Vudoo with CCI SV ??

[Gleedus]

@grauhanen thanks for the info I've never heard of the book.
My CCI sv all is 0.224 the I have SK from 0.2225- 0.224 I have not noticed a correlation between diameter and anything.

I dont think that sorting length helps either.

What I am wondering is does rifle A like ammo 0.760- 0.765 and another like ammo 0.770 or maybe 0.775. The best ammo in this rifle at 200 yds actually has the biggest variation in length and weight even velocity spread isnt the common denominator.

I notice no difference running CCI sv for feeding etc. But I have never measured CCI before I normally just leave that to good stuff. Maybe other lot#s are longer/fatter etc. Etc.

 

[justin amateur]

At extended distances, cartridge uniformity is what looks to be critical.
I've spent a couple years now, inspecting rimfire cartridges, before chambering.
Then correlating mv spread and visible defects to trajectory spread.
When you can tell the bullets are of different shapes, you can expect varying trajectories.
The worst strays are caused by uneven skirts or damage to the drive bands,
at the crimp line/case mouth. Any visible differences at that location
causes major spread compared to minor dents and dings to the nose.

Damage testing at 200 yards

50 at 200

Thanks you, jaia. This thread is not a thread, is an ammo encyclopedia. You do an amazing job for all of us. The first thing I do before choosing an ammo to try, is read your posts. :bthumb::bthumb: +1 Thanks for documenting your efforts for us.

www.rimfirecentral.com

Easy to duplicate this test.
Cartridges, knife or file to remove bullet material on the nose,
and at the crimp, then shoot at 50 yards and compare to as shipped cartridges.
15 shot groups are all that's needed.

 

[Gleedus]

I agree 100% bullet "damage" is a big factor as well. Its not the complete story either. I can sort the bad and crooked stuff out then whats next best at 200?

Velocity? But my impact are not correlating with velocity either. My lowest are sometimes the faster ones.
I find your obsession with the whole box not just a few up my line of thinking.

I have never tried a tuner... now thats getting off topic lol.

I have some very nice Eley Tenex here. Cute (for me) 50 yard groups but at 200... CCI sv is right there. Possibly with some more strays? Group SD is simular. Everything about the Eley measures and looks consistent but no.

 

[justin amateur]

Velocity caused spread is predictable.
Time of flight and gravity means it can be calculated accurately.
Irregularities with the bullets and how the bullets are oriented in the chamber
explains those other outliers. If you have uniformly damaged bullets,
and the bullets are chambered with the damage in the same position each time,
the trajectories will be very similar. It's when the cartridges are chambered
with the damage in random locations, then the results get worse.

Yes, I tried that too...

50 at 200

I hear ya' W8. I'm thinking that an asymmetric bullet will have to wobble. Just like an out of balance tire will, when it's rotating down the road. Combine rotation with an off line center of gravity and it's to be expected. But given a group of projectiles, all having that same rate of...

www.rimfirecentral.com

 

[Snuby642]

Ya guess I should have said chamber types and even that is a generalization.

The cci shoots a nice little 4 shot group if you cover the inevitable 1 flyer out of five.

I was finding them for a nickle a round pe-horseshit so I figure a decent compromise for a 10/22.
Green tag had less fliers but not really tighter groups. Some wolf match was nice but could load 223 rounds for the price I found it.

I'm old, eyes not as good anymore ect so when I get moa ish I'm gtg.

My grandchildren will get a quality bolt 22lr (voodoo) class and ammo as soon as they demonstrate desire to group instead of plink.

Got to figure out left or right hand guns, grandma shoots ambidextrous in rifle, pistol shotgun and bows.
Damndest thing you ever saw.

 

[Big Bo]

I did. I love the HMR Stock. I just had it cerakoted. View attachment 7551273

What cheek piece is that on your B14R?

 

[Defender32]

What cheek piece is that on your B14R?

Mini Stock Pad | WieBad Gear

wiebad.com

 

[BigJimFish]

CRPS Shooter, I have also tried sorting by base-to-ogive measurement. I wasn't convinced that it was particularly fruitful in terms of results. Generally speaking, the less expensive the ammo, the greater the variety of sizes within a box. In better quality ammo, the majority of individual rounds fell into a few close lengths.

Perhaps one of the peculiarities of CCI SV ammo is the average bullet diameter. About 15 years ago, Steve Boelter published The Rifleman's Guide to Rimfire Ammunition. Although it is now outdated in many respects, including the discontinuation of many of the ammos he compared, his data included bullet diameter measurements. While his methodolgy may not have been the most rigorous (Boelter selected ten random rounds from two boxes of each type of ammo compared and measured various aspects of the ammo), his data indicate that CCI SV bullet diameter is on average greater than most other ammos, even the no-longer-available Lapua Midas L and Master L ammos which were made to a larger diameter than Lapua Midas M and Master M varieties.

I haven't measured any CCI SV ammo as I don't use it very often. Below is the measurement data for CCI SV from page 72 of Boelter's book. A wider than average bullet would add to chambering difficulty.

A few years ago, I have a .22lr chambered semi-auto that would not shoot with most ammo. When I say wouldn't shoot, I mean 6 inch groups at 25ft. Oddly, it would shoot with CCI std .5"@ 25ft. Thinking that perhaps the maker had used a centerfire blank (typically a tiny tiny bit larger in diameter) I measured bullets from different ammunition I had tried. The CCI std was the largest. I recall the smallest was fed 711b. Given how differently those different ammunitions performed in other .22lr's I had, I suspect that it was simply a case of the CCI being slightly wider and not bouncing around going down the barrel like the others did.

 

[IdealJoe]

I agree 100% bullet "damage" is a big factor as well. Its not the complete story either. I can sort the bad and crooked stuff out then whats next best at 200?

Velocity? But my impact are not correlating with velocity either. My lowest are sometimes the faster ones.
I find your obsession with the whole box not just a few up my line of thinking.

I have never tried a tuner... now thats getting off topic lol.

I have some very nice Eley Tenex here. Cute (for me) 50 yard groups but at 200... CCI sv is right there. Possibly with some more strays? Group SD is simular. Everything about the Eley measures and looks consistent but no.

From centerfire benchrest testing, it is pretty well accepted that your barrel muzzle is vibrating mainly in the vertical direction and your load and atmospheric conditions determine the timing of bullet exit. If your muzzle is moving upward, the faster bullet will print lower on the target. Your results make perfect sense to me. We are looking for nice round groups with our tuning. This is when the barrel slows and reverses direction at the top or bottom of the muzzle travel. Your CCI lot is probably better timed for you then your higher quality ammo.

An interesting theory is having the ammo matched with the barrel movement on the upward cycle in such a way that the faster bullets go into the same hole as the slower bullets, seemingly, defying gravity.

 

[Snuby642]

A few years ago, I have a .22lr chambered semi-auto that would not shoot with most ammo. When I say wouldn't shoot, I mean 6 inch groups at 25ft. Oddly, it would shoot with CCI std .5"@ 25ft. Thinking that perhaps the maker had used a centerfire blank (typically a tiny tiny bit larger in diameter) I measured bullets from different ammunition I had tried. The CCI std was the largest. I recall the smallest was fed 711b. Given how differently those different ammunitions performed in other .22lr's I had, I suspect that it was simply a case of the CCI being slightly wider and not bouncing around going down the barrel like the others did.

I think you will find that the cci sv are thick enough to plug the barrel and fill the lands on purpose with thier very soft composition and thick (wax) lube.

You can dig a fingernail right in.
This tesults in me cleaning a barrel every 250 ish rounds to bare, and then fouling with 15-20 to get it running well again. Pita.

And if you are goung to test / shoot a different bullet you should strip the barrel and refoul with the new bullet.

What I think I have seen is some chambers and some brass are (match) and a lot of those bullets are soft with various proprietary hardnesses and lubes that do not mix well. Clean and season between tests.

But that's just imho

 

[Gleedus]

From centerfire benchrest testing, it is pretty well accepted that your barrel muzzle is vibrating mainly in the vertical direction and your load and atmospheric conditions determine the timing of bullet exit. If your muzzle is moving upward, the faster bullet will print lower on the target. Your results make perfect sense to me. We are looking for nice round groups with our tuning. This is when the barrel slows and reverses direction at the top or bottom of the muzzle travel. Your CCI lot is probably better timed for you then your higher quality ammo.

An interesting theory is having the ammo matched with the barrel movement on the upward cycle in such a way that the faster bullets go into the same hole as the slower bullets, seemingly, defying gravity.

I have read on the theory. It makes sense. A lot of guys are running tuners in our PRS rimfire matches now. Some with the results of one tune for all distances some say they couldnt find a tune for all distances 50 yards is one 100 another 200 different again.

Now one of the guys who has good results says that tuning is the same for multiple ammo of the same muzzle velocity.

With centerfire we change seating depth to affect timing so I wondered what about base to ogive differences in a 22lr. The CCI shoots simular to ammo of the same length.
I agree there tends to be more fliers with cheap ammo. Bad good ammo will tend to be big filled groups.
In the rifle Ive used for testing there is a correlation between length and accuracy.

Last season my comp rifle shot a lot of Lapua center X I had well. It was hard to find ammo and I ran out. 2 days before our champion ship I found some shot 50 to confirm zero and get velocity all matched the previous lot shot the match didnt do so hot. Afterwards when I had time I tested at 200 I had 12" vertical groups with the previous ammo I was in the 5s. Why such a difference? What makes a lot good or bad in a rifle? I have no measurements or anything on the previous lot of center X just velocity and bc.

At that point I was doing multiple 10 shot groups for testing. In that rifle CCI sv and federal 711b ran 7"

So now I wonder...

 

[grauhanen]

From centerfire benchrest testing, it is pretty well accepted that your barrel muzzle is vibrating mainly in the vertical direction and your load and atmospheric conditions determine the timing of bullet exit. If your muzzle is moving upward, the faster bullet will print lower on the target. Your results make perfect sense to me. We are looking for nice round groups with our tuning. This is when the barrel slows and reverses direction at the top or bottom of the muzzle travel. Your CCI lot is probably better timed for you then your higher quality ammo.

An interesting theory is having the ammo matched with the barrel movement on the upward cycle in such a way that the faster bullets go into the same hole as the slower bullets, seemingly, defying gravity.

The "positive compensation" theory of tuning .22LR is said to do what you described. Since .22LR ammo must remain as it comes from the factory -- that is, it can't be changed in any way -- the object of tuning a rimfire rifle must be to tune the barrel to the ammo. (In centerfire it's the ammo that gets tuned by changing aspects of the rounds during reloading.) Tuning a .22LR barrel is done with a tuner.

If "positive compensation" works as explained by Geoff Kolbe here Using barrel vibrations to tune a barrel (geoffrey-kolbe.com), a correctly tuned barrel will be able to place faster and slower rounds in the same POI at a given distance. At the same time, it suggests that the particular tuner setting that accomplishes that goal at that distance will be unable to do the same at a very different distance without changes. In other words, according to this explanation, a tuner setting for one distance doesn't work at others.

Nevertheless, while some shooters say that tuner adjustments have to be made between lots and different atmospheric conditions, there are shooters who report never having to change their tuner settings when switching between lots, weather conditions, or between distances such as from 50 yards to 100. In fact they say once they find the "sweet spot" they don't have to adjust the tuner again.

However a tuner does its job of tuning the barrel, shooters shouldn't view it as a panacea, as a solution to improve a mediocre rifle or mediocre ammo. It won't turn bad ammo into good; it won't turn the inconsistent into something consistent. It has the potential to improve ammo that's known to shoot well in a rifle that already shoots well with a naked barrel, is without bedding issues, is used on a stable surface, and is adjusted in very good shooting conditions and retested again and again. A tuner is not a shortcut to improved results.

 

[st1650]

If it chambers cci sv isnt going to hurt your rifle. For training on steel I run cheaper ammo too. In my Rim X the lot of cci sv i have shoots better at 200 yards then the lot of center x and the lot of eley Tenex biathlon I have. Its on par with 1 of my lots of SK rifle match and the SK pistol match I have. For prs comps past 100 yards the consistancy of ammo by measuring or velocity spreads doesnt necessarily coincide with accuracy. The cost of ammo doesn't mean anything either in my testing.
At 50 yards it is different that lot of center x is lights out. Cci is ho hmm.

I'm seeing the same thing. For some weird reasons, CCI SV has incredibly tight SD/ES and shoots better than Center-X.
Center-X shoots fine at 50y but huge vertical due to the velocity ES at 150+. Actually Lapua pistol king also shoots better than center-x and eley eps. Sometimes I'll shoot 5 rounds of CCI SV and they'll be +/- 1fps on my MS3. Surely doesn't make you want to pay the 25$ a box of expensive match stuff.

 

[grauhanen]

I'm seeing the same thing. For some weird reasons, CCI SV has incredibly tight SD/ES and shoots better than Center-X.
Center-X shoots fine at 50y but huge vertical due to the velocity ES at 150+. Actually Lapua pistol king also shoots better than center-x and eley eps. Sometimes I'll shoot 5 rounds of CCI SV and they'll be +/- 1fps on my MS3. Surely doesn't make you want to pay the 25$ a box of expensive match stuff.

Shooters should be very cautious about attributing a universal or across the board behavior for any particular brand of ammo. It's much like saying all lots of a given brand of match ammo -- whether it's Center X, Midas +, or any variety of ammo -- will behave the same way. That would be wrong because they don't.

To put it another way, not all lots of Center X, for example, shoot the same. And not all lots of CCI SV will shoot the same.

While on average CX will have a better ES and other measures of consistency than CCI SV, there may be a few examples where latter performs better than the former. If given the chance to test and select the best lots of both, however,few, if any, serious shooters will choose to shoot CCI SV over CX.

At the risk of a false analogy, Francis Ford Coppola made great movies, but not all were equally good. While he made great films like The Godfather, The Godfather Part II, and Apocalypse Now, he also gave us Jack, a forgetable movie from 1996, and Twixt, a 2011 horror movie no one wants to remember.

 

[Gleedus]

Well said. Not all lots are the same. I look for averages. I like to try several lots of different ammo. Some ammo a rifle is lot picky and some ammo its not lot picky. But every rifle is different. Because I'm not doing bench ultimate accuracy is not as important. But constancy still is.

I find lot to lot there are more variables with cheap ammo. One lot of CCI is crap next is good. CX generally doesnt have deformed lots better qc.

What makes one lot shoot better then another?

 

[nakoa01]

I cant believe what i am reading. One post about putting cci in a Vudoo and another about putting it in a Rimx.

Why would you buy a Ferrari and only put unleaded in it. It's not designed for that and wont perform.

If your looking at a gun for cci std velocity buy a cz or tikka.

As for the the kidd cci thing. Same scenario. Kidd is a match grade rifle. Not designed for bulk ammo. You can not polish a turd.

 

[z28kid]

I cant believe what i am reading. One post about putting cci in a Vudoo and another about putting it in a Rimx.

Why would you buy a Ferrari and only put unleaded in it. It's not designed for that and wont perform.

If your looking at a gun for cci std velocity buy a cz or tikka.

As for the the kidd cci thing. Same scenario. Kidd is a match grade rifle. Not designed for bulk ammo. You can not polish a turd.

Isn't all gas unleaded? I think you meant low octane.
I think the point is you don't have to shoot center x at 25 and 50 yards when the CCI SV will shoot all most as well for a lot cheaper. It becomes apparent the farther you go that the CCI is lacking compared to the others but there is nothing wrong with using it up close, especially for plinking and positional work. Save the top tier stuff for matches or extended ranges in my opinion.

 

[st1650]

I cant believe what i am reading. One post about putting cci in a Vudoo and another about putting it in a Rimx.

Why would you buy a Ferrari and only put unleaded in it. It's not designed for that and wont perform.

If your looking at a gun for cci std velocity buy a cz or tikka.

As for the the kidd cci thing. Same scenario. Kidd is a match grade rifle. Not designed for bulk ammo. You can not polish a turd.

It’s not like I can’t afford RWS50 or Lapua Midas. My point is that on my RimX, at distance, 200-300m. I got better results with my current lot of CCI SV than with my Center-X. Using my MS3 I seen that I have way tighter SD/ES with the SV than with Center X. It’s purely anecdotal, but it’s been my experience so far. If Center-X was shooting better then it’s what I would be using.

 

[Gleedus]

I cant believe what i am reading. One post about putting cci in a Vudoo and another about putting it in a Rimx.

Why would you buy a Ferrari and only put unleaded in it. It's not designed for that and wont perform.

If your looking at a gun for cci std velocity buy a cz or tikka.

As for the the kidd cci thing. Same scenario. Kidd is a match grade rifle. Not designed for bulk ammo. You can not polish a turd.

If my RimX or Vudoos life is jeopardized by running CCI it wasnt worth buying.... I have a CZ in the room that shoots very close to the RimX does that mean I shouldn't shoot CCI in it either?

What about SK magazine? Is that better?

I think we are talking two different scenarios. I shoot PRS style matches 100-400 yards. The accuracy of your rifle is a very small portion of where you place. I shoot lots of bulk ammo when doing drills on steel. At a match I use the right fuel for the ferrari. Thats not a good comparison because the RimX makes CCI sv shoot better then the Ruger did.

Most guys are not able to shoot the difference at 2-300 yards between CCI sv and say oh Center X oh wait the lot of Center X on my shelf actually shoots worse in my RimX then the CCI lot I have! Each rifle has its own preferences and each ammo has its good and bad lots so to write them all off by the name is poor planning if you need a economical ammo for practice.

My best ammo is Eley force and Contact both run 4" 20 shot groups at 200 yards. I'm sure if your rifle likes lapua it would shoot like that too. The CCI sv I have is 7.5" Federal Target is 7.5" so call that bulk ammo average. Off of a barricade in a 8- 12 mpr wind most guys will never see the difference statistically.

 

[Bungi]

I guess I was hoping to be able to drive my Ferrari around town, as well as on the race-track.

The fact that my KIDD shoots CCI SV's so well --- That is likely what prompted such false hope

A Tikka is probably in my future --- With the Bergara still in contention.

 

[Bungi]

No Tikkas in stock -- Not sure when they will be.

 

[nakoa01]

Geeze nevermind

 

[nakoa01]

I guess I don't understand the logic and refuse to try to. To me it is like buying a dragster and putting unleaded in it. If ammo gets so expensive and hard to come by they will sit on the wall before putting bulk ammo through one.

 

[Js9088]

I guess I don't understand the logic and refuse to try to. To me it is like buying a dragster and putting unleaded in it. If ammo gets so expensive and hard to come by they will sit on the wall before putting bulk ammo through one.

I think it is about expectations and being careful with hard bolt close. I would guess cci sv would shoot good enough in my vudoo to win a nrl22 style match. That said I don’t shoot it often and never in matches. Additionally I would never shoot it if it caused a hard bolt close. I have shot a bunch of if when my son shoots with me, no harm done, expectations in line with results.

 

[Gleedus]

I guess I don't understand the logic and refuse to try to. To me it is like buying a dragster and putting unleaded in it. If ammo gets so expensive and hard to come by they will sit on the wall before putting bulk ammo through one.

Well how much 22lr ammo do you shoot in a year? That could make a difference.

Hard bolt close is lot# dependent but mostly chamber dependent. Reliability and flexibility are important to me. We all but ran out of sk and lapua up here last season. If my rifle was built around lapua ammo Id be screwed. But as it was I can shoot Eley just fine and for some reason we can find Eley no problem anytime.

I dont see a rifle as a cute something to hang on the wall it gets used. If there is hard bolt close then no dont use it. To insinuate that someone is stupid or careless to run CCI sv in a good quality rifle has an inflated view of the rifle. If the rifle is purpose built with a chamber that cant run CCI sv then dont use it. Be that a Vudoo CZ Savage brand doesnt matter in that case. If its chambered to run Stingers run stingers.

 

[Js9088]

Well how much 22lr ammo do you shoot in a year? That could make a difference.

Hard bolt close is lot# dependent but mostly chamber dependent. Reliability and flexibility are important to me. We all but ran out of sk and lapua up here last season. If my rifle was built around lapua ammo Id be screwed. But as it was I can shoot Eley just fine and for some reason we can find Eley no problem anytime.

I dont see a rifle as a cute something to hang on the wall it gets used. If there is hard bolt close then no dont use it. To insinuate that someone is stupid or careless to run CCI sv in a good quality rifle has an inflated view of the rifle. If the rifle is purpose built with a chamber that cant run CCI sv then dont use it. Be that a Vudoo CZ Savage brand doesnt matter in that case. If its chambered to run Stingers run stingers.

I agree.

 

[Luke22:36]

Break in? What’s this sorcery you speak of?

Put the best ammo in it you can get and shoot it....No CCI....

MB

Per the man who should know of what he speaks regarding a V22...

 

[nakoa01]

Exaclty

Per the man who should know of what he speaks regarding a V22...

 

[nakoa01]

Per the man who should know of what he speaks regarding a V22...

Yep EXACTLY

 

[nakoa01]

As

Well how much 22lr ammo do you shoot in a year? That could make a difference.

Hard bolt close is lot# dependent but mostly chamber dependent. Reliability and flexibility are important to me. We all but ran out of sk and lapua up here last season. If my rifle was built around lapua ammo Id be screwed. But as it was I can shoot Eley just fine and for some reason we can find Eley no problem anytime.

I dont see a rifle as a cute something to hang on the wall it gets used. If there is hard bolt close then no dont use it. To insinuate that someone is stupid or careless to run CCI sv in a good quality rifle has an inflated view of the rifle. If the rifle is purpose built with a chamber that cant run CCI sv then dont use it. Be that a Vudoo CZ Savage brand doesnt matter in that case. If its chambered to run Stingers run stingers.

For how much I shoot. Probably case and a half a year I would guess. I shoot everyday. And in the winter time every single day.

 

[Gleedus]

Per the man who should know of what he speaks regarding a V22...

And he is right for two reasons.

#1 they typical chamber for optimal use with Lapua. They will do other chambers if you wish to run CCI etc.
#2 it will tend to make the Vudoo look better if the people that have them only shoot high end ammo. Nobody is disputing the fact that on average the average rifle will do better with better ammo.

John Deere did that when they introduced the STS combines. Told us its a revolutionary design. Sure it was good BUT the reason it was so good is they spent time educating the farmers on how to set the combine for optimal performance. Set right its way way better then something just as good not set right. Its just good sales and taking care of customers.

 

[Gleedus]

As

For how much I shoot. Probably case and a half a year I would guess. I shoot everyday. And in the winter time every single day.

Ok So you do know what it costs then to just shoot good ammo. I average half a case a month 80% is cheap stuff for practice. I also like to have a project testing something going to help keep learning.

 

[nakoa01]

Dont know the cost. Just know I wouldn't put cheap ammo through a rim x or center x. I don't keep up with the cost much.

 

[Gleedus]

Dont know the cost. Just know I wouldn't put cheap ammo through a rim x or center x. I don't keep up with the cost much.

I do lol. Up here I'm $6-7 for 50 "bulk" and $16 for Center X. I currently spend $6000.00 a year on 22lr ammo. Imagine what that would be if I shot all CX!! I dont go to Tim Hortons everyday like the other guys at work. That $7... hey its another box of ammo!

This brings up one of the great things about opinions and having our own equipment. If I had to treat my rigs like you treat yours I probably wouldn't enjoy it. If you had to treat yours like I do mine you wouldnt enjoy it. This way we both get to enjoy shooting!

Cheers.

 

[grauhanen]

Well said. Not all lots are the same. I look for averages. I like to try several lots of different ammo. Some ammo a rifle is lot picky and some ammo its not lot picky. But every rifle is different. Because I'm not doing bench ultimate accuracy is not as important. But constancy still is.

I find lot to lot there are more variables with cheap ammo. One lot of CCI is crap next is good. CX generally doesnt have deformed lots better qc.

What makes one lot shoot better then another?

What makes one lot shoot better than another? That's a good question. From the perspective of my limited experience, it seems that there are two main aspects at play. One is ammo itself and the other is the barrels of rifles.

First, the barrels.

Often lots that shoot well in one barrel also shoot well in others. But that's not necessarily true of all lots. It's possible to have one good rifle shoot a certain lot very well and another good rifle not do so well with it.

Each barrel is different, not only in obvious ways such as length, but in less obvious ways even in barrels from the same model or manufacturer. These may play a role in how different lots respond or behave in different barrels. Bores can vary in diameter from leade to muzzle. Some may be looser or tighter at different places. Different barrels may have rifling with characteristics that are dissimilar. Some bores are smoother than others and some may be straighter than others. It's likely that different chambers influence the behavior of different lots.

Add together all or a combination of the above factors and the result is that different lots of ammo behave differently in different barrels.

The ammo itself can be different from lot to lot.

Significantly, even though the ammo may look alike and come from packages with the same name, different lots of ammo have differences that are not obvious. Differences often discussed but invariably invisible to the eye include variation in component weight and dimensions as well as bullet concentricity and base-to-ogive length. When such factors have peculiarities characteristic with certain lots, they may in combination affect how the ammo responds from barrel to barrel.

While the better grades of ammo boast better and better quality control, there are, to use Eley as an example, some 50 "primary variables" -- "basics like bullet mass, case internal volume, and propellant charge mass" -- as well as literally hundreds of other factors that are monitored. (For more on these, see The Best of The Best Gets Better (shootingtimes.com.) These variables must fall within a certain range for each variety of ammo, but still different lots can retain different characteristics unique onto themselves, just as each species' progeny, who may be of the same parents, are different even though they might share similarities.

 

[Gleedus]

What makes one lot shoot better than another? That's a good question. From the perspective of my limited experience, it seems that there are two main aspects at play. One is ammo itself and the other is the barrels of rifles.

First, the barrels.

Often lots that shoot well in one barrel also shoot well in others. But that's not necessarily true of all lots. It's possible to have one good rifle shoot a certain lot very well and another good rifle not do so well with it.

Each barrel is different, not only in obvious ways such as length, but in less obvious ways even in barrels from the same model or manufacturer. These may play a role in how different lots respond or behave in different barrels. Bores can vary in diameter from leade to muzzle. Some may be looser or tighter at different places. Different barrels may have rifling with characteristics that are dissimilar. Some bores are smoother than others and some may be straighter than others. It's likely that different chambers influence the behavior of different lots.

Add together all or a combination of the above factors and the result is that different lots of ammo behave differently in different barrels.

The ammo itself can be different from lot to lot.

Significantly, even though the ammo may look alike and come from packages with the same name, different lots of ammo have differences that are not obvious. Differences often discussed but invariably invisible to the eye include variation in component weight and dimensions as well as bullet concentricity and base-to-ogive length. When such factors have peculiarities characteristic with certain lots, they may in combination affect how the ammo responds from barrel to barrel.

While the better grades of ammo boast better and better quality control, there are, to use Eley as an example, some 50 "primary variables" -- "basics like bullet mass, case internal volume, and propellant charge mass" -- as well as literally hundreds of other factors that are monitored. (For more on these, see The Best of The Best Gets Better (shootingtimes.com.) These variables must fall within a certain range for each variety of ammo, but still different lots can retain different characteristics unique onto themselves, just as each species' progeny, who may be of the same parents, are different even though they might share similarities.

Thanks for the link. I shall have a read.

The question of is there good lot# that on average are simply better in many rifles is one I have wondered. It seems there should be. But rifles are also individuals.

The bore diameter well I have no experiance in such matters Ryan at IBI told me some and he said finding the right bore diameter was a bit of work for our canadian cold hot variation.

In broad strokes bullet diameter doesnt correlate with accuracy in my tests.

At -10⁰c Federal target loses stability in my Rifle. -8 it still kinda works just odd fliers.
CCI not till -15⁰c the better ammo still is good.

I have to get out with one of my other rifles and see if federal is stable in it.

There is definitely more going on then I will ever understand. Just because ammo measures or weights more consistent doesnt mean good long range performance. I see the better ammo having less fliers but larger SD of POI from center then some of the cheaper ammo. Some times that is. If you can find a high quality ammo that shoots good then your wining!

A guy that is doing some barrel length testing is saying on average the ammo that shoots best in the rifles is the same regardless of the length of barrel as he is cutting them down. He's not done yet but thats how its looking. Now our focus is long range so BR may find that very different results we are after 2-300 yard results.
Sooo. Maybe good and bad ammo lots... but maybe ammo chamber compatibility is the key for long range consistency?

Yes Ammo quality is the biggest issue but we cannot change that.

Sorry this is way off topic now and I cant even pull CCI in a vudoo into this post.