Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

[RWSGunsmithing]

Any reference to 10 or ten in your description infringes on Armalites trademark.

Trust me I know they sent a email and a certified letter to tell me so.

Here is some of that email.




<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> RW Snyder Gunsmithing


To whom it may concern;



I recently found a link to your website with information concerning your Ar10 rifle.



I am concerned that your Ar10 trademark infringes on ArmaLite’s registered AR-10 trademark. Since the rifle I see in your advertisement is clearly manufactured in caliber 7.62mm, I’m sure the intrusion is inadvertent.



ArmaLite has long taken the position that any “black rifle” designated with a 10 in it infringes, and we have successfully defended it. Spelling out the 10 or Ar10 doesn’t alter the basic fact of infringement, especially if the term is used in spoken form.



As a courtesy and to avoid unneeded attorney fees, I always communicate such concerns personally. I urge you, however, to contact your attorney concerning this matter to resolve it quickly and without embarrassment.



In addition, ArmaLite supplies components to OEM manufactures who wish to build their own rifles. We may find that there is room for cooperation.
</div></div>

 

[K_4c]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths



here's your chance to coin your own nomenclature for the ar-10 platform Rob....

 

[EricCartmann]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

That is so BS. I love Armalite Rifles but what next? Ford going to put a trademark on the term "truck"???

Does spelling out ten really infringes the trademark? I wonder what court would think so?

How about AR-Zehn??? Don't tell me Armalite trademarked the German Language too?

 

[-Nick-]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

I find it hard to believe they can trademark a number, maybe AR-10, but not just 10.

 

[BCP]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

Yeah they've been doing that for awhile.

 

[GhostFace]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

Way to go Armalite, protect your trademarks! I would bet mark would do the same thing if some started making a 7.62 AR with the reference of OBR in it. This should come as no surprise to anyone...

 

[K_4c]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GhostFace</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Way to go Armalite, protect your trademarks! I would bet mark would do the same thing if some started making a 7.62 AR with the reference of OBR in it. This should come as no surprise to anyone... </div></div>

way to bring Larue into this..... the OBR is a defined name and not a general blanket statement... I would assume (and support) any manufacture if the nomenclature of their product was infringed upon (i.e Gap-10, OBR, EMC, etc...) by taking legal actions.

 

[BCP]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: K_4c</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would assume (and support) any manufacture if their nomenclature of their product was infringed upon (i.e Gap-10, OBR, EMC, etc...) by taking legal actions. </div></div>

Same.

Reminds me of TOP GEAR when they were in China and the Chinese have all these knockoff automobiles and motorcycles. Like a fake Honda bike called a 'Hongda' lol...

AR-10, AR-15 are more general though. I hear people at gun stores all the time asking about 'AR-10s' 'Oh yeah we have one it's DPMS'. So I can understand the confusion/consternation over it.

 

[338Federal]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

Would they complain if you used AR-308, or AR-762? Id imagine not, so while easier and perhaps more recognizable to use AR-10; i can understand Armalites stance. While you may see yourself as a little fish with no impact on the branding, its more cumulative over the entire market, diluting the term, meaning genuine Armalite.

That said, i await my letter for my forum name.

 

[DamnYuppie]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

Back in the early 90's Intel started to change its chip names to things like "Pentium" instead of the number designation. This was done in part because they couldn't stop competitors from using the same # designations as they are not able to trademark them.

This seems to be in the same vein if you ask me.

 

[Exo]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

lets start calling them AR 9+1's so no one's feelings get hurt? Load of sh!t....

 

[Drumie]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

I guess this means George will not be able to call his rifle a GAP-10 anymore.

 

[bigearn1]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

Ar 9+1. Thats some funny sh!t right there!

 

[RWSGunsmithing]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Exo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">lets start calling them AR 9+1's so no one's feelings get hurt? Load of sh!t.... </div></div>

Put a smile on my face.

I'm currently got the web guy making changes to it. It's gonna be Ar-308.

I'm willing to bet GA Precision will be getting a notice as well.

 

[hlee]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

Armalite doesn't care if a "little fish" gunsmith infringes on their trademarks. What they care about are the "big fish" gun manufacturers infringing on their trademarks. However, in order to keep their trademark, they have to contest EVERY known infringement. This is a true case of "use it or lose it." If The Freedom Group could show that Armalite willingly allowed infringement of their trademark, then they could successfully argue that Amralite gave up their AR-10 trademark. Then Remington, Bushmaster, and DPMS could all use the AR-10 designation on their rifles. THAT is the "market confusion" they do not want. Little fish just get caught in the net...

This happens all of the time in all industries. And, as the letter states there is always room for cooperation (Licensing)...

I wonder if Armalite feels for AR the way they feel for 10. And, how jealously does DPMS guard LR-308?

 

[ropegun]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RWSGunsmithing</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any reference to 10 or ten in your description infringes on Armalites trademark.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> RW Snyder Gunsmithing

In addition, ArmaLite supplies components to OEM manufactures who wish to build their own rifles. <span style="font-weight: bold">We may find that there is room for cooperation</span>. </div></div>
</div></div>
<< translation >>

<span style="font-weight: bold">If you pay us enough money, we'll work with you.</span>

Lawyers -- gotta love 'em.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

Amazing. Never bought anything from them before and definitely won't now.

 

[hlee]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Amazing. Never bought anything from them before and definitely won't now. </div></div>

The University of Arkansas threatened to sue a small custom knife maker in Arkansas because the name of his company was Razorback Knives. I believe the maker was an alumnus of the university. The University of Texas threatened to sue an Italian restaurant in Austin Texas because the name was Bevos. Bevo means "drink" in Italian. Both companies complied and changed their names. The restaurant later went out of business.

The above reasoning will lead one to never buy anything from anyone. When you work hard to develop a trademark it only makes sense (and dollars) to defend it.

"It's not personal, Sonny. It's strictly business..."- Michael Corleone.

 

[BIGGLEE0351]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

Thats ridiculous.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

My money and I decide where it goes and why. You don't like it then tough shit.

 

[a1-equipment]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

Wow so instead of spending time and money building better guns or on marketing they try to bust presission gun makers balls. Guess no one at armalite thought Hey anyone buying rws gun is looking for a much better gun then we can make so why bother sending him a shity email.

Plus one for not ever buying one

 

[former naval person]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

Use "UBR 7.62".

 

[dawson08]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

sounds like they are spending more time surfing the net and less time working on guns

 

[GunKnowledge]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

That's a bluff, their lawyers could never get the number "10" trademarked.

"AR-10" in full, of course. Any 'black rifle' with a "10" in the name, bullshit.

 

[_Windrider_]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KSwift</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's a bluff, their lawyers could never get the number "10" trademarked.

"AR-10" in full, of course. Any 'black rifle' with a "10" in the name, bullshit.

</div></div>

Probably so, but can you afford to fight that in court as they litigate your business into Bankruptcy?

 

[Adam B]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: a1-equipment</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow so instead of spending time and money building better guns or on marketing they try to bust presission gun makers balls. Guess no one at armalite thought Hey anyone buying rws gun is looking for a much better gun then we can make so why bother sending him a shity email.

Plus one for not ever buying one

</div></div>

I couldn't agree more, I am a little biased towards Robert though

 

[lash]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

I know that sometimes it just seems nuts when this sort of letter arrives and I have seen many examples where it seems plain ridiculous, but I also understand why a company would want to properly defend their brand after spending years building that brand. Armalite didn't single him out of all small companies, it's just the nature of our free enterprise system. Sometimes the means seem small and petty, but the end result is not a bad thing.

OK, so that off my chest, here's an example where I thought a company was being ridiculous:
Near us about 20 years ago was a landscape wholesale company called "We Are Trees". They were sent a letter by Toys R Us to change their name or else. They tried to fight it and lost. Seemed wrong to me at the time (still does), but it is how our system works. For better or for worse.

 

[Jhnmdahl]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hlee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Armalite doesn't care if a "little fish" gunsmith infringes on their trademarks. What they care about are the "big fish" gun manufacturers infringing on their trademarks. However, in order to keep their trademark, they have to contest EVERY known infringement. This is a true case of "use it or lose it." If The Freedom Group could show that Armalite willingly allowed infringement of their trademark, then they could successfully argue that Amralite gave up their AR-10 trademark. Then Remington, Bushmaster, and DPMS could all use the AR-10 designation on their rifles. THAT is the "market confusion" they do not want. Little fish just get caught in the net...

This happens all of the time in all industries. And, as the letter states there is always room for cooperation (Licensing)...</div></div>

This is exactly right, and why common terms associated with a type of product such as Band-Aid, Kleenex, and the like still can't be used by competitors.

Armalite came up with the AR-10 and AR-15 names and rifles, why shouldn't they have the right to their own trademarks? I can only imagine the cries there would be on here if I started making my own versions of another manufacturer's rifles and called them Galdius, Hospitaller, and Crusader...

 

[Rob01]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

So they going after everyone who use "AR" next? Plenty of letters to be sent then. Everyone and their brother uses AR. Get that printer warmed up

I can see if the "AR-10" designator is used but just the number 10? That's rediculous and that's where I step up and ore with my dollar against the BS.

 

[blksno]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: K_4c</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Way to go Armalite.... that's how you bring drama into the gun industry.
</div></div>

You gotta be kidding me? You think it's Armalite that brought the drama? How bout the term "standing on the shoulders of giants"
All these platforms started from one creation, that carried one name. I guess letting EVERYONE use the same basic design wasn't enough, you're suppose to let them rip half your name off too?

What happened to creativity?

AR-10
SR-25
LR308

Call it something unique, be creative...if it's a superior product...the name will stick and you'll be recognized for it FOREVER. Try and use some nicknack nock off name and it gets washed away in crowd anyway.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hlee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wonder if Armalite feels for AR the way they feel for 10. And, how jealously does DPMS guard LR-308? </div></div>
I think they WOULD if they hadn't let Colt get a hold of the name "AR-15"
And you bet your sweet ass that DPMS is guarding LR-308 just as tightly.

ANYTHING that Armalite could suggest causes confusion in the industry, is damaging to their business. If you design a new beach chair called the AR-10, they aren't going to give a shit, because no one is going to be buying a beach chair, and expect a black rifle to show up in the mail. No confusion.

As someone said...It's just business. Get over it.

 

[blksno]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So they going after everyone who use "AR" next? Plenty of letters to be sent then. Everyone and their brother uses AR. Get that printer warmed up

I can see if the "AR-10" designator is used but just the number 10? That's rediculous and that's where I step up and ore with my dollar against the BS. </div></div>
I'm pretty sure they only reason the use of "AR" is even allowed is because Colt now owns the AR-15 designation.
If it was still in the hands of ARmalite, anything related to AR, 10 or 15 would be under lock and key.

 

[DavidAR10]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

OP,

You chose the term Ar10. Mark Westrom went and paid money for everything attached to the ARMALITE & AR-10 names and trademarks. Every-da-da-damn-thang.

They are the reason so many other tag along 308 ARs are out today. Hell, there was only KAC at the time.

The newly resurrected ARMALITE put out their first AR-10 rifles and carbines back in 1986. When did the next two companies come out with theirs... and what were/are their names?

So, they don't have something to defend by United States Patent Law? Go ask your attorney about that and post a synopsis here.

I was going to type:
ARMALITE was being nice. They could have handed you your dick and told you to take it home... and kept your wallet.

But, I won't.

EDIT: damn shame so many in this thread don't understand what it takes to defend something that you legally own in the market place.

 

[Heronion]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

Kleenex is a brand of facial tissues. AR-10 is a brand of .308-based rifle. Isn't it enough that everyone on the planet has copied Armalite's design? Now they don't even get to protect their original name? Sweet Jesus. If you make a copy of an AR-10 at least have SOME creative ability and call it something else. Is it really that difficult?

 

[vmpglenn]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

Advertising Age magazine usually has a full-page ad from the guys that make the little pine-tree type car air fresheners that hang off the rearview mirror... asking designers NOT to use the image of the little cardboard green pine tree without permission. Trademarks/trade dress/etc is serious business.

 

[okiefired]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

You guys crack me up, you act like this is something new. Armalite has been trying to defend the "AR10" designation for at least over 25 years. I've seen it posted on this very forum alone I dont know how many times for years that AR10's are built by Armalite and that everything else should be called something else. Mark W. bought Armalite and "AR10", we all could have taken the intiative and done the same but we didn't so go somewhere else and cry about it. There's some drama being caused alright but its damn sure not Armalite doing it, they're just protecting whats thiers. I wonder what would happen if Toyota started calling one of thier cars a Z28?

okie

 

[sinister]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

Industry is full of products whose original owner didn't enforce their trademark.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is exactly right, and why common terms associated with a type of product such as Band-Aid, Kleenex, and the like still can't be used by competitors.</div></div>

Scotch tape. Velcro. Xerox. Ditto. Hoover. There are tons more.

 

[Jhnmdahl]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Industry is full of products whose original owner didn't enforce their trademark.

Scotch tape. Velcro. Xerox. Ditto. Hoover. There are tons more. </div></div>

Scotch tape, Velcro, and Xerox are more examples of owners that have protected their trademark, and therefore still have the right to exclude others from using it in the same line of business.

Many other trademarks like "aspirin," "thermos," and "zipper" were lost due to non-enforcement, and are now available for all to use.

I wouldn't want to be the Armalite attorney trying to argue that "10" alone is somehow protected, but with AR being generically used by multiple companies, AR-308 seems a nice alternative for a custom maker.

 

[K_4c]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: c_bass16</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: K_4c</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Way to go Armalite.... that's how you bring drama into the gun industry.
</div></div>

You gotta be kidding me? You think it's Armalite that brought the drama? How bout the term "standing on the shoulders of giants"
All these platforms started from one creation, that carried one name. I guess letting EVERYONE use the same basic design wasn't enough, you're suppose to let them rip half your name off too?

What happened to creativity?

AR-10
SR-25
LR308

Call it something unique, be creative...if it's a superior product...the name will stick and you'll be recognized for it FOREVER. Try and use some nicknack nock off name and it gets washed away in crowd anyway. </div></div>

Better address all those 1911's, bolt action, range finders, spotting scopes, etc....

 

[346ci]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

Funny thread, brings back memories. My first AR was a Armalite AR15, shot my first buck with that mofo also, standard A2 sights. I later bought a nice NM 20" Armalite upper to go along with it. Both were stolen and replaced with customs as I later determined Armalite was just a name like Colt.

It's crazy to claim "AR10" but if you got the money, I'm sure there is a lawyer to back ya up. Plenty of other ways to name your product.

 

[msflyer]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

Call it the "AR-BTA" (Better Than ArmaLite)

 

[DavidAR10]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

Sure can tell who/whom took fucking Woodshop instead of Business Class.

Gun lovers with IQs three (3) da-da-damn points above plant life.

Offended? God da-da-damn birdhouse aficionado.

I'm outta here. Too many rocks.

When ignorance keeps being defended... stupidity is the result.

 

[blksno]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: K_4c</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Better address all those 1911's, bolt action, range finders, spotting scopes, etc.... </div></div>

Please explain?
It's completely different if a company does NOT trademark their model or line of products, which Armalite HAS.
Is the "1911" model a trademarked name, registered to a specific company?? No, but the 700, the 70, the 11-87, the 1100 and the 110 are all trademarked model numbers that are well known flag ship models by their respective companies.
As for LRFs or spotting scopes...if you're referring to numbers "1600" or "800" or like "20-60"...that's not a trademarked model name or number....that's a advertised feature.

If Vectronix TRADEMARKED "21" as their model...and Leupold comes out with a VX-21...that would be an infringement of trademark.
I don't see what is so hard to grasp here.

 

[slothlacrosse]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DavidAR10</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sure can tell who/whom took fucking Woodshop instead of Business Class.

Gun lovers with IQs three (3) da-da-damn points above plant life.

Offended? God da-da-damn birdhouse aficionado.

I'm outta here. Too many rocks.

When ignorance keeps being defended... stupidity is the result.</div></div>

What the fu-fu-fu-fuck are you blabbering about?

I never took woodshop and have a BSBA, and I have no clue what the hell you just said!

 

[DavidAR10]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slothlacrosse</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DavidAR10</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sure can tell who/whom took fucking Woodshop instead of Business Class.

Gun lovers with IQs three (3) da-da-damn points above plant life.

Offended? God da-da-damn birdhouse aficionado.

I'm outta here. Too many rocks.

When ignorance keeps being defended... stupidity is the result.</div></div>

What the fu-fu-fu-fuck are you blabbering about?

I never took woodshop and have a BSBA, and I have no clue what the hell you just said! </div></div>

No extra points for you.

Had to come back for an edjumakatid rock.

 

[K_4c]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: c_bass16</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: K_4c</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Better address all those 1911's, bolt action, range finders, spotting scopes, etc.... </div></div>

Please explain?
It's completely different if a company does NOT trademark their model or line of products, which Armalite HAS.
Is the "1911" model a trademarked name, registered to a specific company?? No, but the 700, the 70, the 11-87, the 1100 and the 110 are all trademarked model numbers that are well known flag ship models by their respective companies.
As for LRFs or spotting scopes...if you're referring to numbers "1600" or "800" or like "20-60"...that's not a trademarked model name or number....that's a advertised feature.

If Vectronix TRADEMARKED "21" as their model...and Leupold comes out with a VX-21...that would be an infringement of trademark.
I don't see what is so hard to grasp here. </div></div>

Point taken bud...

I guess many (including myself) identify the "heavy" black rifle as an AR-10 and not some specific nomenclature (i.e OBR, EMC, SR25, etc). Apparently, your gun manufacture fu juice is strong (and mine is lacking). So I'll tip my hat to you sir and carry on....

 

[346ci]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DavidAR10</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sure can tell who/whom took fucking Woodshop instead of Business Class.

Gun lovers with IQs three (3) da-da-damn points above plant life.

Offended? God da-da-damn birdhouse aficionado.

I'm outta here. Too many rocks.

When ignorance keeps being defended... stupidity is the result. </div></div>

Better change that screen name before you get some hate mail!

 

[65nut]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

are ya fuckin kidding me?

 

[blksno]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

Don't get me wrong...I would consider it a matter of pride that most, including myself at one time...considered all the "heavy" black rifles the AR-10. Armalite can be proud that they have joined the likes of Band-Aid, Kleenex and Coke (although I laugh when I hear people order a Mt Dew flavored Coke)
Calling it that will only get you criticized...starting a company and NAMING it that is going to get you in trouble.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, but there are limits.

 

[Randoman5]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

I'm lawyer (not too much hate please), not a trademark lawyer but I have handled some trademark and fair competition litigation. The name AR-10 and any derivation of it including the 10 are definitely protectable trademarks.

It seems like kind of a shitty thing to do, as it's sort of pointless but they're well within their legal rights.

I wonder how much they'd be looking for in royalties to use the name.

It sucks but what's in a name? Would a GAP 10 by another name shoot as sweet?

It would.

 

[Randoman5]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

Any patent rights Armalite had expired long ago.

These would be trademark rights.

I'm not so sure that the AR portion of the trademark can't be defeated. If AR stands on for assault rifle then it is a descriptive term not eligible for trademark protection.

I'm not sure that argument would work but It'd be worth trying.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DavidAR10</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OP,

You chose the term Ar10. Mark Westrom went and paid money for everything attached to the ARMALITE & AR-10 names and trademarks. Every-da-da-damn-thang.

They are the reason so many other tag along 308 ARs are out today. Hell, there was only KAC at the time.

The newly resurrected ARMALITE put out their first AR-10 rifles and carbines back in 1986. When did the next two companies come out with theirs... and what were/are their names?

So, they don't have something to defend by United States Patent Law? Go ask your attorney about that and post a synopsis here.

I was going to type:
ARMALITE was being nice. They could have handed you your dick and told you to take it home... and kept your wallet.

But, I won't.

EDIT: damn shame so many in this thread don't understand what it takes to defend something that you legally own in the market place.

</div></div>