Range Report Warner Tool Flat Line Projectile 122gr 6.5 Variant

[Supersubes]

The whole deal has me scratching my head as well, I'm going to hold of loading anymore rounds until there is some more published data. I'm patiently waiting to see what others get as far as speed, pressure, and results.

I may have missed this, but what are the specs on rhe gun? What does it do with a 120/123 jacketed bullets? 3099 is a max load In every .260 ive ever owned. In fact, ive never been to 3100 with any of mine. Usually 2950-3000 is where I end up. Back it off and do a proper workup. Jeffvn had to guess at his QL inputs. Give him some more data on your setup so he can fill those in properly.

 

[blacknwhite11]

Alright since I've been getting pm's about my setup and data ill just lay out what I have experienced so far. Let me start off by saying that Warner tool has been a great company to work with and Dan has been very helpful in my specific situation, I look forward in continuing to deal with them in the future.

the rifle:

Savage Model 12 LRP
.260 remington
26'' stock barrel
1-8 twist

my standard load is
42.5gr H4350
Berger Hybrid or RDF
CCI primer
0.030 off
2850fps
1/2 moa


the flatline load data:

Using a Hornady overall length tool and a flatline projectile I measure my lands at 3.287'' ,using the Hornady 5-26 bullet comparator. This means to obtain the 0.030'' jump that I decided to start with I had to seat my rounds at 3.257'' ,again this was using the comparator. When I measure the COAL of a finished round without a comparator I get a measurement of 2.990''.

My goal was to get these flatlines to over 3100fps like the article explained.
Using the Quickload data and an email that I received from Warner Tool I decided to try Reloader 17 and Varget first.

Lapua brass
CCI BR2 primers
the above measurements

RL17 - Quickload showed this going up to 43.78gr at 3141 fps

41.6 - 3011
41.9 - 3065
42.2 - 3089
42.5 - 3095
42.8 - 3118
43.1 - 3105
I began to show pressure at 42.5gr but very slight, I stopped at 43.1 because i didn't feel safe going any higher based on what I was seeing.


Varget - It was suggested that I start at 41gr and work up from there

41.0 - 3099
41.3 - 3115
Normally I wouldn't shoot another if I popped a primer but I did this time to see if it was due to a loose primer pocket. BOTH of these loads blew primers.

that all was on Saturday, after speaking with dan and a few others my results seemed off and the possibility of an error on my end seemed likely in my opinion so today I returned to the shop and tore all the rounds down that I didn't shoot yesterday. I re measured anything and everything I could think of and didn't find any wrong per se. Being as I'm pretty familiar with H4350 and I get great results with it I figured today I would try it with the Flatlines. I used the same measurements and brass, primers as before, just a different powder.


H4350

40.0 - 2959
40.3 - 2966
40.6 - 2963
40.9 - 2970
41.2 - 2993
41.5 - 3007
41.8 - 3016
42.1 - 3037
42.4 - 3049
42.7 - 3058
43.0 - 3100
I began to show very slight pressure at 42.1 and by the time i reached 43.0 it was very prominent so I stopped there.

All of the velocities recorded were using a Labradar.

As you can see I was shooting ladders to find OCW. I was shooting at 300 yards. Today using the H4350 on shots 3,4, and 11 I had Key holes indicating the bullet was tumbling. This never showed itself with the RL17. I'm a bit confused at this point and I plan on watching this thread to see how other people and their loads develop. Any suggestions or CONSTRUCTIVE criticism are welcome.

Brock

 

[Lowlight]

Tumbling at 300 yards seems hard to do, are you sure you didn't accidentally skip them ? In all my testing with any Warner bullet I never had one tumble.

There are a couple of spots where you can back off a bit and stick to the 3050fps vs 3100 as that rifle clearly doesn't like it. Being a Savage it's hard to say what it could be. I would do a good cleaning, then try a few of those loads in the 3050fps range as that would still give you a decent result.

if the RL17 works, stick with it.

I had no problem with primers the first day with the load I used, and then on the hotter day blew several. Still results were good. I would probably adjust that load to not blow them in the higher temps, but overall there is a lot to work with in your data. Just find a spot and stick with it. If your rifle can't reach 3100fps then back it down a bit

 

[lash]

I'm not sure if this is relevant to your situation, but using the .256 Flatlines in a stock Savage 110 LRP barrel, I also have trouble getting to speeds and loads that others get to. I am led to believe that the button-rifled stock barrel at only 10 twist might be part of the issue. It has been suggested that a cut rifled barrel in 9 or 9.3 twist would work better for these turned solids (in .338). I just load mine somewhat slower than the max others get and still get great results with Dan's published BC holding up really well at distance.

My point is that I had a stock button-rifled Savage barrel in the minimum suggested twist rate for the projectile size and found that I had to back off or got pressure signs. Even so, my downrange results were very good. I see that the minimum suggested twist for the 6.5 is 8, meaning your situation might be somewhat parallel to mine.

 

[jbailey]

Lapua brass
CCI BR2 primers
the above measurements


Brock

Brock -
I have heard several 260 rem owners complain about pressure using the Lapua 260 brass. One knowledge gunsmith told me that Lapua 260 brass is a bit big, which produces tight chambers for guys with chambers cut using non-Lapua reamers. Imagine that your Savage is not cut for Lapua 260 brass. I don't have a 260 nor have had one, so this is just me picking it up 2nd hand.

Anyway, I might suggest to you that you try a few of your 121gr Flatline loads using a different 260 brass type (non-Lapua).

Also, if you know and like H4350, I would use it. Especially since 4350 is such a good 260 powder. Don't chase other powders with a new (and expensive) bullet. Take one variable at a time.

Best of luck,
James

 

[blacknwhite11]

I appreciate the words of wisdom, I haven't shot anymore of these projectiles yet, still waiting to see what some others experience. according to JBM 3k fps is still plenty for my needs. Had a 1 mile shot on my bucket list for a while now and have been working up to it. I was hoping these would help get me there. Currently shooting rdf's and hybrids as far as 1480 yards with pretty good results. I'll be taking my time with these new flatline projectiles.
Thanks again for the advice. and if anyone has and experiences with these please pass it on.

 

[Rthur]

Brock -
I have heard several 260 rem owners complain about pressure using the Lapua 260 brass. One knowledge gunsmith told me that Lapua 260 brass is a bit big, which produces tight chambers for guys with chambers cut using non-Lapua reamers. Imagine that your Savage is not cut for Lapua 260 brass. I don't have a 260 nor have had one, so this is just me picking it up 2nd hand.

Anyway, I might suggest to you that you try a few of your 121gr Flatline loads using a different 260 brass type (non-Lapua).

Also, if you know and like H4350, I would use it. Especially since 4350 is such a good 260 powder. Don't chase other powders with a new (and expensive) bullet. Take one variable at a time.

Best of luck,
James

This^^^, the lapua brass is considerably thicker in the neck.
From memory the lapua reamer was .004 larger in diameter at the neck.

R

 

[30calDeath]

I think this just confirms my next build will be a .260, thanks Warner Tools.

 

[Timo Turl]

Brock -
I have heard several 260 rem owners complain about pressure using the Lapua 260 brass. One knowledge gunsmith told me that Lapua 260 brass is a bit big, which produces tight chambers for guys with chambers cut using non-Lapua reamers. Imagine that your Savage is not cut for Lapua 260 brass. I don't have a 260 nor have had one, so this is just me picking it up 2nd hand.

Anyway, I might suggest to you that you try a few of your 121gr Flatline loads using a different 260 brass type (non-Lapua).

Also, if you know and like H4350, I would use it. Especially since 4350 is such a good 260 powder. Don't chase other powders with a new (and expensive) bullet. Take one variable at a time.

Best of luck,
James

Interesting. I've found Lapua .260 brass is 50 fps faster with exactly the same load over Norma brass. The former shows pressure signs, the latter doesn't. Thx

 

[Supersubes]

This^^^, the lapua brass is considerably thicker in the neck.
From memory the lapua reamer was .004 larger in diameter at the neck.

R

Traditionally, match .260 reamers of old were around .295 neck, to go with a domestic brass loaded neck of .290-.291. Saami .260 neck diameter has always been .297-.298. Loaded lapua .260 measures .294. Blacknwhite shouldnt be pinching anything in a savage.

 

[Rthur]

Traditionally, match .260 reamers of old were around .295 neck, to go with a domestic brass loaded neck of .290-.291. Saami .260 neck diameter has always been .297-.298. Loaded lapua .260 measures .294. Blacknwhite shouldnt be pinching anything in a savage.

I've seen 260's that pressured up at common loads that used win or rem that changed to lapua.
This could have been case capacity that contributed to this problem.
Also the neck could have contributed. Sometimes the brass likes to have more elbow room on bullet release.

R

 

[blacknwhite11]

As far as my situation, my setup is pretty in line with what you'd expect with loads and pressure up until this point.

42.5gr of H4350 under a 140 hybrid averages about 2856 with SD of 6.8

 

[17874]

As far as my situation, my setup is pretty in line with what you'd expect with loads and pressure up until this point.

42.5gr of H4350 under a 140 hybrid averages about 2856 with SD of 6.8

That is the exact load I run in my Savage .260, but I have a 26" Shilen barrel. I am going to try the 123 Scenars over Varget in my wife's .260 and see what I can get out of that load. I tried 140's over IMR-4155 because I didn't want to dip into the H-4350 for my .260. I was just able to get 2,740 before I hit pressure. My .260 load shot 2,853 out of her rifle with no pressure signs. I should be able to push the 123's to 3,000 without an issue.

 

[acourvil]

For the folks who have already received some of these, what is the base to ogive measurement and the bearing surface measurement? And if anyone is shooting berger 140 vlds, how much longer is the nose from the ogive compared to the vlds?

 

[blacknwhite11]

anyone shot any of the warner tool 6.5's out of anything yet?

 

[the_accuser]

anyone shot any of the warner tool 6.5's out of anything yet?

I'm headed to the range tomorrow morning to fire a few through my 20" Tikka 260. I'll report back after lunch.

 

[blacknwhite11]

Went and did a little more testing today with these new solids.

lapua brass
cci br2
.030" off the lands

Reloaded 19

40.0 - 2769
40.3 - 2784
40.6 - 2777
40.9 - 2819
41.2 - 2808
41.5 - 2845
41.8 - 2853
42.1 - 2870
42.4 - 2893
42.7 - 2925
43.0 - 2958
43.3 - 2932
43.6 - 2950
43.9 - 2953
44.2 - 2991 this was a very slightly compressed load.

no pressure signs at all, but it is apparent that for me and my rifle these bullets are on the razors edge of stability. No bullets hitting sideways keyholing but a few oblong holes.

 

[the_accuser]

So I fired a few through my 20" Tikka CTR .260 this morning. My initial goal was to see if I could hit 2900 fps.

Brass: Lapua - 4x fired; full length sized; annealed; trimmed to 2.025" on Giraud trimmer
Primer: 210M
Powder: IMR 4166

First test was with the info I got from Dan. All 3 shots had no signs of pressure and the COAL was 2.830"
38.0 - 2755
39.0 - 2857
40.0 - 2891

Second test was using a COAL of 2.870" for a different length magazine.
39.0 - 2796
40.0 - 2887
41.0 - 2945 (slightly compressed load; slightly flat primer but no ejector marks on brass or heavy bolt lift)

Last was just 1 bullet using my factory magazine with a COAL of 2.900"
41.5 - 2957 (slightly flat primer and a tad heavy bolt lift but no ejector marks on brass)

I load up a few more around the 41.0 mark to see how they group.

 

[Dan Warner]

Went and did a little more testing today with these new solids.

lapua brass
cci br2
.030" off the lands

Reloaded 19

40.0 - 2769
40.3 - 2784
40.6 - 2777
40.9 - 2819
41.2 - 2808
41.5 - 2845
41.8 - 2853
42.1 - 2870
42.4 - 2893
42.7 - 2925
43.0 - 2958
43.3 - 2932
43.6 - 2950
43.9 - 2953
44.2 - 2991 this was a very slightly compressed load.

no pressure signs at all, but it is apparent that for me and my rifle these bullets are on the razors edge of stability. No bullets hitting sideways keyholing but a few oblong holes.

So if you're getting oblong holes, there is indeed a question of stability. I have been over this here on the Hide in the past, but here it is again. Button barrels are sometimes not quite as marked because of the process in which the are made. Sometimes, you get a little more than you bargained for because of tooling and material stretch. So, your barrel is advertised as an 8 but may be 8.25. I would certainly check this in this case, as it might be that cause of the instability (these 121's need an 8 twist). You can do this with your cleaning rod with a snug patch on it and a tape measure.

I would also like to know what the difference is between case capacities of the Hornady and Lapua brass. What I have been supplying for starting loads has to this point been based on the QL default capacity and I believe it to be for the Hornady, but am not certain. If someone can give me water weight (grains) capacities for both, and specifically for what you are using, I can better tune the load data.

 

[acourvil]

Lapua water weights from my guns (260 remington):

unfired - 53.3
gun #1, 1x fired - 54.6
gun #2, 1x fired - 54.9

I haven't used hornady brass in either of my 260s for quite a while, but I think I may have some old 1x hornady brass and will try to pull out a few cases and measure them later for comparison

I think you are using 53.8 in the start load data that you sent me, so my Lapua brass actually has a little more capacity than that.

 

[blacknwhite11]

Any news or results?

 

[trh29]

Looking for 260 info.

 

[NoLegs24]

Any good luck on specific seating depths?

Velocities I'm getting out of my 26" 6.5x47L through Labradar.................. Lapua Brass and CCI 450 Magnum Primers

Varget

36gr - 2880
37gr - 2920
38gr - 2980

H4350

39.5gr - 2870
40.5gr - 2930
41.5g - 2990
42gr - My Forster Ultra Micro Seater didn't like this 'compressed' load and the bullet kept getting stuck in the stem lol so didnt go higher than 41.5... have to get it polished

H4350 did the best with the pressure testing loads (3 per .5gr) in grouping and better SD/ES

Gotta play with seating depth though

 

[Bull81]

Tagging in

 

[Bull81]

Any good luck on specific seating depths?

Velocities I'm getting out of my 26" 6.5x47L through Labradar.................. Lapua Brass and CCI 450 Magnum Primers

Varget

36gr - 2880
37gr - 2920
38gr - 2980

H4350

39.5gr - 2870
40.5gr - 2930
41.5g - 2990
42gr - My Forster Ultra Micro Seater didn't like this 'compressed' load and the bullet kept getting stuck in the stem lol so didnt go higher than 41.5... have to get it polished

H4350 did the best with the pressure testing loads (3 per .5gr) in grouping and better SD/ES

Gotta play with seating depth though

Im interested in these as well for a 6.5x47 what kind of accuracy were you getting and did you have any of the stability issues some others have reported?

 

[lash]

Im interested in these as well for a 6.5x47 what kind of accuracy were you getting and did you have any of the stability issues some others have reported?

So far, I have only seen one person post that he thought he was having stability issues. Have you seen others?

 

[Bull81]

So far, I have only seen one person post that he thought he was having stability issues. Have you seen others?

No but I thought I saw were someone said something about it being on the edge of stability but I could have miss read. Definitely interested in these slick little pills

 

[lash]

I'm pretty sure that these will be a great option for certain applications. If I recall, optimal twist rate is 8, but like always, factors like MV and other barrel specific details will have an effect on individual results.

If I were not so busy with stretching out the .338 Flatline solids as far as I can possibly take them in my less than optimal factory Savage barrel right now, I would probably be playing with these instead.

 

[acourvil]

Well, I haven't seen any comments on these for a while, so I'll add a little more data. I tried a sample group of these with H4350, 26" 8 twist barrel, 260 Rem, loaded fairly long (2.935 OAL). First, they were a pleasure to load. Very consistent, no need for any kind of sorting, very consistent seating, pretty much perfect from a production standpoint. I also got very consistent speeds and low SDs when they were fired. Unfortunately, they did not group well for me. I'm going to try again with deeper seating and see what happens, but it will be a while before I have time to do that.

For the folks using quickload, I got something very close to my actual speed curve using a 121.9gn bullet weight and 7700psi start pressure with H4350, the actual case capacity for my brass and approximate bullet measurements done by hand. I haven't tried it with any other powder yet, and even with H4350 it was over a small range, so I don't know if those variables will provide a reasonable approximation outside of the conditions I used.

 

[the_accuser]

I shot another couple of charges with IMR 4166 in my .260 Tikka CTR. The rounds were all over the place. I'm going to switch to Varget to see if I can get them to group together.

 

[lash]

Have any of you guys talked to Dan Warner directly to get his take on optimal loads recommendations and other pointers? I know that he is usually more than willing to offer up advice and assistance.

 

[Mormegil87]

Anyone try this in a 6.5 Creedmoor over Lapua Brass and Federal Gold Medal Match Small Rifle primers?

 

[acourvil]

Have any of you guys talked to Dan Warner directly to get his take on optimal loads recommendations and other pointers? I know that he is usually more than willing to offer up advice and assistance.

For my 260 Rem, I asked Dan for load recommendations and he provided a quickload-generated list of possible loads.

 

[blacknwhite11]

still keeping a close eye on these to see if anyone can get results......or get any speeds near what frank got in his review.

 

[the_accuser]

I'm throwing in the towel and giving up. I've tried 5 different powders and different seating depths and the best I could do was maybe a four inch group at 100 yards. In case someone asks, yes I did do some load tests with information provided by Dan. They just won't seem to stabilize in my Tikka .260 CTR. Most of the holes on paper are oblong in shape.

 

[Dan Warner]

If the holes are oblong, you have a clear case of instability. What is the advertised twist rate of your barrel? What is the barrel type (cut or buttoned)? No load or seating depth will cure the instability if it is a characteristics of the barrel are to blame.

 

[Lowlight]

Tikka is a 1-8 twist with 4 grooves. Hammer Forged

 

[the_accuser]

Tikka is a 1-8 twist with 4 grooves. Hammer Forged

Thanks Lowlight and Dan I really do appreciate they information and advise you gave me. I was so hoping they would work. I did hit the speed i was hoping for very easily. If anybody does get these to work in a factory Tikka CTR .260 barrel please update the thread or PM me.

Jason

 

[Lowlight]

I pulled my factory tikka barrel otherwise I would give it a try...

 

[blacknwhite11]

Still watching this, I thought others may run into a stability issue. AB stability calculator says for my conditions I need at the minimum 1/7 twist rate. I'm only 520ft altitude.

 

[Dan Warner]

While it may be close, the AB stability calculator is not absolute with regard to solids. In fact, this goes back to what we have been saying since we started making these: "Forget what you know with regard to data on jacketed bullets and what is printed with respect to load data, as it does not apply". Solids are certainly a different animal and require different practices, including load densities and barrel twist rates for stability. An 8 twist is certainly fine for our 121's. While a 7 would be even better, an 8 is certainly good. You can always go faster than what we recommend, but not slower. The 8 is what we recommend for the 121, and we know it to be stable in an 8 because we have tested it and we have many shooting them in 8's now with great success.

I have stressed to many that you should verify the twist in your barrel too. Even though it is advertised, or even stamped with a specific twist, there mare be some variation due to mfg process and tolerance that could put you in the unstable zone.

There are issues, however, with certain 'factory' barrels that simply do not perform. It is not in every case, but there is certainly a track record with Savage barrels and those reporting troubles. Some are working fine, some are not. My theory is that is it because of they way they are made.

 

[blacknwhite11]

Has anyone on the hide other than frank had any good success with these? I saw another thread of a guy having problems loading with a creed. Just curious if anyone has gotten them to work, and if so what are they experiencing.

 

[the_accuser]

So yesterday I loaded up the last 4 bullets with the following:

brass: Lapua
primer: 210M
powder: 39.0gr Varget
coal: 2.830"

I had cleaned the hell out of my barrel and then fired a few strings before firing the last 4 solids. This time I was able to get a group around 1.9" at 100 yards (before it was about a foot or more) and the holes in the target appeared normal. I should have shot them over the chrono but didn't. I may order another 50 to try again. I'm thinking in my Tikka CTR that the bullet may want a very long jump.

 

[lash]

Fwiw, I'm jumping mine pretty well even loaded long in my .338 and they seem fine. Another thing to try, since I haven't seen it mentioned, is to not mix regular jacketed loads and the solids while doing load development and shooting these. I know that there are claims that these are different than other solids, but I didn't start to get decent results until I stopped shooting anything but solids from the barrel. It's almost as if I had to "season" the barrel for them.

That's just my experience and opinion.

 

[joemusso]

tag in

 

[Conrad]

Is there enough data now to make some deductions on the 122’s?

Better to lean faster than 8 twist?

Better to jump them a good bit, like .125”?

Has anyone cut a freebore dedicated to them for a more normal distance to lands?

Did the barrel actually need some seasoning shots for them to settle?

 

[TripleBull]

Anyone here try Flatlines in a 6.5 PRC yet?

 

[Bradu]

I didn't have any luck with my 260 using a .015" jump. My groups were 3-4 inches before I hit major pressure at 42 grains of varget. I didn't see any need to try to go on with different powder or seating depths. That was a 1/8 twist barrel.

 

[AZgeek]

I'm willing to bet 3 of 4 people just say screw it. Too much trouble, too much expense to get these to work - if at all. I had the darndest time getting the 160 to shoot well out of my .308's. May have found out why but have not had time to continue load development.

 

[Bradu]

I'm willing to bet 3 of 4 people just say screw it. Too much trouble, too much expense to get these to work - if at all. I had the darndest time getting the 160 to shoot well out of my .308's. May have found out why but have not had time to continue load development.

That's just it, I'm not wasting my money for what they cost when they shot that bad. I really wanted to try some of the others but after that experience I will stick with traditional bullets. I would have loved to seen them work and get them to run in my saum. I will just buy a bigger caliber and run that from now on.