Rifle Scopes Vortex Viper PST update! (12-21-10)

#202
Re: Now accepting back orders on the Vortex Viper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JelloStorm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe Sam can post a few pictures of the reticles on lowest and highester power....

hint hint!

</div></div>

plus 1. id like to see as well
 
#203
Re: Now accepting back orders on the Vortex Viper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sam@Vortex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...
That being said, we are using a unique feature on the SFP scopes. The mag ring has click stops at magnification multiples, so it is easy to dial down the mag to the first stop and then all of the subtensions in the reticle can be multiplied by 2.

For example, dial from 24x down to the first click stop at 12x and now you have 20MOA of hold over on the SFP reticle.
...
-Sam </div></div>

This is way cool IMO. I'm eyeballing the 6-24 PST for my 338 Edge build. For its purposes (LR target / hunting) I really think Id rather have the SFP for the sake of obscuring less of the target. The above mentioned feature makes not having FFP sting a little less for those rare times when I might want it. This, to me, should really be one of those "why didn't I think of that" features, especially to Nightforce. Kudos to Vortex for not only listening to customers, but innovating at the same time.

As long as the glass is in the same league as Mk4 / NXS / Sightron / etc., adjustments are accurate and repeatable, and initial releases don't start going down, I'm definitely in. I really hope that's the case, 'cause if not it's going to be a 5.5-22 NXS, and I'd really love to save $1000!
grin.gif


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sam@Vortex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...
Basically, we are using some custom made brass shims that stack up under the the inner turret post to prevent downward movement, once you set your zero. The shims are 0.2mm thick and the scope comes with 20.
...
-Sam </div></div>

Sam - Question on this one. I recall when someone on here was making and selling shims to fit under a non-zero-stop NXS turret as a cheap zero stop of sorts. The PST zero stop appears to be essentially the same thing.

Nightforce then came out and said that any scope with the shims installed would have their warranties voided. IIRC, the justification was that the elevation turret wasn't designed for that sort of force against the shim, something about the finely threaded post or what not. I think they even had some issues with some scopes due to the matter.

Can you weigh in on that at all? To your knowledge is there a different design in the PST turret that accounts for this? Or was NF just full of it and trying to sell their own ZS? Any info is appreciated.
 
#204
Re: Now accepting back orders on the Vortex Viper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AJBello</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As long as the glass is in the same league as Mk4 / NXS / Sightron / etc., adjustments are accurate and repeatable, and initial releases don't start going down, I'm definitely in. I really hope that's the case, 'cause if not it's going to be a 5.5-22 NXS, and I'd really love to save $1000!
grin.gif
</div></div>

This is exactly my dilemma as I need an optic with good enough glass to reach out on a .338 Lapua rifle and don't want to spend more than I have to. At this point I'm leaning towards a NF 5.5-22 same as you buy this one is awfully tempting. Just wish I had a definitive answer about the glass when comparing the two. I would hate to wait for the PST only to find out it won't work then have to wait all over again for a NF.

I think I'm going to pre-order a PST but the next question is if I will be waiting forever for production to catch up or if I will still be on the first wave when they ship.
 
#205
Re: Now accepting back orders on the Vortex Viper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AJBello</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sam@Vortex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...


Sam@Vortex said:
...
Basically, we are using some custom made brass shims that stack up under the the inner turret post to prevent downward movement, once you set your zero. The shims are 0.2mm thick and the scope comes with 20.
...
-Sam </div></div>

Sam - Question on this one. I recall when someone on here was making and selling shims to fit under a non-zero-stop NXS turret as a cheap zero stop of sorts. The PST zero stop appears to be essentially the same thing.

Nightforce then came out and said that any scope with the shims installed would have their warranties voided. IIRC, the justification was that the elevation turret wasn't designed for that sort of force against the shim, something about the finely threaded post or what not. I think they even had some issues with some scopes due to the matter.

Can you weigh in on that at all? To your knowledge is there a different design in the PST turret that accounts for this? Or was NF just full of it and trying to sell their own ZS? Any info is appreciated. </div></div>



Good question AJBello ! I recall the issues with the shim style zero stops and voiding warranties. I'm interested in the answer as well .
Click to expand...
 
#206
Re: Now accepting back orders on the Vortex Viper

NF was claiming that the precision and "fine-ness" of their threads would be messed up by using a shim-type stop.

Think about it folks, a turret is like a puller, and if you crank a turret of most any design against its stop (be it the original design, or an added travel-limiting device) like a brainless primate you will dmage the scope's internals.

If you take a NXS that is not equipped with a NF zerostop and turn it until it stops and continue to turn, even though you felt resistance, do you think it will be good for the scope??

Unfortunately people must not have any common sense. I for one make and use my own shim type zero stops on my scopes. They are a guide, and I don't keep cranking when I come to a stop.

This kind of design will be fine ad long as the end user knows that once resistance is felt-stop turning!!!
 
#208
Re: Now accepting back orders on the Vortex Viper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">NF was claiming that the precision and "fine-ness" of their threads would be messed up by using a shim-type stop.

Think about it folks, a turret is like a puller, and if you crank a turret of most any design against its stop (be it the original design, or an added travel-limiting device) like a brainless primate you will dmage the scope's internals.

If you take a NXS that is not equipped with a NF zerostop and turn it until it stops and continue to turn, even though you felt resistance, do you think it will be good for the scope??

I agree totally with what you are saying but you would think this would be a no brainer!!

Unfortunately people must not have any common sense. I for one make and use my own shim type zero stops on my scopes. They are a guide, and I don't keep cranking when I come to a stop.

This kind of design will be fine ad long as the end user knows that once resistance is felt-stop turning!!! </div></div>

I totally agree with what you are saying but one would think this would be a no brainer!!
 
#209
Re: Now accepting back orders on the Vortex Viper

Hi guys. Sorry for not getting back to your questions right away. Scott and I were in meetings the entire day today. One of us should be able to go through the questions and respond tomorrow. Thanks for your patience!

-Sam
 
#210
Re: Now accepting back orders on the Vortex Viper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">NF was claiming that the precision and "fine-ness" of their threads would be messed up by using a shim-type stop.

Think about it folks, a turret is like a puller, and if you crank a turret of most any design against its stop (be it the original design, or an added travel-limiting device) like a brainless primate you will dmage the scope's internals.

If you take a NXS that is not equipped with a NF zerostop and turn it until it stops and continue to turn, even though you felt resistance, do you think it will be good for the scope??

Unfortunately people must not have any common sense. I for one make and use my own shim type zero stops on my scopes. They are a guide, and I don't keep cranking when I come to a stop.

This kind of design will be fine ad long as the end user knows that once resistance is felt-stop turning!!! </div></div>

I'm tracking with ya on that. My wonder is how much force does it take to cause an issue? Obviously once I'm at, and feel, my ZS I'm going to stop turning. Say though, for example, I've got gobs of elevation dialed in for a long shot. Then for whatever reason I quickly need to get back to my zero. Is "normal" fast cranking back to zero until you hit the stop going to be an issue? Or would it take a large amount of force after the zero is met to create a problem? That would be my assumption, but the impression I was left with after the NF thing left me wondering.

Surely it wouldn't be ideal to have to pussyfoot back to your zero stop for fear of damaging the internals.
 
#211
Re: Now accepting back orders on the Vortex Viper

While I'm sure most of us know how to treat a scope, I'm sure there's your Tacti-cool kids who've played 1 too many games of Rainbow Six Vegas or Call of Duty who will just crank away on the scope... I'm eager to hear how much abuse these can withstand once Sam has time to respond to us.

I just wish the 4-16 SFP had the .2mil hashmarks... Damn do I wish they had them, I would've pulled the trigger on one already.
frown.gif
 
#213
Re: Now accepting back orders on the Vortex Viper

Actually I was just perusing the Vortex site and for the first time noticed that the reticle that they are showing for the FFP PST's only has 3 mils above and below the crosshair.
Am I seeing thing or WTF is up with that?

sub_viper-pst_624s1-mrad_details.jpg
 
#215
Re: Now accepting back orders on the Vortex Viper

Whew, that looks better.
The one I linked was what came up on their site for me. If we get a confirmation from Sam on which is on the 6-24FFP I may be putting a scope up for sale.......
 
#217
Re: Now accepting back orders on the Vortex Viper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Whew, that looks better.
The one I linked was what came up on their site for me. If we get a confirmation from Sam on which is on the 6-24FFP I may be putting a scope up for sale....... </div></div>

The whole "forest for the trees" kinda thing......????
laugh.gif
 
#218
Re: Now accepting back orders on the Vortex Viper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FFP PST's only has 3 mils above and below the crosshair. Am I seeing thing or WTF is up with that?</div></div>
Yeah, that's the SFP.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JelloStorm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What I dont get is why the SFP 4-16x50 only has 4.5 mills when the FFP has 8. I don't need a FFP but I'd like to have 8 mills for holdover. </div></div>
Being calibrated for max power, it can't have as much as the FFP scopes because the FOV isn't big enough. If you want heavy posts at all to make the reticle easier/faster at close range/lower powers, etc, you need less open space at the center.

With the FFP, the heavy posts will disappear when cranked to max power (completely for the 6-24, mostly for the 4-16)--which is OK because when at max power you aren't doing any fast/close shooting. When you crank the power down, the posts appear and grow toward the center making the reticle easier/faster to aim with in such situations.
 
#219
Re: Now accepting back orders on the Vortex Viper

^^
That's why lots of SFP scopes that have modified mildots make the subtensions to range at 18X or 20X tops......




<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The whole "forest for the trees" kinda thing......????
laugh.gif
</div></div>
Just thinking the 6-24 would be a better scope on my 7-08 than my MK4 since 2/3 are mow mil/mil and I can't afford a 3rd USO
laugh.gif
 
#220
Re: Now accepting back orders on the Vortex Viper

Jon A,

Not sure I follow your explanation to my post. I was wondering why on both 4-16x50 models, the SFP has 4.5mils and the FFP one has 8.

So, if both are set on max power, shouldn't the reticles look the same? So the mil reticle will be almost half as big when looking through the scope on the SFP and will be bigger on the FFP, tho both scopes are set to 16x.

Both list the same FOV @ 100yds on the website too...

Am I fucking something up here and totally missing something??
 
#221
Re: Now accepting back orders on the Vortex Viper

Jellostorm,

Since nobody outside of Vortex (except maybe some testers) has a new FFP PST, perhaps I can use an illustration of the FFP effect.

My 3-18x42mm FFP MIL/MIL IOR's reticle looks like this:

MP-8DotModFFP-1.jpg



A full 15 MILs under center. However, that is true only @ 14x or below. By the time the scope is on 18x I have only 10.5 MILS below center. The reticle has gotten larger, and in doing so has cut off the bottom post, and 4.5 Mils of the lower cross hair. On the top and side of the reticle, I still have full use of all the MIL hashes, but I have lost some of the post length.

On other FFP scopes with less hashes or dots under the center it is not so obvious, however, with the IOR having 15 MILS, you do lose some of that on your highest power.

Bob
 
#222
Re: Now accepting back orders on the Vortex Viper

what he ^ said..I will add that the FFP and SFP reticle will basically look the same at max power but the FFP gains an advantage of reticle size as power decreases allowing for more mils in the sight picture. Since the SFP reticle is fixed regardless of magnification you are limited. The low magnification FFP reticle picture would not be usable in a SFP scope....all your ranging would have to be done at the lowest power setting making it almost impossible to get an accurate reading due to a combination of small reticle size and small (low magnification)target.
 
#223
Re: Now accepting back orders on the Vortex Viper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JelloStorm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jon A,

Not sure I follow your explanation to my post. I was wondering why on both 4-16x50 models, the SFP has 4.5mils and the FFP one has 8.

So, if both are set on max power, shouldn't the reticles look the same? </div></div>
Sorry, I was sort of answering for both the 6-24 and the 4-16. Yes, at max power the reticles will look the same. The difference is with the SFP you're stuck with that for all powers and uses. They try and make the best compromise that will keep the most people happy for the most uses.

Since we don't have any pics of these scopes, let's use the Razor as an example. The effect for the 6-24 will be even more exaggerated (and it's reticle is even thinner), the 4-16 a bit less. At 20X:

20xvortex.jpg


You can see the heavy posts are gone. No big deal for a long range shot (when you'd have the power cranked up), but it might not be the fastest reticle to pick up at close range and low power--especially since the lines on the SFP are much, much thinner. But with FFP at low power:

5x.jpg


You have those heavy posts to help you pick up the reticle quickly for the types of use for which you'd have the scope set on low power.
 
#225
Re: Now accepting back orders on the Vortex Viper

Jon A,

Based on what you guys are saying is, that nice Viper 4-16 FFP reticle with the .2mil hashmarks may look the exact same with 4.5mils when cranked at full power...

That doesn't make sense to cut off so much of your reticle at higher powers... posts I can see but half of the mils on the reticle??

I'm going to wait for Sam's word on this since he's the only one who can answer it.
 
#226
Re: Now accepting back orders on the Vortex Viper

Jellostorm...If you have the opportunity to compare a FFP and SFP side by side you would easily understand what we are saying. There is NO way for a SFP scope to have the same reticle as a FFP on low power
 
#228
Re: Now accepting back orders on the Vortex Viper

Ok guys, I hope this helps everyone understand the method to my madness. Below is the 4-16x50 FFP mil reticle off Vortex's site. You can see it has 8mil up, down, left and right.

Inside of the reticle, I created a blue circle. This blue circle shows the reticle as is shown for the 4-16x50 SFP. So, when at full 16x, will both FFP and SFP scopes show only 4.5mil?

If the picture does not show, here's the link to the one I created:

http://www.ar15-m4.com/reticle.jpg

reticle.jpg
 
#229
Re: Now accepting back orders on the Vortex Viper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JelloStorm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Based on what you guys are saying is, that nice Viper 4-16 FFP reticle with the .2mil hashmarks may look the exact same with 4.5mils when cranked at full power...</div></div>
No, that's not what I meant. The reticles will look as the drawings show, they will be different. I was simply trying to explain <span style="font-style: italic">why</span> they made them different. They made the opening in the center smaller so they could have the thick posts extend closer to the center to make the reticle faster to pick up in some situations. Since with SFP you're stuck with one "visual look" at all power ranges, you have to compromise.
 
#230
Re: Now accepting back orders on the Vortex Viper

How can you have only 4.5mil when at 16x on a SFP but have 8mil on FFP?

That would mean the crosshairs on the SFP will be rather small and contain longer black bars vs the FFP which the bars will almost disappear. So for any hopes of long range shooting without dialing the shit out of your elevation, FFP is the way to go?

Now am I understanding it? I just assumed the pictures displayed on Vortex's site were EXACTLY as you would see them when looking through the scope.
 
#231
Re: Now accepting back orders on the Vortex Viper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LS6TT</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JelloStorm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe Sam can post a few pictures of the reticles on lowest and highester power....

hint hint!

</div></div>

plus 1. id like to see as well </div></div>

4-16x50EBR-1_MRAD_16x.jpg

This is the 4-16 SFP.


4-16x50EBR-1_MRAD_FFP16x.jpg

This the 4-16 FFP at 16x
4-16x50EBR-1_MRAD_FFP4x.jpg

Here is the 4-16 FFP at 4x
6-24x50EBR-1_MRAD_FFP24x.jpg

6-24 FFP at 24x
6-24x50EBR-1_MRAD_FFP6x.jpg

6-24 FFP at 6x
6-24x50EBR-1_MRAD_24x_Subtensions.jpg

6-24x SFP

All of these are mil reticles.

I hope this helps out with some of the questions.


I will do my best to get through most of the questions today. We have been really busy, but Sam or I will get to all of them at some point, we promise.

Thanks for your patience,
Scott
 
#234
Re: Now accepting back orders on the Vortex Viper

Oh hell, now I get it! I thought the reticles on the website were through-the-scope representations on their max powers.

As far as ETA: CStactical has May listed on their site.

Now I gotta work some OT for a 4-16 FFP
 
#235
Re: Now accepting back orders on the Vortex Viper

Frank and Jacob (Sir and Sir) tested a Vortex Razor HD pretty well during a YouTube clip and ended up recommending it; I can't afford that one, so here's hoping the Viper PST is just as tough and nearly as clear.

Here's the YouTube clip; their banter at the end of the video made me laugh my ass off...I have to get down there to train!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pc-aov6G7g (Vortex Razor HD Part 1)
 
#239
Re: Now accepting back orders on the Vortex Viper

I am working on this. Hope to have something for you guys within a week or so. I am planning on doing the 4-16 FFP and 6-24 FFP on min and max power. Will this suffice?<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JelloStorm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Scott,

Any idea of when we can get some through the scope pictures?</div></div>
 
#243
Re: Now accepting back orders on the Vortex Viper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scott_at_Vortex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am working on this. Hope to have something for you guys within a week or so. I am planning on doing the 4-16 FFP and 6-24 FFP on min and max power. Will this suffice?<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JelloStorm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Scott,

Any idea of when we can get some through the scope pictures?</div></div> </div></div>

Scott,

Did you ever get those images?
 
#246
#249
Re: Now accepting back orders on the Vortex Viper

If you go the the very first page first post he has all the info posted if you have any more questions.

The 4-16 models have 75moa/21mrads of internal travel. The 6-24 models have 65moa/19mrads of internal travel.

This is an estimate.
 
#250
Re: Now accepting back orders on the Vortex Viper

You got it backwards on the MOA:

<span style="color: #FF0000">Total elevation travel is just an estimate at this point, but they will be around 65MOA for the 6-24x50 and 75MOA for the 4-16x50.

-Sam</span>


Mike
 
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