Rifle Scopes Weaver FFP 3-15 or Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16

[cooper_257]

I am in the market for a new scope and both of these fit my budget but i cant decide witch one I should get. i like that the vortex has zero stop but I have heard that the glass is exceptional in the weaver, the weaver also has more windage and elevation adjustment but does not have zero stop. I haven't been able to look through either of these scopes and was wondering witch one has better glass and better low light use or are they both fairly equal. so I would like to hear from any of you who have had experience with either if these scopes.

 

[coldboremiracle]

Re: Weaver FFP 3-15 or Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16

1 vote for the PST.

 

[BCP]

Re: Weaver FFP 3-15 or Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16

I highly doubt there will more than a slightly marginal difference in glass quality between them. Look at the features and go from there.

 

[gglass]

Re: Weaver FFP 3-15 or Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16

I just went through this same evaluation, and I chose the Weaver.
The hardest part of the evaluation to overcome, is coming to the realization that this new Weaver is not your father's Weaver. Knowing that it comes from L.O.W. is one of the factors that finally pushed me towards the Weaver.

I am still waiting for new rings to arrive, but my initial observations with this scope leave me wondering how they can sell it for its current low price. I can only deduce that Weaver is trying to buy their way into the tactical market.

I'll get a more in depth review of my new Weaver once I get her mounted, and get some trigger time with her.

 

[steve1419]

Re: Weaver FFP 3-15 or Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16

Glass which rings did you buy for it?

 

[gglass]

Re: Weaver FFP 3-15 or Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steve1419</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Glass which rings did you buy for it?

</div></div>

TPS Tactical Scope 30mm Rings

I originally purchased the scope with the medium height TPS rings on a recommendation from the SWFA rep (the recommended rings where actually high rings. Yikes!), but I found that the scope sat far too high. I did some measurements and found that I can actually use the Super Low TPS rings and still have a 10th of an inch clearance on my rig.

http://swfa.com/TPS-Tactical-Scope-30mm-Rings-P41991.aspx

 

[hydro556]

Re: Weaver FFP 3-15 or Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16

Havent used the Weaver but have heard decent stuff about it.

I can tell you this, having owned 4 PSTs. They are not only phenomenal values, but are overall a very high end optic. I am telling you, dont let the price fool you.

Glass is way good. Turrets are as good as any I have used. Fit/finish is excellent. Nothing negative to say. These are simply high end optics at a great price.

You will be shorting yourself if you dont at least try one out.

 

[jrob300]

Re: Weaver FFP 3-15 or Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16

I got my 6-24 FFP mil/mil PST a couple days ago. Planning a shoot with another Hide guy who has the Weaver Tactical 3-15. Also bringing along another buddy's PST 4-16 SFP MOA and my Razor. Should have some pretty good feedback after that range trip. End of next week if all goes well.

John

 

[jeffersonv]

Re: Weaver FFP 3-15 or Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16

If it's subjective opinions you want, you should get plenty. I bet almost all opinions you get will be from someone who has either one of these or the other. I don't think there are many, if any, that have both of these scopes at this time.

I have the PST 4-16 FFP and I can tell you this is not a frail scope and as hydro556 says the turrets are really nice. I would add the reticle is pretty decent also.

Both scopes will be good on weight, the PST slightly better I think.

The biggest differences as far as I can tell is going to be the reticle and zero stop on the PST, and the glass in the Weaver would likely be better to my eye though I haven't looked through one. I have a Nitrex scope and I am basing that last statement on the assumption that the Weaver Tactical glass will be like the Nitrex glass which is very good.

The Weaver has an older style reticle that looks almost exactly like my Falcon Menace reticle except that the mildots have an open center. The PST reticle has hash marks at the mil and half mil marks and are numbered every 2 mils. I don't see how anyone could have a gripe about the PST reticle for tactical shooting.
Some will say they like the older style better. I'm not sure how much emotion can be found in that point of view but having both, and liking both, I like the PST better.

Also, the illumination on the Weaver has the option to choose between red and green while the PST has red illumination.

The turrets will also be different as the Weaver Tactical has the locking turrets (like my Nitrex) as compared to the more standard PST turrets which, again, are very positive. I doubt the Weaver turrets will have the positive feel of the PST turrets but I haven't tried them first hand. My guess is they will be similar to my Nitrex locking turrets.

In the durability department neither of these scopes have been out long enough to prove themselves. I think the PST may have an advantage in following the Razor and being able to borrow from the engineering from it's bigger brother.

A couple more points to consider:
The PST can likely be counted on to have a straight reticle and accurate adjustments after having 2 tries at the current production model. This may be a moot point if Weaver nailed it on the first try.
Warranties - the PST cannot be beat. I don't know the details of the Weaver warranty to be honest.

I would watch for a report from jrob300 for a better breakdown.

So, it's all in what you want. We are lucky to have them both as options at that price point. Unlike many in this forum it won't hurt my feelings one bit if you chose the one I don't have. Freaking communists.

 

[bolloxinaspanner]

Re: Weaver FFP 3-15 or Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16

I really don't think the Weaver is in the same league as the VV-PST, FFP, 4-16x50, mil/mil that I own. I would choose the Vortex just for the warranty even if it was only equal to the Weaver. But the reticle, the zero stop and the glass, which is better than the 2 Weavers I own make this an easy choice. I've shot with it at my range and in a match and it has performed magnificently. I've performed a 100 yd. ladder test (with the Horus mil. ladder) up and down 10 mils and it climbed up and returned back to zero all shots within .5 moa of the ladder cross members and each other, relatively speaking. At the match, if I dialed on the right dope for the UKD targets (we had to dope the range) it was a first round hit on steel. I could not find a reference for the 100 moa adjustment range for the Weaver on their site or any other.

Horus Scope Calibration Manual:
http://www.mil-dot.com/media/2124/horus%20cats%20manual.pdf

 

[gglass]

Re: Weaver FFP 3-15 or Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bolloxinaspanner</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I really don't think the Weaver is in the same league as the VV-PST, FFP, 4-16x50, mil/mil that I own. I would choose the Vortex just for the warranty even if it was only equal to the Weaver. But the reticle, the zero stop and the glass, which is better than the 2 Weavers I own make this an easy choice. I've shot with it at my range and in a match and it has performed magnificently. I've performed a 100 yd. ladder test (with the Horus mil. ladder) up and down 10 mils and it climbed up and returned back to zero all shots within .5 moa of the ladder cross members and each other, relatively speaking. At the match, if I dialed on the right dope for the UKD targets (we had to dope the range) it was a first round hit on steel. I could not find a reference for the 100 moa adjustment range for the Weaver on their site or any other.

Horus Scope Calibration Manual:
http://www.mil-dot.com/media/2124/horus%20cats%20manual.pdf </div></div>

The reference to the 100 MOA adjustment range is right on the Weaver product specification tab.

http://www.weaveroptics.com/optics/tactical/

I would not have given a Weaver product a second look if I simply based my opinion on their products I have owned in the past. I do give them a second look based on what I have read about this one and only Weaver scope. If the new (3-week old) Weaver scope is coming out of Japan's L.O.W. facility along side of some of NightForce's scope, that gives me reason enough to at least take it for a test drive.

 

[beretta_man11]

Re: Weaver FFP 3-15 or Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16

Don't get caught up on a name.

I own a:
3-15 Weaver FFP
4-16 PST FFP
Had 4-20 Weaver FFP
Ordered 6-24 PST FFP

I did not sell the 4-20 because it was junk. I sold it because I got caught up in the hype of the PST's. They had features I liked better. Zero'ish stops, better reticule, and better warranty.

The 3-15 has better clarity than my 4-16, I firmly believe this contrary to many people.

The PST is quite usable, well enough so that i picked the 6-24 over my 4-20.

If you are just worried about glass, the weaver is better but like i said, I like the PST features better.

 

[Bazgab]

Re: Weaver FFP 3-15 or Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16

I agree with beretta_man11, the PST has the zero stop, better reticule, and better warranty. Most people say the glass is better on the Weaver, it is good but I cannot compare it to a PST as I don't own one and have never seen on in person. The Weaver is also a little cheaper.

As a bonus for me, the Weaver turrets lock so when I hunt with it I don't have to worry about messing up my elevation/windage by accident. I don't really think you can go wrong with either one, I think everyone wins with this influx of really good sub-$1000 tactical optics.

 

[fdkay]

Re: Weaver FFP 3-15 or Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16

Having spent considerable time (as in years) in both the Philippines and Japan, and having used products from both countries, I would take a Japanese manufactured scope over a Philippine one any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

 

[hydro556]

Re: Weaver FFP 3-15 or Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: beretta_man11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't get caught up on a name.

I own a:
3-15 Weaver FFP
4-16 PST FFP
Had 4-20 Weaver FFP
Ordered 6-24 PST FFP

I did not sell the 4-20 because it was junk. I sold it because I got caught up in the hype of the PST's. They had features I liked better. Zero'ish stops, better reticule, and better warranty.

The 3-15 has better clarity than my 4-16, I firmly believe this contrary to many people.

The PST is quite usable, well enough so that i picked the 6-24 over my 4-20.

If you are just worried about glass, the weaver is better but like i said, I like the PST features better. </div></div>

Wow. You are saying that you have verified that the Weaver has better glass (for what little that is worth, assuming both are sufficient) than the PST? I will give the Weaver a more serious consideration then, may have to pick one up. Because I would like to check it for myself. Because the PST doesnt have OK glass. It has very good glass.

Also, I would have to disagree with your comment about the PST having a Zero'ish stop.

The zero stops in the PST is an innovative concept IMO. The kind of innovation that is needed to deliver a scope of this caliber at a great price. The shims are idiot proof. Any child who can read could install these and they function perfectly. You fill the gaps with the shims and you get a rock hard, consistent zero stop about .5 mil below zero. In the end it works exactly like the zero stops on all the Schmidt scopes I have had. Excellent.

 

[RHutch]

Re: Weaver FFP 3-15 or Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16

I find it interesting that some here have found the PST glass is excellent, some say it is OK/useable/sufficient and some say it sucks…to paraphrase.
I was not impressed with the 4-16 sample I bought.
I still want to try the 6-24 PST as i am a glutton for punishment.

Have not seen any trash talk on the 3-15 Weaver glass though. The one I bought on a whim really outshines the glass in the PST.

I am not talking scope features here, just what is seen through the scope.
Other than the PST Z stop, I consider them roughly equal in features.

Discuss….

 

[jrob300]

Re: Weaver FFP 3-15 or Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16

Did a brief side-by-side between my 6-24 PST, my Razor 5-20 and a Falcon 5-25 today.

Need to do a little more serious evaluation, but honestly below 20x the PST and the Razor are extremely close. The Razor has a small edge in lowlight sensitivity. It would appear that the PST actually has less chromatic aberration. Didn't do any serious edge-to-edge comparisons. The Falcon was nowhere in the running at any level and its lowlight performance was miserable.

Like I said, if all goes well should also have a 4-16 PST and a 3-15 Weaver Tac to run through their paces at the end of next of next week.

John

 

[sniperaviator]

Re: Weaver FFP 3-15 or Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16

Everyone seems to have a different opinion on glass quality. There are some objective tests, but no one seems to do them.

 

[jrob300]

Re: Weaver FFP 3-15 or Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sniperaviator</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Everyone seems to have a different opinion on glass quality. There are some objective tests, but no one seems to do them. </div></div>

We plan to use this to do some resolution evaluation...

http://accurateshooter.net/targets/usaf1951.pdf

John

 

[Hawk45]

Re: Weaver FFP 3-15 or Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16

Once we get past the "glass".. what are the other aspects of the Weaver you like vs the PST? Clicks, repeatability, how solid does it feel, etc?

 

[jrob300]

Re: Weaver FFP 3-15 or Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hawk45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Once we get past the "glass".. what are the other aspects of the Weaver you like vs the PST? Clicks, repeatability, how solid does it feel, etc? </div></div>

Those are good questions. What would *you* guys like to see from a side-by -side evaluation? Can't promise, but it might help to have a wish list.

John

 

[gglass]

Re: Weaver FFP 3-15 or Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hawk45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Once we get past the "glass".. what are the other aspects of the Weaver you like vs the PST? Clicks, repeatability, how solid does it feel, etc? </div></div>

Those are good questions. What would *you* guys like to see from a side-by -side evaluation? Can't promise, but it might help to have a wish list.

John</div></div>

Wish list:

* The most objective glass comparison possible
* Box testing/tracking comparison
* Next tier comparison (Throw in a Mark 4 or NightForce)
* Low light comparison
* Adjustment range measurement

Thanks for taking the time and effort to do this evaluation.

 

[Hawk45]

Re: Weaver FFP 3-15 or Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16

Things I'd like to hear if you are up for it with you optics (but understand if some are unresonable with your $$/time on the line):

- durability test: maybe a few butt drops from a few feet up to see if POI changes for both.
- durability test: smack the sides of the scopes with open hand a few times and check POI again
- Box test
- Mil test - dots at 100yds strung vertical at drop increments based on ballistics. See if the mils are correct and hit expected POI for both reticle holds and turret adjustment.

 

[jrob300]

Re: Weaver FFP 3-15 or Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16

I talked to Paul Stafford about this tonight. He is the owner of the Weaver 3-15. Paul lives about 2.5 hours from me and the original intent of this shoot was for him to pick up his rifle from UGSW, get his scope mounted and chrono some loads. The optic evaluation seemed a natural outgrowth, but it wil be secondary priority to his needs. We will get done what we can, but time will be limited and he has a time commitment to return home.

To me, the most important thing a scope does (that is assuming you can actually see through it

) is track accurately and repeatably. The first thing we will do is put the rifles in a vise on a bench 100 yds. from a 10 mil x 5 mil cross with dots marking 5 mil up, 5 mils down, 2.5 mils left and 2.5 mils right. The scopes will be zeroed and then checked for windage and elevation accuracy and reticle accuracy as well as reticle plumb.

Other testing we do will depend on time. I'll put a little thought into this and write up a test plan, taking into account your ideas also, and prioritize it. We'll do as much as we can with the time allotted.

Thanks for your understanding and patience as we don't do this all the time.

BTW... don't expect a bunch of through the scope pics as it's time consuming and of questionable value, so we jettisoned that idea right off. You'll have to trust the powers of observation of two ex-engineers. We will make this as objective as possible, but optics invariably come down to the subjective at some point.

John

 

[PaulStafford]

Re: Weaver FFP 3-15 or Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16

but no dropping, tannerite etc. sorry, Hawk

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Weaver FFP 3-15 or Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16

Locking in a vise is nice, but I like to take a piece of corrugated palstic about 4' wide and putting a dot or diamond in the center, then dots at 9" and 18" each side and above the center dot/diamond.
Lay these out with a compass or square. Then shoot a few shots at the center, then try 2.5 mil Right, then 2.5 mil Left of zero, then 5 mil left and 5 mil right of zero, repeat with 2.5 and 5 mil up from sero. All these are shot while aiming at the original aiming point.
Then zero and finish 5 shot group with two shots at center to make sure everything's back.
2.5 mils is 9" at 100, 5 is 18", etc....
I did this last week with my latest USO, and the shots at 5L and 5R measured exactly 36" from each other. All my shooting was a little left of POA, but the raltionship of shot to shot showed teh scope was tracking perfectly.

I'd opt for the Vortex over the Weaver, better range of adjustment,a nd more personal CS.

Resolution without using optical machinery is still subjective related to the assesor's eyesight, charts can help level the field, but its still dependent on how eacjh eye reacts to different coatings.

 

[gglass]

Re: Weaver FFP 3-15 or Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd opt for the Vortex over the Weaver, better range of adjustment,a nd more personal CS.</div></div>

I agree with the CS statement, but the range of adjustment is exactly opposite of your assumption. The Weaver has a published 100 MOA of adjustment. Whereas, the Vortex (4-16) has a published 75 MOA of adjustmen,t and the Vortex (6-24) has 65 MOA of adjustment.

My Weaver 3-15 has exactly 148 clicks down and 132 clicks up, from the center as shipped, which translates to 96.264 MOA of adjustment... Pretty close to the advertised 100 MOA.

 

[Flyingbullseye]

Re: Weaver FFP 3-15 or Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16

gglass, you sure you counted right? Mine and ggarrett1911 both have over the advertised elevation. Both of ours has a total of 31.2 mils of travel. I think a few others have said basically the same thing. Might want to go back a recount just to make sure.

Flyingbullseye

 

[ggarrett1911]

Re: Weaver FFP 3-15 or Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16

Yep 31.2 mils here as bullseye said...

 

[gglass]

Re: Weaver FFP 3-15 or Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Flyingbullseye</div><div class="ubbcode-body">gglass, you sure you counted right? Mine and ggarrett1911 both have over the advertised elevation. Both of ours has a total of 31.2 mils of travel. I think a few others have said basically the same thing. Might want to go back a recount just to make sure.

Flyingbullseye </div></div>

I might have a bit more travel, but I stopped as soon as I felt any resistance at all. No matter how slight. I didn't feel like wrecking the internals, just to eek out the last couple of mils.

If mine does indeed only have 96 to 97 MOA of travel, I'll live with it.

 

[Adam B]

Re: Weaver FFP 3-15 or Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16

So I decided to pick up a Weaver and I have to say that I am impressed with it. The glass is very clear, the turrets are firm and positive and the scope is about the perfect size. Time will tell how it holds up and tracks, if it does, this scope will be a real winner.

 

[TallShot]

Re: Weaver FFP 3-15 or Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16

Where are you guys getting your Weavers or Vortex at...? THAT is the burning question I have...

Back order that finally came in? I've called a couple places, and checked online, but no dice.

 

[ggarrett1911]

Re: Weaver FFP 3-15 or Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16

Midway USA showed the Weaver in stock earlier this evening.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=911627

 

[bolloxinaspanner]

Re: Weaver FFP 3-15 or Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16

"We plan to use this to do some resolution evaluation...

http://accurateshooter.net/targets/usaf1951.pdf

John"

Thanks for the test pattern. Is it meant to be placed at 100 yards?

 

[lennyo3034]

Re: Weaver FFP 3-15 or Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16

I just looked up that weaver "Enhanced Mil-Dot Reticule", its not bad:

http://www.weaveroptics.com/optics/tactical/

 

[jrob300]

Re: Weaver FFP 3-15 or Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16

I promised I'd post something on this...

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2511913#Post2511913

John