Viet Nam Model 70's

[Flint62a1]

l read that model 70's in Viet Nam were used with either a Unertl scope or a 3-9 scope. The writer didn't specify what make of 3-9 scope that was. I was wondering if anyone knew the answer to that? Were they the Redfields? Or was it a different model
thanks
Kevin

 

[mjh30]

It was a Japanese manufactured 3-9x40 riflescope, that apparently had Marine on it. Ed Kugler in his book, specifically mentions using the Model 70 with this scope.

 

[SatCong]

I thought it was a Redfield scope.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

There were also the cam-actuated Leatherwood ART scopes, which were about 3 - 9.... Technically I think 2.5 - 10. Made their appearance late in the conflict.

I think there was also some stuff purchased at various PX's around VN.... and in USA. And put to good use whether the S4's liked it or not. But there are some folks here who know more firsthand... and I am sure they will chime in.

Also, Satcong... there were Rediield 3 x 9's that were modified to match M118 ammo. I think. But I am going from memory here.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[buffalowinter]

The Winchester M70 with Unertl 8X scope was used early in the Vietnam conflict by all branches but never officially adopted as a sniper rifle. Later, the Remington 700 with 3x9 green anodized scope with accu-range reticle was officially adopted. Here is my Winchester M70 with redfield 3x9 scope.

 

[USMCSGT0331]

l read that model 70's in Viet Nam were used with either a Unertl scope or a 3-9 scope. The writer didn't specify what make of 3-9 scope that was. I was wondering if anyone knew the answer to that? Were they the Redfields? Or was it a different model
thanks
Kevin

The sniper variants of the M70 used the 8x Unertl scopes.

The sporter M70's didn't use the Unertl.

Both Chandler and Senich say that the Marines would purchase commercial scopes that were marked "Marine" and use those on their sporter M70's. These scopes were supposedly made in Japan and are 3-9x, but that's about all the known information on them. Unfortunately, no one really has any solid evidence that points to an exact manufacture of the "Marine" scope. If you find one, please let us know!

There is also a well known photo of a soldier crossing a stream in Vietnam and he's holding a M70 sporter with a scope on it. I forget what scope it is, guys on other forums have picked the photo apart over the past decade. Looks like an M84 or something similar. Here's the photo:

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As far as I can tell, the Redfield greenies from the M40's were never used on the M70's. However, it's war and absolutely anything can happen, so I don't doubt that this combo may have been used by some Marine at some point. Along these lines, I decided to see what a M70 and Redfield greenie combo would look like, this is what I came up with:
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From the known USMC M70 serial number list in Death From Afar vol. 1:

 

[pmclaine]

[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/14544-presscdn-0-64.pagely.netdna-cdn.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2014\/04\/Army_LRRP_sniper_with_Winchester_70_in_Vietnam.jpg"}[/IMG2]

That dude is burdened.

He took the concept of "butt pack" to the limit.

A hard Corps Hunter. I hope he is well and enjoying his grandkids.

 

[sandwarrior]

I can understand how the pic got ripped apart. First, sniper rifle AND radio. Radio carried outside the pack. The pack is a small ALICE (not buttpack) which still has a radio pouch in it. As do the mediums and large's (what I carried). In any case, that guy is going to go about 100 more meters before he gets a herniated disc.

FWIW, the radio appears to be an AN-PRC-77. Also interesting is the rifle has a buttpad. Which only makes sense as they were available in the VN timeframe. My understanding though is the snipers used the original steel buttplate. Why?, that would hurt.

 

[pmclaine]

I caught that it was an ALICE just kind of unorthodox to carry it that way. Im guessing he is on a long range patrol, probably moving only a short distance to cache the pack,than will move into hide with the only necessary tools - a radio and rifle. Or he is in an area of imminent contact and the intent will be to shed the ALICE and he needs to keep the important tools at hand - a radio and a rifle. Panning out there is probably a Lt ahead or behind him.

Marine Rec offices had the Win 70 sporters. Marines could sign them out for hunting or any lawful purpose. They would have been in full civie config to include the ramped front sight rear buckhorns and the rubber pad. Shooting VC/NVA would be a lawful purpose. Whether or not the "rec" guns made it into the field would be better answered by others.

Always interesting to see the things that were carried.

 

[Flint62a1]

Kugler said they had a choice of rifles a heavy model 70 with either the Unertl or a 3-9 scope. He chose the 3-9, this was in 66, they also had M1sniper rifles. On the cover is a photo of him with the rifle, it looks like the stock has a wide forend and it's definitely the 3-9 scope on it.

 

[FatBoy]

I was an RTO for awhile when I came off the 60 crew. That 77 is on a 77 harness, so you can't carry both. I think this guy has the right idea, as I did something similar (BTW, on my 3rd back surgery). You cannot maneuver with an Alice on, especially with a PRC77, kic19, spare batteries, ammo and all your other shit. If shit kicks off, that dude is gonna cut the ruck off and get on with his killin'.

 

[sandwarrior]

I was an RTO (Plt) for a while too. Unless we were on a special operation, I never got to carry the prick77 on the dedicated carry paci. Even so, we attatched a regular buttpack up tight under the radio if we needed to carry extra stuff. Otherwise, note my avatar, That's how I always carried the radio. And, it was waterproofed, I noticed his was not.

On a happy note, You could always get Monday Night Football with a prick77. Down in Ft. Stweart, it was 6565.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I qualified shipboard enroute to 'Nam on the AN/PRC-25, and carried it on several night patrols out of the Northern Perimeter at Dong Ha in 1967. Looked partly the same as the photo in question, except I was probably good foot taller then the subject.

And...

If I had carried a bolt rifle, that hokey pack arrangement, and the Prick-25, I would probably have instantly become a candidate for a Section-8. IMHO, that is a staged photo for consumption by the home front.

When I carried the Prick-25, I shelved my M-14, and carried a .45; standard procedure in my Unit. I radio Op was supposed to be too busy with commo to concentrate of rifle marksmanship. One hand for the 45, the other for the handset.

Greg

 

[MilDot1960]

I had one of those scopes back around 1990, When you turn the Zoom ring a secondary Crosshair comes out from behind the normal one.

 

[FatBoy]

...Otherwise, note my avatar, That's how I always carried the radio....

The advantage of not being in Big Green. Spec Ops guys could do a lot of shit we never could. Namely, wearing patrol caps with the ruck on so you could actually lift your head to look through the sights if needed. Not possible with a Kevlar and a full pack while prone or prone~ish. Maneuvering with 60-130# of shit is suicide anyway.

They made us all shitcan our butt packs. Clinton's Army didn't wear anything that wasn't current issue. No butt packs. No jungle boots. God forbid you actually be able to move with extra ammo and chow when you have to cashe the rucksack, or have feet that dry. Fucking idiots....

I see a lot changed during the main efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan but I wonder how much damage 'Ø was able to do his last few years. Kicking out guys with tattoos was sign #1 that it was getting ugly.

 

[kraigWY]

I was in the 2/502 Inf 101st Abn Div 67-68. Each BN had a Recon Plt. I was with the Recondo's, the recon plt of the 2/502. We didn't wear helmets, we wore a black beret with the 101 Recon Patch. Useless except for wiping the sweat out of your eyes. Didn't wear the LBE either. Worked out of my ruck.

We had a sniper assigned to us for a bit, he carried a standard Model 70, in '06 with a fixed 4X Weaver, exactly like the top rifle in the below photo.

The AMU started using Model 70 Tgt Rifles in 308 in the mid to later 60s. The bottom rifle is one such rifle I got from the CMP Auction. It was Made in '65. I was set up with sight bases for an "across the course gun" and had blocks for the Unertl style scopes.

I never heard of and doubt the 308 Model 70s were used because that was about the time the AMU was fielding M21s. They were used on the rifle ranges.

Mine fields a Vortex 6-24 X 50. I use it in PR matches and HP 1000 yard any-rifle-any sight and with the Redfield Palma sights for the Any-rifle-iron-sights and a cross the course matches. Sucker shoots as good if not better then my RPR in 6.5 CM although I will confess I don't get the range with the 308 as I do with the 6.5.

I love my Winchesters, all of them.

 

[sandwarrior]

Kraig,

We all know the massive discontent on the civilian side for the post '63...fueled by Mr. Win 70 himself, Jack O'Connor. (added)

What was the general opinion in the military about the change? Sometimes I hear it was a big deal. Other times I hear it was a non-issue to the services using M-70s. Being as it wasn't a main weapon maybe the services just never formed an opinion?

 

[MilDot1960]

The advantage of not being in Big Green. Spec Ops guys could do a lot of shit we never could. Namely, wearing patrol caps with the ruck on so you could actually lift your head to look through the sights if needed. Not possible with a Kevlar and a full pack while prone or prone~ish. Maneuvering with 60-130# of shit is suicide anyway.

They made us all shitcan our butt packs. Clinton's Army didn't wear anything that wasn't current issue. No butt packs. No jungle boots. God forbid you actually be able to move with extra ammo and chow when you have to cashe the rucksack, or have feet that dry. Fucking idiots....

I see a lot changed during the main efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan but I wonder how much damage 'Ø was able to do his last few years. Kicking out guys with tattoos was sign #1 that it was getting ugly.

Yeah I read the Tattoo Regs last week which is stupid in a lot of ways, They won't be picking and choosing when the SHTF.

John.

 

[sandwarrior]

I never had tattoos, but kicking people out for having them was total bullshit. Pretty much a Clinton thing to stand on the sideline and judge like he knew what he was doing...not.

"People with tattoos can't serve, but people who drop their pants/zipper can do what they want."

 

[MilDot1960]

I never had tattoos, but kicking people out for having them was total bullshit. Pretty much a Clinton thing to stand on the sideline and judge like he knew what he was doing...not.

"People with tattoos can't serve, but people who drop their pants/zipper can do what they want."

wonder if "Monica" Clinton had Tattoos,, Oh wait Bill wouldn't Know would he, Lol.

 

[FatBoy]

It was Obama that did the shit.

 

[kraigWY]

Kraig,

We all know the massive discontent on the civilian side for the post '63...fueled by Mr. Win 70 himself, Jack O'Connor. (added)

What was the general opinion in the military about the change? Sometimes I hear it was a big deal. Other times I hear it was a non-issue to the services using M-70s. Being as it wasn't a main weapon maybe the services just never formed an opinion?

I know the AMU and other service teams used a lot of post 64 Model 70s. I have a lot of Model 70s, pre/post and FNs. Accuracy wise there isn't a whole lot of difference with all due respect to Mr. O'Connor.

I've bought two AMU post-64s from the CMP Auction Site, the 308 mentioned above and a 300 WM Barreled action. None of my Model 70s can compete with the 308 AMU gun. I put the barrowed action into the Bishop Stock of my 300 WM I used when I shot from the Guard. I didn't bed and fit it, as I got a fancy stock I'm working on for it. But it showed promise.

The smoothest actions in my stable is my 1949 Model 70 and my FN Model 70. its a toss up between the two. Smooth actions are nice, but that doesn't necessary mean they are more accurate, for example nothing is as smooth as my 1898 Springfield Krag, but its not the most accurate rifle I have by a long shot.

This is the first I've heard that the Services had an aversion to the post '64 Model 70s but then I've been out of the game for a while.

Chad Dixon might be able to shed more light on the subject.

In truth all of them shoot better then I do. I will say the AMU 308 Model 70 I have out shoots all my other rifles excluding my Mann device (Rem 700 in 5.56), including my 6.5 CM RPR. But to be honest I don't have the time behind the RPR that I do the Model 70.

If I can find another Action, I'd kind of like to build a Model 70 in 6.5 CM.

 

[sandwarrior]

All due respect to Mr. Jack O'Connor as well. He loved the pre-'64 and wasn't going down without a fight when the change came. And, FWIW, while he wasn't a bullet designer, he certainly recognised the importance of diameter vs.weight vs
speed in ballistics. Thus his many diatribes expounding the virtues of the .270. It was better when all the bullets were made the same. When it gets a 1-8" twist and long bullets, it may well be the front runner again.

Over the years it did not appear to me that the services had issues. But, I asked as I do hear individuals talking about it. My AMU rifle is a post-'63 that was chambered in .30-338. I unknowingly rechambered it to .308 Norma. It shoots absolutely lights out. It's one rifle I have that is very difficult for me to shoot better than it can. It has the best bedding job I've ever seen, too.
​​​​

 

[pmclaine]

My understanding was the complaints about post vs pre 64 focused on two things....

1. The loss of "craftsmanship" with pressed in checkering, cast metal instead of milled and utilizing less expensive construction methods. Sure I can understand this who wants less but what if less translates into more precise manufacturing and tighter tolerances. Seems to be a plus for making accurate shots. Probably wouldn't concern the military as long as it shoots.

2. The loss of controlled feed and the claw extractor was a hazard to people hunting dangerous game. Assuming "other people" to be dangerous game than it could be concerning to think of a fail to feed when your round pops out of the mag box lips and it doesn't go in the chamber. Big dangerous game hunters want that round getting captured under the claw and positively chambered even if the shooter happens to be loading the gun upside down. I guess it's a legit concern but has anyone heard any issues with push feed in 50 plus years of Remington 700 use by the military?

 

[sandwarrior]

pmc,

Reverse those issues in order of importance and that is exactly it.

I don't think it was widespread knowledge at the time, but that was when Winchester went to hammer forged barrels from cut rifled.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

pmc,

Reverse those issues in order of importance and that is exactly it.

I don't think it was widespread knowledge at the time, but that was when Winchester went to hammer forged barrels from cut rifled.

Interesting. What is it that seperates something like a Krieger from a Winchester cut barrel, if anything? Surely, even back then at the high water mark of production bolt action rifles in America, the barrels on average aint as good as what top tier modern cut rifled barrel makers are putting out today?? Not to say they werent good, but even at that time benchresters as well as the famed Carlos Hathcock himself were chucking the factory barrels for the likes of Douglas and Hart.

Garands, 1903s, and the like all came with cut barrels right?

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

I was in the 2/502 Inf 101st Abn Div 67-68. Each BN had a Recon Plt. I was with the Recondo's, the recon plt of the 2/502. We didn't wear helmets, we wore a black beret with the 101 Recon Patch. Useless except for wiping the sweat out of your eyes. Didn't wear the LBE either. Worked out of my ruck.

We had a sniper assigned to us for a bit, he carried a standard Model 70, in '06 with a fixed 4X Weaver, exactly like the top rifle in the below photo.

The AMU started using Model 70 Tgt Rifles in 308 in the mid to later 60s. The bottom rifle is one such rifle I got from the CMP Auction. It was Made in '65. I was set up with sight bases for an "across the course gun" and had blocks for the Unertl style scopes.

I never heard of and doubt the 308 Model 70s were used because that was about the time the AMU was fielding M21s. They were used on the rifle ranges.

Mine fields a Vortex 6-24 X 50. I use it in PR matches and HP 1000 yard any-rifle-any sight and with the Redfield Palma sights for the Any-rifle-iron-sights and a cross the course matches. Sucker shoots as good if not better then my RPR in 6.5 CM although I will confess I don't get the range with the 308 as I do with the 6.5.

I love my Winchesters, all of them.

Mr Kraig, youre a fckn badass! Did you have anything to do with the actual Recondo school? And if so, was it as crazy as the documentaries portray? Also, what seperated you and your dudes from the LRRP units if there was any difference at all..? Did you ever get to work with any spook types or secretive gentlemen carrying Swedish Ks? Very cool sir.

 

[kraigWY]

Mr Kraig, youre a fckn badass! Did you have anything to do with the actual Recondo school? And if so, was it as crazy as the documentaries portray? Also, what seperated you and your dudes from the LRRP units if there was any difference at all..? Did you ever get to work with any spook types or secretive gentlemen carrying Swedish Ks? Very cool sir.

When I went to the Recondo's I had a date set for Recondo School, IF WE HAD THE PEOPLE, to allow me to go. Our TO&E called for 44 people in our platoon. We never came close to that number, so no I didn't go to Recondo School.

what seperated you and your dudes from the LRRP units

The name.

Never met any one carrying Swedish K's. Regardless of what we see on the internet, the M16A1's and their little brother, the CAR were quite effective and popular.

 

[sandwarrior]

I agree with Kraig. The love of Swedish K's seems to more of a movie thing. It certainly wasn't an "American" thing. You'd find them in armory's of various units, but ops that called for a sub machine gun (in my day 10 yes after VN) used Car-15's first then MP5's. Prior to that M3's we're used a lot. When I went to Scuba school in '83, SF armory's had a bunch of them waiting to get crushed.

I don't if they ever did. I would assume so knowing what Pres.' Reagan, Bush Sr. and Clinton destroyed. The biggest travesty being the 1.5M M-14's.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Oh I wouldnt a 9mm to be anything near the effectiveness of any rifle round. But I remember reading this piece by Major Dick Culver where he kinda made it almost seem like every spook in Nam carried a Swedish K. That was the vibe anyway, funny article wish I could find it again.

 

[sandwarrior]

Interesting. What is it that seperates something like a Krieger from a Winchester cut barrel, if anything? Surely, even back then at the high water mark of production bolt action rifles in America, the barrels on average aint as good as what top tier modern cut rifled barrel makers are putting out today?? Not to say they werent good, but even at that time benchresters as well as the famed Carlos Hathcock himself were chucking the factory barrels for the likes of Douglas and Hart.

Garands, 1903s, and the like all came with cut barrels right?

Quality control and the time to make it so. The need to hold tolerances in the ten thousandths vs low thousandths. The time it takes to change tooling to maintain a tighter tolerance across the board. The time it takes to slow down cuts to maintain sharpness of tooling.

In spite of vast improvement in machine technology for off the shelf products, the QC in custom barrels is still better.
​​​​​​

 

[USMCSGT0331]

There are accounts of M70's with marksman stocks and Douglas barrels being used in Vietnam, so I figure some pics would fit this thread. These are all original USMC items. The barrels in the pics below started as Douglas blanks and were turned into finished barrels by the RTE Marines in the 1960's. Most of the stocks have serial numbers stamped on the bottom of the grip. You can add serial numbers 46812, 47028 and 47811 to the known numbers listed in Death From Afar vol. 1. I just snagged 2 more stocks from a friend this past weekend, one of them is marked JRB 0000 on the grip. I asked Chandler what this stood for, he said it was a team gun issued to a USMC shooter named James R. Bowen.

I'll get better pics taken in the future. As for the A1 stock in the pics, I just included that in the photos because there is a well known picture of Carlos Hathcock holding an A1 built on an M70 receiver. Figured it would be cool to see a mock-up with an A1 stock and M70 Douglas barrel.

 

[sandwarrior]

USMCSGT0331,
Could you include a pic of the breech faces?

 

[sandwarrior]

Here's a few of my dream guns from that time period.
At the NRA Whittington Center. Love these rifles. Somewhere in here is a target rifle with the standard barrel and target stock.

 

[MTFalconer]

Dragging this one out of mothballs. Any idea what the mounts were on the M70's with the 3-9 "marine Scope"? I had a short conversation with my father, Army Sniper in Vietnam, and he couldn't remember. He did distinctly remember some of his USMC shooter friends having family send them scopes to use on their rifle as the ones issued often times were, in his terms.... " Shit-Tay". Anyway, they would turn them in to the armorers who would scrawl USMC on them somewhere with an electric pencil and call it good. He also alluded that there wasn't really a "standard" more than whatever they could make last. The issued scoped were fairly fragile and once dropped in water was pretty much useless. He also said he saw a bunch of weavers as well as redfield and tasco.

 

[sandwarrior]

It's a good one to dig out.

In any case, they used Redfield (we now know them as Leupold) bases and rings.
https://www.m40rifle.com/index.php?r...s-lots-of-pics.

USMCSGT0331 is an excellent resource on these. Tokiwarth too, and some others I haven't seen post in a while.

 

[MTFalconer]

I am lucky enough to have a good amount of stuff that he brought back with him. I just wish he could remember some of the other stuff that he saw, we'd be able to verify this stuff first hand. He did tell me that the external adjustment scopes (unertl, litschert,swift) were absolutely horrible field scopes. Those that had them issued removed them almost immediately. Everyone in country there much preferred the 3-9 of various makers. Very rarely did they get the opportunity to shoot farther than about 400 yards (per him). He has told me on several occasions his favorite rifle was an M-21issued with the 3-9 ART camputer scope. To them it was as much about durability as accuracy and apparently the M-21 was rock solid and had the ability to provide covering fire as well as surgical. Just thought I would toss that in there.

 

[pmclaine]

The first person accounts are what I thrive on. The inanimate object does not really tell the story of how it was used, fielded , relied upon.

Thing is that to the guys that used the items they were just tools. Issued tools at that they assumed (rightfully so) came from the lowest bidder and was likely to be junk no matter how effective we find them to be shooting paper from the antiseptic environment of a bench or shooting mat.

Whatever your Dad has to enlighten us would be great stuff.

Thank him for his service and say Welcome Home for me.

 

[MTFalconer]

I gues I am lucky in the respect that equipment and rifles are some of the only stuff he will talk with me about. All of my family get t honestly, my grandfather was a ranger/sniper in WWII...my uncles and father were all ranger/SF/Recon marine in Vietnam and to my generation with myself and two of my cousins being either weapons SGTs, snipers or Scout/snipers. There's a LOT of history there. My grandfather has passed but other than that I can usually make a phone call to verify any of the equipment questions or at least get what they can remember. Back in those days he said My grandfather and a few other family members of soldiers essentially kept his unit running. Either with scopes, mounts...hell even rifles being shipped in from the states as mail. He had the opportunity to call home about once a month and that was usually what they talked about. Equipment list for himself and his men. Then my grandfather would scour the countryside putting the order together to send out. My dad would just send his pay home or put what little money they had together to try and cover some of the costs. The best thing my dad said he ever received was a then new tech called TUPPERWARE.....LOL. The guys in his unit almost immediately fell all over themselves for smaller pieces of Tupperware to use in the field. I always laughed at that. Tupperware, winning hearts and minds....LOL

 

[MTFalconer]

I've been working on m-70 replica just for funzies, although it isn't a pre-64 it should look the part. Dad says he had a weaver scope squirreled away that was one that he brought back from Viet nam that he is sending to go on top. I'm interested to see it.

 

[MTFalconer]

I agree with Kraig. The love of Swedish K's seems to more of a movie thing. It certainly wasn't an "American" thing. You'd find them in armory's of various units, but ops that called for a sub machine gun (in my day 10 yes after VN) used Car-15's first then MP5's. Prior to that M3's we're used a lot. When I went to Scuba school in '83, SF armory's had a bunch of them waiting to get crushed.

I don't if they ever did. I would assume so knowing what Pres.' Reagan, Bush Sr. and Clinton destroyed. The biggest travesty being the 1.5M M-14's.

On a related note I was at the AMU in 92-93? When they were clearing out a couple arms lockers of parts. They were stripping 1911's and tossing the frame in one box and all the other parts in another. A few hours later I was asked to help move a few boxes to the steel scrap bins. You got it, boxes of 1911 parts without the frame. One of those "Might" have made it to my truck seat instead of the steel bin. I can neither confirm or deny. I have heard of a few such "cleanings" at various posts. One was of M1A match rifle parts at Benning. I KNOW FOR A FACT that about 75 were stripped and tossed.....sadly I wasn't there to take advantage but I am fairly certain that none of that made it to scrap.

 

[Random Guy]

The best book on the use of Winchester Model 70s in the US military is Peter Senich's book,The One Round War, which outlines the original USMC interest in the Model 70 circa 1941, up to its use in 1965-66 in Vietnam by Carlos Hathcock and other USMC snipers before the M40s were available. The are generally 3 or 4 scopes that were used,

1. Unertl 8x scope (left over from WWII era)
2. Cheap Japanese 3-9x “”Marine" scope purchased at a PX in Okinawa. (I think this was an early Bushnell or Tasco scope, and there might have been only 12 scopes purchased as 3rd Marine Divsion only had 12 M70s at the time, whcih was early 1966.. Soon after they got the Unertl scopes).
3. Either a Unertl 10x or reportedly a Lyman Super Target Spot 10x or 12x presumably from the 1950/s1960s era and were on some USMC match M70 rifles)
4. Also, some ad hoc M84 scopes were apparently mounted as seen in that pic of this thread, but no documentation exists re that configuration, which was clearly a hunting rifle, possibly a recreational base rifle (ie, 'special services rilfe') acquired from Okinawa as well.

Last year I built a replica of a USMC M70 sniper but it has a 10x Lyamn Super TargetSpot scope. I have a 10x Unertl for it but need to reassemble mounts.

(Last pic is someone's else's M70 replica with the sporter stock - kept the picture as I always liked it...)

 

[pmclaine]

I've been working on m-70 replica just for funzies, although it isn't a pre-64 it should look the part. Dad says he had a weaver scope squirreled away that was one that he brought back from Viet nam that he is sending to go on top. I'm interested to see it.

Latest issue of Garand Collectors Association had an article concerning CMP sales of scopes some time ago. They had brand new Weaver K4Bs in M1D mounts.

The K Weavers were nice scopes.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

The best book on the use of Winchester Model 70s in the US military is Peter Senich's book,The One Round War, which outlines the original USMC interest in the Model 70 circa 1941, up to its use in 1965-66 in Vietnam by Carlos Hathcock and other USMC snipers before the M40s were available. The are generally 3 or 4 scopes that were used,

Unertl 8x scope (left over from WWII era)
Cheap Japanese 3-9 "Marine" scope purchased at a PX in Okinawa. (I think this was an early Tasco scope, and there might have been only 12 scopes purchased as 3rd Marine Divsion only had 12 M70s at the time, whcih was early 1966.. Soon after they got the Unertl scopes).
Either a Unertl 10x or reportedly a Lyman Super Target Spot 10x or 12x presumably from the 1950/s1960s era and were on some USMC match M70 rifles)
(Also, some ad hoc M84 scopes were mounted as seen in that pic of this thread, but no documentation exists re that configuration, which was clearly a hunting rifle.)

Last year I built a replica of a USMC M70 sniper but it has a 10x Lyamn Super TargetSPot scope. I have a 10x Unertl for it but need to reassemble mounts.

(Last pic is someone's else's M70 replica with the sporter stock - kept the picture as I always liked it...)

What parts,etc did you use on the M70 build? Ie did you get ahold of a original M70 target barrel? Or did you go Douglas?

 

[MTFalconer]

Latest issue of Garand Collectors Association had an article concerning CMP sales of scopes some time ago. They had brand new Weaver K4Bs in M1D mounts.

The K Weavers were nice scopes.

I'm thinking this one is 3-9 power, not certain and neither was he until he digs it out of whatever box it's hopefully in. Didn't weaver initiate the variable power scope? I remember reading something on that, they brought the first ones to the market.

 

[Marksman]

The Winchester M70 with Unertl 8X scope was used early in the Vietnam conflict by all branches but never officially adopted as a sniper rifle. Later, the Remington 700 with 3x9 green anodized scope with accu-range reticle was officially adopted. Here is my Winchester M70 with redfield 3x9 scope.

I know it's an old post, but can you give any details on that stock?

 

[Random Guy]

"What parts,etc did you use on the M70 build? Ie did you get ahold of a original M70 target barrel? Or did you go Douglas?"

Here's what I used;
The base rifle was a 1956 Winchester Model 70 Featherweight in 308W. It also had a Bushnell 3200 Elite scope and Leupold mount with rings. Typical used hunting rifle, but price was right at $750. I sold the Feather weight stock, 308W barrel, aluminum Featherweight bottom metal and Leupold scope mount w/ rings on eBay for about $400. (Kept scope as a spare)

(On EDIT: Added some pics of the project from 2016)
Substituted these parts:
1. Vintage Winchester Marksman stock that had the wide forend sanded slightly thinner, but still a flat bottom stock. Original metal buttplate.
2. Douglas premium air-gauged 24" barrel that mimics the original WRA "medium-heavy" barrel profile (0.79" at muzzle, 24" in length, 1:10 twist)
(I did recently find and purchase an excellent 1956 dated Winchester target barrel in 30-06, so its my spare barrel for this rifle)
3. Front and rear scope blocks from Steve Earle (nice guy and very nice parts)
4. Bought steel pre-64 bottom metal, standard length follower, ejector and standard length magazine box on eBay for the 308W to 30-06 caliber change.
5. Bought a Lyman 10x and a Unertl 10x vintage scope, but wanted black mounts for the Unertl, which took a while, and will mount the Unertl this winter.
6.Sling is a vintage 1907 with an MRT date of 4-63, to give it a Vietnam era look.

Gunsmith headspaced barrel to minimum dimensions (1.940-1.941”), he did a trigger job, re-blued action and barrel with a brushed 'satin' blue finish that is appropriate for a military weapon (instead of typical more polished blue finish as seen on commercial rifles), and bedded action to the Marksman stock.

Its a now a nice Vietnam-era USMC replica sniper rifle and capable of 0.7" MOA at 200 yrds with handloads.

PS: The last two pics are from one Peter Senich's book of Capt William Brophy taken during the Korean War in 1952. He took a commercial M70 in 30-06 with the heavy bull barrel (28" in length) and a large objective 10x Unertl target scope to the Korean front lines, and showed that his commercial rifle and match ammo - in the hands of a skilled marksman - could can be used for 1,000+ yard sniping activity. This was considered phenomenal at the time, as snipers in the Korean War typically limited engagements to within 600 or maybe 700 yards max due to the limitations of the rifles and optics used at that time. Just an fiyi...

 

[buffalowinter]

Marksman, the stock is a factory Model 70 from the 1970's-1980's. I'm not really sure of the exact date but it is the stock of the original M70 that the build is based on. Refinished, barrel channel enlarged, and action glass bedded.

 

[MTFalconer]

I built mine with a post 64 long action, Krieger barrel, timney trigger and boyds unfinished walnut stock that I opened up to a heavy varmint channel and bedded with marine-Tex. Cerakote to black/blue to replicate the parkerized/blued look of the originals. I still need scope mounts, sling and scope from my dad hopefully. I am hoping it is serviceable honestly. To his recollection it had some miles in the jungle on it but should be OK. Mine will be a shooter so it will get some miles.

 

[VaRandy]

Interesting. What is it that seperates something like a Krieger from a Winchester cut barrel, if anything? Surely, even back then at the high water mark of production bolt action rifles in America, the barrels on average aint as good as what top tier modern cut rifled barrel makers are putting out today?? Not to say they werent good, but even at that time benchresters as well as the famed Carlos Hathcock himself were chucking the factory barrels for the likes of Douglas and Hart.

Garands, 1903s, and the like all came with cut barrels right?

I was fortunate enough to meet Hatcheck in his home and witnessed his M70 awarded to him for his service. It did have the Unertyl 8 on it and it looked VERY used!I may have been the first to show him a early Nightforce 5 to 22 with LIGHTED RETICULES. He cradled it and his eyes returned to somewhere a long way away and to visualize what it would have meant to him in the field. I still wish I had had the money personally to give him that scope. What a great man he was.