Night Vision Weapon Mounted Options, Advice Needed

[Crews]

So I do a whole lot of night hog hunting up on our lease. The two guys I hunt with both have ReapIR units. We mount them on SBR's and ride around at night. The image quality and detection capability with these units is just unreal. There's a lot of cows at our place, so we HAVE to have a good clear image for positive ID before the trigger is pulled. I don't know much about this equipment, but I have used several other thermal devices that have "poorer" resolution. Since I've obviously seen the best money can buy, nothing else seems good enough for real positive ID.

I get REALLY tired of having to hold my rifle up and look for stuff. Plus I don't like borrowing other people's equipment all the time. I am considering purchasing a dedicated weapon mounted optic of my own. Plan is to get something sufficient to leave on my gun for shooting, and keep using the borrowed ReapIR for scanning (or let someone else use it.) Down the road I can continue to save and get a high resolution thermal hand held scanner.

So my question is this: for a $2-$3k max budget, am I better off getting a thermal or NV weapon mounted optic? Smaller footprint would be nice. I use an Aimpoint micro right now. Not worried about using it to move. Assuming there is already a layer of confidence in positive ID by the ReapIR, I just need to make sure I'm not hitting a cow, max distance 200 yards. I know for a FACT that quality thermal is a good way to scan and ID targets, but I've never used NV so I"m not sure if it's a better option for my needs since I can't afford a Trijicon like my friends have.

 

[Crews]

Also, I will admit that the aiming laser thing seems cool to me, but I have no idea if I actually need it or how it works.

 

[wigwamitus]

For $2 to $3k you will still be hard pressed to get a head mounted PVS-14 and a rifle/carbine mounted laser. I'd generally suggest budgeting $5k for that. But I will try to layout the cheapest solution I think will work ... and I use pretty much this sort of solution as a "minimalist" solution, etc. even though I run a COTI thermal overlay on the 14.

The 14 on head and laser on carbine is a good "walking and stalking" solution ... especially in open fields. You might not be able to see critters along the tree lines or in the woods, but moon shadows not withstanding, you should be able to see a hog in the open.

Here are my current two "walking and stalking" setups ...

A 14 on one eye and a thermal on the other. And in one case a COTI thermal overlay on the 14. These setups are light and emphasize mobility over shooting distance. Like moving across fences or up and down hills, crossing gullies etc.

(for overwatch style critter control I use heavier rifles on tripods, but doing less moving around on foot with those setups).

To get a 14 with a used gen 3 tube, like from SSNV ( @Surgeon_Shooter) best case might run around $2k depending on what options you want. Then you need something on your head to hold it. A Crye Precision Night Cap and a shroud and a rhino mount might run $300-$400. Then an ir-laser on your rifle. Well, low end are the laser max ir-lasers with a push pad for around $200. A step up from there is a PAQ-4c which I got one on ebay for around $400 several years ago. For standing unsupported shooting inside 150yds, pretty much any ir-laser will do.
That's about as cheap as you can get it. Now again, you won't have thermal, but you'll be able to see and PID and shoot in open fields in many conditions.

If you want to add a thermal spotter to that setup ... then another $2k to $3k will get you there with something like a new Axion. You might be able to find a used one for a little less if you hunt around. Then lanyard that around your neck.

Here's a pic of the Crye Precision Night Cap with a 14 and a COTI ... this is about the lightest, most compact means of getting thermal and 14 on your head together. These COTIs now run about $4k. The prices have come down since I got mine, they were $6.5K three years ago

If you decide to go the 14 + ir-laser way, we can walk you thru the setup and zeroing and practicing details.

 

[Crews]

So for an all in budget of $3k you're recommending a head mounted NV monocular and a weapon mounted laser. Is this a better solution than getting a $3k thermal weapon-mounted optic? What about a weapon mounted NV clip on, could I get something that's small and tough that will work with my Aimpoint T1?

For the type of hunting I'm doing, I'm perfectly happy with just having something on my gun and not something that also facilitates movement. I'm not stuck on that though. Still wondering if NV plus laser is as effective as using a thermal weapon mounted optic, with the caveat that I have a limited budget.

 

[Aescobar17]

I sold a like new Pulsar Trail XP38 a few weeks back for $3k. It was my scanning rig, while I shoot behind a Trail XP50LRF. I run them side by side with the REAP IR 35 and MKIII 60. The Trijicons has a very slight advantage in identifying targets, and that was well beyond 200 yds. I’ve killed a lot of hogs behind everything but the 38. I didn’t have an issue killing behind it, but I was too lazy to mount it to a rifle.

 

[wigwamitus]

Hunting usable thermals dont start until u get to around $3000 ... shown prices start at $3200-$3300.

I paid too much attention to your words about being tired of holding up to scan and prioritizing PID.

There have been a few cases of missed id both in combat and in hunting. I am a thermal bigot, so i dont blame the thermals any more than i blame the airliners for 9/11.
But i will agree thermals take more training and experience to use effectively than NV. And a lot of that is about PID.

i used a carbine with a trij mk3 almost exclusively for 2.5 years and i held up all the time for scanning. Didnt bother me. I had my support arm elbow on my chest. Actually both elbows on my chest, so i translated the weight to my body.

If u are set on a thermal the low end thermions and flir 536s are both options but have shown prices higher than your budget.

Also if i am on unfamiliar group having a 14 helps me see the gullies, holes in the ground etc better than thermal. Thermal helps me see the critters better than the 14. Thats why i where both up there.

My suggestion to get a 14 was based on trying to give a hands free scanning capability that can be weaponized with the laser.

I now use lasers on my carbines for all my walkin and stalkin ... but i usually have both nv and thermal on my head

 

[newguy2k3v2]

I started with a pvs-14, skull crusher, qd rifle mount for the pvs and a NV compatible eotech. Ir laser shortly after and months later thermal monoculars, and clip on NV and thermals.

It's an unpopular opinion with most night time pig hunters these days but I'd start over the same way.

If you've already got a thermal you can use to scan then definitely go PVS and laser. My offhand accuracy with a laser falls of at about 125-150. For longer shots, if you have time you could clip the pvs behind your t1. You do loose some brightness going through more layers of glass. Clip on NV and thermals are for magnified optics for the most part.

Every once in a while there will be something that moves into the edge of a treeline, down a row of corn, etc that I've identified but can't see with NV anymore but can target with thermal. For what it sounds like you're talking about you should be good with the pvs/laser combo. For me at typical NV hog ranges my split times between pigs are much better.

 

[Crews]

It's an unpopular opinion with most night time pig hunters these days but I'd start over the same way.

Every once in a while there will be something that moves into the edge of a treeline, down a row of corn, etc that I've identified but can't see with NV anymore but can target with thermal. For what it sounds like you're talking about you should be good with the pvs/laser combo. For me at typical NV hog ranges my split times between pigs are much better.

This is really getting down to the bottom of what I'm trying to figure out. I've used an XP50. It's not a ReapIR but it got the job done and I could find a Pulsar unit that fits my budget well enough. But it's bulky.

I'd say 80% of our shot are in wide open fields on moving animals. Does NOD's w/ laser offer enough of an advantage in this scenario to offset the times those hogs are in tall grass and I miss them without a thermal? That's what I'm struggling with. And the more I research all the extra equipment on top of a quality PVS-14, the more I doubt I can get all I need for close to $3k

 

[wigwamitus]

The advantage of a 14 plus laser in your case is budget fit and ability to scan hands free while moving ... and ability to shoot quickly out to the limit of your ability to provide a stable platform. Both newguy and I seem to have about the same limit, around 150yds. Of course, it is dark out there at night and you can often stalk in closer. On hogs, usually inside 100yds. Yotes are tougher.

Now you start throwing words like "quality PVS-14" into the equation ... that can drive the price up . But a used tube isn't necessarily a poor one in terms of ability to see at night with it. Even a blem tube can be a great tube for seeing at night except for a few spots you will only see in the house when you are looking for them but will not see in the field. And those are the types of aspects that can help keep you under budget.

XP50 ? Well that's closer in price to the higher end of the Pulsar line ... so $5k shown price ... though you can get them for a little less. If you can stretch your budget up to $5k then definitely more options open up.

The XQ38 you can probably get new for close to $3k ... if you call up three dealers including Optics Planet and tell them you will buy today for $3k. OP regularly sends out 10% off coupons, so asking them for 10% is just saying "give me a coupon today". Other dealers know OP will drop the price like that and will often, reluctantly match, if you push. That gets you into the thermal game at or close to your budget. But without a second device, you will be holding up to scan., Again, I've held up to scan for years, doesn't bother me due to the way I do it. Though I've certainly seen others mention not liking to do it - you aren't the first.

Hogs in tall grass is a job for thermal. Depending on the size of the hogs and the height of the grass, you can at least get glimpses of the backs of the hogs ... PID might be tough, but it tells you something is there and you can act accordingly.

Using a laser in tall grass/vegetation can be an issue because the grass/vegetation can split the laser ... I've seen my laser split into 4-8 "lasers" and I have to decide which one to aim with ...

So goal of the 14+laser suggestion was to get you able to see, move, shoot at night within your stated budget and to optimize PID and not having to hold up rifle to scan.

The low end, hunting usable thermals like the XQ38 will be at or above the top of your budget, but will allow you to see more critters that you might miss with NV. But PID will then be more reliant upon your training and experience and hence not as optimal as with PVS-14. And you will have to hold up to scan unless you have a second device.

You have to set your priorities ! And with me ... as I gained more experience, my priorities changed ... so priorities are not a "stone tablet".


Once you set the priorities, matching the gear to the requirements is easy. It is each person setting their priorities/requirements that is the tough part. Including for me!!! I agonize about my own priorities/requirements constantly. This is a process, not an event.

==
If it was me knowing what I know, I would definitely challenge the $3k budget. If you have a job, then all you have to do is prioritize getting the thermal you really want and set aside $x per month towards that goal. Then you can calculate the number of months you have to wait to get there. And if you have some excess gear to sell, then sell it and you can pull that date in closer. That's actually exactly what I'm doing now for my next major purchase. I decided what I wanted several months ago, I sold some gear ... and also saved a little each month ... I'm finally there and can make my purchase !!

 

[newguy2k3v2]

With NV the only thing I've found that hogs can semi blend in with is tilled/bare ground and shadows. Most of the vegetation that's dark green in the day is actually very light through NV. Cotton especially is a surprising difference.

You could do it for $3k but you'd have to find a deal on a used pvs-14 and I would try to get a dbal i2 laser at least for at least some illumination for shooting on dark nights. For scanning wide open areas you can pick up one of the evolva ir lights for about $70 I think. The 67 is the stoutest ir illuminator I've ever seen.

 

[Tim_WNC]

I'll be "that guy" in a thread where budgets of multiple thousands of dollars are being tossed around.

I spent ~$600 on one of the ATN X-Sight 4K units and couldn't be happier. Bought an upgraded (Surefire) IR Illuminator for ~$125 that made a huge difference.

With that setup I have no problem at all making shots and ID'ing game out to a couple hundred yards. It's big and heavy, but for an all in cost of less than $800 I couidn't be happier.

 

[TampaBud]

For the better part of the last 2 years, I focused on night thermal hunting for hogs and coyotes. I don't think you need to make it so complicated.

I'd try to find a 1yr or less old Pulsar XQ or XP Trail in either 38 or 50. It was fun to record the hunts with those but at some point it's all the same. The single most critical point will be your mount so leave an extra $300-500 in the budget. I loved the ZRODelta single release mount. https://www.nightvisionoutfitters.com/products/zro-delta-pulsar-qd-mount-apex-trail-core <---(no affiliation but place to get them).

This allowed me to scan with my thermal off the rifle. Spot a hog (s) and quickly attach. I put a cantilevered mount on the rear so all i had to do, using one hand, was squeeze the mount open, rock it on the rail and spin the knob to tighten. I always hung a red head lamp around my neck for a little extra light.

sidebar: i also took my thermal into the wood for deer season. Amazing pre light scanning for the deer you never saw coming but did with a thermal.

 

[Crews]

This thread was exactly what I needed to make my mind up, NV seems like a "nice to have" while a thermal weapon mounted optic does appear to be the smarter first purchase.

 

[wigwamitus]

"nice to have" versus "smart" might be in the eyes of the beholder, versus a universal truth ... but you know your requirements better than all the rest of us combined !!!

 

[Crews]

So the plot has thickened a bit.... one of the guys on the lease has a Gen3 PVS-14 made by L3 that he basically gave me to use for free long term. So I'm knocking that $3k cost right off the top. At this point, I'm thinking it's worth the trouble to go down the NV trail and just see if I can make it work for my needs at a minimal investment. If it doesn't, seems like I can sell the equipment for a minimal loss.

The other attraction is adding an additional layer of useful equipment for my "team" of hunters. Assuming there are a couple of nice hand-held and weapon-mounted thermals floating around, it would be nice to have a helmet-mounted PVS-14 for night time navigation. This would be a stand-alone unit with an adequate amount of illumination on the side of the helmet. Then I'll just have an aiming laser mounted on my rifle.

We ride around in a Polaris Ranger with no windshield or doors. Does anyone see bounce-back issues inside this open cab if illum is helmet mounted while driving?

 

[wigwamitus]

If no rear view mirrors either ... if nothing to bounce off of ... then no bounce.