Verifying chargemaster

[Sutherlandsd]

If you are looking to 'verify' that it is throwing accurate charge weights, then just don't buy it in the first place and get a better scale/system to start with. The chargemaster is good for loading plinker and hunting rounds at best. I'll spare you the wonder about verifying the weights - it's going to be +/- .2 grains on average.
Buy once, cry once, trust me. I have spent probably a grand on beam scales, other digital scales, and the chargemaster over the years. Up until a few months ago the accuracy of my powder charges have been a best guess at best. Finally broke down and bought an autotrickler setup coupled to and A&D fx120i scale. I now have accuracy down to the kernel, and it throws charges 2-3 times faster than the chargemaster.

This made me truly LOL.

Fuck man I should tell my Labradar those ES 3-5 I am getting on my 6BR are false. And I had a hell of time yesterday "plinking" from 560-1200 yards.

Chargemaster is fine, if your shooting benchrest with your name and a sponsor on your shirt then go buy something more. I had an fx120 that I got from a physician with more money than sense and while it was nice it was not noticeably more accurate than my chargemaster. It is fast I give you that but using the insert and the mods my chargemasters are faster than me. I sold it got a dillon press (that I never use but need to one of these days...) and another chargemaster to hold H4350 so I rarely need to change powder.

 

[antithesis]

A scale that has +/- 0.1 grains means a total difference of 0.2 grains between loads. The shorter the distance and lighter the bullet the less the variation in bullet drop. I am wasting my time and money if I am trying to shoot 0.1 mils at 500+ yards with a 0.2 grain variation in my charge.

 

[Bradu]

A scale that has +/- 0.1 grains means a total difference of 0.2 grains between loads. The shorter the distance and lighter the bullet the less the variation in bullet drop. I am wasting my time and money if I am trying to shoot 0.1 mils at 500+ yards with a 0.2 grain variation in my charge.

So you shoot golf balls at 500 yards

 

[antithesis]

So you shoot golf balls at 500 yards

As a matter of fact, yes.

I have some buddies that want to do it with ping pong balls. I think that is getting a bit ridiculous since golf balls are hard enough to see and hit but I am going to give it a try.

 

[Bradu]

My comment was meant as a joke because I bet you can't keep your wind calls within a tenth... I'm also willing to bet a lot of these guys chasing numbers don't shoot past 1k either. Benchrest guys have used a Harrell's throwers with good success and I'm positive they don't throw to the kernel.

 

[Cerwinski]

Obsessing over hundredths of grains is futile and a huge waste of time. Find a good node, let the chargemaster run, and go shoot. It may make people feel good to use lab scales and to toil over .003 of a grain but it does not matter if you have a good load. If you want to go shoot benchrest, sure get obsessive and go to town. If you want to shoot 3/8 moa and shoot 2000 yards just find a good load and stop trying to be a scientist. Guys can say it’s not possible but I and others here can tell you it’s really not that hard.

While I am far from an expert, I tend to agree. My last range trip I chronographed my favorite load for my HMR. Loaded with a Chargemaster Lite (I did the straw mod to it). SD was 3.4 over ten rounds measured with a Magnetospeed. I really could not believe what my eyes were seeing for a moment lol. I'm supposed to need to spend five figures to even come close to this result.

Edit: I meant four figures. Coffee needs to kick in.

 

[918v]

My old CM is accurate within .2 grain but it throws over sometimes. There is a difference between the accuracy of the charge weight and the consistency of the thrown weight.

The comment about it being +\- .2gr is correct if we’re talking thrown charges. But it’s much better if you throw the charge and take the time to look at the display before pouring it into the case.

 

[Cerwinski]

My old CM is accurate within .2 grain but it throws over sometimes. There is a difference between the accuracy of the charge weight and the consistency of the thrown weight.

The comment about it being +\- .2gr is correct if we’re talking thrown charges. But it’s much better if you throw the charge and take the time to look at the display before pouring it into the case.

The straw mod will fix the overthrows. My Lite would overthrow 4350 one in four times. After the mod it has NEVER done that.

 

[Bradu]

The straw mod will fix the overthrows. My Lite would overthrow 4350 one in four times. After the mod it has NEVER done that.

Can you tell that to both my chargemasters, they apparently didn't get the memo.

 

[Jbova]

Can you tell that to both my chargemasters, they apparently didn't get the memo.

The straw mod works if you do it right. You need to shove the straw far enough down the dispense tube to block off some of the opening that lets powder fall into the tube. It takes a little messing with but it does work.

 

[Precision Underground]

Can you tell that to both my chargemasters, they apparently didn't get the memo.

Make it run a hair up hill and make sure there is NO static causing the powder to stick to the straw. This will cause chunks to hang on the end and all fall off at once. Also make sure you are not disturbing the bench the CM is on AT ALL (seating bullets or bumping the bench reaching for something). Make sure your movements aren't stirring air around it. Anytime mine throws off I can easily see that is was due to one of the reasons above. It is an extremely sensitive set up that is very susceptible to outside interference. Once you know what to look for and how to let it do it's thing without interference, it will run like a champ. My 6.5 load is ridic consistent. The chrono will show so many duplicates I think the chrono is broken. Change to a different gun and no duplicates at all.

 

[antithesis]

My comment was meant as a joke because I bet you can't keep your wind calls within a tenth... I'm also willing to bet a lot of these guys chasing numbers don't shoot past 1k either. Benchrest guys have used a Harrell's throwers with good success and I'm positive they don't throw to the kernel.

That would be where the "try" comes in! Spending thou$and$ on rifles and optics just to shoot a meh load does not make much sense to me. When I shoot I want me to be the problem.

 

[Jbova]

That would be where the "try" comes in! Spending thou$and$ on rifles and optics just to shoot a meh load does not make much sense to me. When I shoot I want me to be the problem.

What type of shooting do you do that requires measuring to the Kernel or even better than a tenth of a grain?

 

[Bradu]

Make it run a hair up hill and make sure there is NO static causing the powder to stick to the straw. This will cause chunks to hang on the end and all fall off at once. Also make sure you are not disturbing the bench the CM is on AT ALL (seating bullets or bumping the bench reaching for something). Make sure your movements aren't stirring air around it. Anytime mine throws off I can easily see that is was due to one of the reasons above. It is an extremely sensitive set up that is very susceptible to outside interference. Once you know what to look for and how to let it do it's thing without interference, it will run like a champ. My 6.5 load is ridic consistent. The chrono will show so many duplicates I think the chrono is broken. Change to a different gun and no duplicates at all.

Tried all that and still overthrows all the time

 

[BCX]

All I use is a Chargemaster Lite! I warm it up, calibrate the scale, turn off any systems than can create a draft and....

 

[BCX]

I will have to try the straw trick! Good idea guys.

 

[antithesis]

What type of shooting do you do that requires measuring to the Kernel or even better than a tenth of a grain?

I shoot 6.5 CM and 6 Dasher out in the UT west desert where there is no official rifle range so I pack my own targets. The largest piece of steel I have is 12" and I like to shoot out to 1,500, but mostly I shoot between 700 and 1k. The wind sucks most days and temps change upwards of 30 degrees during the summer. If you can't shoot small you have a hard time getting satisfaction.

Local bench range only goes out to 300 so I mostly 308, some 223 and 204. All paper. I do have a portable bench that I take out the the desert every now and then.

I had been shooting off a bench for years before I started messing around with the long range stuff. So much so that I am comfortable putting a new scope on and sight in at 300. The only time I shoot 200 is when doing load development at the range or when we go to 1 of 2 areas that we can put paper up and still have a good berm (they max close to 200). 100 is just too close so I actually get sloppy from overconfidence.

FWIW, I do own a CM 1500, but I only use it for semi-auto loading. Probably could use the Area 419/Autotrickler setup for them but I have all my loads programmed and they shoot fine at the distance and system they are intended for. Before I picked up that combo I used a modified 5-0-5 most of the time, or a GemPro 250. The GemPro is decent if you are willing to spend a ton of time - zero every 5 or so loads, re-calibrate every 10 or so unless your room is very stable in both temp and humidity. The GemPro is stupid sensitive that way. I also have a modified 5-10 and 10-10, but the 5-0-5 was always more consistent.

Pistol stuff simply goes from powder measure to case (turret mounted).

 

[Bradu]

As a matter of fact, yes.

I have some buddies that want to do it with ping pong balls. I think that is getting a bit ridiculous since golf balls are hard enough to see and hit but I am going to give it a try.

View attachment 7104019

I've shot a few at 600 yards, my data sucked since I was roaming and it wouldn't upload. I took a picture of the first one I ever shot at that distance. I'm going to make a different setup so the ball hangs in front of a plate so you can spot the misses easier.

 

[Dev L]

To me the Chargemaster is fine for consistency, but the speed is too slow. Had to do an insert and alter the speed on the unit. Also have to wait to see it go back to weight and ensure it is not over. If it is, dump a little back in and hand trickle up. This is a 1 in 10 to 1 in 20 proposition on throws. I also used to dump the powder from all 50 and reweigh each charge to ensure they were all to the same .1 grain but it is only off by .1 grain about 1 in 50 rounds and only every other time I did it, so I stopped and just ensure a couple of the first rounds and last rounds match to ensure no drift occurred.

But the real issue is the speed... it is just WAY too slow. You can get enough accuracy to keep a .1 to .15 grain max spread, even have most under a .1 grain max spread, but it will be SIGNIFICANTLY slower than anything but a beam scale.

 

[antithesis]

Pit

I've shot a few at 600 yards, my data sucked since I was roaming and it wouldn't upload. I took a picture of the first one I ever shot at that distance. I'm going to make a different setup so the ball hangs in front of a plate so you can spot the misses easier.

I wrap them with thin tie wire (the stuff used for motorcycle grips) then hang them in front of a blue shoot and see that is stapled to a piece of plywood. If you wrap the wire in a cross the ball does not go very far even if the wire gets hit with the ball. The suck part is when you hit the top wire before the ball.

Shot them on the ground and with tees drilled in to the top of boards. You don't always find those when the get hit.

 

[Bradu]

Pit


I wrap them with thin tie wire (the stuff used for motorcycle grips) then hang them in front of a blue shoot and see that is stapled to a piece of plywood. If you wrap the wire in a cross the ball does not go very far even if the wire gets hit with the ball. The suck part is when you hit the top wire before the ball.

Shot them on the ground and with tees drilled in to the top of boards. You don't always find those when the get hit.

I bought small eyelets that I'm going to thread into them then use wire to hang them. Haven't tried it but it should work. We sit them on top of fence posts that are out there for a target backer and on railroad ties. The last one I hit knocked the ball off the other post, it went left after being hit and hit the other ball almost perfectly.

 

[antithesis]

Maybe you are on to something. Bullet Bowling?

 

[BCX]

Just tried the straw trick. Its slower but all 25 on the money. Cked everyone on a triple beam...

 

[Cerwinski]

Just tried the straw trick. Its slower but all 25 on the money. Cked everyone on a triple beam...

It really does work. I went a step further and cut the end into a little crown shape. I don't understand why RCBS (and others) refuse to incorporate something like this from the factory.

 

[Meety Peety]

I'm not going to sit here and say the chargemaster is THE way to go but there are plenty of people able to get single digit SDs on them. In my opinion, where the autotrickler shines is being able to throw consistent accurate drops quickly, whereas the CM is capable of producing decent loads, but at the cost of much more time (ie lack of consistency, overthrows that need to be adjusted). Saying you cant get decent loads on a CM is just silly, it's more about how much time do you want to spend to get them.

If the difference between going 1 for 10 and 10 for 10 on a golf ball "in the desert" is that .02 scale accuracy, well then have at it. For the matches I'm shooting, getting my SD from a 6 to 2 is more of a feel good thing, not a practical improvement that I will see down range. And for that matter, I know a lot of guys getting around 5-6 SDs on an autotrickler. Which in my opinion is fine, because they are doing it 3 to 4 times faster than they were when they ran a chargemaster.

 

[Precision Underground]

I'm not going to sit here and say the chargemaster is THE way to go but there are plenty of people able to get single digit SDs on them. In my opinion, where the autotrickler shines is being able to throw consistent accurate drops quickly, whereas the CM is capable of producing decent loads, but at the cost of much more time (ie lack of consistency, overthrows that need to be adjusted). Saying you cant get decent loads on a CM is just silly, it's more about how much time do you want to spend to get them.

If the difference between going 1 for 10 and 10 for 10 on a golf ball "in the desert" is that .02 scale accuracy, well then have at it. For the matches I'm shooting, getting my SD from a 6 to 2 is more of a feel good thing, not a practical improvement that I will see down range. And for that matter, I know a lot of guys getting around 5-6 SDs on an autotrickler. Which in my opinion is fine, because they are doing it 3 to 4 times faster than they were when they ran a chargemaster.

Mine throws 42 gr pretty much as fast as I can seat a bullet, inspect it, and be ready to dump powder again. There are things you have to do and not to to accomplish this and as they say, it’s really not that hard or complicated.

I saw a video of a guy on Facebook who was seemingly trying to show off how fast he could lubricate, size, chamfer, and seat all at the same time. When I quizzed him about why the heck he would make it so complicated (and also not clean the lube off of the cases before calling them ready to shoot)he said it’s because the CM takes so long(and that it didn’t matter if you put lube in your chamber). He was clearly blowing air all over the CM and disturbing the table while the CM was trickling. Well that’s a real good way to make your CM take forever.

If you understand the CM is a really dumb, really sensitive robot that is easily confused, you can treat it as such and it will be able to execute its objective much more effectively. Disturbing the bench or allowing a draft to interfere, among other things, is like calling out random numbers to a 5 year old who is trying to do subtraction in his head. You are going to confuse him and make the process take a lot longer. That’s exactly what interference does to a CM. It throws random scale fluctuations into the processor and confuses the hell out of it.

 

[Bradu]

I run two chargemasters to speed up the process, I don't like trying to seat a bullet while waiting for it to do its job. I have done it when loading a few rounds for load development so I don't have to empty both hoppers when I'm done. The autothrow and trickler is a lot faster and that is why I would consider going that route if starting over. That is why some of us bought a Giraud trimmer, it saves a lot of time when loading a bunch of ammo.

 

[Steel head]

Just tried the straw trick. Its slower but all 25 on the money. Cked everyone on a triple beam...

I run the Hornandy and the straw mod is essential for them.

 

[Meety Peety]

Mine throws 42 gr pretty much as fast as I can seat a bullet, inspect it, and be ready to dump powder again. There are things you have to do and not to to accomplish this and as they say, it’s really not that hard or complicated.

I saw a video of a guy on Facebook who was seemingly trying to show off how fast he could lubricate, size, chamfer, and seat all at the same time. When I quizzed him about why the heck he would make it so complicated (and also not clean the lube off of the cases before calling them ready to shoot)he said it’s because the CM takes so long(and that it didn’t matter if you put lube in your chamber). He was clearly blowing air all over the CM and disturbing the table while the CM was trickling. Well that’s a real good way to make your CM take forever.

If you understand the CM is a really dumb, really sensitive robot that is easily confused, you can treat it as such and it will be able to execute its objective much more effectively. Disturbing the bench or allowing a draft to interfere, among other things, is like calling out random numbers to a 5 year old who is trying to do subtraction in his head. You are going to confuse him and make the process take a lot longer. That’s exactly what interference does to a CM. It throws random scale fluctuations into the processor and confuses the hell out of it.

Yea, mine can sometimes throw that quickly but generally not. I also have opted NOT to speed mine up despite the fact that I do feel that it's slow. I would rather have it run a bit slower than have to deal with added overthrows. Beginning with primed and ready to load brass I loaded 230 rounds for a match and averaged about 1 round per minute. Immediately when I got back from that match I loaded about 160 more for two 1 day matches and saw the same average. Thats a lot of time when you consider the time span between matches.

This was comprised of the occasional fast throw, average speed throws and a few long throws and also accounted for time spent correcting over throws. Many of my really fast throws were actually overthrows that needed correction, but not all. This is using the metal insert that someone was selling here a while back (which did produce a good improvement I might add, it's a good buy). I can generally seat anywhere from 1-3 bullets between throws but I dont prefer to do so, I just do it because it's less down time. I would much prefer to throw accurate powder charges every 10-15 seconds and seat bullets when that task is complete. Just a preference thing I guess.

My CM sits on it's own isolated bench and I dont see any speed improvement with or without the draft guard, there is nothing to shield it from. Dont think I am complaining, the CM is a good product that is capable of producing good ammo as I stated before (I am still using it after all) but speed isn't its strong suit for most people, that's where the Autotrickler shines. It's only like ~$250 though so what can you expect, of course it's going to have limitations.

 

[Rookie]

On the occasional overthrow by my CM, I take the charge off the scale, remove a kernel or 2 from the pan, set it back on the scale to confirm the right weight, and load it. I've been consistently shooting .3 to .4 moa 5-shot groups and I'm good with that. And that's with a turret press which I hear tell can't make accurate ammo due to run out. My run out as measured on the bullet of a loaded round is generally .002 or less.

To me group size is a better indication of accuracy than velocity differences when I consider the rather high % of error in my chrono.

 

[garandman]

To me group size is a better indication of accuracy than velocity differences when I consider the rather high % of error in my chrono.

At 100 yards (set , known distance) yes.

At varying, longer ranges, you need to know velocity, and consistent velocity.

Get a MagnetoSpeed.

 

[Wheres-Waldo]

Step 1: Buy a Chargemaster or Chargemaster Lite
Step 2: Use it
Step 3: Shoot the ammo
Step 4: Evaluate the machine
Step 5: Are you happy with the performance? Great! Keep using it!
Are you dissatisfied with the performance? Cool, sell it and get yourself a lab balance!

 

[EchoDeltaSierra]

I’m curious how many people use check weights (not calibration weights) versus a second scale. My workflow used to rely on two scales, now it is just a single chargemaster producing very acceptable results (over 2100 rounds 6.5CR since March 1).

Chargemaster is modded a bit with a brass restrictor in the nozzle, and reprogrammed to speed thing up. Before I start charging, the scale is calibrated (usually twice), then zeroed with the pan, then I drop in check weights to ensure scale accuracy. For 6.5CR charges I check using two 20gr weights and a 5gr weight. From there is start loading. Sometimes the scale drifts .1-.2gr, and when it does, I can pause charging and drop the check weights in the pan again.

Consistency is key. If the scale measures the check weights properly each 10-20 rounds I can be sure the scale measures the charges equally well. From my experience (shooting e-targets at 600-1000y) both good groups and low SD/ES are observed.

 

[Tokay444]

There have been people test the accuracy and extreme spreads/sd's of the different scales and it didn't make that much difference. Plenty of us using a chargemaster with single digit sd's. Please tell us all about how you are going to shoot the difference ?

Heck, I use the charge master with single digit ESs!!

 

[Tokay444]

A scale that has +/- 0.1 grains means a total difference of 0.2 grains between loads. The shorter the distance and lighter the bullet the less the variation in bullet drop. I am wasting my time and money if I am trying to shoot 0.1 mils at 500+ yards with a 0.2 grain variation in my charge.

Potential* .2gr difference between charges.

 

[Steel head]

Heck, I use the charge master with single digit ESs!!

I use a Hornandy LNL and can get the same results.

 

[Tokay444]

It’s more about doing the same routine over and over once you find a node your rifle likes.
The check weights don’t need to be exactly the weight they’re listed at down to the nanogram, as long as you always use those weights, it won’t matter.

 

[Snuby642]

Sounds like a great excuse to me .
Less than a puff of wind.

What 5-10 fps? Really wrecking the chrono, damn !

 

[ditter]

I have the CM Lite and it works perfect. But as others have said, you have to do some things before using.
1. I keep mine unplugged when not in use.
2. Always let it warm up for 20 mins with a check weight on it.
3. Dont use it on the bench when using the press as any shaking of the bench will cause overthrows.
4. Make sure it is level or even a little tilted up. I havent installed a straw in it.

I rarely get overthrows using H4350. Maybe 1 of 20 charges will go over by .1. If it happens, you take a few kernels out with your finger and you're good. While reloading, I use a homemade check weight that is the same weight as the charge. I use brass washers. For a 41.6 grain charge, I used a brass washer from a toilet install kit that I measured on the beam scale and the CM. Then every 10 charges or so, I throw the washer in the pan and see if it matches up. If you have a washer that is too heavy, hit it with a dremel. If it is too light, wrap some tape around it. Easy.

I know a guy at the range that bought all the scales from the CM to the Hornady and now to a lab scale to measure down to a millionth of a grain and spent over a grand for it. Really didnt do much. Then he dropped 500 bucks on a match grade barrel and saw his groups and SD/ES drop significantly. My next add on is a Bartlein barrel to replace the factory barrel. I'm sure that will make more of a difference than a lab scale.

 

[Tokay444]

I leave mine turned on all the time, and calibrate before each use.
This load is still in development.