We found out you are stressed at work....so you won't be stressed you're fired.

[lariat]

This thread makes for a tough read. People I have hired have spanned the spectrum. I have given paroled felons a chance, millennials, gen-X and boomers a job. I have found lazy self absorbed asshats in every generation. I have also found hard, impressive workers in each one too. The conclusion I have come to is that personal honor has left our society and those that have it have parents that have/had it, and every single one can tell you stories of the ass beatings they got and the work they were responsible for as a kid. The rest are something close to parasites. Luckily the rest of the group sniff it out with a quickness because the incomplete work falls on them and they are having none of it.

But the real problem I have discovered is that the failed character people have at work is also how they are in their personal lives. You wouldn’t want to be their friends or even loosely associate with them. Their character and moral compass is that bad.

 

[Redmanss]

Thread drift back to the video in the OP, it was a PR stunt con job. In India.

Loading…

nypost.com

 

[Im2bent]

Thread drift back to the video in the OP, it was a PR stunt con job. In India.

Loading…

nypost.com

Maybe, maybe not. They are making this claim after receiving massive backlash. Now they claim the people who complained were given paid time off to "reset"....and they are giving everyone 6 days of paid time off per year for stress relief. In India, yeah right.

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

Maybe, maybe not. They are making this claim after receiving massive backlash. Now they claim the people who complained were given paid time off to "reset"....and they are giving everyone 6 days of paid time off per year for stress relief. In India, yeah right.

Why are they so stressed?

When they call me 18 times a day, all I do is cuss them like dogs, tell them that their ancestors were slaves, tell them that they are cannon fodder for the upcoming war against the Pakistan Muslims, I remind them that the Hindu kush mountains are named so because their ancestors were so dumb that they essentially lost an entire generation to a blizzard, and I tell them that they are the only nuclear country with a collective average IQ south of 100.

They usually hang up before I get that far, but sometimes they cry, and that's when I know I'm doing the lord's work.

 

[Bigfatcock]

I was trying not to sound crazy. The truth is that, for those who know, $200k is easy to spend on equipment and tooling to create elaborate custom woodwork. I figured if I said that, people would think I was exaggerating.

I can duplicate most anything made of wood, but I’m not cheap.

$200k comes fast. A Northfield table saw, Martin 20” jointer, any planer larger than 15”, shaper with cutters, large belt sander, and you can hit $200k without breaking a sweat. Oh, bandsaw, dust collection, finishing room with equipment, finishes, reference books, and hand tools. That’s off the top of my head.

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

I can duplicate most anything made of wood, but I’m not cheap.

$200k comes fast. A Northfield table saw, Martin 20” jointer, any planer larger than 15”, shaper with cutters, large belt sander, and you can hit $200k without breaking a sweat. Oh, bandsaw, dust collection, finishing room with equipment, finishes, reference books, and hand tools. That’s off the top of my head.

I don't have all of the equipment to do everything, and I might not ever get it. I have a few local guys that can do most of it. I've got enough to do the simple things. I'm trying to move more and towards steel fabrication and industrial work. I find it easier to pry big bucks from the hands of commercial and industrial customers than residential. Sounds like you've got a sweet setup though.

 

[Bigfatcock]

I don't have all of the equipment to do everything, and I might not ever get it. I have a few local guys that can do most of it. I've got enough to do the simple things. I'm trying to move more and towards steel fabrication and industrial work. I find it easier to pry big bucks from the hands of commercial and industrial customers than residential. Sounds like you've got a sweet setup though.

I still do most work with hand tools. The big tools are mainly for milling and wood prep.

To duplicate most older work you have to use hand tools. A lot of older work by the “masters” has many imperfections. They focused on the show face. Look inside and you’ll see marks from chisels, scrub planes, wedged dove tails, scrub lines, and other things. Moulding planes can be made to any profile you want. It’s a lot easier than it looks, you just have to know how to do it.

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

Get off my lawn!!!!!

 

[IronicTwitch]

I had worked for a large corporation the first 20 years of my career. Over time they slowly removed all the compensation benefits that used to drive all levels of the organization to want to be better, faster, cheaper. Without a performance related bonus, why would I want to push harder?

I moved to a 250-person employee owned company two years ago. THIS IS THE ANSWER! Earn stock options that are paid out when you leave/retire. The better the company does the more you earn! Easily more than double what I can saved into 401K max ($23K) each year. And everyone from the top to bottom earns the same % of their gross pay.

 

[BAMAboy18]

if you are not valued at work....and you stay....it's your fault. years past, with a tight job market, i understand. but right now, the employee has the upper hand. being loyal to a company that mistreats you is something older people have become familiar with and just accept it. you shouldn't.
the kids these days will show up to work, and a week later quit and bounce to another employer who offers more. i hear people bitch about it. but there is a lesson there. if a kid with no experience can find a better paying job, then so can people with the experience.
people get comfortable and don't like change. but complain about things. take action. it's better now than it's ever been. if you accept it, it is 100% your fault.

"And then one day you find
Ten years have got behind you
No one told you when to run
You missed the starting gun"
Pink Floyd: Time
Nobody cares about you more than you...

 

[BAMAboy18]

As an employer, it's worse than it's ever been, and not for the reason you've described. Everyone under about 40 is absolutely useless. Zero work ethic, zero motivation, ambition, desire to learn or be better, and everything is about them. They think the world revolves around their desires. We did a shit job raising this generation, (I participated with 4 between 26-31). We made completely ineffective humans. There are obviously exceptions, and I don't want to hear your opinion of your own kid, we get it, he's great. Oh, and if they are over 40, they are about 10% better. The American workforce has never been more pathetic.

Nor do they understand the pride that comes with a good work ethic and doing a good job...

 

[Redmanss]

Maybe, maybe not. They are making this claim after receiving massive backlash. Now they claim the people who complained were given paid time off to "reset"....and they are giving everyone 6 days of paid time off per year for stress relief. In India, yeah right.

In today's social media outrage society, never underestimate the desire and deceit of an attention whore looking to go viral.

 

[Expert684]

The babe newscaster “stressed” me out!

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

These so called employees have little clue to what stress actually is. If their minor work load stress them out then they should be fired and more capable hired to do the job.

 

[Ronws]

Why are they so stressed?

When they call me 18 times a day, all I do is cuss them like dogs, tell them that their ancestors were slaves, tell them that they are cannon fodder for the upcoming war against the Pakistan Muslims, I remind them that the Hindu kush mountains are named so because their ancestors were so dumb that they essentially lost an entire generation to a blizzard, and I tell them that they are the only nuclear country with a collective average IQ south of 100.

They usually hang up before I get that far, but sometimes they cry, and that's when I know I'm doing the lord's work.

Add in a few "maderchod" comments for gits and shiggles.

 

[Holliday]

I can duplicate most anything made of wood, but I’m not cheap.

$200k comes fast. A Northfield table saw, Martin 20” jointer, any planer larger than 15”, shaper with cutters, large belt sander, and you can hit $200k without breaking a sweat. Oh, bandsaw, dust collection, finishing room with equipment, finishes, reference books, and hand tools. That’s off the top of my head.

I was a cabinet maker/ furniture maker in my youth. Wood came in rough sawn and we took it from there. I watched my boss struggle to keep the lights on, with all the overhead.

I was a good apprentice and unwittingly surprised my mentor many times. I seemed to have a natural ability with a Maine work ethic. Having a good work ethic there, back then, was not uncommon if you wanted a job. It was pretty much the basic to keep 3 squares and a roof……

Times sure have changed.

 

[BCP]

I was a cabinet maker/ furniture maker in my youth. Wood came in rough sawn and we took it from there.

It's becoming a lost art. In Norcal I built stuff like this (walk in wine room using leftover material from his kitchen) but here in surburban arizona they hate it, they want that frameless painted euro factory crap:

 

[UKDslayer]

Problem is, people just haven't had a belly full yet.

Or a genuinely empty belly! Remember how much farmland Gates and China own in this country. We aren't out of the famine potential yet.

 

[brianf]

The reason people were better motivated in the past is war. The farther in time from war, the less motivation. Post WW2 people were excited and motivated to succeed. They had pride in their work. They were looking forward to retirement and a pension. They could afford cars and houses. Different times. Today, democrats have debased the work force to the point of no return. Thats what communism did in Eastern Europe. Thats why communism doesn’t work. That’s where we are today. Communism in a new wrapper.

I think your right but the “wrong” reasons.

War..the whole country was mobilized and most young men (the actual useful workforce of the economy) were either in the mil or defense mfg

That means they were trained with discipline and task orientation. 6 million men in the army came out and needed a job. That’s 6 million men who were trained to listen, complete, teamwork and had a decent grasp of common sense.

That makes a great work force

 

[lariat]

It's becoming a lost art. In Norcal I built stuff like this (walk in wine room using leftover material from his kitchen) but here in surburban arizona they hate it, they want that frameless painted euro factory crap:

View attachment 8569813

Why would any want to paint that?

I made my office desk out of old oilfield pipe and rough wood, the long desks and the back accent wall out of planed pallet wood and the conference room table out of 120 year old roof wood from a local building that was being renovated. Stain and linseed oil, no paint. It would have been a sin to cover it up. I don’t get the IKEA look, it’s sterile with no soul or warmth. Generally if we need something we make it in the shop out of scrap or extra material we have, all the way down to the coasters. People recognize immediately that it isn’t off the shelf. I train the new guys on the mill by having them make soap dishes for the bathrooms out of aluminum, paper towel holders out of wood, etc. It helps them understand machining while having early successes and making something that they can understand and relate to. And it looks very custom.

 

[BCP]

I think your right but the “wrong” reasons.

War..the whole country was mobilized and most young men (the actual useful workforce of the economy) were either in the mil or defense mfg

That means they were trained with discipline and task orientation. 6 million men in the army came out and needed a job. That’s 6 million men who were trained to listen, complete, teamwork and had a decent grasp of common sense.

That makes a great work force

We also had a pro-worker government that deported millions of temp workers/mexicans (operation wetback lol), didn't allow h1bs, companies had a healthy amount of male chauvinism so they fired all the women to make room for the returning men, the newly introduced GI bill allowed them to buy homes or get an education, the dollar was still strong, manufacturing was HUGE because we had a huge war machine etc.

Today we have a government that hates young men, college costs a gazillion dollars, huge inflation, open borders, feminism in the workplace. We aren't in Kansas anymore and it's certainly not 1949.

 

[BCP]

Why would any want to paint that?

A lot of the yuppies here in AZ think that wood with knots in it is "cheap wood".

I've done the planed pallet wood before, it can come out really well, another fun one is finding old redwood or cedar fencing material that people are getting rid of. Or beams from old decks/barns.

 

[Holliday]

A lot of the yuppies here in AZ think that wood with knots in it is "cheap wood".

I've done the planed pallet wood before, it can come out really well, another fun one is finding old redwood or cedar fencing material that people are getting rid of. Or beams from old decks/barns.

I used to deliberately put “wood defects” in my personal pieces. I felt it added character.

 

[micmacman]

regain some real estate by closing down all of the safe spaces

 

[gigamortis]

This thread makes for a tough read. People I have hired have spanned the spectrum. I have given paroled felons a chance, millennials, gen-X and boomers a job. I have found lazy self absorbed asshats in every generation. I have also found hard, impressive workers in each one too. The conclusion I have come to is that personal honor has left our society and those that have it have parents that have/had it, and every single one can tell you stories of the ass beatings they got and the work they were responsible for as a kid. The rest are something close to parasites. Luckily the rest of the group sniff it out with a quickness because the incomplete work falls on them and they are having none of it.

But the real problem I have discovered is that the failed character people have at work is also how they are in their personal lives. You wouldn’t want to be their friends or even loosely associate with them. Their character and moral compass is that bad.

This is why a lot of companies that do background checks also check credit scores. There is less risk on hiring an employee with a decent credit score.

 

[hero's machine]

Late 80s I had some shafts and pins I needed repaired and a set of dozer tracks I need pinned and bushed. On my way to the repair shop for the tracks I noticed a welding/fabrication sign hanging on a nice pipe pole. I decided to stop to get a quote for the shaft and pin repairs and was told to find the shop foreman. I was wearing grease stained jeans and boots and soon found the foreman. He screamed at me I was late, thru me a helmet and gloves and told me to lay down a stitch, seam and vertical welds and then cut a 2" chunk off the 1" plate.

When I finished he told me I was a little rough, but he'd give me a chance. I looked him and said I didn't need a job but was needing to get some work done. He thought I was f'n with him.

While unloading the shafts and pins, he said he couldn't find anyone who was capable or willing to work.

I can attest to the younger generation's work ethic, I have neither the time nor patience to put up with it. I can't fire them, but I can make their lives miserable when they find their assignment to me. I have a 2 day warm up period, after that, it usually results in them requesting a transfer to a different department or for someone to rein me in, rarely results in their job getting easier.

I started turning pins and bushings after school in high school. That was straight up hard work. I learned how to weld keeping up the press tooling.....which led to a long career of doing skilled trades.

Fast forward 30 years and I own my own shop with lathes, mill, surface grinder and everything needed to build a rifle from scratch as well as every welding process but sub arc.....I have 5 kids and not one of them is interested in learning how this makes us able to write a check for a car.

I'm not sure if I'm heartbroken, pissed or just confused....but it's disgusting.

 

[EddieNFL]

As an employer, it's worse than it's ever been, and not for the reason you've described. Everyone under about 40 is absolutely useless. Zero work ethic, zero motivation, ambition, desire to learn or be better, and everything is about them. They think the world revolves around their desires. We did a shit job raising this generation, (I participated with 4 between 26-31). We made completely ineffective humans. There are obviously exceptions, and I don't want to hear your opinion of your own kid, we get it, he's great. Oh, and if they are over 40, they are about 10% better. The American workforce has never been more pathetic.

We listened to your opinion of your kids.

 

[Bullfrog08]

Lot of bitching and complaining here.

When I have a younger person that's "not getting it", as his mentor I look internal at myself, rather than lay blame on him/her or the parents. I use this approach all the time and have created some very talented young men/women, and they don't leave. We pay them well and they work hard. We are a smaller firm so integrity is top priority here.

Shit company culture, breeds shit employees. Bitching about employees or the work pool accomplishes what? If you put the time in on training them, they will return that.

........but continue the bitching.

We've had a few that just didn't fit, and they eventually leave for greener pastures.

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

Lot of bitching and complaining here.

When I have a younger person that's "not getting it", as his mentor I look internal at myself, rather than lay blame on him/her or the parents. I use this approach all the time and have created some very talented young men/women, and they don't leave. We pay them well and they work hard. We are a smaller firm so integrity is top priority here.

Shit company culture, breeds shit employees. Bitching about employees or the work pool accomplishes what? If you put the time in on training them, they will return that.

........but continue the bitching.

We've had a few that just didn't fit, and they eventually leave for greener pastures.

What do you do?

Based on what you are describing, I doubt it is at all similar to what I do. Also, pretending you can correct 20+ years of a complete lack of parenting or discipline with a mentorship is ridiculous. I spent almost 12 years in the army, literally worked with every type of kid you can imagine, and every type of leader. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit. If someone lacks the will/desire/ability to learn, then they will go exactly as far as their own self-implemented governor plate will allow. I go through dozens a year, and there isn't anything I haven't tried. This generation of kids was raised by their cell phones, and where you and I spent our free time climbing trees and hunting and fishing, or playing sports, or chasing girls, these kids now spent theirs largely watching YouTube or senseless reality television. They aren't the same. We were taught to work hard, be innovative, be honest and speak well. They were taught that if you can make funny TikTok videos or show your butthole on only fans, you can be a millionaire like Jake Paul..

 

[Expert684]

I got a 47 year old that works for me. He is stressed. He’s a fucktard, pro union, wants to be a social butterfly. Just a pita, no body wants to talk to him. I need him, but maybe not for long.

 

[Yasherka]

Good times create weak mean, and all that.

I am 60 (a Boomer) and my twin sons are 12. I am an ogre with them and I explain why. They understand, and while not happy with the consequences when they fuck up, I see real improvement with them and have a lot of hope for their future.

I firmly believe hard times are on the way sooner rather than later thanks to all the "weak men"

 

[myronman3]

I started turning pins and bushings after school in high school. That was straight up hard work. I learned how to weld keeping up the press tooling.....which led to a long career of doing skilled trades.

Fast forward 30 years and I own my own shop with lathes, mill, surface grinder and everything needed to build a rifle from scratch as well as every welding process but sub arc.....I have 5 kids and not one of them is interested in learning how this makes us able to write a check for a car.

I'm not sure if I'm heartbroken, pissed or just confused....but it's disgusting.

my mind goes instantly to.......how did they get that way?

i understand that a parent's way is not necessarily their kids way....i have two sons that exemplify that. but both those kids are out there killing it their way. they follow the really important things i taught them, but it is their life and i am proud to say they are living it their way. both have a strong work ethic and have strong tendencies to watch over the people who work under them; often times taking more duty so their people don't have to do as much. leading from the front; setting an example.

What do you do?

Based on what you are describing, I doubt it is at all similar to what I do. Also, pretending you can correct 20+ years of a complete lack of parenting or discipline with a mentorship is ridiculous. I spent almost 12 years in the army, literally worked with every type of kid you can imagine, and every type of leader. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit. If someone lacks the will/desire/ability to learn, then they will go exactly as far as their own self-implemented governor plate will allow. I go through dozens a year, and there isn't anything I haven't tried. This generation of kids was raised by their cell phones, and where you and I spent our free time climbing trees and hunting and fishing, or playing sports, or chasing girls, these kids now spent theirs largely watching YouTube or senseless reality television. They aren't the same. We were taught to work hard, be innovative, be honest and speak well. They were taught that if you can make funny TikTok videos or show your butthole on only fans, you can be a millionaire like Jake Paul..

some people just don't have it and are not worth the effort. either no desire to be better, to be a valued team member, or earn their way. and there are people that will do the bare minimum, and they'll fuck over people given the chance. these are people i dismiss.

MOST the younglings i deal with are not this way. MOST of them respond very well to guidance and advice. when they know you are looking out for them and you care and respect them, you get respect back in spades. i don't want to take a management job as i love what i do. there are some good managers at work, but few turds. i had one of the turds fuck with me once. i told him, and everyone in the area, "keep fucking around, and i'll offer to do your job, and two other people's job for 1/3 of your combined salaries. because everyone here KNOWS i can do it 100x better. be thankful i don't want another career. but don't fucking push it." and i was given a WIDE berth, and those people became VERY nice to me after that.

leading people isn't hard. and ask yourself, why exactly are we here? to be greedy fucks, squirrel-hole money?

i am here to help people i meet. that's my goal.

 

[Bullfrog08]

What do you do?

Based on what you are describing, I doubt it is at all similar to what I do. Also, pretending you can correct 20+ years of a complete lack of parenting or discipline with a mentorship is ridiculous. I spent almost 12 years in the army, literally worked with every type of kid you can imagine, and every type of leader. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit. If someone lacks the will/desire/ability to learn, then they will go exactly as far as their own self-implemented governor plate will allow. I go through dozens a year, and there isn't anything I haven't tried. This generation of kids was raised by their cell phones, and where you and I spent our free time climbing trees and hunting and fishing, or playing sports, or chasing girls, these kids now spent theirs largely watching YouTube or senseless reality television. They aren't the same. We were taught to work hard, be innovative, be honest and speak well. They were taught that if you can make funny TikTok videos or show your butthole on only fans, you can be a millionaire like Jake Paul..

There is truth to that! All that come here have to be college degreed, so they already have some internal drive.

I blame a lot of issue with boys today, on single moms. I'd like to say that is result of the dad leaving, but it is the woman removing them. Kids raised by single father are different. Honestly, I actually blame all of society issues on women! Maybe the first interview question today should be......"were you raised by a single mother"?

 

[Im2bent]

There is truth to that! All that come here have to be college degreed, so they already have some internal drive.

I blame a lot of issue with boys today, on single moms. I'd like to say that is result of the dad leaving, but it is the woman removing them. Kids raised by single father are different. Honestly, I actually blame all of society issues on women! Maybe the first interview question today should be......"were you raised by a single mother"?

Yeah but what if they have 2 moms?

 

[UKDslayer]

As an employer, it's worse than it's ever been, and not for the reason you've described. Everyone under about 40 is absolutely useless. Zero work ethic, zero motivation, ambition, desire to learn or be better, and everything is about them. They think the world revolves around their desires. We did a shit job raising this generation, (I participated with 4 between 26-31). We made completely ineffective humans. There are obviously exceptions, and I don't want to hear your opinion of your own kid, we get it, he's great. Oh, and if they are over 40, they are about 10% better. The American workforce has never been more pathetic.

Just experienced this today. Entitled basement dweller throws tantrum, damages property, over boss 10 minutes late even though said employee is on the clock being paid for doing nothing.... I kind of get the tendency toward hiring illegals. The previous illegals used to be reliable, but Joe's are unreliable like millennials. Entitlement is a disease. Don't like it, but I get it.

 

[hero's machine]

my mind goes instantly to.......how did they get that way?

i understand that a parent's way is not necessarily their kids way....i have two sons that exemplify that. but both those kids are out there killing it their way. they follow the really important things i taught them, but it is their life and i am proud to say they are living it their way. both have a strong work ethic and have strong tendencies to watch over the people who work under them; often times taking more duty so their people don't have to do as much. leading from the front; setting an example.

some people just don't have it and are not worth the effort. either no desire to be better, to be a valued team member, or earn their way. and there are people that will do the bare minimum, and they'll fuck over people given the chance. these are people i dismiss.

MOST the younglings i deal with are not this way. MOST of them respond very well to guidance and advice. when they know you are looking out for them and you care and respect them, you get respect back in spades. i don't want to take a management job as i love what i do. there are some good managers at work, but few turds. i had one of the turds fuck with me once. i told him, and everyone in the area, "keep fucking around, and i'll offer to do your job, and two other people's job for 1/3 of your combined salaries. because everyone here KNOWS i can do it 100x better. be thankful i don't want another career. but don't fucking push it." and i was given a WIDE berth, and those people became VERY nice to me after that.

leading people isn't hard. and ask yourself, why exactly are we here? to be greedy fucks, squirrel-hole money?

i am here to help people i meet. that's my goal.

I adopted the two boys and they were pre programmed to not be like me, which is alright because they are both doing well....I would sure like to see them be better with their hands, but they are math and music minded. When I was a kid, you were an athlete or a band nerd. Apparently things are different now since my youngest son is the HS star athlete....and in band.

It's certainly different raising different dna.....but I am fortunate for the opportunity.

 

[Ronws]

In our business, the lazy ones end up weeding themselves out. Sometimes on the phone.

One time, a journeyman with about 8 or 10 years of commercial experience in electrical work called looking for a job. I told him we go into people's back yards and may dig up to 300 feet in a day at 18 inches deep. This one gringo (I could tell by the sound of his voice) asked, "Ya'll have laborers for that, right?"

I said, no, we are all the laborers. I have seen my boss dig a ditch and do a better job than the hired help.

Or, we get someone who starts and has a few easy days driving around and doing easy service call jobs. Then they get to a project that actually involves digging.

And you never see them again.

But the guys we have that stay just simply know that there is no trabajo fascile. All is difficult.

 

[nikerret]

As an employer, it's worse than it's ever been, and not for the reason you've described. Everyone under about 40 is absolutely useless. Zero work ethic, zero motivation, ambition, desire to learn or be better, and everything is about them. They think the world revolves around their desires. We did a shit job raising this generation, (I participated with 4 between 26-31). We made completely ineffective humans. There are obviously exceptions, and I don't want to hear your opinion of your own kid, we get it, he's great. Oh, and if they are over 40, they are about 10% better. The American workforce has never been more pathetic.

I’m 38 and running a department where I oversee around 60 people and I’m responsible for 16 buildings. Down the line, my next two highest management positions are 36 and 37 years old. Among the other 58 people, ages range from 19 to mid-70’s. The worst two on their phones? A 20 year old and a man in his late 60’s. I have successes and failures of all ages.

When I can, I try to help my staff, but I’m pretty busy trying to rebuild the department that was ignored by my predecessor. For the decade before I took over he was able to sit back and do the absolute minimum until he aged enough to collect retirement. Not all his fault, it sounds like he tried, but was shot down by his boss (who’s under investigation for financial crimes).

 

[LuckyDuck]

We haven’t had war during the last 30 years.

I adamantly disagree.

 

[LuckyDuck]

Please don’t compare that to what happened in WW2 where western civilization was nearly wiped out.

 

[LuckyDuck]

These so called employees have little clue to what stress actually is. If their minor work load stress them out then they should be fired and more capable hired to do the job.

I get where you're coming from but don't quite agree with the leap you made in that statement. There's opposite ends of extremes when it comes to opinions but surely entering a skilled trade and not being able to make ends meet or afford life necessities and even the most of basic of luxuries is a form of stress that you may be overlooking.

 

[LuckyDuck]

You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit.

Not going to lie- I haven't heard that expression before and am likely going to steal that from you and use it moving forward. I dig.

 

[Mike Casselton]

I get where you're coming from but don't quite agree with the leap you made in that statement. There's opposite ends of extremes when it comes to opinions but surely entering a skilled trade and not being able to make ends meet or afford life necessities and even the most of basic of luxuries is a form of stress that you may be overlooking.

That's life stress.

The thread is about JOB Stress.

 

[LuckyDuck]

That's life stress.

The thread is about JOB Stress.

You're making a misguided distinction by separating the two and taking the position that they are not one and the same. Nobody ever had their personal lives falling apart and think to themselves "well at least I don't have stress at work" or vice versa.

 

[Mike Casselton]

It's not that difficult to separate life and work.

 

[lariat]

It's not that difficult to separate life and work.

Ever been self employed?

 

[LuckyDuck]

It's not that difficult to separate life and work.

I don't ask this to be rude or a general jackass but are you over the age of 60 by chance? You say that it's not difficult to separate life and work (and you are of course more than welcome to your opinion) but for reasons best discussed in a different conversation, you do grasp that many folks are seriously struggling right now to make ends meet even if they did the 'right' thing and were wise watching their spending, got an education, what have you?

I find that using math illustrations typically don't go over well because they require the other party to have both an open mind as the attention span/interest to process it but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and try anyway.

Let's say we have a 30 year old accountant that is 100% debt free and they've collected the initials/certifications and have a few years under their belt and are pulling in a $100K (keeps the numbers easy) salary which, while it doesn't go nearly as far as it used to, it's still in the upper quartile of earnings (and that's important to understand we need to look at this from a macro level)

As I'm sure you're aware, our tax system is progressive so their effective Federal Tax rate is likely about 25%. So they're down to $75K off the bat. Then Social Security is going to take 6.2%, again off of the gross income but let's just call it 6% to make things easy. so we're now down to $69K net. Medicare is.. 2.9% (let's call it 3% since we've still got .1% leeway) so we're now down to $66K. But wait there's more.

We still need to factor in State & local income taxes... of course this varies by location/locality. You're more than welcome to argue with me but let's be conservative and just say the State & Local taxes add up to... 4%. So in our example we're now down to... what is it, $62K?

There's still more payroll taxes of course but let's just stop those deductions there for the sake of argument. So far we've effectively lost 38% of our income and are left with $62K which works out to... say $5K a month. Notice that there's still a few more income taxes we just chose to ignore AND that's not accounting for frivolous deductions for things like paying for health insurance or god forbid contributing to their IRA/401K retirement accounts but again for the sake of simplicity, here's our well educated/by all other measures high earning employee yielding $5k (again with no retirement savings or health insurance to speak of, just what's left after the major payroll taxes come in.

I don't know what you'd consider to be a reasonable savings rate, I'd say around the 10-15% ballpark but I'll go crazy here and say why not- let's say they're absolute studs and can save 25% (even though they're saving for a house and the average rent is... well we're talking nationally so we'll call it $1,500 which is... 30% of their take home so that's... 18K per year (we're down to $44K) and $15.5K going to savings each year because they're a super stud at saving and are actually debt free so we're now at... $28.5K or $2.3K a month to live off of or.. what $550 a week?

So that's $550 a week/less than $80 a day that they have to 'play' with to pay for their insurance, their utilities, their groceries, put gas in their car, buy a hooker or two for a BJ. AND this is without a single cent going to their retirement, health insurance, blow, an emergency fund or putting money towards their next car etc. Ya know, stupid redneck type of things.

BUT our fella is a stud and is saving 25% or $15.5K so they're actually killing it and doing better both in income and financial smarts than the vast majority of the nation. Only problem is the average cost of a home is...$420k. Ignoring the 20% recommendation and let's just say they save up a 10% downpayment towards a house (ignoring rent increases along with pesky things like inflation on all the other goods they actually have to buy... That's about 3 years to put towards a downpayment, of course the banks want to see some reserves so we'll call that an additional 2 years (up to five now).

But our 'little engine that could' has his $42K after giving up every possible luxury for a half decade. Has zero health insurance (hopefully they didn't have anything happen to them during this timeframe), zero retirement savings, zero vacations or wasteful spending, and a $420K mortgage, with $42K down, they can sign up for a 30 year loan @ 6.6% which is... $2.4K a month (and this is important NOT counting property tax or homeowner insurance which likely would be required if carrying a mortgage). So after all that sacrificing and saving and beating the odds and settling for an 'average' house despite the above average salary and savings effort well over 50% of what's left of their high income is now going towards the most average of houses. And we didn't factor in other things in this equation such as... oh say moving expenses, furniture purchases, a silly little thing called closing costs... so yeah it's actually a bit more dire AND keep in mind this is a professional accountant with years of experience and certifications. And we've ignored quite a number of other things that'd drastically shift the timeline

Let's hope they don't have any children because that's easily another $300 a week/$1,200 a month for bottom level daycare costs (just so they can go to work to continue to participate in this rat race). Even though retirement savings are exponentially more important in the early years, maybe/just maybe, they'll be able to start putting a few bucks away while they're middle-aged and god forbid they have to see a DR for the next 20 years. If they do, that'd make them pussies anyway and unworthy of our company.

Now none of the economics here is your or my fault, nor is it the fault of present company either. But that's the reality that we're in at the moment, that's why people are angry and giving up (let's be honest, being on the 'dole' is a lot more attractive and faster than working towards this end result). But hey, maybe these folks should just pull themselves up by their proverbial bootstraps and stop being lazy am I right? The other thing to note in this story is we're talking the top quartile of incomes... what about the 75% of the population (remember I said earlier it's important to keep a macro focus) making far less than $100K?

Again, I'm not trying to be a jerk towards you by any means, rather I'm just trying to elaborate my position and why I so strongly disagree with you. I'll include a generally accepted diagram called Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs and do so to illustrate that until the bottom two rungs are able to be met, there is no personal life outside of work. The catch-22 is many, and I do mean many of our countrymen are struggling to get those basic needs met each month and it's my position that life and work are intimately connected for the vast majority of Americans.

-LD

​

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

You are hired to perform a task in exchange for money. If you can not perform the task, for whatever reason, you are not fulfilling your end of the deal. Your failure has an effect on the bottom line. The bottom line is what keeps the doors open for you to have a job.
It's cut and dry. It ain't hard to understand.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Ever been self employed?

Again, the article wasn't about self employment.




To answer your question, hell no. I know how much business ownership affects people vs being an employee. HUGE difference.

 

[Mike Casselton]

I don't ask this to be rude or a general jackass but are you over the age of 60 by chance? You say that it's not difficult to separate life and work (and you are of course more than welcome to your opinion) but for reasons best discussed in a different conversation, you do grasp that many folks are seriously struggling right now to make ends meet even if they did the 'right' thing and were wise watching their spending, got an education, what have you?

I find that using math illustrations typically don't go over well because they require the other party to have both an open mind as the attention span/interest to process it but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and try anyway.

Let's say we have a 30 year old accountant that is 100% debt free and they've collected the initials/certifications and have a few years under their belt and are pulling in a $100K (keeps the numbers easy) salary which, while it doesn't go nearly as far as it used to, it's still in the upper quartile of earnings (and that's important to understand we need to look at this from a macro level)

As I'm sure you're aware, our tax system is progressive so their effective Federal Tax rate is likely about 25%. So they're down to $75K off the bat. Then Social Security is going to take 6.2%, again off of the gross income but let's just call it 6% to make things easy. so we're now down to $69K net. Medicare is.. 2.9% (let's call it 3% since we've still got .1% leeway) so we're now down to $66K. But wait there's more.

We still need to factor in State & local income taxes... of course this varies by location/locality. You're more than welcome to argue with me but let's be conservative and just say the State & Local taxes add up to... 4%. So in our example we're now down to... what is it, $62K?

There's still more payroll taxes of course but let's just stop those deductions there for the sake of argument. So far we've effectively lost 38% of our income and are left with $62K which works out to... say $5K a month. Notice that there's still a few more income taxes we just chose to ignore AND that's not accounting for frivolous deductions for things like paying for health insurance or god forbid contributing to their IRA/401K retirement accounts but again for the sake of simplicity, here's our well educated/by all other measures high earning employee yielding $5k (again with no retirement savings or health insurance to speak of, just what's left after the major payroll taxes come in.

I don't know what you'd consider to be a reasonable savings rate, I'd say around the 10-15% ballpark but I'll go crazy here and say why not- let's say they're absolute studs and can save 25% (even though they're saving for a house and the average rent is... well we're talking nationally so we'll call it $1,500 which is... 30% of their take home so that's... 18K per year (we're down to $44K) and $15.5K going to savings each year because they're a super stud at saving and are actually debt free so we're now at... $28.5K or $2.3K a month to live off of or.. what $550 a week?

So that's $550 a week/less than $80 a day that they have to 'play' with to pay for their insurance, their utilities, their groceries, put gas in their car, buy a hooker or two for a BJ. AND this is without a single cent going to their retirement, health insurance, blow, an emergency fund or putting money towards their next car etc. Ya know, stupid redneck type of things.

BUT our fella is a stud and is saving 25% or $15.5K so they're actually killing it and doing better both in income and financial smarts than the vast majority of the nation. Only problem is the average cost of a home is...$420k. Ignoring the 20% recommendation and let's just say they save up a 10% downpayment towards a house (ignoring rent increases along with pesky things like inflation on all the other goods they actually have to buy... That's about 3 years to put towards a downpayment, of course the banks want to see some reserves so we'll call that an additional 2 years (up to five now).

But our 'little engine that could' has his $42K after giving up every possible luxury for a half decade. Has zero health insurance (hopefully they didn't have anything happen to them during this timeframe), zero retirement savings, zero vacations or wasteful spending, and a $420K mortgage, with $42K down, they can sign up for a 30 year loan @ 6.6% which is... $2.4K a month (and this is important NOT counting property tax or homeowner insurance which likely would be required if carrying a mortgage). So after all that sacrificing and saving and beating the odds and settling for an 'average' house despite the above average salary and savings effort well over 50% of what's left of their high income is now going towards the most average of houses. And we didn't factor in other things in this equation such as... oh say moving expenses, furniture purchases, a silly little thing called closing costs... so yeah it's actually a bit more dire AND keep in mind this is a professional accountant with years of experience and certifications. And we've ignored quite a number of other things that'd drastically shift the timeline

Let's hope they don't have any children because that's easily another $300 a week/$1,200 a month for bottom level daycare costs (just so they can go to work to continue to participate in this rat race). Even though retirement savings are exponentially more important in the early years, maybe/just maybe, they'll be able to start putting a few bucks away while they're middle-aged and god forbid they have to see a DR for the next 20 years. If they do, that'd make them pussies anyway and unworthy of our company.

Now none of the economics here is your or my fault, nor is it the fault of present company either. But that's the reality that we're in at the moment, that's why people are angry and giving up (let's be honest, being on the 'dole' is a lot more attractive and faster than working towards this end result). But hey, maybe these folks should just pull themselves up by their proverbial bootstraps and stop being lazy am I right? The other thing to note in this story is we're talking the top quartile of incomes... what about the 75% of the population (remember I said earlier it's important to keep a macro focus) making far less than $100K?

Again, I'm not trying to be a jerk towards you by any means, rather I'm just trying to elaborate my position and why I so strongly disagree with you. I'll include a generally accepted diagram called Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs and do so to illustrate that until the bottom two rungs are able to be met, there is no personal life outside of work. The catch-22 is many, and I do mean many of our countrymen are struggling to get those basic needs met each month and it's my position that life and work are intimately connected for the vast majority of Americans.

-LD

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*SOURCE: Me- I'm the fellow who for years put away in excess of 25% of my net income towards a house but also contributed to my retirement (I couldn't see how I could afford not to understand how compound interest worked) and also saved an emergency fund, car fund, wedding fund, paid for health insurance etc. Thankfully I did because I had a lot of life thrown at me- a (now) wife that went through two layoffs I was supporting, a hospitalization for me, a furlough for me, a totaled car, and god only knows how much else. Not counting the constant and aggressive goal post moving on us on what we needed to afford a house, the pandemic and rampant inflation that followed, etc- we finally got into our first house this year and went on a real (but modest) vacation. Prior to that I lived in an apartment you wouldn't accept, I had drug dealers out back, had someone OD on my stoop, had the neighbor two apartments down OD at least 3x requiring an ambulance, at least twice had someone high on drugs get into an argument with a woodpile across from my apartment (no I'm not making that up) and one time couldn't even get into my apartment after work because the local and state police had cordon off that area because the building adjacent to ours had a hostage situation while my wife was sleeping in the living room. So (respectfully) I don't feel like I have a single thing to apologize for/a sacrifice I haven't made to get to this point and for the life of me, I don't see how one can say life & work are separate unless they have a robust safety net either personally built or by family/friends that were willing to act as that proxy.

​

TLDR.


I did read the first paragraph though.


It was hard to make ends meet when I was younger too. Try doing it on uncle sams old pay scale.
We struggled too.
We didn't bring that shit to work.
We didn't bring work home.