMM. Just some food for thought.

 

[bluto77]

I'm using Black Hills Ammo 175gr .308 Match. I've used their ammo, and I admit, only their ammo, in my bolt gun so I figured it should be just as good in my gasser! Each rifle (bolt and gas) has a different lot number, so I'm anal about the lot being put through each rifle. Maybe that could be one of a few things that is wrong, the gasser doesn't necessarily like that ammo?!

Based on everything you've said, I'm betting this is the single largest contributor to your accuracy issues. I was running Black Hills 77gr and 69gr Match ammo in my LaRue OBR 5.56, because the manufacturer said that's what the rifle should like. I'm nowhere near as an accomplished shooter as you, but I was still expecting to get into the MOA'ish range. But I started off north of 2 MOA! I became so frustrated that I started a thread asking for help on this board. I got a ton of good info in it. Keep in mind, the advice was being given to a shooter much newer to all of this than you, so remember that as you ready through it. But there is a lot of talk about ammo in there. Link: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...fles/200222-getting-larue-obr-5-56-group.html I tried out several different types of ammo, and the FGMM 69gr SMK's worked the best. Today I'm in the .75 MOA'ish range. I would look at the ammo before you do anything else.

 

[ArmyJerry]

Put more rounds through it, clean with a pull through otis type system, check optic. I had a similar situation with a DPMS 308, it turned out to be the QD scope mount, replaced with a bolt on mount and groupings went to 1/2 - 3/4 at 100. Took me 400 rounds to figure it out, looked at the rub marks on the bottom of the mount to see that it was moving. Either way you are still wearing the gun in, its a good gun,keep shooting it, try some cheap ball rounds to get the barrel broke in, then switch to 168- 175 BH or FGMM,or roll your own, save all your brass for future use or for sale.

 

[Kilmore]

In testing a 20 inch LMT we found that Speer or Sierra 168 gr bullets were more accurate than the FGMM and M118LR 175's (production ammo as per military regulation, no reloading authorized by the JAG Corps). The 175's were shooting vertical stringers and flyers. A SSA-E trigger helped drop the groups sizes. Finally what brought the whole system into grace was a solid cheek weld. By adding a MagPul PRS I was able to go from hit and miss groups to solid 1/2 moa groups repeatable. Build up your stock to get your cheek bone high enough on the comb to get a sight picture without having to hold your head up to the eye piece. Trigger follow through and not adding torque on the stock with your cheek and trigger hand makes a significant difference. Finally square up behind your rifle, get a good POA in your crosshairs, close your eyes for 3-5 seconds, open them and see if your POA has moved. If you are getting drift when you re open your eyes you are inducing error into your shot. Relax your body, get your breathing timed to pull the trigger on the bottom or half breath, hold what you got until you see impact. If you get a significant right or left hop, you are probably pushing or pulling your shots. Plan on spending more time with your gas gun than your bolters to remain proficient with it. Never quit, most rifle accuracy will improve after the barrel has several hundred rounds through it. Keep shooting at least 1000 rounds before you lose all faith in the rifle. If by then nothing has changed, time to consider cutting you losses and moving to a different rifle. I took me nearly 600 rounds through a Mk12 Mod01 to really get the feel for the rifle. Now it is one of my most accurate guns. The LMT 7.62's were easier to improve with due to ammo choices available. Try different ammo right away. Could be a simple fix. ArmyJerry also found that his QD mount was moving. We has the same experience and replaced them with solid mount rings.

 

[DumDum]

Finally what brought the whole system into grace was a solid cheek weld. By adding a MagPul PRS I was able to go from hit and miss groups to solid 1/2 moa groups repeatable. Build up your stock to get your cheek bone high enough on the comb to get a sight picture without having to hold your head up to the eye piece.

ArmyJerry also found that his QD mount was moving. We has the same experience and replaced them with solid mount rings.

I've got the PRS and what I feel is a good cheek weld. I'm not having to search for edge to edge sight picture and I don't feel any strain in my neck.

Besides ammo, ArmyJerry was using a QD mount, that's interesting since I'm using a GG&G AccuCam QD mount. While it doesn't feel like it's moving, and after reading posts and advice, not everything is perceptible to touch, so just a slight movement each time amplifies my and/or the mounts errors.

I'm going to give it another run Thursday morning. Gets me out of the office. I'll start with everything I have stock at the moment and see if I'm squared away. Next comes ammo. Than probably check on rings. My bolt gun has Badger Ordnance and I've never had issues with them. Anyone else have opinions?

 

[Graham]

Double the amount of back pressure you are using to hold the rifle into your shoulder.

 

[Name Enough]

In testing a 20 inch LMT we found that Speer or Sierra 168 gr bullets were more accurate than the FGMM and M118LR 175's (production ammo as per military regulation, no reloading authorized by the JAG Corps). The 175's were shooting vertical stringers and flyers. A SSA-E trigger helped drop the groups sizes. Finally what brought the whole system into grace was a solid cheek weld. By adding a MagPul PRS I was able to go from hit and miss groups to solid 1/2 moa groups repeatable. Build up your stock to get your cheek bone high enough on the comb to get a sight picture without having to hold your head up to the eye piece. Trigger follow through and not adding torque on the stock with your cheek and trigger hand makes a significant difference. Finally square up behind your rifle, get a good POA in your crosshairs, close your eyes for 3-5 seconds, open them and see if your POA has moved. If you are getting drift when you re open your eyes you are inducing error into your shot. Relax your body, get your breathing timed to pull the trigger on the bottom or half breath, hold what you got until you see impact. If you get a significant right or left hop, you are probably pushing or pulling your shots. Plan on spending more time with your gas gun than your bolters to remain proficient with it. Never quit, most rifle accuracy will improve after the barrel has several hundred rounds through it. Keep shooting at least 1000 rounds before you lose all faith in the rifle. If by then nothing has changed, time to consider cutting you losses and moving to a different rifle. I took me nearly 600 rounds through a Mk12 Mod01 to really get the feel for the rifle. Now it is one of my most accurate guns. The LMT 7.62's were easier to improve with due to ammo choices available. Try different ammo right away. Could be a simple fix. ArmyJerry also found that his QD mount was moving. We has the same experience and replaced them with solid mount rings.

Great Post Kilmore!

 

[elfster1234]

Consistency, consistency, consistency, trial & error, ammo development, consistency, consistency, consistency. I've always said this as an estimation for 100yards, it's 40%shooter / 40% rifle / 20% ammo. The further you shoot past 100yards, the more wind & mirage variables come into play and the shooter% & ammo% exponentially increases.

1.) AMMO: If you're not reloading, then you should in order to come full circle as a precision shooter. Shooting the wrong ammo can totally screw with your head, making you think the issue is all on your when it is actually just the ammo. Until then, it's total hit or miss unless you're paying a stupid amount of money for stupid expensive factory ammo. Being able to control all aspects of the AMMO variable PLAYS A HUGE PART in this game. If you're not reloading, then do yourself a favorite and get-r-done as I enjoy reloading just as much as shooting my rifles. I've found that 168amax & 168 HPBT (you pick brand) works wonders in my LMT 1:10twist. Never had much luck with 175's. Once you find a bullet that obviously performs well in your rifle, then it's the never ending quest of hunting down the perfect powder & the amount of powder to drop. Once you lock down the powder, then it's off to the races with bullet seating depth and f#cking around with bullet jump. When it comes to reloading, everything falls back on consistency. Consistent headspace shoulder bump, consistent OGIVE seating depth, and consistent powder drop. Just for pure example, if you bump one pc of .308 brass to 1.623 and the next pc of brass to 1.628 for your fired brass of 1.632 = there goes your group in one shot. If I'm going to 5shot groups, everything I do is in increments of 5. Hell, even sometimes I'll even weigh out my bullets in batches of 5each (for 5shot groups) that all weigh the same (and actually doesn't take that long to do once you get a method to your madness) if you're going for ultimate accuracy (as I've even seen 168 amax bullets range all the way from 167.6 to 168.4 grns).... Once you get 5 bullets that weight exactly the same, move those 5 off to the side as a group of 5 (will use an extra loading tray for sorting bullets), seat those 5 & keep them together in your ammo box & will shoot just those 5 in a row. Even the smallest tricks of the trade such as keeping your brass in order while dropping powder (to minimalize scale drift) all the way through to seating & storage in your ammo box & loading into the magazine / taking the 5shots can make a .25moa difference.

2.) CONSISTENT SCOPE SHADOW, VIEW, SCOPE SET UP, & CHEEK WELD: Scope shadow is your friend & enemy actually. Once you have 100% clear glass with no scope shadow, then lock in that cheek weld. If going for groups, DO NOT move your view / cheek weld for nothing while taking your shots. If you move your head during your shots to scratch your ass, pick your nose, or say hello to your friend = 100% guarantee your P.O.I. will change with a semi-auto and your group will go to hell. Also, play around with your side focus. Just because your side focus says 100 for 100yard shooting doesn't mean you should use it. Try setting up your rifle in a rear bag & dead nuts zero on your bullseye. Bob your head left / right, up / down, and see if you're crosshairs move off your bullseye as you bob your head. I have found that I actually have less parallax with my scope set at about 75 to 80 setting on my scope, rather than 100 for sidefocus for shooting on the 100yard mark @ the local range. Once you get your side focus set up, screw around with your zoom, double check side focus, and then go to town.

3.) BI-POD.. TO LOAD OR NOT TO LOAD? SANDBAG ON THE FRONT? BIPOD SIZE!!! This topic is a strange one for me & I've found it to be a total trial and error type stuff. ALL of my AR's don't like bi-pod loading BUT for my RRA EOP varmint rifle.. Why? I seriously have no clue. You just need to take a couple 5shot groups both ways and see what works better for you. Heck, even try a sandbag on the front. It's all trial and error. EVERY ONE OF MY AR RIFLES likes to be shot differently. I swear they are more picky than my girlfriend. Finally, I have found the lower the bipod = the better. Also, the more level the rifle is once in the rear sandbag while using either a bipod / front sandbag = less bipod / muzzle jump = more accuracy. I noticed a HUGE difference going from 9-13" to 6-9" harris bipod on my AR's (just need to keep an eye on longer magazines so they don't hit the bench). Might need to kick the legs out a notch or two. My last LMT MWS on the 100yard shootout thread that was sub-moa all day long was with NO bipod loading on an ultra flat bench & allowing the recoil to more "naturally flow" into my shoulder with little pressure on the grip. Now, I could never do that with my RRA EOP varmint rifle. She likes an ultra firm hold for some damn reason.

4.) TRIGGER RESET OR NOT? Some, if not most, say to trigger re-set. For some damn reason I shoot like crap when I trigger re-set, BUT I totally understand it's purpose. Try it both ways, and see what works better for you

5.) REAR SAND BAG.... BEING REALLY AGRESSIVE OR NOT WITH THE RIFLE DURING YOUR SHOTS??: This is a strange one for me. I use an owl ear rear sand bag and I prefer a squeezable canvas style (not leather as they are too hard for elevation adjustment). When it comes to SOPMOD style stocks I actually run my owl ears front to back and "cup the point of the sopmod stock" in the pocket of the rear bag. This has proven great results for me with my SOPMOD style stocks as they would obviously just fall off the sandbag once the shot is taken. As for my A2 stock varmint rifle, then I run the ears left to right and allow the recoil to naturally flow into my shoulder. Once again, all trial and error type stuff. Try an aggressive hold, try a more relaxed hold & allowing the recoil to more flow into your shoulder. Some of my AR's like a more aggressive hold, but my LMT when shooting off of a flat bench (not ground / soil), likes a more "natural flow recoil" into my shoulder with little pressure on the grip for some strange reason. Once again, all trial and error, and remembering how that rifle you own works with you as a shooter. Not sure about bolt actions, but for me and my AR's... they are all different.

6.) SIZE OF YOUR BULLSEYE FOR THE YARDAGE BEING SHOT: This is just how I do it as a recreational shooter with my 16x scopes. I personally like shooting circles as they don't give a crap if they are level or not. 1" for 100yards, 2" for 200yards, 3" for 300yards, 4" for 400yards, and so on for my 16x scope... On the other hand, my 1-4 power scope on the 4x power works great with a 4" circle for 100yards & 8" circle for 200yards. I think you get where I'm going here. Once again, it's all about consistency. I try not to make the circle too big so you're not 100% sure if you're dead nuts zero, but not too small that your crosshairs cover up the damn circle. I've found that at 16x scope power, a 1" circle is just about perfect for 100yards. Once my crosshairs cut the circle into 4 perfect 1/4 pcs of pie = shot taken once dead nuts still in my rear bag.

7.) WHEN TO CLEAN THE BARREL?? Once again, another trial and error. Each rifle is different. I'm starting to come to the conclusion that my LMT 7.62 rifle with it's chrome lined barrel LOVES copper fouling. I haven't cleaned the copper out of my LMT in a while & will only run a snake down the barrel once with CLP after each trip to the range. Now, my 5.56 AR's (like my 3G1, RRA EOP varmint, and RRA ATH) with their 18" 1:8 twist barrels, I start to see accuracy drop off after about 400 to 500rounds. I seriously think this has something to do with a carbon ring right after the chamber & ripping the copper jacket off my bullets. Once I start to see accuracy fall off (and my RRA EOP varmint rifle is notorious for this), it really needs the entire barrel scrubbed down & will take about 20 to 30 rounds for my groups to get tight again once the barrel has been totally cleaned of all copper / carbon. This is when I bust out my foam bore cleaner when I need to remove all copper / carbon... Not everyone uses snakes, but I do. Keep those snakes clean about every 10th cleaning by cleaning them with soap / water & let dry for a couple days. Making sure to the snake out of the muzzle of the barrel as straight as possible. Name of the game is = less times you run the snake down the barrel = the better. I just got done screwing around with this with my RRA EOP as the accuracy was totally going to hell (like 1.25moa groups and not .75moa) due to not cleaning the copper / carbon fully after about 500rounds. It took 2 total 15min sessions of foam in the barrel to get it tip top again. Once again, trial and error. Each rifle is different.

http://www.snipershide.com/[email protected]

 

[DumDum]

Great information Elfster. I also read your other linked post. I would love to get into reloading - but I value my life and my wife would most certainly take it if I spend more time playing with toys! I've tried to get her into shooting with me, I've tried to get her to try archery with me, but she's happy playing mommy, which is great, since she's a great mom, but sooner or later, the minions will flock to play with daddy on the range hopefully!! Plus Uncle Sam likes to drain the life out of me daily, so finding the energy to work, play catch the bad guys with the boys, and keeping my wife happy, energy is nearly gone. Plus I have a huge to role to live up to - I just found out that my oldest promoted me to BATMAN!

 

[DumDum]

You need to just focus on all the fundamentals sight picture, breathing, trigger squeeze, and shoot a lot. You have barely shot anything in your LWRC and need to be practicing as much as you can. Don't get discouraged by a few bad groups just shoot. It may help to turn your gas system off and just single fire it. Once you get good with the gas system off shoot it with it on. The LWRC is a great platform, I really like how you can cycle the bolt when shooting subs.

There was a ton of great advice just on this single post of crying for help. Frank I did just that - turned the gas system off - and my groups were identical to those of my bolt gun. That leads me to believe that my follow through, or shall I say like thereof, was most likely the key this time. That's not to say the rest of everything that was discussed was dismissed, but luckily, at least for now, I feel like I'm back on track, however a long road ahead of mastering this rifle!

 

[DroidSniper]

Whats interesting is being an expert rifleman in the USMC when I first bought a bolt gun I was ashamed at how poorly i shot with it but could turn around and wear out a 8 inch plat at 250 yards with iron sites in my AR. It has taken me a long time to get decent with a bolt gun. I use my 10/22 A LOT with a scope to practice my follow through. I intentionally keep the crap factory trigger so I have to use the mile long trigger pull and over travel. Unfortunately I really think the best way to get better is have someone there with you coaching you. I need to get out to a shooting class some day with my .308. I have also taken to recording myself and critiquing my technique.

 

[bluto77]

+1 on the Magpul PRS

After figuring out which ammo my rifle liked, I switched to the PRS to get a more consistent cheek weld. That seemed to help quite a bit too.

 

[jfields]

I have about 2,000 rounds through a 16" REPR. Most of those have been 175 Black Hills. My gun shot the FGMM 168 better at 100 yards, but I had a case of the Black Hills so that is what It got. The 175s also do better at distance. There is a lot of good advice in the thread above. I am definitely a better shooter after a couple thousand rounds than when I started. Bolt guns are simply more forgiving than a piston gun. Get a good stock. Mine came with the VLTOR,which is a great stock, but not for precision work. I think you will find that most REPRs are MOA or a little better. That should be just fine for anything inside 1000 yards.

-J

 

[POSM]

Ammo

The LWRC is a good upper. But some of the chambers were cut a little out of line with the bore. It might not matter or be the case with your gun. Anyway, .308 gas guns are very ammo sensitive. I have an OBR with shoots 1 MOA groups with Federal GMM, Lapua, and Australian Defense Industries ammo. It is the least sensitive of the .308 gas guns I've encountered. I also have a JP that shoots either 1/4 MOA groups or 3 MOA groups depending on the ammo. It only shoots sub MOA with hand loaded ammo that is properly developed for it. My guess is that you could develop a load for your LWRC that would get it to 3/4 or 1/2 MOA if you are willing to go to the trouble.