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Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

#51
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Goldie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dagsta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gunfighter, I'm with you bro. You can suck up and confuse numbers all you want but debt is debt!!! And right now the lesser you have of it the better off you will be for a very long time.

I am 55 and have virtually no debt. Busted my ass to get that way, but in this economy that is how I want it to be, and have instructed my grown kids to tread very carefully.

I'm not a naysayer by heart but I firmly believe things are going to get worse before they get better. And no one will be able to take the roof over my head away from me!!! </div></div>

Well said Dag. Im 61 and have no debt (with the exception of one car loan at 2.49% which i have the money to pay off but would rather leave it invested at roughly 15%.). Wonderful feeling. I have no sympathy for those who just sign for it and then lose it. No body held a gun to their head to make them sign.

Ive got a buddy who bought a home for $500,00 at the hight of the houseing inflation and they gave him and extra $50,000 cash at closing to "spend as you wish". Now the 50K is long gone, hes ARM is going up, and the house is worth $300,00 tops. He blames the bank for suckering him. I laugh in his face and he doesnt like it but as I said, "no body held a gun to his head".</div></div>


There is no such thing as an "honest" investment that pays 15% per annum in this investment climate.




Shall we talk about how clever you were to work hard to be debt free when those banks and mortgage institutions since 1998 or so were working to undermine the title chain and thereby destroy real property values? Not many mortgages originated since that time weren't sold into the various investment instruments and credit default swap derivatives which took no steps to protect/safeguard the title integrity of property they purported to own in trust for the property buyers...

Your property values have also been diminished by the actions of these criminals...

All those who made loans and then sold their interests into bundled packages of mortgage acted knowingly and against the interest of their customers. Such action constitutes a fraud and sharp practices, not to mention other torts against those they had duty and liability to protect.

Yet, they acted solely to loot money from the system and investors all over the world... Real estate prices have fallen by 30% or more, but your taxes haven't; yet because the mortgage pirates fkd up the title chain, you can't transfer title without a cloud, because who actually "owns" the note and should be paid off?

We have ALL been defrauded and robbed by those entrusted with Fiduciary Duty to our society and Nation.

Your being out of debt matters not one bit in the scope of the disaster facing America and the rest of the world. Doesn't matter what your credit score is or how much your investments earned you. At the end of the day paper is not wealth and cannot produce wealth. Paper is just the means by which we allow ourselves to be robbed and defrauded.
 
#52
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

We're in a credit deleveraging cycle, it's deflationary. Cash is king. If you're going on about the stimulus then that money has not entered into the broader supply of money - via credit - which would be a vital necessity for that stimulus to become inflationary.

If you think inflation is around the corner then put your money where your mouth is go and get into debt, spend freely, why not? Tomorrow that debt will be worth less and less as the inflation goes up and up.... no? </div></div>


Deleveraging - I love it when terms are badied about with little regard for the nuts and bolts meaning in specific context. Individual Americans are being forced to deleverage because of the constriction of the credit market - that forced delever means everything from increased BKs and foreclosures to loss of otherwise consumer spending. The Government itself is not deleveraging and they are in fact running the tab up faster than ever before. We all know the downsides of that too. There are some investors that willfully and with full knowledge delevered by paying off debt and or canceling lines of credit - which have the general net effect of idling otherwise productive sectors of the econ.

Deleveraging has NOTHING to do with devaluation. The velocity of credit does not determine value. Value in today's America is based on the creditworthiness of the dollar. This is directly related to confidence in both the short and long term view of America.

Cash is king because of uncertainty.

As for goading people with the argument of using inflation to their advantage, in the face of all of the discussion about loss of the US credit rating and loss of WRC status - what was true up until now may not be true in the future.

Once people begin to get a handle on how centralized banking works and what the advantages and disadvantages are they need to start to ask themselves where we are on the continuum. If they see the FED as still a viable central bank for both the US and effectively the rest of the world - then great, the game will continue much as it has. If however you think the paradigm has about reached its zenith, well.... plan accordingly.


Good luck
 
#53
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

Well now, it seems everyone wants to violently agree with me without knowing it...

1. Deleverage. The context and references I've used that term in are precise and accurate and not just because I say so. Specifically in my previous posts I've mentioned that the supply of credit has and continues to contract. Now, I've also mentioned already that there is a difference between the money the govt has been gifting to the banks and the money (or lack) the banks extend to the masses. This difference is why we can have an expanding govt spending and a contraction in credit availability. THE NET EFFECT is deleveraging which in current terms is resulting in a net deflationary effect as opposed to inflation.

2. What does delation mean to the average Joe? It means if you owe money - debt - the value of that debt rises. Not the dollar amount, but it's worth. Hence why in my first post on this thread I made a BIG deal about staying away from debt, being liquid (cash) and HAVING IT AT HAND. which means if Gunfighter wants to tell me anecdotes of people locked out of their banks and unable to get a hold of their money then guess what - I've already covered that.

3. Devaluation. I said nothing about devalution of what something is worth. QUITE THE OPPOSITE. In a delfationary cycle the value of good and services go UP because money is more expensive. That one dollar in pennies in Ubet's pocket goes up in value in regards to what he's able to buy. He can now buy TWO Ken dolls whereas before he'd have to make do with just one and his imaginary friend at play time. Currency devaluation and deflation in that currency's economy are inversly proportional. Hence if you track the rise of the TED Spread you'll see a rise in the value of the dollar. If anyone doesn't know what the TED Spread is it's basically a good metric to judge the level of willingness of banks to lend to eachother. The lower that willingness, the higher the dollar went.

So to recap for the mentally retarded who spend too much time with and are in too close a proximity to a horse's ass:

1. For consumers, less credit. This mean deflation. This means debt is a really bad idea. But it also means the value of the dollar will rise.

2. High dollar means cheap imports but bad for US domestic producers who sell overseas (bad for jobs).

3. Best thing to do in delationary times - CASH. You will be able to buy more, with less money, as the value of the dollar rises. It also means firms will carry less inventory as the cost of doing so rises, hence in the early stages - SALES. Big Ones.

4. Armageddon. Really? This isn't Pakistan or Mexico but if you want to use Armageddon to justify buying more guns and bullets then by all means go ahead. I have (to the wife) and now thoroughly enjoy my handguns, Dozier KS-7 and TacOps (when it gets here).

There, I've said it all. Don't care anymore. Be safe, be prepared and if not...
smile.gif
 
#54
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bignada</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Greece, like America and all other Nations of the world, has been defrauded by the International Bankers and Moneymen through their use of the pseudo-financial instruments known collectively as derivatives.

Professor Laurence Kotlikoff, tenured professor of Economics at Boston Univ last August published his finding that America actually had (then) a total Federal Debt of about $207 Trillion rather than the $13 T admitted to. Don't add in all the Social Security funds raided over the years, and funding mandates and it is easy to hide $194 Trillion from the American People...


Greece is supposed to sell-off its National Assets and impose austerity upon the people, to continue their banking charade. Fiat money is not a store of wealth or "money"; it is merely accepted as such, until it isn't.

America has been economically ruined since 1979, just as Greece and all other IMF nations have been. China is tottering on collapse at this moment also.

The basic fact of life is: You can't do business with people who don't have any money.

The basic monetary fact of life is: You can't use fiat money to fund sustainable economy because the money to pay the interest on the fiat is not created or available...

America has been destroyed intentionally and it was planned as revenge against Andrew Jackson. With the help of 3 Senators who met secretly on Dec 24th 1913 in the Senate Cloakroom at 8pm declaring a quorum and voting in The Federal Reserve Act, our Nation was setup for failure and to be looted.

Since 2008, America has been looted for every loose dollar that could be robbed via Government spending and market manipulation.

Not much time left to get ready to survive what is coming. Hope you are out of the line of fire in so many respects...
</div></div>

Oy...

And your credentials are?
 
#55
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

Those $100 bills in your pocket event, wont be worth a damn when our dollar crashes, why, because its just paper. Being debt free, and owning tangibles, will always be worth more than monopoly money.

Event, are you one those those investment bankers that stomped on the gas to get us to this point?
 
#56
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ubet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those $100 bills in your pocket event, wont be worth a damn when our dollar crashes, why, because its just paper. Being debt free, and owning tangibles, will always be worth more than monopoly money.

Event, are you one those those investment bankers that stomped on the gas to get us to this point? </div></div>

When it crashes?


What happens when it doesn't crash? I just spent the last hour in my office, working, with Glenn Beck running his dystopic suck about the impending catastrophe. Did you know how much economics Glenn Beck studied in his one semester at Yale? Even less than Rush!

Well that would only be possible if I used the sloppy math that is so frequently bandied about by all the "Financial experts": That is if zero could be less than zero.

What I find particularly ironic is how all those with 100% certainty that our nation's currency is about to crash, in the attempt to preserve their capital or profit (Or insure their own hedging remains profitable), think nothing of sabotaging the economy with their know nothing pessimism, cynicism and "Economic Savvy" but would stomp the fuck out of any one who shit upon our flag.
 
#57
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bignada</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Goldie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dagsta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gunfighter, I'm with you bro. You can suck up and confuse numbers all you want but debt is debt!!! And right now the lesser you have of it the better off you will be for a very long time.

I am 55 and have virtually no debt. Busted my ass to get that way, but in this economy that is how I want it to be, and have instructed my grown kids to tread very carefully.

I'm not a naysayer by heart but I firmly believe things are going to get worse before they get better. And no one will be able to take the roof over my head away from me!!! </div></div>

Well said Dag. Im 61 and have no debt (with the exception of one car loan at 2.49% which i have the money to pay off but would rather leave it invested at roughly 15%.). Wonderful feeling. I have no sympathy for those who just sign for it and then lose it. No body held a gun to their head to make them sign.

Ive got a buddy who bought a home for $500,00 at the hight of the houseing inflation and they gave him and extra $50,000 cash at closing to "spend as you wish". Now the 50K is long gone, hes ARM is going up, and the house is worth $300,00 tops. He blames the bank for suckering him. I laugh in his face and he doesnt like it but as I said, "no body held a gun to his head".</div></div>


<span style="color: #FF0000"> There is no such thing as an "honest" investment that pays 15% per annum in this investment climate.</span>




Shall we talk about how clever you were to work hard to be debt free when those banks and mortgage institutions since 1998 or so were working to undermine the title chain and thereby destroy real property values? Not many mortgages originated since that time weren't sold into the various investment instruments and credit default swap derivatives which took no steps to protect/safeguard the title integrity of property they purported to own in trust for the property buyers...

Your property values have also been diminished by the actions of these criminals...

All those who made loans and then sold their interests into bundled packages of mortgage acted knowingly and against the interest of their customers. Such action constitutes a fraud and sharp practices, not to mention other torts against those they had duty and liability to protect.

Yet, they acted solely to loot money from the system and investors all over the world... Real estate prices have fallen by 30% or more, but your taxes haven't; yet because the mortgage pirates fkd up the title chain, you can't transfer title without a cloud, because who actually "owns" the note and should be paid off?

We have ALL been defrauded and robbed by those entrusted with Fiduciary Duty to our society and Nation.

<span style="color: #CC0000"> Your being out of debt matters not one bit in the scope of the disaster facing America and the rest of the world. Doesn't matter what your credit score is or how much your investments earned you. At the end of the day paper is not wealth and cannot produce wealth. Paper is just the means by which we allow ourselves to be robbed and defrauded.</span>




</div></div>

Respectfully, you dont know what your talking about in the first statement. Ive been making better than 15% for the last several years, all legal, and secured by merchandise. Its called investing in art, and collectibles. Did you hear that Marilyn Monroes dress that she wore in one of her movies just solld at auction for 4.6 million. <span style="font-size: 20pt">4,600,000 for a goddamned dress </span> All that money didnt just go away. While a lot of the middle class got fucked really well, that money went into the pocckets of a few shrewd unscrupulous individuals who are just now starting to let it out. You just have to know how to access it. Check out the article in Bloomberg, "Art is as good as Gold in an inflation era" May 19, 2009.

As far as your second statement I highlighted, wrong again. the careful will get by. I for one took the time to learn and am invested across a broad spectrum. Only one of those being lead.
 
#58
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

QQ,

Weather you agree with me or not, one thing is for sure. My dollar doesnt go as far now, as it did in 06, so if you want to call this a crash, a recovery, or hamsters dancing around in the rain with pancakes on their head, call it what you want. I know damn sure and well, I make the same as I did in 06/07, but my money goes about 30% less than it did 4-5years ago. So for me, yeah, the dollar is devaluating, isnt worth as much, but the price of everything is going up, from groceries to fuel (which are intertwined).

We used to keep criovacs of rib eye in the freezer, now we keep store bought hamburger, or meat I have butchered/traded for.
 
#59
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

I keep hearing about the stock market crashing and think to myself "Self, this could be a GREAT opportunity to buy stocks!"


Why in fact when a certain president opens his mouth the stock market dips down, extreme. I've seen in 4 weeks in a row and each and every time I bought and held for short duration and made about $450.

$450 in less than 4 hours. Not bad....

I agree with Q that I don't htink it will "Crash", but it is self-levelling and it will level, maybe lower, after the fed pulls it's sticky fingers out of the market.

Chinese stocks have done well too...

Disaster is not the end of the wo rld, one bad situation could be anothers opportunity.
 
#60
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArcticLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I keep hearing about the stock market crashing and think to myself "Self, this could be a GREAT opportunity to buy stocks!"


Why in fact when a certain president opens his mouth the stock market dips down, extreme. I've seen in 4 weeks in a row and each and every time I bought and held for short duration and made about $450.

$450 in less than 4 hours. Not bad....

I agree with Q that I don't htink it will "Crash", but it is self-levelling and it will level, maybe lower, after the fed pulls it's sticky fingers out of the market.

Chinese stocks have done well too...

Disaster is not the end of the wo rld, one bad situation could be anothers opportunity.

</div></div>

I've made more money in the stock market in the last 8 months than I had made in the previous 8 years, not that that's saying to much.
 
#62
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

I don't dispute that there is inflation, nor that there is systemic deceit at many levels to distract us from this fact. That is due to political manipulation that I dare not go into here!
laugh.gif


As to the impending crash...

Let me give you a glimpse of my perspective. My line of construction is strictly commercial: Office, retail, industrial, name it. I deal with business people every day. Some are brilliant, unbelievably hard working, conscientious, forward thinking, amazing people.

Some are shameless thieves who would steal from their own families if it didn't mean they couldn;t steal from them again down the road.

The vast majority are people who run the gamut and reside somewhere in the middle of the two extremes I outlined. But at the core of all of it is commerce. The simplicity of commerce is almost Zen like in the amazing inability of so many people to grasp it.

In short, what I object to most strenuously is profiteers who create nothing while manipulating hapless people and, consequently, markets, to their own ends while pretending to be saviors.

In the '90s' the know it all stock and tech douchebags were leasing space every where. When the tech bubble burst, they bugged out of their leases and abandoned their buildings, regardless of their obligations.

Many of these assholes reemerged a few years later in the real estate market as brokers, mortgage originators, appraisers and other less than upright people.

I am seeing the same people returning as financial experts.

I didn't believe them 20 years ago. I haven't changed my outlook. So I build their spaces (the doors and hardware only now)but as always, I'll let time tell me if they are true instruments of commerce or yet more dishonest opportunists.

And I maintain my lien rights!
 
#63
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

Event - for my part I take umbridge with the way the media and some individuals use terms without respect to meaning in context. Particularly when they freely mix the macro and micro whenever it suits them.

One of my real pet peeves is 'Jobless Recovery'. The media has thrown that around for a couple years now like it is a good thing. "America is in the midst of a jobless recovery". However there is no discourse as to what this means. In the face of dwindling sales, business entities will seek to maximize profits by cutting expenses. The single largest expense for many business entities is labor. So in the context of an individual business entity, they may 'recover' sufficiently to withstand the down turn. Yet an individual employee won't. When 20%+ of the individual employees have become the burden of all of America - the word 'recovery' is a misnomer.

Delever is a misnomer if discussed on an econ wide scale - on an econ wide scale you can not be in the process of delever if the money supply is expanding.

<span style="font-style: italic">What does delation mean to the average Joe? It means if you owe money - debt - the value of that debt rises. Not the dollar amount, but it's worth.</span>

Not trackin with you here. The debt is worth more? How is a liability 'worth more'? Help me out here, the note is $1,000 US / it is being paid for in US - how did the 'value' of the note increase? Are you trying to say that the face amount on the note is fixed at $1M but since the currency used to repay the note is declining in terms of purchasing power....then again it's nominal for nominal...and if you have fixed terms...again - not real clear here. Maybe I am just one of the retarded that you are angry with. Since you mentioned that you're rather scholarly in the field of econ / finance - maybe you can provide a cite in which a disinterested investor would be willing to pay more for the value of that liability simply based on deflation.


Not that I am a fan of Krugman but he does a reasonable job of discussing some of the concepts that many here are poking around the edges of in his article Can Deflation Be Prevented?

People should pay attention to the simple concept of over supply as a definition of deflation and ask - is that an answer in this case, or a symptom of the illness. Secondly when reviewing the concept of liquidity traps - consider how liquidity (credit) is not available to all and how this skews the outcome.

If you believe that the issue would work itself out faster if the full breadth of the problem manifested itself at once - consider both the pro and the con to masking the real impacts of this current economic condition by largely using the stimulus money to prop up constituents, as give away money for make work that did nothing (shovel ready projects meant repaving BTW) and up to 99 weeks of unemployment....


Good luck



 
#64
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

QQ,

I definetly agree (now) with what you were/are saying. I think a lot gets lost in typing, we are all saying the samething, just in different ways. How many ways to skin that cat?
 
#65
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

Must be something in the water in some places.

Sounds to me like some will just have to pee on the electric fence for their own answer.

I prefer to trust factual history, and the words of those that have BTDT, myself. If you don't believe a correction is coming fine with me,... stay the course. Me, I'm kind of like the Israelis, why set there and waste a good preemptive move, to keep the game from overwhelming my chances of watching from the side lines?
 
#66
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

Wow, Im surprised I havent been deluged with pm's asking "Where can I get a secure 15%"?
 
#67
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Goldie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow, Im surprised I havent been deluged with pm's asking "Where can I get a secure 15%"? </div></div>

What is the timeline for return on investment. When you buy a product do you have to wait 15 years to sell it and make your profit? Or is it a much shorter time frame?
 
#68
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wdebo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Goldie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow, Im surprised I havent been deluged with pm's asking "Where can I get a secure 15%"? </div></div>

What is the timeline for return on investment. When you buy a product do you have to wait 15 years to sell it and make your profit? Or is it a much shorter time frame? </div></div>

It varies. the most important thing is, if you dont know the medium, know your dealer., and buy quality. Once i bought a Fredrick Remington print for $15,000 and he turned it the next day for $30,000 and we split the profit. That is really the exception. I bought an Andy Warhol print a year ago for 15K, and it looks like it will sell this month for 18-20K, so figure 10-15% for the year which is more common. But if it doesnt sell i have a nice print to hang on the wall til it does sell. Ive done pretty well with Navajo blankets as well. And some of them are really beautiful....so nice you dont want to sell them. If someone can tell me how to post a photo from my pictures file Ill post it.

the key is to KNOW YOUR DEALER, and be patient. The last Rembcrant that sold at Sothebys went for $350,000,000..... <span style="font-size: 20pt"> $350,000,000 for a painting</span>
 
#69
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

Goldie,
That's interesting. We are really diversified but never thought about this avenue. My wife is a financial advisor, I will have to run this idea past her. I have a guy that wants me to jump into the full auto's for investments, Not sure on that yet.
 
#70
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wdebo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Goldie,
That's interesting. We are really diversified but never thought about this avenue. My wife is a financial advisor, I will have to run this idea past her. I have a guy that wants me to jump into the full auto's for investments, Not sure on that yet. </div></div>

Check the "This is really r;;ked up thread before you do, full autos aint art.
 
#71
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

Thanks guys, I'm neither rich nor stupid. I have a mortgage and medical debt enough to know I probably won't live long enough to pay it all. Not really a choice, but some of you don't seem to consider such situations when you paint all of us debtors with your broad brush. My your times become as interesting as mine have become over the past 20 or so years.

Maybe you'll learn to hold your tongues a little better...

I know I'm sure sorry I joined this topic.

Greg
 
#72
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

I have been amazed by some trains of thought in here.

While a return on day trading is making a few guys 100 dollars an hour, many more lose as much if not more. Course the 100 dollars an hour is misleading. Is always for a few hours out of the work week, never mentions any losses, (like my friends trips to Vegas), and doesnt impress loan officers if wanting to buy something on credit.

Question always crosses my mind, this money made in day trading, is it left in the game or cashed out?

However it was fascinating to see the 450 compared the 15 large in this sort of speculation.

To my simple mind a few bucks worth of fabric being considered worth thousands is as fiat as one can get. Just because it covered a flozzie's cooze some think its worth alot of money.

And that group isnt the average guy who is working hard, worried his job will be shipped overseas or a illness can cash him out of the middle class game.

The art speculation market might be a good one to play if you have thousands in redundant income because the really rich are not as affected in this current economic situation. Looks like our society has become decoupled between the economic classes.

But looks to me only if you think letting 15K hang on the family room wall is just fine.
 
#73
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have been amazed by some trains of thought in here.

While a return on day trading is making a few 100 dollars an hour many more lose as much if not more. Course the 100 dollars an hour is misleading. Is always for a few hours out of the work week, never mentions any losses, like my friends trips to Vegas, and doesnt impress loan officers if wanting to buy something on credit.

Question always crosses my mind, this money made in day trading, is it left in the game or cashed out?

However it was fascinating to see the 450 compared the 15 large in this sort of speculation.

To my simple mind a few bucks worth of fabric being considered worth thousands is as fiat as one can get. Just because it covered a flozzie's cooze some think its worth alot of money.

And that group isnt the average guy who is working hard, worried his job will be shipped overseas or a illness can cash him out of the middle class game.

The art speculation market might be a good one to play if you have thousands in redundant income because the really rich are not as affected in this current economic situation. Looks like our society has become decoupled between the economic classes.

But looks to me only if you think letting 15K hang on the family room wall is just fine. </div></div>

I dont justify it, but if someone is stupid enough to pay, Ill sell. Before you get self righteous, how many expensive firearms do you own that sit in the guncase? Or that 57 Chevy your restoreing to sell for big bucks? How is that different from my Navajo blanket? Grow up. And how much of your profit do you share to help those less fortunate than your self? I give a minimum of 10% of every dollar that passes through my hands to the Red Cross, or some other org. that helps those in times of distress...how about you? Or will you just run down my choice of charities?
 
#74
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have been amazed by some trains of thought in here.

While a return on day trading is making a few guys 100 dollars an hour, many more lose as much if not more. Course the 100 dollars an hour is misleading. Is always for a few hours out of the work week, never mentions any losses, (like my friends trips to Vegas), and doesnt impress loan officers if wanting to buy something on credit.

Question always crosses my mind, this money made in day trading, is it left in the game or cashed out?

However it was fascinating to see the 450 compared the 15 large in this sort of speculation.

To my simple mind a few bucks worth of fabric being considered worth thousands is as fiat as one can get. Just because it covered a flozzie's cooze some think its worth alot of money.

And that group isnt the average guy who is working hard, worried his job will be shipped overseas or a illness can cash him out of the middle class game.

The art speculation market might be a good one to play if you have thousands in redundant income because the really rich are not as affected in this current economic situation. Looks like our society has become decoupled between the economic classes.

But looks to me only if you think letting 15K hang on the family room wall is just fine. </div></div>

The people losing, aren't trading well. The stock market is always a gamble and always has been. If someone is losing money at it they're not playing the odds well plain and simple. If you're letting someone else manage your money for you then it's just like you're gambling by proxy.

My overall standing in the stock market is a net positive of probably 4250$ or so, but that's only because I'm poor and can only manage to put a 100$ in from time to time to move around.

I've gotten lucky a few times to be fair, but really in all honesty it's always just seemed as simple to me as buying things when they're obviously cheaper than they're worth, and selling them when I get that itch on the back of my neck that things are going to take a dive.

Same with 401k's, and I've barely lost anything in the last two crashes.

If I had any real money invested I'd probably play it a lot safer, but I only ever trade with money I don't need just to see if I can learn how, and I've done decently for what little I've done.

I have had some minor losses, but overall I've always made money on the stock market, and I see these recent dives as another good opportunity to make even more which I'm doing
smile.gif
 
#75
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

Before you get all medieval on the world take a step back and reevaluate your thoughts gents...

Credit per se aint' bad however rigged game and criminal behavior IS. The latter two is what's killing the world and be it a game of craps down the street or Wallstreet banking at its wildest incarnation.

Some just don't have other option than to take a loan and while i agree taking a loan for iWife is a waste of future income there are circumstances where one HAS no other way than to borrow or where speculating CAN lead to profits.
The main problem i see is that plutocracy is the name of the game and that game is so twisted that anyone playing it (without inside info) is being setup for a loss and there is no intent to set the game straight - hence less and less people will be willing to play it and hence in the end is here.
 
#76
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sharac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Before you get all medieval on the world take a step back and reevaluate your thoughts gents...

Credit per se aint' bad however rigged game and criminal behavior IS. The latter two is what's killing the world and be it a game of craps down the street or Wallstreet banking at its wildest incarnation.

Some just don't have other option than to take a loan and while i agree taking a loan for iWife is a waste of future income there are circumstances where one HAS no other way than to borrow or where speculating CAN lead to profits.
The main problem i see is that plutocracy is the name of the game and that game is so twisted that anyone playing it (without inside info) is being setup for a loss and there is no intent to set the game straight - hence less and less people will be willing to play it and hence in the end is here. </div></div>

well, that was succinct and well stated I couldn't disagree in any way.
 
#77
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: COURAGEWOLF</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sharac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Before you get all medieval on the world take a step back and reevaluate your thoughts gents...

Credit per se aint' bad however rigged game and criminal behavior IS. The latter two is what's killing the world and be it a game of craps down the street or Wallstreet banking at its wildest incarnation.

Some just don't have other option than to take a loan and while i agree taking a loan for iWife is a waste of future income there are circumstances where one HAS no other way than to borrow or where speculating CAN lead to profits.
The main problem i see is that plutocracy is the name of the game and that game is so twisted that anyone playing it (without inside info) is being setup for a loss and there is no intent to set the game straight - hence less and less people will be willing to play it and hence in the end is here. </div></div>

well, that was succinct and well stated I couldn't disagree in any way. </div></div>

+2
 
#78
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-style: italic">What does delation mean to the average Joe? It means if you owe money - debt - the value of that debt rises. Not the dollar amount, but it's worth.</span>

Not trackin with you here. The debt is worth more? How is a liability 'worth more'? Help me out here, the note is $1,000 US / it is being paid for in US - how did the 'value' of the note increase? Are you trying to say that the face amount on the note is fixed at $1M but since the currency used to repay the note is declining in terms of purchasing power....then again it's nominal for nominal...and if you have fixed terms...again - not real clear here. Maybe I am just one of the retarded that you are angry with. Since you mentioned that you're rather scholarly in the field of econ / finance - maybe you can provide a cite in which a disinterested investor would be willing to pay more for the value of that liability simply based on deflation.

</div></div>

What I mean is that if you owe $1 then in a deflationary cycle that value of that $1 increases in regards to its purchasing power. Hence, the value of that debt or 'cost' of that debt is higher than let's say 1 year previously when $1 bought less and so the opportunity cost of paying it was less. Understand also that in deflationary times, wages also decline (as is happening right now for some time) and so people's gross incomes are lower also.

This is why in times of delation, bond prices go through the roof. It's also why high dividend stocks are prized because of the cash stream - the value of those payouts is higher today than yesterday.

On the investing side of things, I do not own a mutual fund. I invest in individual stocks where I am very familiar with the product/tech and market or I have some knowledge about the company that makes me believe they're a good long term bet. This numbers in about a dozen companies. The rest I trade. I trade where I think the market will turn, or there will be price changes in individual stocks based on previous, recent price patterns.

To me, buy&hold isn't dead but in a deep coma. I'm not interested until I see the resumption of the bear market where I think we'll see a 25% correction. At that point - maybe - I'll get back in in a big way. Until then, I'm happy and doing alright sniping my profits here and there.
 
#79
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

Oh Goldie-
Dont cop such a 'tude dude! I didnt ask for any justification on speculators. Not sure what numbers you use to see restoring old cars as tremendous money makers, those who do that around here put alot of manhours and cash into the deal.

More a labor of love and yes a bit more of ego to show the toy off but not going to make you rich. Though between a blanket or painting and the '57chevy, I'd rather hang onto the chevy than hang the other two on my wall.

Just noticed the social gap between those who have taken it on the chin in this new economic climate and those who buy and sell what I see as the ultimate fiat.

Wolf-
You sandbagger you
grin.gif


Poor isnt a guy who can toss 100K around the market. I keep reading about a 'nervous' stock market. No such animal. Just a bunch of speculators hopping in and out of the market taking a profit here and there. This volatility in the market is not what the average working Joe needs. He is good at building a house, fixing your car, cleaning your teeth. Some may have the leisure time to devout to stock market analysis, some have kids.

Not judging, just taking note, dont pop a Goldie on me!
wink.gif


Sharac-
Well said. If my good mortgage gets rolled into a shit roll and my bottomline suffers I would be mad. Comparing the stock market to a casino is very apt to include the House always gets a cut win lose or draw. The House can rig the game and if it falls to shit can rig the bailout.

But to be clear, no anger here. No judgement. Just noticing what was peddled in the 80's as the best thing since sliced bread, dumping retirement money into the stock market for management firms to shepard has created a ponzi scheme of incestious insider trading with sideshows for speculators nibble on the edges.

But they could be worse, they could be pwnshop owners!!!!
laugh.gif
 
#80
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh Goldie-
Dont cop such a 'tude dude! I didnt ask for any justification on speculators. Not sure what numbers you use to see restoring old cars as tremendous money makers, those who do that around here put alot of manhours and cash into the deal.

More a labor of love and yes a bit more of ego to show the toy off but not going to make you rich. Though between a blanket or painting and the '57chevy, I'd rather hang onto the chevy than hang the other two on my wall.

Just noticed the social gap between those who have taken it on the chin in this new economic climate and those who buy and sell what I see as the ultimate fiat.

Wolf-
You sandbagger you
grin.gif


Poor isnt a guy who can toss 100K around the market. I keep reading about a 'nervous' stock market. No such animal. Just a bunch of speculators hopping in and out of the market taking a profit here and there. This volatility in the market is not what the average working Joe needs. He is good at building a house, fixing your car, cleaning your teeth. Some may have the leisure time to devout to stock market analysis, some have kids.

Not judging, just taking note, dont pop a Goldie on me!
wink.gif


Sharac-
Well said. If my good mortgage gets rolled into a shit roll and my bottomline suffers I would be mad. Comparing the stock market to a casino is very apt to include the House always gets a cut win lose or draw. The House can rig the game and if it falls to shit can rig the bailout.

But to be clear, no anger here. No judgement. Just noticing what was peddled in the 80's as the best thing since sliced bread, dumping retirement money into the stock market for management firms to shepard has created a ponzi scheme of incestious insider trading with sideshows for speculators nibble on the edges.

But they could be worse, they could be pwnshop owners!!!!
laugh.gif
</div></div>

what on earth are you talking about?!? Such drivel. Are you saying having a family means one can't have time to be responsible over their own financial destiny - but you have to meddle with a car restoration.... having a family means you can't afford to NOT be involved and aggressive about your financial future. But I suppose it's easier to say 'oh it's for the 'Haves' and I'm a 'Have Not'...

That speculation in the stock markets hurts the Average Joe is wrong and you need to understand the role of liquidity ( the government feeling obliged to make good those banks who speculated poorly does however).

Social gap!? Pal, I was unemployed and on the verge of losing my home back in England thanks to the dot com bubble going pop. I looked around, saw what was hot in the areas I had knowledge, retrained myself and within 12 months was earning double. Saved like a demon, invested carefully and I got to where I am and doing what I'm doing by nothing other than hard graft and taking calculated risks. Some paid off and others cost me. It's called taking charge of your life.

You write as though there's some righteousness about being an average Joe. There isn't. It's just being average. It's a choice as well.

People are responsible for themselves and there is unfettered access to the markets for all. It's simply how hard and smart you're willing to be to try and make it work for you.
 
#81
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

Try this one....probrably sold for $20 new. Now its $110,000

LONDON (Reuters) – A revolver belonging to notorious American gangster Al Capone fetched 67,250 pounds ($110,000) at a London auction at Christie's on Wednesday. It had been expected to sell for 50-70,000 pounds.

The Colt .38 revolver was sold by a private collector, who provided an original personal letter from Madeleine Capone Morichetti, the widow of Al's brother Ralph Capone, confirming that the gun "previously belonged to and was only used by Al Capone while he was alive."

Colt records indicate that the pistol was made in May, 1929, just a few months after the famous Valentine's Day massacre in Chicago when seven people were killed in a prohibition-era clash between gangs including Capone's.

The successful buyer, who remained anonymous, was an online bidder.
 
#83
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A fool and his money are soon parted. Unfortunately, it seems to be the fools who have most of the disposable income. </div></div>

hmm... maybe they're not the fools...
 
#85
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

More rioting, more violence:

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Listening to the journalist, a default seems a foregone conclusion.
 
#86
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: COURAGEWOLF</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Veer_G</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Apparently, the French financial sector is heavily bought into Greek debt, and some 44% of US mutual funds are heavily invested in French banks. </div></div>

44% of mutual funds are how heavily invested in "French Banks". I'd be very curious to know the answer to this. Most of the mutual funds I own are not invested in French banks at all as far as I can tell, and I own some pretty generic ones. </div></div>

On topic, from the CSM:

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/Latest...y-Greek-default

As an example, Fidelity has 40% of its money market funds in European bank paper:

http://blogs.forbes.com/robertlenzner/2011/06/28/fidelity-believes-its-european-bank-holdings-safe/

Here's an article from a few months back about direct exposure:

http://www.thestreet.com/story/10684479/1/bond-funds-with-biggest-greek-exposure.html?puc=_tscrss
 
#87
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Veer_G</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: COURAGEWOLF</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Veer_G</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Apparently, the French financial sector is heavily bought into Greek debt, and some 44% of US mutual funds are heavily invested in French banks. </div></div>

44% of mutual funds are how heavily invested in "French Banks". I'd be very curious to know the answer to this. Most of the mutual funds I own are not invested in French banks at all as far as I can tell, and I own some pretty generic ones. </div></div>

On topic, from the CSM:

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/Latest...y-Greek-default

As an example, Fidelity has 40% of its money market funds in European bank paper:

http://blogs.forbes.com/robertlenzner/2011/06/28/fidelity-believes-its-european-bank-holdings-safe/

Here's an article from a few months back about direct exposure:

http://www.thestreet.com/story/10684479/1/bond-funds-with-biggest-greek-exposure.html?puc=_tscrss </div></div>


Thanks for clearing that up. SO the figure is 55% of 44% of US mutual funds are invested in French banks. Or, 22%.

That's still an astounding number to be certain, but that first one struck me as downright unbelievable.

I can deal with that.
 
#88
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: COURAGEWOLF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for clearing that up. SO the figure is 55% of 44% of US mutual funds are invested in French banks. Or, 22%.

That's still an astounding number to be certain, but that first one struck me as downright unbelievable.

I can deal with that. </div></div>

We're still in the vicinity of statistics, damned lies, and YMM damned well V at this point. I'm not sure that this is a completely accurate estimate of the risk, but it's substantial, anyway. The French and German economies are seen as two of the most stable in Europe and a natural place for Greek debt and American overseas investment to rest.
 
#89
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Veer_G</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: COURAGEWOLF</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Veer_G</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Apparently, the French financial sector is heavily bought into Greek debt, and some 44% of US mutual funds are heavily invested in French banks. </div></div>

44% of mutual funds are how heavily invested in "French Banks". I'd be very curious to know the answer to this. Most of the mutual funds I own are not invested in French banks at all as far as I can tell, and I own some pretty generic ones. </div></div>

On topic, from the CSM:

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/Latest...y-Greek-default

As an example, Fidelity has 40% of its money market funds in European bank paper:

http://blogs.forbes.com/robertlenzner/2011/06/28/fidelity-believes-its-european-bank-holdings-safe/

Here's an article from a few months back about direct exposure:

http://www.thestreet.com/story/10684479/1/bond-funds-with-biggest-greek-exposure.html?puc=_tscrss </div></div>

Here's a newer article on CSM that seems less inflamatory on the subject.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/2011/0620/How-exposed-is-US-economy-to-the-Greece-debt-crisis
 
#90
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: COURAGEWOLF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's a newer article on CSM that seems less inflamatory on the subject.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/2011/0620/How-exposed-is-US-economy-to-the-Greece-debt-crisis </div></div>

Thanks for the link. Greece needs to embrace reality and get through this thing, but political stability and economic strength have never been constants. Extremists of all sorts of stripes are waiting in the wings for things to get as bad as they were in the 40s. If they do default, and it gets messy, look for enhanced weakness in the rest of the sector and the possibility of Portugal, Spain, and Italy following rapid suit. Slightly less pessimistic viewpoints aside, the edge of the woods isn't in sight yet.
 
#91
Re: Watch the Greek situation carefully ...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Veer_G</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: COURAGEWOLF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's a newer article on CSM that seems less inflamatory on the subject.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/2011/0620/How-exposed-is-US-economy-to-the-Greece-debt-crisis </div></div>

Thanks for the link. Greece needs to embrace reality and get through this thing, but political stability and economic strength have never been constants. Extremists of all sorts of stripes are waiting in the wings for things to get as bad as they were in the 40s. If they do default, and it gets messy, look for enhanced weakness in the rest of the sector and the possibility of Portugal, Spain, and Italy following rapid suit. Slightly less pessimistic viewpoints aside, the edge of the woods isn't in sight yet. </div></div>


Agreed, we're in a precarious position. I would suggest though that we're in a much better position than nearly the rest of the human race in so far as that goes
laugh.gif
 
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