Weapon mounted LRF
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RAPTAR S/ES Optics Planet
www.opticsplanet.com
Put in cart, call on phone, say "I will buy today if you approve 10% discount" ... they will do it (that's the business they're in). That will take the price to $6,900.
Lead time is officially 60d, I got mine in 45d. These are "make to order" ...
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www.opticsplanet.com
Put in cart, call on phone, say "I will buy today if you approve 10% discount" ... they will do it (that's the business they're in). That will take the price to $6,900.
Lead time is officially 60d, I got mine in 45d. These are "make to order" ...
It’s absolute garbage that in the year 2020 that it takes an obscene amount of money to get a rifle mounted LRF. Obscene.
You should capitalize on the obvious hole in the market and make an affordable rifle mounted LRF. It’s obviously because these other company’s hate money, and not that it’s not cost effective or doesn’t have the market.
People are paying 1000 for a very heavy Radius and 3000-5000 for a lightweight version (RAPTAR). The market is there. It’s not huge (partly because of the prohibitively heavy and prohibitively expensive options currency available).
When someone modifies a Leica CRF display and makes it adjustable to aim at the point of aim, (Or something similar) and sells it for 600 bucks (more for ballistics integrated), they will do very well.
The market has already been tested (and actually created) by two other companies.
When someone modifies a Leica CRF display and makes it adjustable to aim at the point of aim, (Or something similar) and sells it for 600 bucks (more for ballistics integrated), they will do very well.
The market has already been tested (and actually created) by two other companies.
The market isn’t there. Otherwise the radius would still be in production. It was discontinued because they tested the market and no one bought it.
A few people here and there buying a radius isn’t a market.
And the reason there isn’t a light weight radius like unit is because it’s not cost effective. Which is also why the radius was heavy.
There is a market For a lighter weight unit at a reasonable price. That’s proven beyond any debate by people paying above retail for a heavy one or paying thousands for a light one. Period.
Like I said, these companies created the demand. The Radius (even with its flaws) was marketed to the wrong crowd. It was marketed to long distance shooters and hardly anyone realized how much more necessary it was for night shooting than day shooting. It was discontinued just as it’s true value was being discovered.
add in the MASSIVE boom in night shooting due to the hog hunting industry and its associated YouTube attraction as well as affordable thermal, and the market is MORE than there... for a reasonably priced product at a reasonable weight.
This is NOT a difficult task in 2020 for at least a handful of companies. By the way, screenshot this thread. Within 5 years there will be a successful product with good profit from sales that meets these criteria. The only question is when, and which company will reap the rewards.
It’s free market 101. If people will pay 1000 for a heavy one, more people will pay 600 for a light one, and if scores of people will even pay 3000-5000 for a light one then FAR more people will happily pay 600.
Like I said, these companies created the demand. The Radius (even with its flaws) was marketed to the wrong crowd. It was marketed to long distance shooters and hardly anyone realized how much more necessary it was for night shooting than day shooting. It was discontinued just as it’s true value was being discovered.
add in the MASSIVE boom in night shooting due to the hog hunting industry and its associated YouTube attraction as well as affordable thermal, and the market is MORE than there... for a reasonably priced product at a reasonable weight.
This is NOT a difficult task in 2020 for at least a handful of companies. By the way, screenshot this thread. Within 5 years there will be a successful product with good profit from sales that meets these criteria. The only question is when, and which company will reap the rewards.
It’s free market 101. If people will pay 1000 for a heavy one, more people will pay 600 for a light one, and if scores of people will even pay 3000-5000 for a light one then FAR more people will happily pay 600.
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So your theory is companies hate money.
Of course in 5 years there will be. Because the cost to make a lighter radius will be much lower.
If that’s what you got out of what I’ve said this isn’t something anyone will be able to explain to you.
Hi,
Currently there are only about 6 laser/electro-optics companies in the world that could actually pull off the manufacturing of a "cheap" weapon mounted LRF but each one of them run into the same problem(s).
1. "CHEAP" Lightweight housing is not sufficient to handle rifle recoil. It jars the laser units too much...That is pretty much BOTTOM LINE!!
2. There is not large enough market to facilitate the reallocation of machine and manhours from their current HIGH DOLLAR products that already have 4+ month leadtimes.
3. Too many "custom" product enthusiast....IF company makes product person A wants then person B wants to use different batteries. IF company makes product person C wants then person D wants additional feature....etc etc. To the point even IF they could make the product they see no reason to cause such headache to company because company is already doing well in/with what it is already doing.
Sincerely,
Theis
Currently there are only about 6 laser/electro-optics companies in the world that could actually pull off the manufacturing of a "cheap" weapon mounted LRF but each one of them run into the same problem(s).
1. "CHEAP" Lightweight housing is not sufficient to handle rifle recoil. It jars the laser units too much...That is pretty much BOTTOM LINE!!
2. There is not large enough market to facilitate the reallocation of machine and manhours from their current HIGH DOLLAR products that already have 4+ month leadtimes.
3. Too many "custom" product enthusiast....IF company makes product person A wants then person B wants to use different batteries. IF company makes product person C wants then person D wants additional feature....etc etc. To the point even IF they could make the product they see no reason to cause such headache to company because company is already doing well in/with what it is already doing.
Sincerely,
Theis
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Can you explain point #1 in light of the current existence of a light weight weapon mounted LRF that holds up to rifle recoil (RAPTAR)?
Point #2 is likely accurate right now but the same could be said for ANY new product during a buying panic, but that will change like it does during the market glut that follows every buying panic.
Point #3 is true of literary every new product ever created by any company... ever. And yet companies produce new product every year anyway. So yes, I’m sure your absolutely correct that some won’t be satisfied, but that isn’t stopping several million new products from reaching the market each year and need not stop this one.
Point #2 is likely accurate right now but the same could be said for ANY new product during a buying panic, but that will change like it does during the market glut that follows every buying panic.
Point #3 is true of literary every new product ever created by any company... ever. And yet companies produce new product every year anyway. So yes, I’m sure your absolutely correct that some won’t be satisfied, but that isn’t stopping several million new products from reaching the market each year and need not stop this one.
Hi,
Point 1....so the RAPTAR already is/does what the OP is discussing?
Why even make the thread then?
Point 2...companies do not bank machines and manhours based on panic buying. The companies that can make this product are not affected by panic purchasing. They have annual POs from Gov entities, and dealers.
Point 3...Yet it has stopped this desire for cheap weapon mounted LRF,
Sincerely,
Theis
Point 1....so the RAPTAR already is/does what the OP is discussing?
Why even make the thread then?
Point 2...companies do not bank machines and manhours based on panic buying. The companies that can make this product are not affected by panic purchasing. They have annual POs from Gov entities, and dealers.
Point 3...Yet it has stopped this desire for cheap weapon mounted LRF,
Sincerely,
Theis
1. If you read the first 4 posts you’ll understand the original question, the response, and the reason this thread has taken on a somewhat different direction.
2. The Radius was produced by a silencer company. A company that is definitely affected by panic buying. Vortex has also proven capable of producing products with similar capabilities (more actually). Also a company significantly affected by panic buying.
3. Nothing has “stopped this desire for a cheap weapon mounted LRF”. Lots of us want them. Care to explain what you meant by that?
This really isn’t rocket science. A Leica CRF already handles 5.56mm recoil (yep, tried it).
Add a picatinny Mount with windage and elevation adjustment and a magnifying lense on the back to read the range and you’d have a functional product.
Of course, I’d like more refinement than that but that shows how little we’re asking.
2. The Radius was produced by a silencer company. A company that is definitely affected by panic buying. Vortex has also proven capable of producing products with similar capabilities (more actually). Also a company significantly affected by panic buying.
3. Nothing has “stopped this desire for a cheap weapon mounted LRF”. Lots of us want them. Care to explain what you meant by that?
This really isn’t rocket science. A Leica CRF already handles 5.56mm recoil (yep, tried it).
Add a picatinny Mount with windage and elevation adjustment and a magnifying lense on the back to read the range and you’d have a functional product.
Of course, I’d like more refinement than that but that shows how little we’re asking.
Everyone wants 20 cent/gallon gas too.
Demand does not equal a market. Market requires the ability to produce the product successfully.
A company would have to source materials and dedicate machines to sell a few thousand units at thin margins. This doesn’t make sense when the companies who have the ability to do this are doing fine and selling more higher end units.
Niche markets always think they are larger than they are. 5-10 years down the road, things will be cheaper to make and it will likely be revisited.
Demand does not equal a market. Market requires the ability to produce the product successfully.
A company would have to source materials and dedicate machines to sell a few thousand units at thin margins. This doesn’t make sense when the companies who have the ability to do this are doing fine and selling more higher end units.
Niche markets always think they are larger than they are. 5-10 years down the road, things will be cheaper to make and it will likely be revisited.
What's interesting is that you have thermal weapon sights that have onboard LRF capability.
While it looks to be a niche market imo, there is still some capacity to grow it if marketed correctly to say hunters who don't want to miss that once in a life time shot at a big bull elk etc etc etc etc
While it looks to be a niche market imo, there is still some capacity to grow it if marketed correctly to say hunters who don't want to miss that once in a life time shot at a big bull elk etc etc etc etc
Now you’re adding in they are also selling an optic/sight for quite a bit more than “cheap.”
Then it makes sense to combine technology and manufacturing. This is different than dedicating to a single and cheap lrf.
Also, you don’t market cheaper things for once in a lifetime opportunities. That’s more of a higher end marketing strategy.
Cheap is marketed to the recreational consumer that hunts a fair amount, but doesn’t have much expendable income.
Hi,
So the smallest of the laser/electro-optics companies that could pull this off has made right over 20 million USD this year with their existing product line.
Please forecast and provide the analytics of your forecast that would make it beneficial for them to produce a $500 product.
Take into consideration they are already running 24/7 so that means they would need to bring in additional machines and personnel to operate.
Just how many "cheap" weapons mounted LRF need to be sold annually to pay for an additional 400k in machines and 200k in manhours. Not including the consumables and vendor expenses.
Sincerely,
Theis
So the smallest of the laser/electro-optics companies that could pull this off has made right over 20 million USD this year with their existing product line.
Please forecast and provide the analytics of your forecast that would make it beneficial for them to produce a $500 product.
Take into consideration they are already running 24/7 so that means they would need to bring in additional machines and personnel to operate.
Just how many "cheap" weapons mounted LRF need to be sold annually to pay for an additional 400k in machines and 200k in manhours. Not including the consumables and vendor expenses.
Sincerely,
Theis
I’m not sure anybody here has asked for “cheap”. Asking for noticeably cheaper than $5000 isn’t remotely the same thing as asking for “cheap”.
Most of the guys who want this already have night vision or thermal so by definition we’re really not talking about the “cheap” seasonal/recreational hunter here. (Myself for example, I’ve purchased two Radius and two RAPTARs) not “cheap” by anybody’s definition.
and it’s already been established that a SILENCER company can pull this off so can we stop pretending this is so incredibly impossible?
Most of the guys who want this already have night vision or thermal so by definition we’re really not talking about the “cheap” seasonal/recreational hunter here. (Myself for example, I’ve purchased two Radius and two RAPTARs) not “cheap” by anybody’s definition.
and it’s already been established that a SILENCER company can pull this off so can we stop pretending this is so incredibly impossible?
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Cheap is a relative term!
Figuring out what the shooting community wants feeds into how you build your marketing and your product.
People are going to develop new products/technologies even if back logged for specific systems, unless they want to become irrelevant. Evolution is hard sometimes.
Figuring out what the shooting community wants feeds into how you build your marketing and your product.
People are going to develop new products/technologies even if back logged for specific systems, unless they want to become irrelevant. Evolution is hard sometimes.
Wilcox is coming out with a smaller unit that doesn't have IR (their High Powered IR still sucks for those that used these for a living).
Should be just a LRF with Ballistic Solver. Called the MRF...
Should be just a LRF with Ballistic Solver. Called the MRF...
I see a ton of back and forth but what is missing from the OP are specs.
Battery type (integral, removable, rechargeable)
expected battery life
Environmental conditions effect on beam dispersion
Beam wavelength
Bluetooth / wireless connectivity
Size l,w,h
Weight
Mounting options
Zero adjustments on base or or unit
Repeatability of zero tolerance
Max Distance
Target size at max distance
Target reflectivity at max distance
the list goes on
it’s easy to say The market wants a lot for not much, and of course if that holds true there might be a market.
if cheap and almost as good were the only market factors car companies would never sell a new car because the same model 2 years older is 50% the price...yet they sell new cars every day.
I have a radius as well.
I personally have on going projects with current OEM optics and integration of off the shelf tech.
Just the initial write up /white paper from the integration company is 9k. That is not even their feasibility study of approx 80k. So I could be in for 90-100k just in preliminary RD...and it might not work. Still not having a unit in hand.
if the product works it’s not going to cost 500$, the ROI will be in decades not years.
Is there a market yes
is there a price point I need to hit, yes
If I couldn’t afford it would I be willing to mortgage my home...no
it’s all about $, and how long it takes to make it back
Example: the dems outlaw night shooting tomorrow...night vision industry and all the RD money is gone
Battery type (integral, removable, rechargeable)
expected battery life
Environmental conditions effect on beam dispersion
Beam wavelength
Bluetooth / wireless connectivity
Size l,w,h
Weight
Mounting options
Zero adjustments on base or or unit
Repeatability of zero tolerance
Max Distance
Target size at max distance
Target reflectivity at max distance
the list goes on
it’s easy to say The market wants a lot for not much, and of course if that holds true there might be a market.
if cheap and almost as good were the only market factors car companies would never sell a new car because the same model 2 years older is 50% the price...yet they sell new cars every day.
I have a radius as well.
I personally have on going projects with current OEM optics and integration of off the shelf tech.
Just the initial write up /white paper from the integration company is 9k. That is not even their feasibility study of approx 80k. So I could be in for 90-100k just in preliminary RD...and it might not work. Still not having a unit in hand.
if the product works it’s not going to cost 500$, the ROI will be in decades not years.
Is there a market yes
is there a price point I need to hit, yes
If I couldn’t afford it would I be willing to mortgage my home...no
it’s all about $, and how long it takes to make it back
Example: the dems outlaw night shooting tomorrow...night vision industry and all the RD money is gone
The other thing is not everyone wants to point a gun at something to range it. For various reasons.
The market for these is very small and its a niche capability that those who think they need it, will pay for.
Now an integrated sight, LRF and ballistic comp that may be the future. Having a feature where when you just touch the trigger (Electro), it ranges and gives you a ballistic solution would be tits. Then you can either take the shot or range something else without having to dick with anything.
Tracking point is probally the closest thing we have and its a piece of shit and still $20K.
The market for these is very small and its a niche capability that those who think they need it, will pay for.
Now an integrated sight, LRF and ballistic comp that may be the future. Having a feature where when you just touch the trigger (Electro), it ranges and gives you a ballistic solution would be tits. Then you can either take the shot or range something else without having to dick with anything.
Tracking point is probally the closest thing we have and its a piece of shit and still $20K.
Hi,
See @brianf first post above. That is already in discussion and feasibility studies
Sincerely,
Theis
Isint Vortex working on something like this? I remember seeing leaked photos on some other website like a year ago.
Hell yes. Spotting, ranging, searching, Nystagmus test (!), etc... the distinction between observing and engaging is no joke.
Wig did. Then some people started making false statements. Then some people corrected them. Then (predictably) not everyone was happy about that.
and yes, I intentionally left this open for either side to interpret as desired
and yes, I intentionally left this open for either side to interpret as desired
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These are the posts that captivate me. I read past any acrimony and marvel the magical merchandise. Makes me feel--sincerely--so good to know there's people out there who, obviously young, are into this stuff as I would be had these possibilities existed when I was young. But, I'm still "that guy" at 75! And every day I learn how much I don't know, still.
I decided I wanted a rifle mounted LRF a couple of years ago so I made a mount for my Leica 1600. I really like having the LRF next to my scope, it is very easy to use, and incredably steady, making long ranging quick and easy. This spring I upgraded to a 3500 that fit in the same mount. I also upgraded my Kestrel to a 5700X, they Bluetooth to each other and give me exactly what I wanted. I think weapon mounted LRF'S are the way to go. Integrating the LRF into the optics is the ultimate solution, and several manufacturers are working on that. it would be nice to have more options, but I don't think there are enough people willing to pay the price to make that happen very soon. For now this setup does work for me. The Kestrel can be vane mounted by itself, or loose, but must be kept in Bluetooth range. Both The Leica and Kestrel display the firing solution. A Hud could be used as well. Just thought I'd share this with everyone after reading the thread.
I'm not sure of all the reasons, but ranging while using nightvision or thermal scopes would be my guess.
Yes, DFOOSKING’s observations are a perfect example of why these aren’t widespread in use and in availability. The only weapon mounted LRF ever marketed to civilians (as a stand alone LRF) was marketed to a small niche within the precision (day) shooting community. Most people have no idea why they might want one of these or how they might employ it.
Marketing is often the determining factor in product success more even than the product, and in this case, the product was discontinued before the manufacture realized who their real audience should have been.
At least 7 companies have already produced weapon mounted LRF: WILCOX, SWR (not even an optics company), Pulsar, Bushnell, L3, Vortex, and a European thermal company, so it’s quite doable and based on most of their pricing the economics aren’t hard.
Several of those are very high quality, a few are light weight, and a few are much cheaper than $5000, so to expect a reasonable intersection of those attributes in the very near future is well within reason.
In the mean time I’m stuck adding one RAPTAR per group buy
Marketing is often the determining factor in product success more even than the product, and in this case, the product was discontinued before the manufacture realized who their real audience should have been.
At least 7 companies have already produced weapon mounted LRF: WILCOX, SWR (not even an optics company), Pulsar, Bushnell, L3, Vortex, and a European thermal company, so it’s quite doable and based on most of their pricing the economics aren’t hard.
Several of those are very high quality, a few are light weight, and a few are much cheaper than $5000, so to expect a reasonable intersection of those attributes in the very near future is well within reason.
In the mean time I’m stuck adding one RAPTAR per group buy
For devices where originally the tech is developed for gov/mil use, do the gov contracts prohibit selling devices (or components) for lower price into e.g. the hog hunters market?
Optics | Gunwerks
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EU - Ballistic Laserscope III LaserScope 4-16x50mm | Burris Optics
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They may not, but the risk of the items being used in a criminal act and blowback against the company causing their fat revenue stream to dry up is a risk they’re unwilling to take. Beyond that there’s the issue of laser class, but I’m not sure how that applies to non visible lasers.
The mount I made for my Leica clamps on the pic rail so I can hand hold or clap it on any thing with a rail. It was zeroed to my rifle and repeats fairly well, but when it is on the rifle I usually just laze the target by moving slightly to the LRF'S reticle, it works so nice compared to using it hand held.
Hi,
Yes and No...It all depends on the contractual agreement(s). But not in regards to selling price but rather in regards to even being allowed to sell that product to consumers at all.
Typically IF any of the product RDT&E were done with .gov funds then most of the time the answer to the question is absolutely YES.
Typically IF any of the technology advancements were from .gov tech knowledge transfer/license then most of the time the answer to the question is absolutely YES.
Typically IF abc company produces a COTS item and it happens to get purchased for .gov use then most of the time the answer to the question is NO.
THEN we can get into GSA pricing models, which in layman's terms a product cannot be publicly offered cheaper to consumers than the GSA pricing structures. The complication with that is GSA pricing is not contract pricing, etc etc.
Sincerely,
Theis
Thermal hunting elk?
Are you talking about the wee hours of darkness or maybe first/last legal shooting light?
What is the silver cap on your lieca battery hold down screw??
Did you make an extended battery cap to fit a cr123?
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