Wait for PVA or....?

[C_R_Slacker]

When was the last time anyone saw a well known smith come on here to have to explain themselves and make more excuses? I'm not sure i ever have, and i know there are a few that are active on the site. It's not just regarding the Hancock rifle either. This is a pattern. He may make great stuff, but so do others...without the BS and excuses.

 

[wade2big]

When was the last time anyone saw a well known smith come on here to have to explain themselves and make more excuses? I'm not sure i ever have, and i know there are a few that are active on the site. It's not just regarding the Hancock rifle either. This is a pattern. He may make great stuff, but so do others...without the BS and excuses.

To be fair, the industry is full of missed deadlines and radio silence. Multiple threads on the matter. I’m sure you know that though. I poked fun and said it was bad business to miss deadlines myself. At least they are coming on here and talking. I am a relatively recent customer of PVA. Four barrels ordered and received. The last two within days. I can’t vouch for last year but this year they have been good to me.

I wouldn’t be happy if I had pre-ordered a JHC rifle and it was a year late either, but if it were made right then I would let it go. I am also wise enough not to pre-order stuff in the first place.

 

[bohem]

To be fair, the industry is full of missed deadlines and radio silence. Multiple threads on the matter. I’m sure you know that though. I poked fun and said it was bad business to miss deadlines myself. At least they are coming on here and talking. I am a relatively recent customer of PVA. Four barrels ordered and received. The last two within days. I can’t vouch for last year but this year they have been good to me.

I wouldn’t be happy if I had pre-ordered a JHC rifle and it was a year late either, but if it were made right then I would let it go. I am also wise enough not to pre-order stuff in the first place.

I'm glad you're happy with what you are receiving from us now and I appreciate your continued business. Thank you.

 

[10ring1]

Yes. Quality PVA work. Just one of dozens of groups just like this from my PVA impact 6.5 prefit

 

[C_R_Slacker]

To be fair, the industry is full of missed deadlines and radio silence. Multiple threads on the matter. I’m sure you know that though. I poked fun and said it was bad business to miss deadlines myself. At least they are coming on here and talking. I am a relatively recent customer of PVA. Four barrels ordered and received. The last two within days. I can’t vouch for last year but this year they have been good to me.

I wouldn’t be happy if I had pre-ordered a JHC rifle and it was a year late either, but if it were made right then I would let it go. I am also wise enough not to pre-order stuff in the first place.

I'm sure there are lots of missed lead times in the industry. I've never understood why some accept that as "normal." But I'm referring specifically to the disproportionate number of threads on this site directed towards PVA. Not just with the Hancock rifle, but going back a few years. What i don't appreciate is there seems to be a pattern of big promises that he fails to deliver on. When customers, especially new ones, hear these promises they jump on board. If more realistic expectations had been communicated from the get go, those customers might have shopped around a little more and decided to work with a different shop instead. A six week promise turns to six months. Another shop might have quoted and been able to deliver in four months, but didn't get the business because PVA was out there writing checks they couldn't cash.

Maybe PVA has their ducks in a row now and are consistently coming through on time. I hope that's the case. But with so many good shops to choose from, I'll be choosing someone else for my next barrel or rifle.

 

[bohem]

To be fair, the industry is full of missed deadlines and radio silence. Multiple threads on the matter. I’m sure you know that though. I poked fun and said it was bad business to miss deadlines myself. At least they are coming on here and talking. I am a relatively recent customer of PVA. Four barrels ordered and received. The last two within days. I can’t vouch for last year but this year they have been good to me.

I wouldn’t be happy if I had pre-ordered a JHC rifle and it was a year late either, but if it were made right then I would let it go. I am also wise enough not to pre-order stuff in the first place.

I'm sure there are lots of missed lead times in the industry. I've never understood why some accept that as "normal." But I'm referring specifically to the disproportionate number of threads on this site directed towards PVA. Not just with the Hancock rifle, but going back a few years. What i don't appreciate is there seems to be a pattern of big promises that he fails to deliver on. When customers, especially new ones, hear these promises they jump on board. If more realistic expectations had been communicated from the get go, those customers might have shopped around a little more and decided to work with a different shop instead. A six week promise turns to six months. Another shop might have quoted and been able to deliver in four months, but didn't get the business because PVA was out there writing checks they couldn't cash.

Maybe PVA has their ducks in a row now and are consistently coming through on time. I hope that's the case. But with so many good shops to choose from, I'll be choosing someone else for my next barrel or rifle.

It has become the cool thing to do to bitch about me on this forum, especially by people who dont do business with me. It is the new fanboy thing and God forbid someone says "I never had a problem" cuz they must not know what they're talking about.

Our process allows me to track metrics very closely now. Over 97% of all orders ship in time in the last 6 months and each month that gets better because an older bad month drops off the rolling list.

We had problems, we spent a lot of capital to fix them. We are leading the industry for custom machine work lead times, especially when customers are not supplying the parts. While non-customers like you are complaining about me here there are 3 other threads on the top page of forum sections of SH talking about they are waiting 12-20 weeks for rebarrel work even though they were quoted 6. "Sure cant wait to see the new stuff" Where is your moral outrage over there? Nowhere. Because it isnt the cool thing to do to bash that guy... at least not yet.

We strive to develop our customers into clients. We fell on our faces last year and are busy picking ourselves back up. You dont want to do business here, ok. Nobody is forcing you. When someone does and they come back 4, 5, 6 times in a year then they have clearly found a relationship that works well for them.

 

[cjs88]

I haven't ordered anything from PVA yet. I have been in contact with them asking questions about various topics though. They have been quick at responding and gave me no reason not to use them for a new Tikka barrel when I feel like pulling the trigger on one.

 

[Thecelt]

.

We strive to develop our customers into clients. We fell on our faces last year and are busy picking ourselves back up. You dont want to do business here, ok. Nobody is forcing you. When someone does and they come back 4, 5, 6 times in a year then they have clearly found a relationship that works well for them.

Im not a customer, but I can respect someone who owns their mistakes and tries to learn and do better.

 

[sleeplz]

I'll never order from pva again. I wanted to give them a try but when it was near my quoted time, I told them not to ship it was I was moving. Guess what, they ship it to the old address and he states he can't reroute the package even though other great companies can.

Pva states I should forward mail through usps but the package was sent through fedex/ups so it's not gonna work. Too many good gunsmiths and options than to deal with pva.

 

[cjs88]

I'll never order from pva again. I wanted to give them a try but when it was near my quoted time, I told them not to ship it was I was moving. Guess what, they ship it to the old address and he states he can't reroute the package even though other great companies can.

Pva states I should forward mail through usps but the package was sent through fedex/ups so it's not gonna work. Too many good gunsmiths and options than to deal with pva.

I feel like that's on you for ordering a barrel that has a fluctuating completion time before moving.

 

[sleeplz]

I feel like that's on you for ordering a barrel that has a fluctuating completion time before moving.

Maybe, but if I email you and tell you not to ship it because I'm moving to a new address, and than you ship it to my old address 3 days after I tell you not to ship it, what more can I do?

 

[wade2big]

Maybe, but if I email you and tell you not to ship it because I'm moving to a new address, and than you ship it to my old address, what more can I do?

Call.

 

[sleeplz]

Call.

I did. Even called before I ordered to say I was mil and my orders were getting cut at any time. Assured as long as I stayed in contact.

 

[cjs88]

I'll never order from pva again. I wanted to give them a try but when it was near my quoted time, I told them not to ship it was I was moving. Guess what, they ship it to the old address and he states he can't reroute the package even though other great companies can.

Pva states I should forward mail through usps but the package was sent through fedex/ups so it's not gonna work. Too many good gunsmiths and options than to deal with pva.

Maybe, but if I email you and tell you not to ship it because I'm moving to a new address, and than you ship it to my old address 3 days after I tell you not to ship it, what more can I do?

Call.

Yes, call for quicker service. I emailed Manners a couple days ago now and haven't heard back. Are they a bad company to deal with now because I haven't heard back?

 

[sleeplz]

Yes, call for quicker service. I emailed Manners a couple days ago now and haven't heard back. Are they a bad company to deal with now because I haven't heard back?

Called and emailed, he told me I'd have to figure it out...

 

[wade2big]

I did. Even called before I ordered to say I was mil and my orders were getting cut at any time. Assured as long as I stayed in contact.

I was just giving you a hard time.

 

[cjs88]

Did you call before or after it shipped? If it was after, then there's not much one can do. I called the other day to get some dog shampoo taken off a dog food order when it was preparing for shipment, not shipped yet and they couldn't do anything.

 

[sleeplz]

Did you call before or after it shipped? If it was after, then there's not much one can do. I called the other day to get some dog shampoo taken off a dog food order when it was preparing for shipment, not shipped yet and they couldn't do anything.

Call and email before saying not to ship barrel. The email prompts PVA to cut barrel and ship to old address 3 days later. Theres just too many options out there, I wont deal with PVA again. The barrel shoots 1/2 moa but it was 100fps slower than others barrels. Theres just no reason for me to go back.

 

[kriller134]

I was a pva customer in 18 and hope to be one again soon. Josh makes a fantastic product and is generous with his time and answered all of my questions. That why I bought my first barrel from him. Still on it, but need a new one soon. Sure people got fucked on the Hancock delay. I get that people are upset about it and you have every right to be. Josh comes on here from time to time(not as much as he used to) to give updates about what’s going on. People say he’s making excuses and I understand that, but I also see that he’s taking accountability for his mistakes. There’s always a theme in these threads and that’s the few people shitting on him and pva and then the happy customers. It’s the constant shitting on vendors that make them not want to come on here and interact with the community. It happens far too often on gun forums and that’s too bad. If you don’t like pva then don’t shop with them, but don’t shit on them every chance you get. It just seems like some are rooting for pva to fail and imo that’s not what the 2a community needs. There comes a time to move on and I think that’s the best solution for all involved. @bohem keep up the good work you do and keep innovating, keep improving your company and I wish you the best.

 

[Codiekfx400]

Pva makes great products at a fair price. Pva has missed some dates in the past. Let’s stop beating up a Commercial supporter on this site. Use PVA products if it suits you or don’t lets leave it at that.

 

[C_R_Slacker]

It has become the cool thing to do to bitch about me on this forum, especially by people who dont do business with me. It is the new fanboy thing and God forbid someone says "I never had a problem" cuz they must not know what they're talking about.

Our process allows me to track metrics very closely now. Over 97% of all orders ship in time in the last 6 months and each month that gets better because an older bad month drops off the rolling list.

We had problems, we spent a lot of capital to fix them. We are leading the industry for custom machine work lead times, especially when customers are not supplying the parts. While non-customers like you are complaining about me here there are 3 other threads on the top page of forum sections of SH talking about they are waiting 12-20 weeks for rebarrel work even though they were quoted 6. "Sure cant wait to see the new stuff" Where is your moral outrage over there? Nowhere. Because it isnt the cool thing to do to bash that guy... at least not yet.

We strive to develop our customers into clients. We fell on our faces last year and are busy picking ourselves back up. You dont want to do business here, ok. Nobody is forcing you. When someone does and they come back 4, 5, 6 times in a year then they have clearly found a relationship that works well for them.

I am a customer. Why do you assume I'm not? I'm speaking from experience. I would never blindly say something like i did just because other people on a forum are. That's retarded.

Anyway, maybe i just got unlucky, but does that make it wrong for me to share my experience on a forum? I mean, that's kinda the point, right? That's business, man. When a customer has a bad experience, it is something like 10x more impactful to them than a good experience.

For what it's worth, the rifle shoots. I'm happy with the finished product. It was the process of getting it that made me a one time customer. You're not going to miss me. Sounds like you've got plenty of happy customers that do more business in one year than i will in ten.

 

[bohem]

I am a customer. Why do you assume I'm not? I'm speaking from experience. I would never blindly say something like i did just because other people on a forum are. That's retarded.

Anyway, maybe i just got unlucky, but does that make it wrong for me to share my experience on a forum? I mean, that's kinda the point, right? That's business, man. When a customer has a bad experience, it is something like 10x more impactful to them than a good experience.

For what it's worth, the rifle shoots. I'm happy with the finished product. It was the process of getting it that made me a one time customer. You're not going to miss me. Sounds like you've got plenty of happy customers that do more business in one year than i will in ten.

Sounds like you got caught up in all of the hassles we have talked about. That sucks and I am sorry it happened.

However at the same time I cant go back in time and change it then so I have to move forward and change the path. We have been doing that, and doing it successfully for over a year. Your experience mattered for me to make a hard course correction on the pathway that had evolved.

You had a bad experience and the issues you had factored strongly into our course of business going forward. Beating a dead horse over a dead issue seems irrelevant to me for the discussion of the topic at hand.

Which I might add, the OP found our invoice sitting in his SPAM box so the 11 outstanding hancocks will be 10 shortly.

Like someone else said, the forum constantly has threads on it of people dogpiling vendors and we wonder why vendors dont come on here much.

The only reason I was even on the forum today was because I pulled my back this morning and couldnt stand in front of a CNC anymore.

 

[j741]

Yes, Josh, another thread about how shitty PVA is. Maybe it's because of all the truth in it and your continued insistence on failing to take responsibility for failures.

wow, Josh is really going all out with his lying now. I'm impressed by his commitment to avoid responsibility and to make shit up so that he sounds good. But, if he wants to make stuff up, I'll go the other way and provide the truth:

Truth - The store credit was for a barrel order that was cancelled a few days later due to having been told in a phone call with Jeremy it would take much longer than expected. Even though it was only a few days, I accepted a store credit instead of asking for a refund. Josh is making shit up now because he couldn't find that information, likely due to incompetence or the state of PVA systems. By that time I was done dealing with him and told him he should find it himself as I was no longer interested in helping him.

Truth - When PVA was having issues and I was waiting on my Origin barreled action I contacted Josh to try to help with automating their process. This was my first experience with Josh blaming other as Josh stated that the reason his Origin actions were delayed is because LRI came in and flashed money to ARC to make the Mausingfield hunters and it wasn't Josh's fault. He was quick to blame ARC & LRI for his failure to negotiate and contract a deal. I misplaced my trust and believed him and wanted to help him out. I worked with Jeremy who explained how screwed up their process was, how manual it was, and how many order errors it led to. I kept trying to work with them to automate the process and improve it but ran in to continued changes in requests and lack of feedback on demos provided. I never asked for nor received any compensation for the time I spent on this project with Jeremy, which would have been well in excess of $500 if I had billed for it. I gave up on it when I kept providing approaches and solutions and getting zero feedback or engagement and then Jeremy left PVA. I tried to rush to complete the work before Jeremy left but did not get responses to my attempts. So, I gave up. But I never asked for nor was given compensation for my work. Yet again, Josh shows his psychopathic capacity to lie and pull shit out of his ass.

Truth - The barrel Josh sent did not allow the bolt to close. I don't know how he f'd it up as I'm now a gunsmith, but he did. Even a low priced barrel from X-Caliber worked fine in the same action. I posted pics on the forum and then, as I had posted on this forum, I sent it back to him to figure out the flaw. With his emails and attitude, I was done. Josh had already demonstrated his failure to take responsibility for his commitments and I just wanted my money back. So I disputed the charge instead of wasting time dealing with a liar. I walked away from a $500 credit just so I wouldn't have to deal with him any more. Any other claims he makes up are bullshit from a psychopathic liar. He claims to have pictures. Well, I too have pictures of what was packed up and sent to him as I had already learned his behavior and that he may try to blame me for something, but the extent he went to was still suprising. Shows his lying has no bounds.


For those who haven't' been burned by PVA yet, I hope you don't have the experience even though odds are against you. But I also hope you increase your chances of a good experience by not dealing with a psycopath like Josh.

 

[j741]

Like someone else said, the forum constantly has threads on it of people dogpiling vendors and we wonder why vendors dont come on here much.

Funny, I don't recall seeing a dogpile on LRI and yet they're on here supporting their products. Same with Zermatt, Cadex, and many other vendors. Sure, maybe shit vendors get piled on and leave. But good ones stick around. There must be some reason that people pile on PVA complaint threads. Do you think you can figure out why? Here's a hint - it may be because the truth will come out.

 

[kriller134]

 

[bohem]

Kinda my thoughts too. There's plenty of good budget custom actions they could base off.

The action is private labeled. The rifle was sold with the promise of that private labeled action. Filling it with anything except that specific action would make itinelligible for production class.

We did offer the option of a different action at no other cost to several folks who asked. Some took it but most didn't because of the production class eligibility change. Most of those guys opted for refunds and we issued them.

It would be a nice tidy solution to swap out the action but that is not what waspromised, it wouldnt be production class legal, we cant just do that. What you're suggesting would be the same as buying a Rem700 and it shows up with a Winchester action on the rifle. It can be done as a gunsmithing project but not as a production practice.

 

[bohem]

Maybe, but if I email you and tell you not to ship it because I'm moving to a new address, and than you ship it to my old address 3 days after I tell you not to ship it, what more can I do?

Unfortunately this was a problem in the past and I dont doubt for a second that you tried to tell us. We had some major issues in the shop and some people here that were unable to do their job effectively. We went from 8 heads in March last year to 4 right now. There was a misc9nception on my part that having more people to split off the work into more manageable chunks was the solution. Turns out cutting dead weight was the solution.

The result is that the people who do care about it are now here and we are getting the clean process executed consistently.

When Jeremy left he was getting back to emails in 3 weeks at best. Joe is consistently handling them in under 24hr on average. Occasionally a day or two but not 3 weeks. It happened then amd the only thing I am.able to say about it now is that the situation didnt fall on dead ears, it has changed substantially.

 

[bohem]

Yes, Josh, another thread about how shitty PVA is. Maybe it's because of all the truth in it and your continued insistence on failing to take responsibility for failures.

wow, Josh is really going all out with his lying now. I'm impressed by his commitment to avoid responsibility and to make shit up so that he sounds good. But, if he wants to make stuff up, I'll go the other way and provide the truth:

Truth - The store credit was for a barrel order that was cancelled a few days later due to having been told in a phone call with Jeremy it would take much longer than expected. Even though it was only a few days, I accepted a store credit instead of asking for a refund. Josh is making shit up now because he couldn't find that information, likely due to incompetence or the state of PVA systems. By that time I was done dealing with him and told him he should find it himself as I was no longer interested in helping him.

Truth - When PVA was having issues and I was waiting on my Origin barreled action I contacted Josh to try to help with automating their process. This was my first experience with Josh blaming other as Josh stated that the reason his Origin actions were delayed is because LRI came in and flashed money to ARC to make the Mausingfield hunters and it wasn't Josh's fault. He was quick to blame ARC & LRI for his failure to negotiate and contract a deal. I misplaced my trust and believed him and wanted to help him out. I worked with Jeremy who explained how screwed up their process was, how manual it was, and how many order errors it led to. I kept trying to work with them to automate the process and improve it but ran in to continued changes in requests and lack of feedback on demos provided. I never asked for nor received any compensation for the time I spent on this project with Jeremy, which would have been well in excess of $500 if I had billed for it. I gave up on it when I kept providing approaches and solutions and getting zero feedback or engagement and then Jeremy left PVA. I tried to rush to complete the work before Jeremy left but did not get responses to my attempts. So, I gave up. But I never asked for nor was given compensation for my work. Yet again, Josh shows his psychopathic capacity to lie and pull shit out of his ass.

Truth - The barrel Josh sent did not allow the bolt to close. I don't know how he f'd it up as I'm now a gunsmith, but he did. Even a low priced barrel from X-Caliber worked fine in the same action. I posted pics on the forum and then, as I had posted on this forum, I sent it back to him to figure out the flaw. With his emails and attitude, I was done. Josh had already demonstrated his failure to take responsibility for his commitments and I just wanted my money back. So I disputed the charge instead of wasting time dealing with a liar. I walked away from a $500 credit just so I wouldn't have to deal with him any more. Any other claims he makes up are bullshit from a psychopathic liar. He claims to have pictures. Well, I too have pictures of what was packed up and sent to him as I had already learned his behavior and that he may try to blame me for something, but the extent he went to was still suprising. Shows his lying has no bounds.


For those who haven't' been burned by PVA yet, I hope you don't have the experience even though odds are against you. But I also hope you increase your chances of a good experience by not dealing with a psycopath like Josh.

I will give it to you, you run a tight scam. The part you screwed up is that I didnt unpack it, Joe did. Joe is a licensed PI with an implacable record of testimony in court. He handled everything with the police report on you.

I do agree with you on one point, I dont know how we screwed up an Origin prefit after how many we have made and the Poka Yoke pieces every barrel goes through before leaving, so we sent a call tag. But the bag of stainless tumbling media you sent here doesnt seem to fit the action either.

Your story doesnt even make sense, why would LRI and ARC have anything to do with Origins. Get your lies in order John, your BS is slipping.

We are done with you, but just like you can run around on forums and spread false testimony I can send the Police report info to the other shops you frequent. One of them stated to me that they already make copious notes or record your calls because of the tendency you showed them at confusing details and forgetting what you said.

This is the same kind of stuff that I caught you lying about in emails. Claiming we never notified you, but 2 emails prior you stated you missed our call. Then you back pedal and start cussing at us only to claim you never did so even when I have the emails to demonstrate otherwise. And your phone calls were so obscene that Joe refused to talk to you.

Things like this dont add up John. As one person said to me when your vitriol really began in earnest here "he seems way too upset over something being late or messed up, there has to be more to this story". When I provided the rest if the info to them it all made sense.

To those still reading this thread disaster:

I will say it again, we stumbled and fell down. The amount of tasks involved in shop expansion, new employees, new equipment and new products buried the capabilities of the shop and overwhelmed me. Picking ourselves up has taken a while and an awful lot of work. The people who have placed orders since July 19 are almost universally reporting the same thing. Product is delivered quickly, product is exceptional quality, communication has been great. Even from people who are not customers they report excellent communication and support. The people who stuck with us have reported a marked difference in how things went before to how they have been going for a while now.

I dont know how we can do more than own it, apologize and fix the problems moving forward. If someone has some suggestions or an issue now please email me so we can work on it and solve the problem you are experiencing.

 

[SPAK]

I’ve been a pva customer since the start of the company and I have been more than pleased with them. From full rifle builds, prefits, custom barreled actions, muzzle brakes etc. I’ve had it all. Even barrels and actions from other smiths that were problem children for me they have always found the issue and fixed them when others couldn’t.

2018-2019 have had some rough spots but every company goes through growing pains and truthfully some of these issues were created from the outside in. Hard decisions needed to be made and PVA did everything they could to make it right and mitigate issues for customers.

OP, I would contact josh and see what can be worked out. I know for a fact turn around times on actions, barrels, Bullets and barreled actions are really quick right now. Faster than I’ve ever seen. Their barrels are too notch and I’ve never had a bad one. In fact most of them are boringly accurate. I don’t have one that doesn’t shoot sub .3 moa right off the bat and almost all of them have shot .2s or less.

don’t buy into the garbage that’s floating around. PVA is a company I have dealt with for a long time and my loyalty is there for a reason. If things were truly as crappy as some people are making it, trust me I would have bailed a long time ago.

You guys complaining about lead times, several years ago I had a build that took 3 years to complete from another smith. Rifle is great, I had no issue with waiting. company was growing and parts issues came up I just waited it out. That same company is turning things Round much quicker now and they are doing well. So for me, even waiting a year on a rifle for missed deadlines isn’t near as bad as what I’ve seen in the past.

Bottom line call up pva, you’ll be happy you did.

 

[cjs88]

I'm am very pleased I chose to read this thread. It has turned in to a new Netflix crime docuseries, "John Exotic: The Barrel King." (title subject to better name suggestions) An 8 episode special about how he tried to murder a popular gunsmith's reputation via online forms.