Vertical Stringing, some insight??

[shooterman_zero17]

After my trip to the range today, I noticed how vertically strung my groups can sometimes get. And it's not just on my .22LR like today, I looked back on my best groups from taking my AR out with 69gr SMKs, and I think I'm seeing SOME vertical stringing going on?

I'm not sure. Just trying to learn the true symptoms of vertical stringing in my groups, what it means about the weapon, and moreso, about myself and how/what I'm doing.

Some imagery to help:

From today (3/18/12) with my CZ 452V:

From a trip prior (1/8/12), same rifle:

Same trip, with the Sig 522:

From when I took the AR out (1/6/12):

If I'm seeing things, please correct me. Thanks for your input in advance 'Hide.

 

[sniperkwg]

Re: Vertical Stringing, some insight??

Been a hundred years since I been on here but I'm back.

If using iron sights:

1. Not focusing on the front sight
2. Shine on the front sight post.

Optics

1. Not focusing on the reticle.

Position issues.

1. Bad follow-through. Relaxing before projectile exits the barrel. (most likely)
2. Rifle not solid in the shoulder and sliding during recoil.

You can guess on what you are doing wrong all day. What you really need to do is ensure that you are applying the fundamentals correctly. One of the biggest issues in situations like this I see are bad follow-through. Do not relax your trigger pressure or anything until you regain your sight picture after the shot. Note where the rifle recoils to. Watch the sight post or reticle ALL the way through the shot. Do not chase the bullet down range with your vision.

Dry fire and make sure you are practicing good follow-through.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Vertical Stringing, some insight??

OP,

You need to call each of your shots; and, according to corollary to strikes, determine likely sources of error. You could have a multitude of problems originating with some aspects of your position being inconsistent, like butt-to-shoulder and stockweld; and, without learning how to analyze for yourself you will not make any progress. Also, as alluded to by an earlier poster, poor follow-through, perspective of hold or even parallax could be issues. In addition, assuming you're shooting from the right shoulder, an inconsistent left elbow could get you a vertical string, as well as a very low gun position.

At first, a really good position may feel unnatural, and because you cannot observe yourself, you may need to get someone who knows how to shoot observe your position to help you work out any obvious problems. But, remember, since all firing takes place at the firearm, only you can say for sure how things looked when the shot broke. Therefore, learn to recognize the effect of changing any aspect of your position, sight alignment, or trigger control has on hitting where desired.

 

[sniperkwg]

Re: Vertical Stringing, some insight??

Sterling shooter brings up a good point on the too low of position. I used to see it all the time when teaching at sniper schools (SSIS, ARNG and when teaching as a contractor) students would get in these ultra low positions which resulted in their having to look out of the top of their eye sockets and glasses, craning their necks etc. Not good. I found my self doing this sometimes and it really makes it harder to get muscular relaxation and a natural point of aim. Plus your eyes function better when they are looking straight ahead, not straining to look at your eyebrows

Like I said without being able to watch you shoot you really just need to ensure that you are applying the fundamentals properly as any one of a number of violations can cause the vertical stringing. Parallax will usually just open up your group size, not necessarily string it vertically although again, all bets are off if ALL of the fundamentals aren't being applied correctly.

Here's an idea. Next time you go to the range take a buddy with you and have him sit next to you. Get in position, take a few shots, then leave the bolt open and have your buddy load the rifle one shot at a time for you, sometimes leaving the chamber empty. This results in you not knowing if there is a round in the chamber or not. If you can get someone to load you some dummy rounds this is even easier, just have your buddy load the rifle/magazine and throw in a dummy every now and then. Now, when that dummy shows up you are going to see reticle/sight movement that is normally masked by recoil, alluding to your marksmanship faux paux. Its called , "Ball and dummy exercises" and has solved many a shooters post recoil push, anticipation, relaxing under recoil, trigger yanking etc.

AND... get a databook and call and plot EVERY one of your shots. I designed one called the TRGT Databook now being sold by US Tactical Supply. By correlating your shot calls, plots and notes you should be able to cure almost all reasons to "miss the mark".

Gooch out

 

[calling4life]

Re: Vertical Stringing, some insight??

Breathing, break your shot at the bottom of your breath, every time.
Not holding your breath, natural breathing cycle, break shot at bottom.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Vertical Stringing, some insight??

Current TTT and SDM curriculums on the matter from the USAMU suggest breathing is not a factor of a steady position; and, when the shooter is not prompted to think about breathing, the shooter will shoot during the natural respiratory pause. However, when the shooter is told to think about breathing, the shooter is usually distracted by it enough for it to become a problem.

 

[sniperkwg]

Re: Vertical Stringing, some insight??

I've always felt that proper breathing was a part of relaxation anyway but in order to get the acronym B.R.A.S.S. they needed a "B" to start it out with and the "breathing" thing just stuck. Its like a lot of coaching and instructing techniques. I once had a person who was watching me practicing on a range firing air pistol and they asked to try shooting. They took the pistol and, no kidding, shot an almost perfect center shot. I called our team coach over, who was a member of the USMC Pistol Team, MSgt Chives, and told him to give this person some training and see how they did. They NEVER did that well again. Its almost like we take a relatively simple act of shooting and made it so hard that people don't believe they can actually do it. Like Lanny Basham stated in his book "With Winning in Mind". A shooter just knows what they are SUPPOSED to DO, not necessarily what they are doing WRONG. With the breathing deal most people will naturally pause when they concentrate and relax. A coach should just watch and make sure they are doing it and if not, quickly correct it and move on.

One exception to the breathing deal is when shooting under extreme stress and the shooter is needing to use cadence breathing. THEN it is a specific technique and needs to be instructed in it.

Shooting is actually a pretty simple act and we really need to avoid making it any harder than what it is. Of course chasing an X ring requires some more precise application of the fundamentals but its basically the same. I was at a USMC Birthday Ball once with WO Jim Cook who was a former National Service Rifle Champion and another Marine was all googoo eyed over his Distinguished shooter and team badges and asked Jim what his secret was. Jim replied, "I pick the gun up, I shoot it and I put it down." Kinda nailed it.

 

[shooterman_zero17]

Re: Vertical Stringing, some insight??

Follow through, check. I hold trigger pressure consistently. Left elbow, may be a problem for me. It may be tied into my shooting position, and it being low, as you guys say. I dry fire these rifles often, and I have had a buddy spot me for obvious flinch signs at the range and dry firing. I have been told none is evident to his eye. Breathing, I always break the shot off at the bottom of my breathing cycle before it becomes uncomfortable (not necessarily racing it mind you). Focus on the reticle, I caught myself NOT focused several times on Sunday. I'm guilty of it for sure. Regards to Ball&Dummy, next time I have bulk, I will have someone else load my mags to an unknown capacity and shoot until I hit empty.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Vertical Stringing, some insight??

I like the way Gunner Gooch has presented it. It reminded me of a friend and mentor, CW3 Charles Green, who helped me get off to a good start in Service Rifle Competition. He seemed to be able, as has been said, to just pick up the rifle, shoot great scores, and put the rifle back in its case. At any rate, with all of his awards proving he did indeed know how to do it, I thought he'd be a big help to me. One thing he could not help me with was my anxiety, my biggest distraction to success. Nevertheless, he showed me how it was possible to shoot good scores when I just did what he told me to do. I learned from him a shooter needs to first know what's important to good shooting, and from there, he needs to practice enough to make it appear to most that all he's doing is picking up the rifle, shooting great scores, and putting the rifle back in its case.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Vertical Stringing, some insight??

I'll concur with SS on this.

The whole point of training is to hone the individual skills to the point where they can be allowed to fade back behind the alert part of your consciousness. If they are closer to the front, they become disruptive distractions.

My mantra has always concluded with "see the front sight, feel the trigger". First thing I was taught, first thing I remember. This is what I should be allowing to enter my sphere of concentration, and that's all. My teacher was CW3 Bill Miller.

The assumption is that all the other parts of the basics have had their place in the litany as part of the pre-shot check list; not proceding from one part to the next until the current part is resolved to the shooter's satisfaction.

When I notice other shooters rattling off their shots, I know that as awful as my current performance may be, they are easy to beat because they could not possibly be following that checklist and shooting again so soon.

Greg