I have read great things about this scope, and it seems everybody says they are a great buy for the money, but what is the general opinion on their suitability in a law enforcement or military role? Can they hold up to getting banged around in the trunk of a patrol car? Are they as durable as a Nightforce or Mark 4? All the info I have found on it seems to have the intended use of paper punching and or range use, nothing serious. I know they are not "proven" yet, but Nightforce and Leupold were new once too.
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Rifle Scopes Viper PST law enforcement/military use
- Thread starter CBR
- Start date
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
Good question. I wwould like to know myself. The Razors from what I hear are quite durable. I wonder if that has found it's way in to the PST line as well.
Good question. I wwould like to know myself. The Razors from what I hear are quite durable. I wonder if that has found it's way in to the PST line as well.
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
Maybe we could get Lowlight to do a test and eval. I'm sure Vortex would cough one up if they believe in them.
Maybe we could get Lowlight to do a test and eval. I'm sure Vortex would cough one up if they believe in them.
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CBR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A video like Lowlight did on that Bushnell 4200 3-12 would be nice, wouldn't it? </div></div>Hate to say it but i dont believe thats gonna happen. Makes you wonder.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CBR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A video like Lowlight did on that Bushnell 4200 3-12 would be nice, wouldn't it? </div></div>Hate to say it but i dont believe thats gonna happen. Makes you wonder.
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: drb5r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CBR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A video like Lowlight did on that Bushnell 4200 3-12 would be nice, wouldn't it? </div></div>Hate to say it but i dont believe thats gonna happen. Makes you wonder. </div></div>
How do you know that?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: drb5r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CBR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A video like Lowlight did on that Bushnell 4200 3-12 would be nice, wouldn't it? </div></div>Hate to say it but i dont believe thats gonna happen. Makes you wonder. </div></div>
How do you know that?
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
I ask guys this one question when they want to put personal optics on a patrol rifle, are you prepared to turn it over to IA when you use it in the line of duty. As you know it won't be handled delicately, and it will be out of your possession until the investigation is completed.
I ask guys this one question when they want to put personal optics on a patrol rifle, are you prepared to turn it over to IA when you use it in the line of duty. As you know it won't be handled delicately, and it will be out of your possession until the investigation is completed.
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dantrom</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: drb5r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CBR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A video like Lowlight did on that Bushnell 4200 3-12 would be nice, wouldn't it? </div></div>Hate to say it but i dont believe thats gonna happen. Makes you wonder. </div></div>
How do you know that? </div></div>Dont know just speculating.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dantrom</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: drb5r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CBR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A video like Lowlight did on that Bushnell 4200 3-12 would be nice, wouldn't it? </div></div>Hate to say it but i dont believe thats gonna happen. Makes you wonder. </div></div>
How do you know that? </div></div>Dont know just speculating.
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Witch Doctor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I ask guys this one question when they want to put personal optics on a patrol rifle, are you prepared to turn it over to IA when you use it in the line of duty. As you know it won't be handled delicately, and it will be out of your possession until the investigation is completed. </div></div>
Never did get that argument. We have a lot of guys who say that about carrying a personal AR on duty. My opinion... if the time comes that I have to use it, then I needed it, and I want the best equipment I can get.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Witch Doctor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I ask guys this one question when they want to put personal optics on a patrol rifle, are you prepared to turn it over to IA when you use it in the line of duty. As you know it won't be handled delicately, and it will be out of your possession until the investigation is completed. </div></div>
Never did get that argument. We have a lot of guys who say that about carrying a personal AR on duty. My opinion... if the time comes that I have to use it, then I needed it, and I want the best equipment I can get.
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
lowlight already blew up, drowned, and carpet bombed a razor (trying to think of a good way to say "dropped it of a huge ass scaffold"). It kept on ticking, thats good enough for me... I would doubt their #2 line would be built with a huge cut in quality of construction. I would guess the glass quality, amount of adjustment (30 vs. 35mm tube), and outer scope anodizing would be the largest differences between the two. But that is just my speculation.
lowlight already blew up, drowned, and carpet bombed a razor (trying to think of a good way to say "dropped it of a huge ass scaffold"). It kept on ticking, thats good enough for me... I would doubt their #2 line would be built with a huge cut in quality of construction. I would guess the glass quality, amount of adjustment (30 vs. 35mm tube), and outer scope anodizing would be the largest differences between the two. But that is just my speculation.
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AJBello</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Witch Doctor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I ask guys this one question when they want to put personal optics on a patrol rifle, are you prepared to turn it over to IA when you use it in the line of duty. As you know it won't be handled delicately, and it will be out of your possession until the investigation is completed. </div></div>
Never did get that argument. We have a lot of guys who say that about carrying a personal AR on duty. My opinion... if the time comes that I have to use it, then I needed it, and I want the best equipment I can get. </div></div>
Not an arguement, fact of carrying personal equipment for work. If your department allows you to carry a patrol rifle, but doesn't issue them, then that is a fact of life the officer will need to come to terms with. Many departments that issue patrol rifles do not allow optics, others do at the expense to the officer. Unfortunately in a Use of Force investigation, IA doesn't usualy allow you to remove the optic before they take it into evidence. A personal optic costing between $600 and $1,200 sitting in the evidence locker for 8-12 months can be a bit frustrating for many officers who don't think about it. Not to mention the slugs that usually work in any departments evidence room aren't going to take care of it either. Again, just the facts that many don't consider.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AJBello</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Witch Doctor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I ask guys this one question when they want to put personal optics on a patrol rifle, are you prepared to turn it over to IA when you use it in the line of duty. As you know it won't be handled delicately, and it will be out of your possession until the investigation is completed. </div></div>
Never did get that argument. We have a lot of guys who say that about carrying a personal AR on duty. My opinion... if the time comes that I have to use it, then I needed it, and I want the best equipment I can get. </div></div>
Not an arguement, fact of carrying personal equipment for work. If your department allows you to carry a patrol rifle, but doesn't issue them, then that is a fact of life the officer will need to come to terms with. Many departments that issue patrol rifles do not allow optics, others do at the expense to the officer. Unfortunately in a Use of Force investigation, IA doesn't usualy allow you to remove the optic before they take it into evidence. A personal optic costing between $600 and $1,200 sitting in the evidence locker for 8-12 months can be a bit frustrating for many officers who don't think about it. Not to mention the slugs that usually work in any departments evidence room aren't going to take care of it either. Again, just the facts that many don't consider.
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not an arguement, fact of carrying personal equipment for work. If your department allows you to carry a patrol rifle, but doesn't issue them, then that is a fact of life the officer will need to come to terms with. Many departments that issue patrol rifles do not allow optics, others do at the expense to the officer. Unfortunately in a Use of Force investigation, IA doesn't usualy allow you to remove the optic before they take it into evidence. A personal optic costing between $600 and $1,200 sitting in the evidence locker for 8-12 months can be a bit frustrating for many officers who don't think about it. Not to mention the slugs that usually work in any departments evidence room aren't going to take care of it either. Again, just the facts that many don't consider. </div></div>
Good point, but for those of us that work for small departments and have to supply our own equipment it something that we have to live with.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not an arguement, fact of carrying personal equipment for work. If your department allows you to carry a patrol rifle, but doesn't issue them, then that is a fact of life the officer will need to come to terms with. Many departments that issue patrol rifles do not allow optics, others do at the expense to the officer. Unfortunately in a Use of Force investigation, IA doesn't usualy allow you to remove the optic before they take it into evidence. A personal optic costing between $600 and $1,200 sitting in the evidence locker for 8-12 months can be a bit frustrating for many officers who don't think about it. Not to mention the slugs that usually work in any departments evidence room aren't going to take care of it either. Again, just the facts that many don't consider. </div></div>
Good point, but for those of us that work for small departments and have to supply our own equipment it something that we have to live with.
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
Witch Doctor, You have a valid point, but that makes going with a PST that much more attractive. Many departments dont issue the greatest equipment, so if you want good equipment, you buy it yourself. Having a $850 PST in evidence looks much better than having a $2300 Nightforce F1 in evidence for a year.
Witch Doctor, You have a valid point, but that makes going with a PST that much more attractive. Many departments dont issue the greatest equipment, so if you want good equipment, you buy it yourself. Having a $850 PST in evidence looks much better than having a $2300 Nightforce F1 in evidence for a year.
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
Most LE department don't have the funds, time, recourses or expertise to test equipment like optics, ammo and weapons. You can see this with departments following the military, or the FBI on 9mm, 10mm, Bullet Brand, ARs etc... Sometimes we learn that they were wrong for the LE application. However, they spend millions testing equipment that most LE departments just can't do. Their studies are most often released and then we use them. On top of that, we are also reactive. We respond to the most recent events, such as body armor failure, California Shoot Out, 9-11, etc…
You need to think about the purpose of your optics. In civilian LE the purpose for deploying any weapon is the protection of life. Either yours or someone else’s. Weapon System failure is not a little disappointing it is catastrophic.
There were comments about buying your own and releasing it to IA, following a shoot. I would worry more about releasing my home in a civil case, or telling the mass media how you saved a couple hundred dollars on a piece of equipment that will last forever.
Not having a choice, like the LA shootout is one thing. Times are tough, but not that tough. If you can come up with the money to buy the rest of the system, ammo and train, you can probably squeeze out a few hundred more for combat proven optics.
If you are plinking or just want to try one out, then go for it. If you want to test it in the field over months of various weather conditions, elevation changes, being tossed around inside a trunk, dropped, mishandled and exposed to a myriad of other conditions, I would love to know the results.
You mentioned Leupold and NF were new once too. I think Leupold was new 104 years ago. NF went straight for the top of the line in 92. They did not get into optics for bird watching and then branch off into rifle scopes. Vortex may one day become the best, but they have to earn the respect and confidence that these other companies already mastered.
Most LE department don't have the funds, time, recourses or expertise to test equipment like optics, ammo and weapons. You can see this with departments following the military, or the FBI on 9mm, 10mm, Bullet Brand, ARs etc... Sometimes we learn that they were wrong for the LE application. However, they spend millions testing equipment that most LE departments just can't do. Their studies are most often released and then we use them. On top of that, we are also reactive. We respond to the most recent events, such as body armor failure, California Shoot Out, 9-11, etc…
You need to think about the purpose of your optics. In civilian LE the purpose for deploying any weapon is the protection of life. Either yours or someone else’s. Weapon System failure is not a little disappointing it is catastrophic.
There were comments about buying your own and releasing it to IA, following a shoot. I would worry more about releasing my home in a civil case, or telling the mass media how you saved a couple hundred dollars on a piece of equipment that will last forever.
Not having a choice, like the LA shootout is one thing. Times are tough, but not that tough. If you can come up with the money to buy the rest of the system, ammo and train, you can probably squeeze out a few hundred more for combat proven optics.
If you are plinking or just want to try one out, then go for it. If you want to test it in the field over months of various weather conditions, elevation changes, being tossed around inside a trunk, dropped, mishandled and exposed to a myriad of other conditions, I would love to know the results.
You mentioned Leupold and NF were new once too. I think Leupold was new 104 years ago. NF went straight for the top of the line in 92. They did not get into optics for bird watching and then branch off into rifle scopes. Vortex may one day become the best, but they have to earn the respect and confidence that these other companies already mastered.
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CBR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Can they hold up to getting banged around in the trunk of a patrol car? </div></div>
This is how mine got banged around in the trunk of my car:
http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=581931&highlight=
40gt
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CBR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Can they hold up to getting banged around in the trunk of a patrol car? </div></div>
This is how mine got banged around in the trunk of my car:
http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=581931&highlight=
40gt
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
That is great, I am glad it held up for you. It could have ruined your hunt and camping trip if it had failed. I am sure that helped you develop confidence in it.
I have seen a Leupold fall from a tree stand with no protection, bouncing on the tree,and ground and then still hold zero. Thirty years ago, I had a TASCO with a bent objective from being slammed in the car door, it still shot fine for squirrles. However, Before I placed a scope on a surgical Police Sniper rifle, I would like to hear of dozens of examples like this.
In the back of a police car, vibrations are all shift long, rapid accelerations, aggressive braking, temperature changes can range from below freezing to well over 100. There can be extreme changes in the same day. And most important, is you never know when you may have to pull it out and deploy it.
One failure on a police rifle and it could be on every news channel in America. You won't have to search a forum to find it.
On a police sniper rifle, we are not talking about ruining a hunt.
That is great, I am glad it held up for you. It could have ruined your hunt and camping trip if it had failed. I am sure that helped you develop confidence in it.
I have seen a Leupold fall from a tree stand with no protection, bouncing on the tree,and ground and then still hold zero. Thirty years ago, I had a TASCO with a bent objective from being slammed in the car door, it still shot fine for squirrles. However, Before I placed a scope on a surgical Police Sniper rifle, I would like to hear of dozens of examples like this.
In the back of a police car, vibrations are all shift long, rapid accelerations, aggressive braking, temperature changes can range from below freezing to well over 100. There can be extreme changes in the same day. And most important, is you never know when you may have to pull it out and deploy it.
One failure on a police rifle and it could be on every news channel in America. You won't have to search a forum to find it.
On a police sniper rifle, we are not talking about ruining a hunt.
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
I just got my new PST in and I like it and think its fits the bill nicely for what I am going to be using it for.
But make no mistake this scope is not a $2,000 night force that sells for under a grand. I am sure people will disagree with me but IMO it is not.
If my life counted on my scope doing everything its supposed to than i would spend the money on a higher end scope with a proven track record.
I really hope that these scope utimately proves to hold up under any situation and go on to set new standards for what can be achieved at this price point. But i think its way to early to say its there now
I just got my new PST in and I like it and think its fits the bill nicely for what I am going to be using it for.
But make no mistake this scope is not a $2,000 night force that sells for under a grand. I am sure people will disagree with me but IMO it is not.
If my life counted on my scope doing everything its supposed to than i would spend the money on a higher end scope with a proven track record.
I really hope that these scope utimately proves to hold up under any situation and go on to set new standards for what can be achieved at this price point. But i think its way to early to say its there now
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: usmc80</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If my life counted on my scope doing everything its supposed to than i would spend the money on a higher end scope with a proven track record.
I really hope that these scope utimately proves to hold up under any situation and go on to set new standards for what can be achieved at this price point. But i think its way to early to say its there now</div></div>
Bingo! We have a winner!
Right now it is too early. Things look promising but I would wait six months to a year. Let us get all the way through a summer and a winter. Let some of the early adopters who are willing to stick their neck out to use it first in an LE context provide some feedback.
I, too, hope that at this price point with this feature-set, the Viper PST will acquit itself well through extended use but the fact is... its just too soon to know right now.
If your or someone else's life depends on the use of the firearm and your optical platform working the first time, every time, then spend the money and get an optic which has that kind of dependable field experience behind it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: usmc80</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If my life counted on my scope doing everything its supposed to than i would spend the money on a higher end scope with a proven track record.
I really hope that these scope utimately proves to hold up under any situation and go on to set new standards for what can be achieved at this price point. But i think its way to early to say its there now</div></div>
Bingo! We have a winner!
Right now it is too early. Things look promising but I would wait six months to a year. Let us get all the way through a summer and a winter. Let some of the early adopters who are willing to stick their neck out to use it first in an LE context provide some feedback.
I, too, hope that at this price point with this feature-set, the Viper PST will acquit itself well through extended use but the fact is... its just too soon to know right now.
If your or someone else's life depends on the use of the firearm and your optical platform working the first time, every time, then spend the money and get an optic which has that kind of dependable field experience behind it.
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
one thing I can say is that they are a nice piece of glass at a good price and have the best customer service around IMHO
one thing I can say is that they are a nice piece of glass at a good price and have the best customer service around IMHO
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
WTF? Wait a minute. This thread is about police/military use. Whole different world.
Great customer service? What is the number, 1-800 oh shit? For extreme pucker factors press 1? Is there a different number for international calls?
For field ops in the military, customer service is out of the window. If it don’t work, grab your bayonet and call for artillery or a wart hog, not customer service.
What will customer service do during a hostage/barricade incident? If something goes wrong, I have a good idea what the attorneys will try to do to the person who made the decision to save money.
Put it on a hunting rifle, put it on a target rifle, put one on a compound bow.
If you are convinced that it is a great tactical scope ready for this level of application then put it on a sniper rifle.
But don’t put one on a police/military rifle because it has good customer service.
WTF? Wait a minute. This thread is about police/military use. Whole different world.
Great customer service? What is the number, 1-800 oh shit? For extreme pucker factors press 1? Is there a different number for international calls?
For field ops in the military, customer service is out of the window. If it don’t work, grab your bayonet and call for artillery or a wart hog, not customer service.
What will customer service do during a hostage/barricade incident? If something goes wrong, I have a good idea what the attorneys will try to do to the person who made the decision to save money.
Put it on a hunting rifle, put it on a target rifle, put one on a compound bow.
If you are convinced that it is a great tactical scope ready for this level of application then put it on a sniper rifle.
But don’t put one on a police/military rifle because it has good customer service.
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
You know...I do follow what you are saying and I do agree to a good extent....
but damn dude, is it shit on Vortex week or what?
You know...I do follow what you are saying and I do agree to a good extent....
but damn dude, is it shit on Vortex week or what?
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I think the fact that these questions exist in writing here, the maker of the scope is a member here, yet the questions go unanswered by the maker tells you everything you need to know. </div></div>
When I asked that question IIRC the answer was that they are built in a different factory, more similar to the regular viper line. As far as Lowlight blowing it up he said he's tired of that stuff so either he didn't have confidence in it or just doesn't care to do it anymore.
If it really matters you could PM scott@vortex on here he is not hard to get a hold of.
I like my 1-4 PST but as far as law enforcement use goes I would get something else. EOtechs, Aimpoints and ACOGs are the ones I usually see cops playing with at the range on their rifles. It's not that I think the PST is a POS or doesn't track; it tracks fine and holds zero. I've ridden on a quad with it, dropped it, banged it around and it still works. But like the other guy said if your life is on the line then go with something that has a proven track record.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I think the fact that these questions exist in writing here, the maker of the scope is a member here, yet the questions go unanswered by the maker tells you everything you need to know. </div></div>
When I asked that question IIRC the answer was that they are built in a different factory, more similar to the regular viper line. As far as Lowlight blowing it up he said he's tired of that stuff so either he didn't have confidence in it or just doesn't care to do it anymore.
If it really matters you could PM scott@vortex on here he is not hard to get a hold of.
I like my 1-4 PST but as far as law enforcement use goes I would get something else. EOtechs, Aimpoints and ACOGs are the ones I usually see cops playing with at the range on their rifles. It's not that I think the PST is a POS or doesn't track; it tracks fine and holds zero. I've ridden on a quad with it, dropped it, banged it around and it still works. But like the other guy said if your life is on the line then go with something that has a proven track record.
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
As stated above by Alt6grunt regarding not spending enough on a quality optic leading to civil liability, that's a civil suit for the department if it were an issued piece of equipment, it becomes a moot issue when purchased by the officer as a supplement to issued equipment, if the department has a SOP for standards and training regarding it. It will become a liability if the department doesn't, and that is the main reason why many departments do not authorize the altering of weapons without specific approval.
The consideration that should be brought out of that; does your training and profeciency with said equipment meet departmental standards, and does it meet POST requirements, is there a training program and SOP for there use, then it will most often follow POST verbage. Will you be able to document that in a civil case, will your deaprtmental SOP's back the use of it, or is it a gray area. If your department does not specifically train you for the use of an optic, then there is civil liability there also. Meaning, when you go before the court to protect your house and home from the civil suit because of your decision, will you have supporting documentation for the equipment you are using. Because they will call the firearms instructors and academy staff that trained and qualified you, and then ask if they also trained you in the use of said optic. If they say no, vicarious liability is a bitch.
Remember the old adage about Murphy.
As stated above by Alt6grunt regarding not spending enough on a quality optic leading to civil liability, that's a civil suit for the department if it were an issued piece of equipment, it becomes a moot issue when purchased by the officer as a supplement to issued equipment, if the department has a SOP for standards and training regarding it. It will become a liability if the department doesn't, and that is the main reason why many departments do not authorize the altering of weapons without specific approval.
The consideration that should be brought out of that; does your training and profeciency with said equipment meet departmental standards, and does it meet POST requirements, is there a training program and SOP for there use, then it will most often follow POST verbage. Will you be able to document that in a civil case, will your deaprtmental SOP's back the use of it, or is it a gray area. If your department does not specifically train you for the use of an optic, then there is civil liability there also. Meaning, when you go before the court to protect your house and home from the civil suit because of your decision, will you have supporting documentation for the equipment you are using. Because they will call the firearms instructors and academy staff that trained and qualified you, and then ask if they also trained you in the use of said optic. If they say no, vicarious liability is a bitch.
Remember the old adage about Murphy.
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
I am not trying to shit on Vortex. But some of the comments are too far out there to ignore. I would have jumped on the same boat with any scope MFG being mounted on a sniper rifle, if the reason was good customer service. Maybe I get a little to fired up.
I don't think I have encouraged anyone here to buy a single MFG of any type.
I said, if you are convinced that it is a great tactical scope ready for this level of application then put it on a sniper rifle.
But don’t put one on a police/military rifle because it has good customer service.
I am not trying to shit on Vortex. But some of the comments are too far out there to ignore. I would have jumped on the same boat with any scope MFG being mounted on a sniper rifle, if the reason was good customer service. Maybe I get a little to fired up.
I don't think I have encouraged anyone here to buy a single MFG of any type.
I said, if you are convinced that it is a great tactical scope ready for this level of application then put it on a sniper rifle.
But don’t put one on a police/military rifle because it has good customer service.
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
Don't get me wrong, I agree 100% that these have not earned their place on mil/leo rifles. I really don't disagree with too much you have talked about ....mostly with the exception of a couple of mute points here and there.
We all know Osprey, Baraska, ....blah,blah,blah are crap, but Vortex is a strong up and coming company, attempting to put out a quality product and put forth every effort to do it right.In no way shape or form does Vortex belong in the same group as those others mentioned...
Don't get me wrong, I agree 100% that these have not earned their place on mil/leo rifles. I really don't disagree with too much you have talked about ....mostly with the exception of a couple of mute points here and there.
We all know Osprey, Baraska, ....blah,blah,blah are crap, but Vortex is a strong up and coming company, attempting to put out a quality product and put forth every effort to do it right.In no way shape or form does Vortex belong in the same group as those others mentioned...
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
Sniper Hide: For the serious tactical sniper. (Upper left corner)
The level of knowledge on just about all shooting/gun forums, range from that of a spent cartridge case to the very experienced experts. Most, including me fall somewhere in between.
If you listen to some, just a few post up, you can hear the experience in their words.
I respect the honesty that has been posted here. Both good and bad. Look at the pros and cons on this thread alone. My point is, that some of these issues are based on experience and knowledge while other are no more than deeply embedded opinions.
Maybe I exaggerate my comparisons or illustrations, but customer service just doesn’t sell me this scope for a police/military rifle.
Unfortunately for many companies, only performance and confidence will do that.
When these end-user comments reflect absolute confidence under harsh field conditions, you may start to see them on police and military package deals.
Sniper Hide: For the serious tactical sniper. (Upper left corner)
The level of knowledge on just about all shooting/gun forums, range from that of a spent cartridge case to the very experienced experts. Most, including me fall somewhere in between.
If you listen to some, just a few post up, you can hear the experience in their words.
I respect the honesty that has been posted here. Both good and bad. Look at the pros and cons on this thread alone. My point is, that some of these issues are based on experience and knowledge while other are no more than deeply embedded opinions.
Maybe I exaggerate my comparisons or illustrations, but customer service just doesn’t sell me this scope for a police/military rifle.
Unfortunately for many companies, only performance and confidence will do that.
When these end-user comments reflect absolute confidence under harsh field conditions, you may start to see them on police and military package deals.
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: alt6grunt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My point is, that some of these issues are based on experience and knowledge while other are no more than deeply embedded opinions.</div></div>
Too true and truer words could not be spoken brother!
and I do agree, CS should not be the number one selling point and I do still hear the "most bang for the buck" quote more than I should for these units as I feel they do deserve more credit, but in the end that is just my thoughts. I for one have used, abused, kicked, droped burried and beat the crap out of mine so I feel I can stand by the end product that is in my hands....maybe others are not so lucky with theirs, but I could not be happier. But in the same breath, I will never say it is in any way on par with a Nightforce (I do not own one but I can imagine) or S&B (I do have one and I don't have to imagine) or any of the other really high end optics...
I would probably keep real quite on this issue if these were my only optics or if I had not put one through the wringer, but since I am a multi brand, mid to high end user/owner, I do feel pretty comforable with the product they are putting out and what the end result will be. Granted all of their units do not give me the warm and fuzzies, I picked up a Crossfire to take a look/see and the clerk could not get it back in the case and far far away from me fast enough.
I would say, chances are high we will not see Vortex in the hands of LEO/Mil operators as a dept/branch issue unit, if not for lack of reputation in the operating field, proven quality or not, there are too many other issues in play.....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: alt6grunt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My point is, that some of these issues are based on experience and knowledge while other are no more than deeply embedded opinions.</div></div>
Too true and truer words could not be spoken brother!
and I do agree, CS should not be the number one selling point and I do still hear the "most bang for the buck" quote more than I should for these units as I feel they do deserve more credit, but in the end that is just my thoughts. I for one have used, abused, kicked, droped burried and beat the crap out of mine so I feel I can stand by the end product that is in my hands....maybe others are not so lucky with theirs, but I could not be happier. But in the same breath, I will never say it is in any way on par with a Nightforce (I do not own one but I can imagine) or S&B (I do have one and I don't have to imagine) or any of the other really high end optics...
I would probably keep real quite on this issue if these were my only optics or if I had not put one through the wringer, but since I am a multi brand, mid to high end user/owner, I do feel pretty comforable with the product they are putting out and what the end result will be. Granted all of their units do not give me the warm and fuzzies, I picked up a Crossfire to take a look/see and the clerk could not get it back in the case and far far away from me fast enough.
I would say, chances are high we will not see Vortex in the hands of LEO/Mil operators as a dept/branch issue unit, if not for lack of reputation in the operating field, proven quality or not, there are too many other issues in play.....
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
Another problem many good companies face is that this is a small playing field for both LE and Mil contracts.
Even if an Optic MFG is competitive on all levels, they may never be given a fair shake in this limited market. Right or wrong, that is just the real world that we live in.
There is a lot of loyalty here for Vortex. They have already emerged and separated themselves from entry level.
The time for a police rifle might still be over the horizon, this may be a great time to jump on board and invest in stock. Haven't looked there yet.
Anyway, thanks to all for the ride, it has been interesting.
Another problem many good companies face is that this is a small playing field for both LE and Mil contracts.
Even if an Optic MFG is competitive on all levels, they may never be given a fair shake in this limited market. Right or wrong, that is just the real world that we live in.
There is a lot of loyalty here for Vortex. They have already emerged and separated themselves from entry level.
The time for a police rifle might still be over the horizon, this may be a great time to jump on board and invest in stock. Haven't looked there yet.
Anyway, thanks to all for the ride, it has been interesting.
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
Personal opinion when it comes to patrol carbines, is iron sights are GTG. No batteries to fail, nothing to get bumped out of alignment, just point and shoot (KISS). Let the TAC unit play with the cool toys, since they train with them.
Personal opinion when it comes to patrol carbines, is iron sights are GTG. No batteries to fail, nothing to get bumped out of alignment, just point and shoot (KISS). Let the TAC unit play with the cool toys, since they train with them.
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Witch Doctor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Personal opinion when it comes to patrol carbines, is iron sights are GTG. No batteries to fail, nothing to get bumped out of alignment, just point and shoot (KISS). Let the TAC unit play with the cool toys, since they train with them. </div></div>
or the trijicon rx reflex sights.....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Witch Doctor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Personal opinion when it comes to patrol carbines, is iron sights are GTG. No batteries to fail, nothing to get bumped out of alignment, just point and shoot (KISS). Let the TAC unit play with the cool toys, since they train with them. </div></div>
or the trijicon rx reflex sights.....
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Witch Doctor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Personal opinion when it comes to patrol carbines, is iron sights are GTG. No batteries to fail, nothing to get bumped out of alignment, just point and shoot (KISS). Let the TAC unit play with the cool toys, since they train with them.</div></div>
+1 on this. In fact many departments require co-witness capability if you have an optic in use for tactical ranges at all.
More generally the comments in the thread about good customer service are dead-100%-on about that being absolutely and completely irrelevant.
Its great that Vortex has customer service. Its great that problems get quickly and easily addressed.
But these optics need to prove that they are rock solid and reliable because customer service wont fix the optic in the time in between when it breaks and when an officer potentially has to take a shot that his or someone else's life may depend on.
Period.
Vortex may get there. But today there just isn't enough evidence to have that level of comfort in these offerings. Thats not to say that I wont own one (I bought a PST after all) just that its not ready for certain capacities until it has had more time to prove itself.
On a side note, the training/qualification program, many departments address that issue by simply holding the users of other optics or those with personal equipment to the same qualification standards, et al, that any officer would have to fire with department owned equipment.
Before it deploys, you have to document it, have the department armorer sign off on it as meeting all policy requirements of the applicable platform, and then complete the departmental qualification program for that platform. Pretty easy
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Witch Doctor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Personal opinion when it comes to patrol carbines, is iron sights are GTG. No batteries to fail, nothing to get bumped out of alignment, just point and shoot (KISS). Let the TAC unit play with the cool toys, since they train with them.</div></div>
+1 on this. In fact many departments require co-witness capability if you have an optic in use for tactical ranges at all.
More generally the comments in the thread about good customer service are dead-100%-on about that being absolutely and completely irrelevant.
Its great that Vortex has customer service. Its great that problems get quickly and easily addressed.
But these optics need to prove that they are rock solid and reliable because customer service wont fix the optic in the time in between when it breaks and when an officer potentially has to take a shot that his or someone else's life may depend on.
Period.
Vortex may get there. But today there just isn't enough evidence to have that level of comfort in these offerings. Thats not to say that I wont own one (I bought a PST after all) just that its not ready for certain capacities until it has had more time to prove itself.
On a side note, the training/qualification program, many departments address that issue by simply holding the users of other optics or those with personal equipment to the same qualification standards, et al, that any officer would have to fire with department owned equipment.
Before it deploys, you have to document it, have the department armorer sign off on it as meeting all policy requirements of the applicable platform, and then complete the departmental qualification program for that platform. Pretty easy
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
“not spending enough on a quality optic leading to civil liability,”
I don’t know that actual money spent has any thing to do with it. If there is a failure due to equipment, civil action will likely follow regardless of the price tag, name or life span of mfg. Other contributing factors may affect the strength of the case or who writes the check.
My response regarding liability was more about the comments of “why” a product was chosen, or why it should be purchased.
A company that produces a product intended for the very purpose in which it is being used needs to be prepared to defend it’s product. TASER for example.
I think you go out on a limb if you decide to push the envelope, especially if you do it for the wrong reason, you will be on your own.
Am I wrong about this?
“not spending enough on a quality optic leading to civil liability,”
I don’t know that actual money spent has any thing to do with it. If there is a failure due to equipment, civil action will likely follow regardless of the price tag, name or life span of mfg. Other contributing factors may affect the strength of the case or who writes the check.
My response regarding liability was more about the comments of “why” a product was chosen, or why it should be purchased.
A company that produces a product intended for the very purpose in which it is being used needs to be prepared to defend it’s product. TASER for example.
I think you go out on a limb if you decide to push the envelope, especially if you do it for the wrong reason, you will be on your own.
Am I wrong about this?
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
Sorry battery was dying, had to recharge the lap top. I hit the submit button so I wouldn’t lose it.
I wanted to ask if I am wrong about posting this here. Is there another thread that may be more appropriate for liability comments. Maybe someone could re-direct me if there is.
Sorry battery was dying, had to recharge the lap top. I hit the submit button so I wouldn’t lose it.
I wanted to ask if I am wrong about posting this here. Is there another thread that may be more appropriate for liability comments. Maybe someone could re-direct me if there is.
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
Anything made by man can fail. Heck, even the M700's that those super scopes are bolted to have been known to just go off on their own and kill like possessed creatures. I keed, I keed.
The issues are does the glass meet the same standards, e.g. does it track, hold zero, image quality, light transfer etc as other quality glass? A subset of this is does it have the feature set required to accomplish the mission.
Also, is it rugged enough to not fail under normal or likely deployment conditions? If the Nightforce is bounced off the concrete because you left it on the top of the squad and drove away, the expectation is that it won't survive. If it does, that is what legends are made of. If the Vortex doesn't survive, based on their customer service, you get another...
As has been said, these have not yet been proven. They may indeed be sufficient to get the job done. We are often issued equipment that is not necessarily the best quality, but sufficient.
The equipment liability issue would not likely be raised if you intentionally shoot someone (then its all on your decision making - not equipment since it worked). It would only be raised if you shot the wrong person, or if you missed and the target proceeded to kill others. In these cases, equipment may or may not be the cause, but plaintiff's attorneys in the civil suit will bring up anything and everything to muddy the waters.
Anything made by man can fail. Heck, even the M700's that those super scopes are bolted to have been known to just go off on their own and kill like possessed creatures. I keed, I keed.
The issues are does the glass meet the same standards, e.g. does it track, hold zero, image quality, light transfer etc as other quality glass? A subset of this is does it have the feature set required to accomplish the mission.
Also, is it rugged enough to not fail under normal or likely deployment conditions? If the Nightforce is bounced off the concrete because you left it on the top of the squad and drove away, the expectation is that it won't survive. If it does, that is what legends are made of. If the Vortex doesn't survive, based on their customer service, you get another...
As has been said, these have not yet been proven. They may indeed be sufficient to get the job done. We are often issued equipment that is not necessarily the best quality, but sufficient.
The equipment liability issue would not likely be raised if you intentionally shoot someone (then its all on your decision making - not equipment since it worked). It would only be raised if you shot the wrong person, or if you missed and the target proceeded to kill others. In these cases, equipment may or may not be the cause, but plaintiff's attorneys in the civil suit will bring up anything and everything to muddy the waters.
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
I wish you would listen to what I am saying. My post are not about you being a happy customer, or camper. It is about the comments that are being used to justify the purchase of a brand (any brand) for deployment on a LE/Mil rifle.
You are never going to sell me a LE/Mil sniper rifle or a scope for a sniper rifle because I will get another one if it fails.
You want to sell me one. Tell me that the scope was built and developed for that purpose. Tell me that it is ready for the abuse of field operations. Tell me I can count on it in the heat of a fire fight or in a hostage situation.
When it comes down to it, at that second, if it don’t work, replacement or how much I saved is way the hell down my list of concerns.
I wish you would listen to what I am saying. My post are not about you being a happy customer, or camper. It is about the comments that are being used to justify the purchase of a brand (any brand) for deployment on a LE/Mil rifle.
You are never going to sell me a LE/Mil sniper rifle or a scope for a sniper rifle because I will get another one if it fails.
You want to sell me one. Tell me that the scope was built and developed for that purpose. Tell me that it is ready for the abuse of field operations. Tell me I can count on it in the heat of a fire fight or in a hostage situation.
When it comes down to it, at that second, if it don’t work, replacement or how much I saved is way the hell down my list of concerns.
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
I understand that there is some hesitation in using a PST for LE use. My question is what do you guys think about the Weaver FFP scopes that are now on the market. Weaver has been around for many years and I have had good luck with there sporting scopes. I was looking at a PST for LE use but now am second guessing that decision. As with everyone I have a tight budget and need the most bang for my buck.
I understand that there is some hesitation in using a PST for LE use. My question is what do you guys think about the Weaver FFP scopes that are now on the market. Weaver has been around for many years and I have had good luck with there sporting scopes. I was looking at a PST for LE use but now am second guessing that decision. As with everyone I have a tight budget and need the most bang for my buck.
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TCB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I understand that there is some hesitation in using a PST for LE use. My question is what do you guys think about the Weaver FFP scopes that are now on the market. Weaver has been around for many years and I have had good luck with there sporting scopes. I was looking at a PST for LE use but now am second guessing that decision. As with everyone I have a tight budget and need the most bang for my buck. </div></div>
Waiting to receive the new weaver FFP (should be here monday) so can't make a comment yet on anything concrete. That being said the weaver is $100 cheaper, more elevation, has the same features minus the zero stop shim, if anything like the past tacticals quite tough, and has better glass per members PM's here that have directly compared them.
Flyingbullseye
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TCB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I understand that there is some hesitation in using a PST for LE use. My question is what do you guys think about the Weaver FFP scopes that are now on the market. Weaver has been around for many years and I have had good luck with there sporting scopes. I was looking at a PST for LE use but now am second guessing that decision. As with everyone I have a tight budget and need the most bang for my buck. </div></div>
Waiting to receive the new weaver FFP (should be here monday) so can't make a comment yet on anything concrete. That being said the weaver is $100 cheaper, more elevation, has the same features minus the zero stop shim, if anything like the past tacticals quite tough, and has better glass per members PM's here that have directly compared them.
Flyingbullseye
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
It would be like using a new mag for your AR. Test, test, and test it again till you grow confident of it and it proves to be reliable, then implement it into the duty mags. Even the best can toss a turd or two so just because it says XX brand here doesn't mean it will work 100%. Run it through the paces of real life for some time and if it works 100% great if not, try something else.
I think the biggest thing about the PST is, it's too new to establish how reliable out of the box they are. Where as you pull out a NF, the likelihood of the NF going down is much, much lower than a Barska, or BSA going down when you are doing your T&E work.
It would be like using a new mag for your AR. Test, test, and test it again till you grow confident of it and it proves to be reliable, then implement it into the duty mags. Even the best can toss a turd or two so just because it says XX brand here doesn't mean it will work 100%. Run it through the paces of real life for some time and if it works 100% great if not, try something else.
I think the biggest thing about the PST is, it's too new to establish how reliable out of the box they are. Where as you pull out a NF, the likelihood of the NF going down is much, much lower than a Barska, or BSA going down when you are doing your T&E work.
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
I, a defense lawyer ask:
Officer you selected a scope for use on a police rifle. Can you explain the importance of a police rifle to the jury?
You respond:
This rifle is only used in the most dangerous and critical situations confronting police.
Then I ask, why YOU chose this scope.
You respond:
The reason I chose to go with this scope is:
1. “The Weaver is $100 cheaper”
2. “Weaver has been around for many years”
3. “I have had good luck with there sporting scopes”
Are these good reasons? What picture did you just paint?
Based on the life and purpose of a scope.
You saved a couple dollars a year on an antique that is worked well for deer hunting.
I, a defense lawyer ask:
Officer you selected a scope for use on a police rifle. Can you explain the importance of a police rifle to the jury?
You respond:
This rifle is only used in the most dangerous and critical situations confronting police.
Then I ask, why YOU chose this scope.
You respond:
The reason I chose to go with this scope is:
1. “The Weaver is $100 cheaper”
2. “Weaver has been around for many years”
3. “I have had good luck with there sporting scopes”
Are these good reasons? What picture did you just paint?
Based on the life and purpose of a scope.
You saved a couple dollars a year on an antique that is worked well for deer hunting.
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: drb5r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CBR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A video like Lowlight did on that Bushnell 4200 3-12 would be nice, wouldn't it? </div></div>Hate to say it but i dont believe thats gonna happen. Makes you wonder. </div></div>
Lowlight did a great video review of the HD. I've seen the PST and they are very nice. The Vortex tech support states the line is tested on a 50 cal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pc-aov6G7g
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: drb5r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CBR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A video like Lowlight did on that Bushnell 4200 3-12 would be nice, wouldn't it? </div></div>Hate to say it but i dont believe thats gonna happen. Makes you wonder. </div></div>
Lowlight did a great video review of the HD. I've seen the PST and they are very nice. The Vortex tech support states the line is tested on a 50 cal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pc-aov6G7g
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
CS Tactical did a review.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbV0aFYIWLs&feature=relmfu
CS Tactical did a review.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbV0aFYIWLs&feature=relmfu
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
If I was LEO and looking for potential equipment for a working rifle, I'd ask the manufacturer for recommendations. Intended use will be a factor if the issue goes to trial.
Ask Vortex if the PST was designed for LEO/military use. The answer is going to be no, so be prepared to buy a Razor which is the tool intended for the job.
John
If I was LEO and looking for potential equipment for a working rifle, I'd ask the manufacturer for recommendations. Intended use will be a factor if the issue goes to trial.
Ask Vortex if the PST was designed for LEO/military use. The answer is going to be no, so be prepared to buy a Razor which is the tool intended for the job.
John
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
Let me start out with, I have *NOT* shot a rifle equipped with a Vortex. I am NOT on a special ops team. So if my words don't mean anything to you based on that, skip my post now.
I have been riding motorbikes for 20+ years and have taught the classes for 10 years. I've raced and traveled much of our country on two wheels. I get asked by people which helmet to buy. Of course the Shoei and Arai are great helmets, and they cost a fair amount too. They're comfy, nice features and top racers use them. Shoei/Arai = S&B / NF scopes.
Other helmets out there that are very good but not as well known are Shark/Scorpion/Suomy/Schuberth. ALL excellent and pass strict standards. I think these less-known brands likely equal Vortex, especially their PST line.
All will protect your head. All scopes will put you on paper. A helmet will protect you up-to-a-point. A scope will take abuse up-to-a-point. I know those points can and will vary. BUT . . . I bet if the lesser-known helmets/scopes cost a few dollars more, the "placebo" of cost would have people think more highly of the equipment.
But, opinions are like. . . and everyone has one. Myself included!
Think I'll poor another drink now.
-G45
Let me start out with, I have *NOT* shot a rifle equipped with a Vortex. I am NOT on a special ops team. So if my words don't mean anything to you based on that, skip my post now.
I have been riding motorbikes for 20+ years and have taught the classes for 10 years. I've raced and traveled much of our country on two wheels. I get asked by people which helmet to buy. Of course the Shoei and Arai are great helmets, and they cost a fair amount too. They're comfy, nice features and top racers use them. Shoei/Arai = S&B / NF scopes.
Other helmets out there that are very good but not as well known are Shark/Scorpion/Suomy/Schuberth. ALL excellent and pass strict standards. I think these less-known brands likely equal Vortex, especially their PST line.
All will protect your head. All scopes will put you on paper. A helmet will protect you up-to-a-point. A scope will take abuse up-to-a-point. I know those points can and will vary. BUT . . . I bet if the lesser-known helmets/scopes cost a few dollars more, the "placebo" of cost would have people think more highly of the equipment.
But, opinions are like. . . and everyone has one. Myself included!
Think I'll poor another drink now.
-G45
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RODENT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">CS Tactical did a review.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbV0aFYIWLs&feature=relmfu
</div></div>
That was a rough review to listen to.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RODENT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">CS Tactical did a review.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbV0aFYIWLs&feature=relmfu
</div></div>
That was a rough review to listen to.
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
Am I the only one not buying this fantasy court case BS with all the Leupolds on police rifles out there?
Am I the only one not buying this fantasy court case BS with all the Leupolds on police rifles out there?
Re: Viper PST law enforcement/military use
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeffersonv</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Am I the only one not buying this fantasy court case BS with all the Leupolds on police rifles out there? </div></div>
LOL...no
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeffersonv</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Am I the only one not buying this fantasy court case BS with all the Leupolds on police rifles out there? </div></div>
LOL...no
