Vintage M1C Sniper Video

[Trigger Monkey]

Another vid got posted a little bit ago, I'm starting to really like his stuff.

 

[BScore]

Robski has been killing it on his new channel!

 

[cplnorton]

I didn't watch the video, but the M1C was really a failure by Ordnance standards. They had a substantial problem with them, but it was just because the area of the receiver where the base was attached, was never uniform.

It caused so many problems because it took so much custom work to make one shoot even as well as a standard M1. They were horrible.

In contrast the M1D was easily mass produced and made consistent results.

Though I admit I do like the M1C in appearance over the M1D, but in function Ordnance had a horrible time with them.

 

[pmclaine]

How bout the MC-1?

Me thinks the scope was ahead of its time.

 

[cplnorton]

How bout the MC-1?

Me thinks the scope was ahead of its time.

The Marines loved the scope but was it was doomed from the start. It was developed for Korea, but arrived too late for the war, so it sat in storage because no one knew how to use them.

There wasn't a sniper school or any sniper training during the whole tenure of the M1952 sniper rifle. Since Korea was done, they just sat until the Marines were like why do we even have these rifles, no one knows how to use them. So they decided to get rid of them all. Of course they got rid of them several years before Vietnam, and then Vietnam happened and they were scrambling to find a suitable rifle to form sniper schools in Vietnam. Which entered the M1D and Model 70 to start in 30:06, with sniper rifle trials to find a suitable replacement rifle in 7.62 cal.

 

[Random Guy]

A few notes about the US Army’s interest in the Stith/Kollmorgen Bear Cub 4x scope.

While never adopted by the U.S. Army, it should be noted that the Stith/Kollmorgen Bear Cub 4x Telescope with crosshair reticle and the Pachmayr ‘Lo-Swing’ Telescope mount, was evaluated in 1953 and was formally recommended by the U.S. Army Infantry Board (USAIB) as the replacement for the M84 scopes on the M1C sniper rifles of that era. As noted in R. Blake Steven’s book, U.S. Rifle M14: From John Garand to the M21, (1982), page 274:

“Office, Chief of Army Field Forces approved the recommendation of the USAIB and recommended that the Stith Telescope and Pachmayr Mount be classified Standard Type (STD A in today’s phraseology) and issued to replace the M84 telescope and M1C mount. However, no procurement action took place.”

My guess as to why no procurement activity took place? Well, around that same time period circa 1953, the Army decided to replace the M1C sniper rifles with the less complex, simpler to manufacture M1D rifles, and thus procuring new mounts and scopes for the soon-to-be obsolete M1C rifles may have been deemed as superfluous. Moreover, in July 1953 the Korean War ended in a more-or-less truce, and perhaps the demand for upgraded M1C sniper rifles dissipated after the cease fire.

Regardless, the Korean War appears to have been the last time M1C sniper rifles were widely used by U.S. Army forces. Pictures of post-1953 Army personnel show the M1D type sniper rifles with M84 scopes. (As noted above, the USMC M1952 sniper rifle was in the inventory after Korea but not widely used).

Although not adopted in 1953, the military’s interest in using the Kollmorgen Bear Cub 4X scope apparently continued into the M14 program. Blake Steven’s excellent book shows pictures of several experimental Pachmayr ‘Lo-Swing’ mounts that were tested on prototype M14 rifles at Fort Benning, GA circa 1958. Of the eight telescopes and experimental Lo-Swing mounts that were evaluated in this Nov 1958 report, one of them is listed as the “Hinged Scope Mount Assembly (SAD 40577) for Kollmorgen Bear Cub telescope.” (Source: Blake Stevens, U.S. Rifle M14: From John Garand to the M21, page 275.)

Fast forward to 1966, in an order to satisfy the urgent requirement in Southeast Asia (SEA) for a telescope-equipped sniper rifle, the U.S. Army Weapons Command tested a hinged version of an M14 scope mount with the M84 scope. The experimental hinged mount apparently had some deficiencies was not adopted, and AWC subsequently developed a simpler, fixed scope mount that was used in quantity in Vietnam, beginning in 1967. However, the U.S. Army’s 1966 report again determined that the M84 scope was the “least suitable element” of the proposed M14 sniper rifle system, and made a reference to the previous recommendation regarding the Bear Cub 4X scope:

“As a result of a test conducted by USAIB in 1953 (the last conducted by USAIB on sniper scopes), it was recommended that the Stith Bear Cub 4X Telescope and the Pachmayr Lo-Swing mount with minor modifications, be standardized and that they replace the M84 telescope and mount. The results of this current product improvement test led to no change in the USAIB’s previously stated conclusions regarding the M84 telescope…

Conclusions: US Army Infantry Board concludes that: The hinged telescope mount for the M14 rifle will not be suitable for sniper rifle use in SEA until the deficiencies and as many of the shortcomings as feasible are corrected...The M84 telescope is unsuitable for use as a sniper rifle telescope, except under some low light-level conditions…A variable power telescope or one with a minimum of 4X magnification is needed in the sniper rifle role. Provision for adjustment of the telescope to obtain proper eye relief is also needed.”

So the Kollmorgen Bear Cub 4X scope was apparently almost adopted as the replacement for M84s scopes around 1953; it was again tested by the Army on prototype M14 sniper rifles in 1958 at Fort Benning, and it was even mentioned in a 1966 report on the inadequacies of the M84 scope.

 

[pmclaine]

View attachment 7748180View attachment 7748174

A few notes about the US Army’s interest in the Stith/Kollmorgen Bear Cub 4x scope.

While never adopted by the U.S. Army, it should be noted that the Stith/Kollmorgen Bear Cub 4x Telescope with crosshair reticle and the Pachmayr ‘Lo-Swing’ Telescope mount, was evaluated in 1953 and was formally recommended by the U.S. Army Infantry Board (USAIB) as the replacement for the M84 scopes on the M1C sniper rifles of that era. As noted in R. Blake Steven’s book, U.S. Rifle M14: From John Garand to the M21, (1982), page 274:


My guess as to why no procurement activity took place? Well, around that same time period circa 1953, the Army decided to replace the M1C sniper rifles with the less complex, simpler to manufacture M1D rifles, and thus procuring new mounts and scopes for the soon-to-be obsolete M1C rifles may have been deemed as superfluous. Moreover, in July 1953 the Korean War ended in a more-or-less truce, and perhaps the demand for upgraded M1C sniper rifles dissipated after the cease fire.

Regardless, the Korean War appears to have been the last time M1C sniper rifles were widely used by U.S. Army forces. Pictures of post-1953 Army personnel show the M1D type sniper rifles with M84 scopes. (As noted above, the USMC M1952 sniper rifle was in the inventory after Korea but not widely used).

Although not adopted in 1953, the military’s interest in using the Kollmorgen Bear Cub 4X scope apparently continued into the M14 program. Blake Steven’s excellent book shows pictures of several experimental Pachmayr ‘Lo-Swing’ mounts that were tested on prototype M14 rifles at Fort Benning, GA circa 1958. Of the eight telescopes and experimental Lo-Swing mounts that were evaluated in this Nov 1958 report, one of them is listed as the “Hinged Scope Mount Assembly (SAD 40577) for Kollmorgen Bear Cub telescope.” (Source: Blake Stevens, U.S. Rifle M14: From John Garand to the M21, page 275.)



Fast forward to 1966, in an order to satisfy the urgent requirement in Southeast Asia (SEA) for a telescope-equipped sniper rifle, the U.S. Army Weapons Command tested a hinged version of an M14 scope mount with the M84 scope. The experimental hinged mount apparently had some deficiencies was not adopted, and AWC subsequently developed a simpler, fixed scope mount that was used in quantity in Vietnam, beginning in 1967. However, the U.S. Army’s 1966 report again determined that the M84 scope was the “least suitable element” of the proposed M14 sniper rifle system, and made a reference to the previous recommendation regarding the Bear Cub 4X scope:


So the Kollmorgen Bear Cub 4X scope was apparently almost adopted as the replacement for M84s scopes around 1953; it was again tested by the Army on prototype M14 sniper rifles in 1958 at Fort Benning, and it was even mentioned in a 1966 report on the inadequacies of the M84 scope.

I wish they had of adopted it so those scopes might be more available at a better price.

You and I have spoken about these scopes before....I still have my capped turret one that is clear as crystal and needs to get mated up with my 10-22 one of these days.

 

[cplnorton]

As Random Guy said, the Army tested and bought some of the "Marine Kollmorgen" and bear cub scopes for trials but it was doomed just like the Marine version. There wasn't a war and no real need for them, especially since there wasn't an official sniper school for any branch at the time. Plus this was happening when there was an incredible amount of change happening in all avenues of the weapon systems. So it was really bad timing as they were focused on everything but sniper rifles.

Every couple years in between the wars, you see both the Army and Marines do an evaluation on some type of sniper rifle or scope combo, or you really see them focus on the fact do they really need a sniper at all?

Both branches tested pretty much every commercial scope at this time. It wasn't just the Kollmorgen.

All the trials seem to end in the same results, snipers could be useful, but there is no real need in peacetime, and there is no formal training program for a sniper so that equaled no real need.

Plus both branches were focused on the switch to 7.62 to meet Nato requirements and that is what they spent the greater part of the later 50's and early 60's focusing on.

They basically swapped every rifle platform they had at the time and there was just a lot of "NEW" coming in and it was hard to focus on such a small need of a sniper rifle, compared to all the "entire change in weapons" that was happening.

Even though you always see the Marines loved the M14, that is not what the documents show. They were very, very reluctant to give up the M1 Garand and were really happy with the rifle. But they were required to do so to switch all rifles to 7.62. They wanted so bad to switch the M1, BAR, and 1919 to 7.62 but just never found a conversion that they were happy with.

It was actually a really interesting time reading all those docs because everything was changing. Which is most likely why nothing sniper related every really went anywhere. It was just a case of a very small niche caught in the middle of everything changing. It was bad timing.