Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

[Cmonroe]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

Ok, if you dig a little deeper Armalite sold all rights to the AR-10 to Colt in 1959. Armalite protected only the trademark of Armalite no rights to the name AR-10 when they came back in 1994 to my knowledge. And currently as best as I can tell only has AR-10A and AR-10B trademarked. It would seem AR-10 belongs legally to Colt.

Westom purchased the trademark "Armalite" in 1994 from Ugarte and as best as I can tell did not purchase from Colt AR-10 and specifically called the new project both M-10 and AR-10A to show that it was "Different from the original AR-10". The reborn company shipped it's first rifles in 1996 with AR-10A stamps to show it was not an AR-10. Hope this helps.

 

[Graham]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

The way I read the letter they are saying that calling your rifle an "Ar10", or calling a rifle an "AR10" or "AR-Ten" would violate Armalite's "AR-10" trademark.

I'm not sure how that would affect the GAP-10, except that they claim any 'black rifle' with a '10' in the designator violates the same trademark.

 

[Randoman5]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4007:bqqrhh.2.2

Here is a link to the federal trademark office's website where you find that Armalite registered the federally protected trademark for AR-10 in...

2002.

Trademarks don't last forever. You have to use them. Once you have stopped using them they are abandoned. I don't know if Armalite has been in constant existence since they came out with the AR-10 (which I believe was in the late 50s or early 60s, but unless they continued marketing the product since that time they couldn't keep the trademark.

In any case the company currently known as Armalite has it.

 

[Graham]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

What about a Mega Arms MATEN?

Trademark infrigement? Because it's not 'fair use'.

 

[blksno]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Randoman5</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'm not so sure that the AR portion of the trademark can't be defeated. If AR stands on for assault rifle then it is a descriptive term not eligible for trademark protection.</div></div>

It doesn't stand for Assault Rifle. It stands for "Armalite Rifle". But alas, I digress...it's theirs, it's within their rights, I'm glad they are protecting it and I WILL be a proud supporter of of their fine products.

 

[Randoman5]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

To win a trademark infringement suit you must show actual or potential reasonable consumers are misled by the name.

In other words you must show that consumers are likely to associate your product with the actual trademark holder or are reasonably misled into thinking your product is associated with their product or company.

Just my opinion but I don't think the average member here is going to be misled, but the people here seem to be particularly knowledgable. It's really sort of a tough thing to nail down.

Someone is bound to make Armalite put their money where their mouth is on this and I guess we'll see what you can and can't use in your semi-automatic rifle name then.

 

[blksno]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Randoman5</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4007:bqqrhh.2.2

Here is a link to the federal trademark office's website where you find that Armalite registered the federally protected trademark for AR-10 in...

2002.

Trademarks don't last forever. You have to use them. Once you have stopped using them they are abandoned. I don't know if Armalite has been in constant existence since they came out with the AR-10 (which I believe was in the late 50s or early 60s, but unless they continued marketing the product since that time they couldn't keep the trademark.

In any case the company currently known as Armalite has it. </div></div>
Just because they may or may not have had it trademarked since its inception...doesn't mean they "loose it". Especially if, no one was building anything to challenge the name until relatively recently.
Even now, if they let it expire, the only way to loose it is if someone else claims it after it lapses. Not likely Armalite will let that happen.

 

[Randoman5]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

No, now it's a federally registered trademark. As long as they continue to renew and continue to use the mark in commerce they can hold it exclusively until the end of time.

I was just pontificating about trademark law in general.


You don't need to register a trademark to protect it, but it's definitely a good idea.

 

[Cmonroe]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So they going after everyone who use "AR" next? Plenty of letters to be sent then. Everyone and their brother uses AR. Get that printer warmed up

I can see if the "AR-10" designator is used but just the number 10? That's rediculous and that's where I step up and ore with my dollar against the BS. </div></div>

You know I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure Argon was the first AR and Arkansas was a state before Armalite was a company. Might have a slight issue with AR by its self. But, as some of the previous posters have proven some "lawyers" are about the worst thing that have ever happened to society.

 

[Randoman5]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cmonroe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So they going after everyone who use "AR" next? Plenty of letters to be sent then. Everyone and their brother uses AR. Get that printer warmed up

I can see if the "AR-10" designator is used but just the number 10? That's rediculous and that's where I step up and ore with my dollar against the BS. </div></div>

You know I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure Argon was the first AR and Arkansas was a state before Armalite was a company. Might have a slight issue with AR by its self. But, as some of the previous posters have proven some "lawyers" are about the worst thing that have ever happened to society. </div></div>

Haha. Nobody likes us until someone tries to screw them over... then they still don't like us but we're better tolerated.

As far as I'm concerned AR and AR-10 are already a generic terms, meaning that it's no longer principally associated with the original maker but with all similar products in the market place.

Any large scale AR is known as an AR-10 or AR-10 clone and most of them are sold by companies other than Armalite.

My least favorite version of this trademark nonesense was when Ford couldn't even call their own car the GT40 because it had sold the name to a company making aftermarket parts for them. It ended up being the Ford GT.

 

[The King]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

I wonder if the FA-11 would be a better name. 11, because IT GOES TO 11 MAN....and FA an unpleasant acronym that shall not be spoken because it infringes no doubt.

 

[Cmonroe]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DavidAR10</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sure can tell who/whom took fucking Woodshop instead of Business Class.

Gun lovers with IQs three (3) da-da-damn points above plant life.

Offended? God da-da-damn birdhouse aficionado.

I'm outta here. Too many rocks.

When ignorance keeps being defended... stupidity is the result. </div></div>

Hey business boy, when did the word same have an "L" added to it? You might wish/want to correct your mistake/mistakes as you've alluded to your superior intellect. Furthermore, you may also wish to use punctuation's when completing said sentence! If you continue to address people in the same manor you chose in your previous two post, I can't wait to see how pathetic you feel when your sued. Above you said "too many rocks", well "too many rocks" was copy written in 2012, I know this may sound stupid to you, but you are now in violation of said copy write.
Please see your original mistake/mistakes below.

Hobbies: Putting rounds through the samel hole, hunting and trout fishing

 

[okiefired]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

U.S. trademark registration # 26144253 held by Armalite on the name of "AR-10"....according to Wiki....hope this helps.

okie

 

[sr15match]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

Trademarks or intellectual property or what ever, it all belongs to someone and takes very little to figure it all out. Armalite isn't alone in this by any stretch of the means.

Example, look at UGSW changing its name to BOP. Lockheed strong armed Mike becuse of the use of "skunkworks" in the name........

 

[hlee]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

Kleenex (Facial Tissue), Coke (Soft drink), Gator-ade (sports drink), Xerox (photocopy), Band-Aid (Adhesive Bandage), Velcro (fabric hook and loop fastener), Astro-turf (artificial sport turf), Frisbee (toy flying disc- originally a pie tin), Q-tip (cotton swab), Scotch Tape (transparent adhesive tape), AR-10 (7.62x51mm caliber semi automatic "black" rifle).

The above are all examples of trademarks that have transcended their particular industries to become stand-ins for the actual descriptions of their products. However, only the Kleenex company has the right to sell facial tissue branded as Kleenex. If you order "a coke" in the south you are likely to be asked "what kind?" There is only one Xerox. Their may have been earlier adhesive bandages, but only Johnson & Johnson sells Band-Aids. Every coach wants a Gatorade bath after a game, but I bet a large percentage of them actually take Powerade baths. 3M makes scotch tape; everything else is merely transparent and adhesive. AstroTurf was first used in the AstroDome. Both are obsolete, however, AstroTurf (Owned by American Sports Products Group Inc.) has become synonymous with artificial sport turf.

To everyone who says "Well, I'll never buy x from y because of this frivolous legal nonsense..." Good for you. If you actually vote with your dollars you will very soon be sitting on a large pile of cash- because you no longer have anything your conscience will allow you to buy. Congratulations on your new found fortune.

And, for anyone who asks (and obviously is not up on the nomenclature) my DPMS LR-308 is "an AR-15 pattern rifle" that shoots a 308 win cartridge. Everyone knows what an AR-15 is.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hlee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

To everyone who says "Well, I'll never buy x from y because of this frivolous legal nonsense..." Good for you. If you actually vote with your dollars you will very soon be sitting on a large pile of cash- because you no longer have anything your conscience will allow you to buy. Congratulations on your new found fortune.

</div></div>

Unfortunately that's not true as there are plenty of other good companies to buy products from. My visa bill proves that.

 

[-Nick-]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The way I read the letter they are saying that calling your rifle an "Ar10", or calling a rifle an "AR10" or "AR-Ten" would violate Armalite's "AR-10" trademark.

I'm not sure how that would affect the GAP-10, except that they claim any 'black rifle' with a '10' in the designator violates the same trademark. </div></div>

That's why I asked earlier how they can trademark just the number 10. Is it just me or does that seem like a load of bullshit put into the letter to try and deter anyone from using even 10 in the description?

 

[blksno]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The way I read the letter they are saying that calling your rifle an "Ar10", or calling a rifle an "AR10" or "AR-Ten" would violate Armalite's "AR-10" trademark.

I'm not sure how that would affect the GAP-10, except that they claim any 'black rifle' with a '10' in the designator violates the same trademark. </div></div>

That's why I asked earlier how they can trademark just the number 10. Is it just me or does that seem like a load of bullshit put into the letter to try and deter anyone from using even 10 in the description? </div></div>

Why is that bull shit? Remington did it with 1100, 870 and 11-87. Try calling your new black rifle creation an AR-1100 and see what happens.

 

[BigBlue&Goldie]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

My family's business was established long before an unnamed public company, but my Grandfather only registered the name in the 3 states we do business in. Needless to say, unnamed company sent us a lawyer letter saying we needed to change our names. Instead of wasting all of our money paying lawyers we just changed our name (we needed to do some rebranding anyway). Out of nowhere we received a check a couple of months later from the company for $3,400 for not fighting them.

Bottom line is they had us by the balls and we weren't going to spend the money to fight it. Who knows why they felt compelled to give us the payment? We took it and applied it towards new signage and swag. In the end, it worked out well for both of us. We still receive goods from their suppliers because of our old name, which we appreciate!

 

[Layton]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Ford going to put a trademark on the term "truck"???
</div></div>

That's analogous to trying to trademark "rifle". Ford didn't invent or trademark the term "truck". You can't compare the 2. Not even close.

edt; For those of you in IT that remember, Sun tried to do this with 'Java'. This stuff is nothing new in any industry. Apparently some here have never been exposed to it before.

L

 

[Jack17397]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

theres alot of ar-15 companys out there, i see alot of law suits coming down lol.

 

[HighGroundMan]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

Just because its law or legal doesn't mean its right. I think we can all come up with our own examples from experience or observation. Let the parties go to court and get it figured out. Keep the wild comments coming. I'm still undecided.

 

[hlee]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

Armalite and Rock River Arms did go to court to decide what is right. Well, Rock River settled out of court in 2007- and changed their branding...

 

[Layton]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HighGroundMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just because its law or legal doesn't mean its right.</div></div>

Honest question here. What makes it wrong?

 

[GhostFace]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

Most of the guys that said they won't buy an Armalite now probably never intended to in the first place. Just because people call tissue, Kleenex, tape, Scotch or .308 ARs, AR-10s doesn't make it right. If any of you we're at Arfcom about 8 years ago people came to the Armalite section bitching about their AR-10s not working, come to find out the vast majority were not even Armalites! That is reason alone to protect your tradmark. Like said if some one started using The letters OBR along with something else I am damn sure Mark would be all over them and rightfully so. I am also sure that some that are bitching about Armalites decision would be cheering Mark along.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

I own an Armalite AR-10. I am currently building a Mega MATEN for our video series.

I get questions about these rifles constantly. Nothing is more frustrating that listening to a guy talk about the problems he is having with his AR10 for an hour. Only at the end to find out he actually has a DPMS LR-308.

Just because guys want to call every 308 AR an "AR10" doesn't make it right. I have to listen to guys call AR15's and semi-auto AK's "assault rifles" all the time. They are wrong too.

This is a company defending its legally owned trademark. If you don't think it's correct, then hire a lawyer and head to court.

Now to the "-10" part. I believe that is a bluff. I don't think companies like GA Precision have any danger of being successfully sued over the use of a name like "GAP-10". However I do seem to remember that Fulton Armory called their rifle a "FAR-10" originally and then changed it to "FAR-308".

 

[-Nick-]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: c_bass16</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why is that bull shit? Remington did it with 1100, 870 and 11-87. Try calling your new black rifle creation an AR-1100 and see what happens. </div></div>

Here's an interesting discussion on trademarking a number. Could Armalite do it, yup. Do I think it's bullshit still... yup. The way the letter is written and with no specific citation of any trademark registration for the number "10" creates serious doubt. The only registration I can find for their rifle is specifically Registration #2667871 which is only for "AR-10".

Add: I just went through all 1,449 Live trademarks that have "10" in them and the only one I could find was "AR-10". I found plenty of other companies for various products and services that had trademarked "10" or even "Ten" but Armalite as far as I can tell isn't one of them.

 

[sinister]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

You think WD-40 would have a stand if they challenged someone trying to call their product the same thing?

727, 737, 747? DC-3?

 

[fd-defense]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

Armalite's problem is that "AR-10" has become "descriptive" across the industry of a generic rifle platform, just as "AR-15" has. I.E. when the average gun-buyer walks in to a gun shop, he asks the guy behind the counter if they have any AR-10's... the salesman says "Yes, we have some POF's, DPMS's, Larue's, GAP's, etc...", case essentially closed, no IP infringement.

However, having the trademark is enough to get them in a courtroom, and start wasting away everyone's money in attorneys fees.

They are not correct in their ability to get a <span style="text-decoration: underline">properly defended</span> action enforced by a Federal IP Court. If they are proven to know that the enforcement remedy cannot reasonably be available then the defendant is entitled to pursue a frivolous action claim or malicious prosecution. At the end of the day I think it would be a draw, both sides losing their claims, and attorneys winning.

 

[-Nick-]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You think WD-40 would have a stand if they challenged someone trying to call their product the same thing?

727, 737, 747? DC-3? </div></div>

I think there's some misunderstanding on what I'm disagreeing with. I agree 100% with the "AR-10" trademarking and they by all rights should protect it. It's the question of whether or not they've trademarked the number "10/Ten" that I take issue with and disagree in it's appropriateness.

 

[hlee]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fd-defense</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Armalite's problem is that "AR-10" has become "descriptive" across the industry of a generic rifle platform, just as "AR-15" has.</span> I.E. when the average gun-buyer walks in to a gun shop, he asks the guy behind the counter if they have any AR-10's... the salesman says "Yes, we have some POF's, DPMS's, Larue's, GAP's, etc...", case essentially closed, no IP infringement.

However, having the trademark is enough to get them in a courtroom, and start wasting away everyone's money in attorneys fees.

They are not correct in their ability to get a <span style="text-decoration: underline">properly defended</span> action enforced by a Federal IP Court. If they are proven to know that the enforcement remedy cannot reasonably be available then the defendant is entitled to pursue a frivolous action claim or malicious prosecution. At the end of the day I think it would be a draw, both sides losing their claims, and attorneys winning. </div></div>
Bolded for emphasis.

This does not seem to be a problem for Kleenex, Johnson & Johnson (Band-Aid), or Xerox. Why would it be a problem for Armalite?

 

[-Nick-]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hlee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This does not seem to be a problem for Kleenex, Johnson & Johnson (Band-Aid), or Xerox. Why would it be a problem for Armalite? </div></div>

Tissue paper, bandages, and copy machine paper aren't trademarked so what's your point? The question isn't whether or not the company name is being used commonly to describe a product but the actual product itself. Your point would only be relevant if people went in and asked for an Armalite to describe a 308 model semi-auto.

 

[K_4c]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: c_bass16</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't get me wrong...I would consider it a matter of pride that most, including myself at one time...considered all the "heavy" black rifles the AR-10. Armalite can be proud that they have joined the likes of Band-Aid, Kleenex and Coke (although I laugh when I hear people order a Mt Dew flavored Coke)
Calling it that will only get you criticized...starting a company and NAMING it that is going to get you in trouble.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, but there are limits. </div></div>

I guess I formed my opinion from my time in service (i.e M4, M16, M249, M240, M24,M107, etc...). All these nomenclatures are descriptive of the type of rifle/weapon system. Like reading a M4 PMCS Manuel ( I've bought brand new rifles with the same format/verbiage.... and these were not colt's).

learn something new everyday.

 

[hlee]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hlee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This does not seem to be a problem for Kleenex, Johnson & Johnson (Band-Aid), or Xerox. Why would it be a problem for Armalite? </div></div>

Tissue paper, bandages, and copy machine paper aren't trademarked so what's your point? The question isn't whether or not the company name is being used commonly to describe a product but the actual product itself. Your point would only be relevant if people went in and asked for an Armalite to describe a 308 model semi-auto. </div></div>

You are wrong. AR-10 is a registered trademark. Kleenex is a registered trademark. Q-tip is a registered trademark. Band-Aid is a registered trademark. They all enjoy the same legal protection. Only the legal owner of a trademark can mark their products with the trademark.

Maybe I am the only one that calls facial tissue Kleenex...

I could be the only one that calls all cotton swabs Q-tips...

It is possible that I missed the memo that all photocopiers are not Xerox machines...

And, when either of my sons has a scrape, they ask me for a Band-Aid, not an adhesive bandage...

Maybe, just maybe, it is just us. I highly doubt it...

From Wikipedia..."The registered trademark symbol, designated by ® (the circled capital letter "R"), is a symbol used to provide notice that the preceding mark is a trademark or service mark that has been registered with a national trademark office.[1] In some countries it is against the law to use the registered trademark symbol for a mark that is not officially registered in any country.[1]

Trademarks not officially registered are instead marked with the trademark symbol ™, while unregistered service marks are marked with the service mark symbol &#8480;. The proper manner to display these symbols is immediately following the mark, and is commonly in superscript style but is not legally required."

I wend into my bathroom and took a couple pictures of items I found there. They are below...

See the little Circle R next to the name? That means registered trademark. Yes, it is the company name in one instance, but it is also a trademark. What were we discussing? Oh yes, Armalite's AR-10 registered trademark.

Kleenex is synonymous with facial tissue.
Q-tip is synonymous with cotton swab.
Xerox is synonymous with photocopiers.
AR-10 is synonymous with 308 caliber semi-auto black rifles.

Kleenex is a registered trademark owned by the Kleenex Company.

Q-tip is a registered trademark owned by the Unilever company.

Xerox is a registered trademark owned by the Xerox Corporation.

AR-10 is a registered trademark owned by Armalite.

Am I the only one who sees the parallelism?

Interestingly, I found this at the bottom of the Q-tips website...

"Q-TIPS® is a registered trademark of Unilever and is NOT a name for just any cotton swabs. The Q-TIPS® trademark can only be used to refer to the specific cotton swab products manufactured and sold by Unilever and should not be used to refer to cotton swab products of other companies or to cotton swabs generally. Appropriate generic terminology for cotton swabs includes the terms "cotton", "stick(s)" and "swab(s)". Misuse of the Q-TIPS® trademark constitutes an infringement of Unilever's exclusive rights in the mark."

Maybe I am not the only one who was in the dark...

 

[ronzrx]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

Armalite is lame would never own one

 

[fd-defense]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

Just because it is a registered trademark does not mean it is automatically entitled protection or enforcement rights... There are dozens of reasons why this is so. This fact rarely dissuades companies from portraying that their trademark as in-effect and enforceable.

 

[-Nick-]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hlee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are wrong. AR-10 is a registered trademark. Kleenex is a registered trademark. Q-tip is a registered trademark. Band-Aid is a registered trademark. They all enjoy the same legal protection. Only the legal owner of a trademark can mark their products with the trademark.

Maybe I am the only one that calls facial tissue Kleenex...

I could be the only one that calls all cotton swabs Q-tips...

It is possible that I missed the memo that all photocopiers are not Xerox machines...

And, when either of my sons has a scrape, they ask me for a Band-Aid, not an adhesive bandage...

Maybe, just maybe, it is just us. I highly doubt it...

From Wikipedia..."The registered trademark symbol, designated by ® (the circled capital letter "R"), is a symbol used to provide notice that the preceding mark is a trademark or service mark that has been registered with a national trademark office.[1] In some countries it is against the law to use the registered trademark symbol for a mark that is not officially registered in any country.[1]

Trademarks not officially registered are instead marked with the trademark symbol ™, while unregistered service marks are marked with the service mark symbol &#8480;. The proper manner to display these symbols is immediately following the mark, and is commonly in superscript style but is not legally required."

I wend into my bathroom and took a couple pictures of items I found there. They are below...

See the little Circle R next to the name? That means registered trademark. Yes, it is the company name in one instance, but it is also a trademark. What were we discussing? Oh yes, Armalite's AR-10 registered trademark.

Kleenex is synonymous with facial tissue.
Q-tip is synonymous with cotton swab.
Xerox is synonymous with photocopiers.
AR-10 is synonymous with 308 caliber semi-auto black rifles.

Kleenex is a registered trademark owned by the Kleenex Company.

Q-tip is a registered trademark owned by the Unilever company.

Xerox is a registered trademark owned by the Xerox Corporation.

AR-10 is a registered trademark owned by Armalite.

Am I the only one who sees the parallelism?

Interestingly, I found this at the bottom of the Q-tips website...

"Q-TIPS® is a registered trademark of Unilever and is NOT a name for just any cotton swabs. The Q-TIPS® trademark can only be used to refer to the specific cotton swab products manufactured and sold by Unilever and should not be used to refer to cotton swab products of other companies or to cotton swabs generally. Appropriate generic terminology for cotton swabs includes the terms "cotton", "stick(s)" and "swab(s)". Misuse of the Q-TIPS® trademark constitutes an infringement of Unilever's exclusive rights in the mark."

Maybe I am not the only one who was in the dark...

</div></div>

I'm trying to focus and read while face-palming since you clearly didn't actually comprehend what was said or read any of the previous posts. So... go back and actually read what was stated instead of posting photos of the fucking obvious in an effort to prove what is already known and not argued. We're discussing the use of just the number "10", not "AR10. "AR-10®" (Look I can post the symbol as well) or "Armalite®" or even "Armalite Rifle - 10®". And according to the US Patents & Trademark Office Armalite® does NOT have the number "10" or "Ten" trademarked. Now unless you can show me a photo with the ® next to "tissue", "copier", or "bandage" which you'll notice on your photo's is on the package itself then your point is again mute since no one is questioning the use of "Armelite®".

 

[blksno]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jay foxtrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">theres alot of ar-15 companys out there, i see alot of law suits coming down lol. </div></div>

No there aren't. There is only one "AR-15".
The rest are just semi auto rifles that are on the same AR platform.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ronzrx</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Armalite is lame would never own one </div></div>

You are of course entitled to spend your money where you wish.

However I do believe you are now in the running for the most ignorant first post ever.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jhnmdahl</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hlee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Armalite doesn't care if a "little fish" gunsmith infringes on their trademarks. What they care about are the "big fish" gun manufacturers infringing on their trademarks. However, in order to keep their trademark, they have to contest EVERY known infringement. This is a true case of "use it or lose it." If The Freedom Group could show that Armalite willingly allowed infringement of their trademark, then they could successfully argue that Amralite gave up their AR-10 trademark. Then Remington, Bushmaster, and DPMS could all use the AR-10 designation on their rifles. THAT is the "market confusion" they do not want. Little fish just get caught in the net...

This happens all of the time in all industries. And, as the letter states there is always room for cooperation (Licensing)...</div></div>

This is exactly right, and why common terms associated with a type of product such as Band-Aid, Kleenex, and the like still can't be used by competitors.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Armalite came up with the AR-10 and AR-15 names and rifles</span>, why shouldn't they have the right to their own trademarks? I can only imagine the cries there would be on here if I started making my own versions of another manufacturer's rifles and called them Galdius, Hospitaller, and Crusader...</div></div>

Because Armalite, the original company that these
'terms' were generated under, never came up with those designators. It was the department of defense.

Also, the name Armalite was used as the original company, a division of Fairchild Aircraft Co. was not sold to the Armalite Company of today. It was spun off and went defunct. They picked the name up because no one was using it.

As noted, this is a bluff. Unfortunately, it's like 'Western style poker', you can bluff with more money in the pot. That is until someone can put enough in the pot to match it. You and I probably don't have that much.

 

[JohnnyC]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

Think this is silly? Look at all the shit Dick Swan trademarked. Whether or not it's realistically enforceable, he had the paperwork to prove it was valid, and it would take money to fight it to prove otherwise. The LT-170 is a good example of forcing a name change.

 

[okiefired]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

I'd like to see the ENTIRE e-mail sent by Armalite to the OP. As far as I know Armalite has never sued anyone over just the "10" but has won several cases involving the trademark "AR10" which they unquestionably own. Like I said before, this is nothing new, Armalite has been battleing this for years but every flegling still starts calling thier big bore AR an AR10 mainly because they didn't do thier homework. Cant figure out what all the childish bickering is about, they own the trademark, they can defend it or not, its thier choice. I cant understand why anyone but Armalite would give a fuck anyway. An AR10 is an Armalite.....period.

okie

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Randoman5</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

...


Someone is bound to make Armalite put their money where their mouth is on this and I guess we'll see what you can and can't use in your semi-automatic rifle name then.</div></div>

The scary situation with that is what if Remington buys a small builder and is laying in wait for Armalite?

I can understand Armalite not liking people using the 'term' AR-10 (stands for Automatic rifle, pattern 10) because they sell their product off of it. But saying that other's can't use it when it's public domain is wrong.

I like Armalite a lot. I'd own an AR-10, and I have owned an AR-30. I want to own one again. I don't have so much of a problem with them, it's the lawyer types that want to take something from everyone (read: monopoly on the English language) that I can't stand.

So, if a company Lawyer and Chief Accountant at a major corporation fell into the pool at the company party and were drowning, do you continue to drink beer or switch to red wine?

 

[Jhnmdahl]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But saying that other's can't use it when it's public domain is wrong.</div></div>

That's the whole point - AR-10 is not in the public domain, but is something they came up with and trademarked to identify their unique product. You can call your facial tissues Kleenex all you want, but you can't sell them that way unless you're the one who invented and trademarked the term.

John

 

[tbeasley]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

screw them
call it AR-1.0

last time I checked thats 9 away from 10

 

[fd-defense]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jhnmdahl</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But saying that other's can't use it when it's public domain is wrong.</div></div>

That's the whole point - AR-10 is not in the public domain, but is something they came up with and trademarked to identify their unique product. You can call your facial tissues Kleenex all you want, but you can't sell them that way unless you're the one who invented and trademarked the term.

John </div></div>

Every one of my customers call my rifle an "AR-10". Everyone who calls me is wanting to know about my "AR-10" rifles. Every, single, person. Even though I don't reference "AR-10" anywhere on my website, literature, or in conversation. "AR-10" has become a fair-use term over the past 3-4 years. It is now unenforceable as a trademark. Any successful lawsuits would have very likely been before every person started to referring to auto-loading 308's as AR-10's, or the suit was settled, or the defense attorney sucked.

 

[milo 2.0]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

So, if a company Lawyer and Chief Accountant at a major corporation fell into the pool at the company party and were drowning, do you continue to drink beer or switch to red wine? </div></div>

Why would you risk the chance of missing such an occasion by switching beverages, when you could wait till it was over and have a glass of champagne with everyone?

This thread is going nowhere, it is just an argument. You either agree or disagree with Armalite's decision.

Honestly, I don't see what Mr. Snyder had to gain by starting it. Just throw it out there, let the masses whine about it, makes no sense.

Move the fuck on! You lost. And you lost any future business from me for the grandstanding. And I am no Armalite fan.

 

[Ballista One]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fd-defense</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Every one of my customers call my rifle an "AR-10". Everyone who calls me is wanting to know about my "AR-10" rifles. Every, single, person. Even though I don't reference "AR-10" anywhere on my website, literature, or in conversation. "AR-10" has become a fair-use term over the past 3-4 years. <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">It is now unenforceable as a tradema</span>rk.</span> Any successful lawsuits would have very likely been before every person started to referring to auto-loading 308's as AR-10's, or the suit was settled, or the defense attorney sucked. </div></div>

I'd like to see you step up to the plate and challenge Armalite's unenforceable trademark. How much money do you think it will take to prove your right?
Until then, you should consider your words more wisely. Just because it's your turn to talk doesn't mean you should.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GhostFace</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Most of the guys that said they won't buy an Armalite now probably never intended to in the first pla</span>ce.</span> Just because people call tissue, Kleenex, tape, Scotch or .308 ARs, AR-10s doesn't make it right. If any of you we're at Arfcom about 8 years ago people came to the Armalite section bitching about their AR-10s not working, come to find out the vast majority were not even Armalites! That is reason alone to protect your tradmark. Like said if some one started using The letters OBR along with something else I am damn sure Mark would be all over them and rightfully so. I am also sure that some that are bitching about Armalites decision would be cheering Mark along. </div></div>

Exactly...

 

[Jhnmdahl]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fd-defense</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jhnmdahl</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But saying that other's can't use it when it's public domain is wrong.</div></div>

That's the whole point - AR-10 is not in the public domain, but is something they came up with and trademarked to identify their unique product. You can call your facial tissues Kleenex all you want, but you can't sell them that way unless you're the one who invented and trademarked the term.

John </div></div>

Every one of my customers call my rifle an "AR-10". Everyone who calls me is wanting to know about my "AR-10" rifles. Every, single, person. Even though I don't reference "AR-10" anywhere on my website, literature, or in conversation. "AR-10" has become a fair-use term over the past 3-4 years. It is now unenforceable as a trademark. Any successful lawsuits would have very likely been before every person started to referring to auto-loading 308's as AR-10's, or the suit was settled, or the defense attorney sucked. </div></div>

It doesn't work that way. Just because people call all facial tissue "Kleenex", or all bandages "Band-Aids" doesn't mean that the trademarks have become generic and are available for all to use. This only happens if the manufacturer fails to defend their trademark as well, as happened with "Aspirin", "Thermos", and "Zipper." Here, Armalite is clearly taking steps to prevent others from using their trademark in commerce, and as with Kleenex or Band-Aids it is not sufficient that the general public uses the term generically.

John

 

[Rob01]

Re: Watch out Ar 308 makers and smiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BallistaOne</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GhostFace</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Most of the guys that said they won't buy an Armalite now probably never intended to in the first pla</span>ce.</span> Just because people call tissue, Kleenex, tape, Scotch or .308 ARs, AR-10s doesn't make it right. If any of you we're at Arfcom about 8 years ago people came to the Armalite section bitching about their AR-10s not working, come to find out the vast majority were not even Armalites! That is reason alone to protect your tradmark. Like said if some one started using The letters OBR along with something else I am damn sure Mark would be all over them and rightfully so. I am also sure that some that are bitching about Armalites decision would be cheering Mark along. </div></div>

Exactly...</div></div>

He's right. I wasn't planning on buying an Armilite. Can't say that I never was going to buy one as I like to keep my options open but I can now after this. Why would I though when there are plenty other Aye Are 9+1 style rifles out there that are better options. That's why I own a GAP-9+1