Warsport LVOA feedback

[deadly0311]

Does anyone have hands on with one of these rifles? Im intrigued by them but the lack of everyday joes is holding back. Any one care to give the good the bad and the ugly? I'm not looking for the fan boy bashing or praising, just the honest feed back

 

[Redmanss]

Hmm... Never heard of them until this post. I would ask [MENTION=2051]J.Boyette[/MENTION] as it looks like he's involved with the company: John Boyette | LVOA

Tricked out rifles for sure!

 

[Lofty]

Ridiculous pricing.

It's gimmickry. .....The only thing unique is that they managed to get a 14.5 inch barrel to run with a rifle length gas system by using a venturi styled gas port ......With certain types of ammo.

It's to finicky to be trustworthy.

Build an 18 inch barrel rifle with a rifle length gas system, put a JP LMOS with a silent capture spring in it and a surefire brake. You get the same results, save money and have a more reliable rifle.

You'll never notice the extra 3.5 inches but you'll get more velocity save enough money to buy a nice optic and a couple cases of ammo for it.

 

[J.Boyette]

Before I start down this road, I work for War Sport Ind now.

Hmm... Never heard of them until this post. I would ask @<a href="http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/member.php?u=2051" target="_blank">J.Boyette</a> as it looks like he's involved with the company: John Boyette | LVOA

Tricked out rifles for sure!

Thanks for the plug. Its been a while since I have been on SH, let me see if I can cover deadly0311's questions.

Ridiculous pricing.

It's gimmickry. .....The only thing unique is that they managed to get a 14.5 inch barrel to run with a rifle length gas system by using a venturi styled gas port ......With certain types of ammo.

It's to finicky to be trustworthy.

Build an 18 inch barrel rifle with a rifle length gas system, put a JP LMOS with a silent capture spring in it and a surefire brake. You get the same results, save money and have a more reliable rifle.

You'll never notice the extra 3.5 inches but you'll get more velocity save enough money to buy a nice optic and a couple cases of ammo for it.

Sir, You must of never used our rifles. You have many false points in your above post. Please, lets be honest and real in out views of systems we place our hands on and not review from a laptop. I ask you for starters show me whats a gimick in our system? Is it how the handguard helps dissipate the muzzle flash shape? Is it the parts we use? Could it be the green color? Please do tell. On the gas system you typed we run a rifle gas system on a 14.5", that's not true, we run a mid gas system on both the 12.5" and 14.5". Next the rifles run all kinds of ammunition from PMC 55grn to MK262, even the XM193 to steel case wolf 55grn. so I do not know how finicky you are looking for, but that's a wide range of ammunition for you?

On the 18" rifle with a rifle gas system I have two of them, both run great and I agree they are damn near a perfect semi-auto percision rifle build. But the LVOA is a system not built for precision rifle use, its a carbine. As we all know quaility guns must be precision made, and ours is not exception as posted the LVOA is not designed for that role, but does work real well. so well in fact I took mine to the state Sniper School and passed with no issues.

Here is some data I have collected by MY USE of the system BEFORE working at War Sport Ind.

Article of my time at NCDOJ Sniper School

Using the War Sport Ind LVOA as a precision rifle at 600yds ---> LINK



deadly0311,

Sorry about all the above, I needed to de-bunk some false information.

What data are you looking for? I know of two old time SH members with LVOA's in use right now, and I can direct you to other owners if you wish to talk with them. Also I have had mine since 2012 and can cover most if not all questions you might have. Give us a call if you like, or shoot me a email or best, post it here and I will do my best to cover all questions.

Thanks

John

 

[deadly0311]

John,

Thanks for weighing in.

My biggest concern is being tied to the Battlecomp. I'd prefer to run my SF can, with that said what downsides or cons are there to removing the battle comp and installing a SF muzzle brake? Other than the legalities of it being an SBR for a very short period of time.

Watching the videos that I have found online it looks like a very fast flat shooting gun. What attributes effect this the most? Without getting into proprietary data how were you guys able to make it such soft shooting and flat?

Likewise, looking at the rail are there sections that can be attached to add picatinny for various lights/lasers/QD points?

How does the rail handle heat?

In some of the videos I noticed quite a substantial muzzle flash, I thought the purpose of the rail was to mitigate this? What about night fires? Is the muzzle signature pronounced?

Who's barrel blanks are being used?

Thanks for the time John

 

[deadly0311]

Likewise Lofty, what time do you have on the rifle? If you have time behind it Id like your input, but I knew the question would solicit those responses.

 

[J.Boyette]

I wanted to cover each question you made, so here is my stab at it.

My biggest concern is being tied to the Battlecomp. I'd prefer to run my SF can, with that said what downsides or cons are there to removing the battle comp and installing a SF muzzle brake? Other than the legalities of it being an SBR for a very short period of time.

The LVOA is designed with the battle Comp, the porting on the handguard is cut in such a way that Battle Comps are the only aftermarket muzzle devise at this time that will work as we intend it too. Now with the can and the SF break, you understand the can will not fit under the LVOA handguard?

Watching the videos that I have found online it looks like a very fast flat shooting gun. What attributes effect this the most? Without getting into proprietary data how were you guys able to make it such soft shooting and flat?

The direction porting we do with the gasses is all in design, unlike most firearms the recoil impulse (lack of) was a focus from the start for us. So we are able to keep the muzzle down and keep the recoil impulse as flat as we can.

Likewise, looking at the rail are there sections that can be attached to add picatinny for various lights/lasers/QD points?

Yes and yes, the LVOA ships with two pieces of rail, and if you look closely the threaded holes at the 3 & 9 o’clock running the whole length are spaced like KeyMod. On the KeyMod remove the (cone) and the part will bolt right on up.

How does the rail handle heat?

Very well, at about 80rounds + the handguard gets CRAZY hot due to the heat coming off the gas block (like any system) I personally feel the odds of end users shooting that many rounds in one string is only in poorly managed carbine classes. If it’s a SHTF situation the heat of the handguard is the last thing on your mind. LOL

In some of the videos I noticed quite a substantial muzzle flash, I thought the purpose of the rail was to mitigate this? What about night fires? Is the muzzle signature pronounced?

Very true, we have found that the cheaper ammunition of all bullet weights has a flash aspect. This is because of the lower quality of the powder used, and most people are at sea level. Density Altitude plays a huge part, as in if a person shoots PMC 55grn at sea level in the summer we will have a flash, if the same rifle and ammo is shot in the mountains the flash will go away. Owners using higher quality ammunition and a side by side compression of other 14.5” rifles or 12.5” you will see a drastic reduction in flash of the same barrel length shooting the same ammunition. This is where our system shines, it can not 100% get gone muzzle flash, but in the worst case we can port it to the 3 & 9 o'clock and get it out of the line of sight.

Who's barrel blanks are being used?

Right now we have orders from most of the big named match barrel high production families. This is because it’s hard to get bulk match barrels in 1/8 twist in the amount we use. So we order from the normal suspects. Based on who ships what when is what decides what name brand goes on the rifle. We take in blanks, contour them, port them, chamber them to .223 Wylde and install the barrels.
One cool aspect is soon, very soon we will be making our own barrels.

At the end of the day the rifle will shoot very well for its design. I keep telling people the trend of late, forcing a rifle to perform duties its not designed for is problematic. The LVOA is a go fast, go loud carbine, not a SBR precision rifle system (but it can do it very well) .

The LVOA-S is the flagship, the LVOA-C was built so people can own one with out a stamp. I tell people all the time the LVOA is not for everyone, but the people it is for, love it and it fits the need very well.

Keep the questions flowing.

John

 

[deadly0311]

John,

Appreciate the comments. I know it's not intended for a precision gun. I want/need another 300 and in flat fast shooting rifle.

How would you compare the LVOA to the SR15? I've got numerous thousands if rounds on that platform and love it. I have narrowed my choice down to another SR15 or the LVOA. I'm just trying to weigh the pros and cons of each platform.

On a side note John, you guys sell just upper assemblies correct? That is a complete upper with BCG?

 

[J.Boyette]

Honestly I can not say. I do not have enough time behind the any "SR" to give a compression.

But this might help.

I have as posted two 18" rifle gas system guns built by Frank White of Compass Lake Engineering, one is a MK12 Mod 1 the other is a race gun. Anyhow, the LVOA is smoother at 14.5" mid, then these 18" rifle.

Yes we do sale just uppers with all the trimmings to include recoil buffer and spring.

John

 

[Lofty]

First let me say that no, in all honesty I have not ever had the chance to shoot one of these rifles. I will also say that I do find the idea and concept pretty cool....but it is in the reality VS the concept that I feel things slide backwards.

I guess what I am saying is, I cannot figure out what problem existed with AR's that this one solves. Almost the solution looking for a problem as it were. While I have not shot this rifle, I have put more rounds down range through so many different AR-15 / M4 style platforms it would be difficult to count them all, including full auto M4 style rifles.

OK, so the LVOA reduces felt recoil.....ok, not exactly a big issue in the 5.56 world, I have never thought of it as a hard recoiling round anyways......does anyone for that matter? In a full auto I can see where it makes a bigger difference but how many of War Sports customers will be shooting full auto? Secondly, anyone could configure an AR as I had mentioned in my previous post for half the cost and get the same reduction in felt recoil.

In semi auto firing, I'd be willing to bet no one would ever notice the difference.

Flash reduction? That is addressed the same way....a longer barrel will typically clear that up when used with a good flash / compensator.


So yes, if you absolutely HAVE to have all of that in a 14.5 barrel package I guess I can see where spending $3000 to get it might make sense.


As far as reliability, while I have not shot the rifle myself, a very close friend of mine has. He is a LEO that does rifle / carbine training for law enforcement agencies throughout the South East US. He got to spend a few days using one in training. He felt the rifle was very well put together with some nice attention to detail. He described it as a "boutique" gun. He did mention that it did not like cycling lighter ammo. He was shooting some form of XM193 and it did malfunction while using it.....dont remember what kind of malfunctions though. He did say though that with Black Hills 77 grain it ran flawlessly.


So with all that being said, forgive me....I should have pre-faced my comments with the fact that I had never actually fired one of War Sports rifles and should have also noted that it is my opinion only, Im no expert.

On the other hand, I know what "problems" the LVOA is designed to resolve and I know how much it costs to do so. For me personally I cannot understand spending $3000 on an AR-15.

 

[deadly0311]

Lofty,

I like you have put plenty of rounds down range with various ARs including the select fire versions. Reason I asked the question in the first place was to get the good bad and ugly. Thanks for your response.

I am with you the 556 isn't a harsh recoiling round at all. But any edge that I can get to shoot faster and have the gun recoil flatter I'll take. Sure the looks of the gun have a part in the decision to consider it.

Likewise who is he trainer buddy who ran one and could you PM me his contact info so I can pick his brain as well?

Also I have a 14.5 SR15 that's at the top of the heap for me so I am trying to weigh the pros and cons of the LVOA system. This gun isn't intended to be a precision gun, actually quite the opposite, it will be a Aimpoint T1 topped 300 and in gun.

 

[Djstorm100]

While I have not ran the LVOA in a course, I have shot a few mags through it (pmc bronze and ate it like a fat kit eating cake). I will admit the difference in the flatness and recoil impulse made me go.."wow" with the difference vs my DD and BCM. My BCM is "tuned" while my DD is untouched in that regard. I would love to have a LVOA but at the same time I'm not LEO or Mil but I'll probably own on at some point in my life. It does fill a void IMO.

 

[Lofty]

If you want to PM me your email, I will forward it to him and see if I can get him to give you his feedback.

Let me be clear, he said it was a very nicely put together rifle with high quality parts. If it was in the $1800-$2000 range, I would probably buy one myself.

Again, it is just my opinion that the same result can be achieved with much less money.

I put this rifle together using high end parts;

POF Gen III lower, Larue upper, Wilson TTU trigger, A5 buffer system. WOA DMR barrel at 18 inches with a rifle length gas system, KAC TT brake, JP silent capture spring. Ive got about $1700 in the whole rifle.

It shoots lights out, recoils like a fairy fart and runs like a raped ape.....its just 3.5 inches longer than an LVOA.

Lofty,

I like you have put plenty of rounds down range with various ARs including the select fire versions. Reason I asked the question in the first place was to get the good bad and ugly. Thanks for your response.

I am with you the 556 isn't a harsh recoiling round at all. But any edge that I can get to shoot faster and have the gun recoil flatter I'll take. Sure the looks of the gun have a part in the decision to consider it.

Likewise who is he trainer buddy who ran one and could you PM me his contact info so I can pick his brain as well?

Also I have a 14.5 SR15 that's at the top of the heap for me so I am trying to weigh the pros and cons of the LVOA system. This gun isn't intended to be a precision gun, actually quite the opposite, it will be a Aimpoint T1 topped 300 and in gun.

 

[Luke]

I'll throw in my $0.02 since I just got an LVOA-C a month ago.

First and foremost I think it's somewhat silly to debate how much the rifle costs. If we were all looking for the most rifle for the cheapest cost, everyone on Sniper's Hide would run a Savage, and Accuracy International would be out of business. In all honesty, I didn't buy the rifle because I thought it was $1000 better than a DD, BCM, etc. I didn't buy the rifle because of hype or to be the cool guy, heck, I hadn't even heard of War Sport until I had a LVOA in my hand. I bought the rifle first and foremost because the first time I picked up the rifle it fit me perfectly and just felt right which is invaluable when it comes to the primary tool that keep you alive in battle, secondly, it is well thought out and built with quality components, and thirdly, I was confident that my money was going to a family owned business that has integrity, and backs up their product - that was worth the $3000 to me and it took me close to a year to save up for it. If you can build a similar AR-15 that shoots well and gives you a warm fuzzy for $1500, all the more power to you! With most everything firearm related, it all comes down to personal preference...

I'm one of the wonky right hand/left eye shooters so when I first started looking at the LVOA's, John suggested that I get a left-handed upper, so that's what I did. So far I really like not having brass thrown in front of my face, but after shooting standard M4's and AR-15's in the Army and civilian life it's taking a little getting used to. On regular right-handed actions I really like being able to see into the action with minimal movement and clearing malfunctions with my right hand, so it will take some training to become as proficient with the lefty action. Not to mention it would behoove me to keep non-interchangeable spare parts on hand should I ever need them.

It's hard to explain the recoil impulse of the LVOA but it's more mild than any other AR I've shot. Not that an AR recoils much anyway, but it definitely is a nice feature of the rifle. My initial perception of the muzzle blast is that it is also somewhat milder than a conventional exposed muzzle, but I haven't had a chance to do a side by side comparison to verify. Overall, it's very pleasant to shoot.

When I was zeroing the ACOG TA11 I was getting about 1.5 MOA groups off my backpack, so I feel it's a very accurate rifle, and I have no doubt that it would be a 1MOA or less rifle with good ammunition, higher magnification scope, and a solid rest.

The first time I saw the rifle I didn't quite get why you'd want the handguard so far down the barrel, but it's proven to be a great feature. You can lean the rifle up against anything and not worry about barrel deflection, you never have to worry about burning your hand on exposed barrel or melting anything if you throw it in the case or in the back seat of your car, you can attach your sling near the muzzle for maximum support and no worries about barrel deflection from the sling. The handguard is rock solid, with no wiggles or flex. Lots of location options for mounting accessories without being too bulky (i.e. quad rail). My hand fits around the handguard nicely without it feeling too small, or to big. The barrel is slightly recessed so you won't damage the barrel if you ever feel the need to muzzle smash something. I like how the handguard attaches and does not raise your sight height. My biggest complaint about my POF is the dang handguard makes everything too high.

For 99.9% of my applications I will never use the bungee cord on the handguard, but it weighs next to nothing so I'll leave it on there...

The CMC trigger is great. No creep, clean break, and comfortable pull weight.

The 45 degree selector switch is nice.

All the ambi-controls are great.

It's not a super light rifle, but doesn't feel heavy either.

I like the color...

It would be cool if you could fit a suppressor under the handguard, but I don't feel like it's a deal breaker that you can't. Like John said, it's a go fast, go loud rifle. If you could fit a suppressor under there, I know I would probably try, and in the process lose the balance of the rifle, overall simplicity of the system, and create more problems with carbon blow back and potential cycling issues. Kind of a "sour-grapes" attitude but it works in my head anyway

So in summary....is it the best thing since sliced bread? No, probably not, but it suits my wants and needs, and I didn't mind saving up for it.

Edited to add: The TA11 is working out nicely but I think Trijicon needs to slap the designer of the killflash. It's so wiggly and unsecure I put the handstop in front of it to keep it tight and in place. I could totally see myself knocking off the killflash and loosing it without my ghetto fix...

 

[Lofty]

Luke....great points, sexy rifle.

No doubt, price alone cannot be the determining factor in a rifle purchase and in the end who cares? Its your money, your rifle and as long as you are happy with it that is all that matters.

That being said I think the comparison of a Savage to an Accuracy International is a bit extreme. You can get rifles that are every bit as nice and well built, rugged, reliable and accurate as a War Sport Ind rifle for a third less money. A Savage will never be as nice, well built, rugged and reliable as an AI.

I'll leave this here and bow out of the conversation as I was not trying to start a debate as to whether or not anyone should or should not want a War Sport rifle. I was simply saying to the OP who was interested in one that if you are looking for basically the same results, there are cheaper ways to get it without sacrificing an ounce of quality.

 

[Luke]

That being said I think the comparison of a Savage to an Accuracy International is a bit extreme. You can get rifles that are every bit as nice and well built, rugged, reliable and accurate as a War Sport Ind rifle for a third less money. A Savage will never be as nice, well built, rugged and reliable as an AI.

Agreed I was merely comparing the base accuracy of the two... AI has everyone else beat in every other way.

I was simply saying to the OP who was interested in one that if you are looking for basically the same results, there are cheaper ways to get it without sacrificing an ounce of quality.

Agree again! Thanks for sharing Lofty!

 

[Red343]

I'm getting edumacated

I always thought LVOA just sold the fancy looking Rails. Did not know they also built rifles. Learn something new every day.


OP, Sorry didn't have anything to add about the rifle.

 

[J.Boyette]

I'm getting edumacated

I always thought LVOA just sold the fancy looking Rails. Did not know they also built rifles. Learn something new every day.


OP, Sorry didn't have anything to add about the rifle.

The only user of the rail is War Sport and Salient Arms at this time. We have never and I mean NEVER sold a rail without it being a complete rifle or upper.

Luke,

Give that lefty upper a bit to grow on you, if its too much we can put on a righty if needed. I am glad you enjoy the rifle.

John

 

[Redmanss]

I like how this thread turned out, some good lessons in here with a view of new firearms innovations from the inside. While one of these or even an upper really isn't in my budget, I'm intrigued by it. Thanks John for taking the time to come around the Hide again!

 

[J.Boyette]

Yes sir,

I feel the LVOA is a great system, I had a hand in its design and some other aspects.

I also see from end users a strong reaction to anything off the beaten path, be careful with this, it can stagnate companies from wanting to explore and try new interactions with older line of products. The AR-15 / LR-308 market is saturated with parts good, great and bad, what I always look at is how much of these parts are copies / repeats of the same old thing?

At War Sport Ind at the least, we took a unique road. This road might not be the best received by the masses, but who uses our products likes them and we have a great following of our products.

Keep an eye out for the company name, you will see it show up in more and more unique areas.

As always, if you have a question or want to talk about the product line post it up, or hit me up at [email protected] or 919-428-5265

Once the new website is up I will post in this topic with the link and all.

John

 

[LRRPF52]

Is the main objective of this design to mitigate recoil/muzzle rise in the 14.5" AR15 carbine? In all the videos, I'm seeing normal recoil impulse from a non-braked AR15, which is basically about an inch of sharp rear movement. If you look at a JP, it will move maybe 1/4" at the most. Am I missing something in the vids, because I'm seeing typical recoil of a non-braked gun. Here is a JP 16" for comparison.

16" JP Enterprises VTAC at 600 yards - YouTube

Going MLGS with the right port diameter, adding a brake, and playing with recoil systems will make any 14.5" carbine tame as tame can be.

The biggest challenge for reliability is in extreme cold, where the dwell time will bite you with a MLGS/14.5" barrel, shooting 55gr. At that point, it helps to have a can on the end.

 

[J.Boyette]

Sir,

I do not think a fair review of a rifle can be done by watching youtube, or even a quality check of such.

Do as you all wish comparing digital notes...

John

 

[Luke]

I can't speak for the War Sport guys but I would say no, the primary focus of the design was not solely recoil management, but it was an objective, and combined with all the other features make the rifle what it is.

 

[Lofty]

Sir,

I do not think a fair review of a rifle can be done by watching youtube, or even a quality check of such.

Do as you all wish comparing digital notes...

John

Fair enough....I agree, a video of one rifle or the other doesnt tell the whole story. So what is the difference in recoil between a well tuned JP for instance and a War Sports rifle? I would think its fair to say that recoil on a JP like the one in the video is so soft that it is for all intents irrelevant. How much softer and flat can it be?

Again, the Fonzi factor of the LVOA is way high...I get it. Maybe Im just jealous I cannot afford one. I still dont understand what the goal was and what was accomplished at such a high price tag that wasnt already being done in other rifles.

You gotta admit, Warsports is kinda cryptic....they dont talk much about the product. Ive been a fan of the facebook page for months....I truly dig the rifles.... and people complain on the page that they cannot find a website or any info on the company or the products other than the short little repetitive blurbs on their FB page. I saw one guy say "Its almost like they dont want to sell you their product".

 

[J.Boyette]

Lofty,

Simple really. The JP is a race gun and a very fine one. Ours is a carbine designed and used for combat.

We offer many aspects of a race gun in a combat ready package. The LVOA is a hand built highly tuned AR rifle. The attention to detail is very high and fit / finish is one of the best.

Price points. Same as with S&B over Vortex. Does the extra 10% give a advantage in quality????

As far as that one guy on face book? I have no idea how to respond to that. We have over 100k followers, he/she can always call us or send a email.

One more thing to add, these people can google the lvoa also. So as to finding info on the system it most likely people wanting to be spoon fed data.

 

[LRRPF52]

Here's the thing. I've been dealing with AR15's and Stoner designs since 1988 on a regular basis. I try to keep my finger on the pulse of what's latest and greatest, especially in terms of innovation with the operating system, gas system, and recoil mitigation.

If a gun is hand fit, there's a lot of time and attention-to-detail, and I get that. I do things on my own builds that I know no manufacturer is going to do, could care less about, and can't effectively repeat in an affordable manner.

A 14.5" MLGS fed 5.56 NATO doesn't even really climb or push to the rear when I shoot them, and that's just with a simple Phantom flash hider, standard buffer, etc.

What I look for when someone advertises a rifle or product at the higher end price points, is a list of what separates them from the competition. A lot of companies do this with BS features that are actually lower standards than a rack-grade M4 that's been beat to death over the years, while a few reputable ones provide supporting information, without compromising their proprietary features, if any.

For example, if I'm looking at any rifle over $1700 for the base rifle, I'm already under the premise that the receiver group will be precision billet, or offer a unique forged receiver set with unique features, or higher standards in dimensional uniformity, particularly in the receiver face squareness, and adherence to the TDP as a foundation for a reliable component set that will have longevity (7075 T6, Type III hard coat, Moly resin dry film lube in the raceway, ISO-9000 series QC checks.....etc.)

The heart of the rifle better include an above medium quality barrel and a bare minimum Mil-spec BCG, as in really Mil-spec, not "Mil-spec". That can be CHF/double thickness chrome lining, ferritic nitrocarburized CMV steel, quality/attention-to-detail chamber and reamer used, not some worn or over-sized reamer garbage throat that has been shoved in the breech by an underpaid "machinist" who can't pass a UA, resulting in an off-axis chamber to the bore (this seems to be the industry standard).

What I want in the BCG can fill paragraphs, which is what the TDP does, so I'll leave it at that.

For "just" $1700, I'm going to expect a top-notch trigger/FCG, with top-end small parts/LPK, not YFS or Chinese crate-sourced fasteners, pins, roll pins, springs, ragged disconnectors made from who knows what steel, porous triggers and hammers that lose surface hardness, bolt catches that break in extreme cold, etc.

The receiver extension better be drop-forged like Colt/Vltor, 7075 T6, one-piece, not extruded or welded like the low dollar units, then tumble-brushed to cover up the short cuts.

I could go on, but you get the point. Here's a BCM with nothing special with no visible recoil imparted to the shooter (me).

7rd CQM Drill BCM AR15 - YouTube

 

[Send__It]

I have 2 LVOA's One has several thousand rounds down range and If I had 3 malfunctions that would be a lot. If I remember correctly, 2 were ammo issues (bad primers). They are flat shooting reliable rifles from my experience. Ive run the gun in all weather conditions and terrains including sand. I'll be running it again for the next 3 days in a LEO Rifle Course, add another 1000rnds to it

Kac's are great rifles too. My dept. has several SR15 SBR's. The only thing I like better on the KAC is that its lighter but my LVAO's have billet lowers so they will be a be a tad heavier.