Just a little info folks interested in Ti cans should be aware of. I'm surprised at some of the stuff I've seen out there.
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Suppressors Welding Titanium
- Thread starter TBACRAY
- Start date
Only the first two are acceptable to us at Thunder Beast. We don't dig the pretty colors on our welds at all. Thats how the Ultras have the pressure ratings they do.
Yes, color = oxidation of contaminants or alloys, which means you're not getting full strength. We weld Titanium with Lasers or Electron Beams almost exclusively here where I work, and when you see a weld with any color, you know someone didn't wait long enough after closing the tank to start the weld.
That said, I've welded titanium motorcycle exhaust's in less than ideal conditions (big rubbermaid tote purges as well as possible with argon)... You're getting color no matter how careful you are in conditions like that... for the application though, who cares? It's non-structural, and with the heat of the exhaust on something like a header, it's going to blue from oxidation in minutes anyway... My buddy was pissed when I "ruined" his brand new Taylor Made Racing exhaust for his S1000RR... He mounted it, and after we stopped an hour later, he couldn't even find the weld with how blue the rest of the exhaust was...
That said, I've welded titanium motorcycle exhaust's in less than ideal conditions (big rubbermaid tote purges as well as possible with argon)... You're getting color no matter how careful you are in conditions like that... for the application though, who cares? It's non-structural, and with the heat of the exhaust on something like a header, it's going to blue from oxidation in minutes anyway... My buddy was pissed when I "ruined" his brand new Taylor Made Racing exhaust for his S1000RR... He mounted it, and after we stopped an hour later, he couldn't even find the weld with how blue the rest of the exhaust was...
Yes. The bluing is again just oxidation, and/or the formation of salts, which can be triggered by heat (heat accelerates all oxidation, but some metals will not oxidize below a temperature threshold without a catalyst). Cobalt is usually responsible for the bluing, but copper salts can do the same thing. Titanium itself oxidizes colorless, and chromium oxidizes yellowish, but the alloys within the metal make the colors.
Only a weld on each end of these but no color. Pretty dam straight too, with no EDM at all
Color in commercially pure ti welds indicates contamination by PPM levels of oxygen, hydrogen and nitrogen. “Shiny as a new dime” welds are typically ductile. Those with color many, but not all, times have a loss of ductility. Gas source is the trick. Standard welding grade argon has enough contaminates and moisture to give straw or light blue no matter what. Lab grade argon and a dryer along with a few other tricks consistently reduce coloring outside a purge chamber.
As a welding engineer, I qualified welding procedures to US Navy and ASME rules. Ti was always challenging ....
As a welding engineer, I qualified welding procedures to US Navy and ASME rules. Ti was always challenging ....
Only a weld on each end of these but no color. Pretty dam straight too, with no EDM at all
That's dead sexy....
Here are some stacks slowly being welded together.
TBAC is one of 6-7 silencer companies, that I know of, that know how to properly weld titanium.
Thunderbeast, KG Made, CGS Group, Dead Air, Torrent Suppressors, and SIGs skinny weld bead models are all good to go. I'm sure there are a few more companies I'm forgetting that have those perfect silver welds. I know AACs Titan series were good to go.
Thunderbeast, KG Made, CGS Group, Dead Air, Torrent Suppressors, and SIGs skinny weld bead models are all good to go. I'm sure there are a few more companies I'm forgetting that have those perfect silver welds. I know AACs Titan series were good to go.
TBACRAY, that's some very good looking work. I like to see professionals who take pride in doing the best job they can. It is becoming a rare thing nowadays and I am a sucker for anything made from steel, aluminum, titanium and inconel.
Great job.
Great job.
I think a bare titanium can that naturally blued would be bad as..
Just to add to your comments Ray. Side by side my Ultra 9 and AAC 300-tm, the ultra's welds are flawless, you can't even tell there's a single weld on the can. The AAC on the other hand, well there's two types of welders. What the color of the AAC welds are I have no clue, its never had an issue but sure isn't flawless like the ultra.
There are some field welding procedures for Ti piping where you cannot install a purge box I learned and qualified on once upon a time. They involve large trail-gas nozzles for the TIG torch and weld bead lengths of <3/4". Nowadays you can get purge bags with clear windows made up for field welds that have a much better pass rate.
You ever smack some of the discolored blue Ti tube with a hammer and you'll understand why it's rejectable.
You ever smack some of the discolored blue Ti tube with a hammer and you'll understand why it's rejectable.
NASA disagrees. That know that rejection based on color is inaccurate, that you have to do a physical test.Just a little info folks interested in Ti cans should be aware of. I'm surprised at some of the stuff I've seen out there.
Please post pics of one of your colorless cores after being shot. Amazing, those colors come right out. Should you reject those? If you are confident in your welds, remove the outer tube and save your customers 4 oz.?
The Thunder Chicken is a better silencer than the TBAC offers.
I went and checked the NASA titanium welding guidelines. This seems to indicate that color is one of the metrics used to assess the quality of the welds. Can you link me or direct me to your source and maybe give a small explanation as to why color is so inaccurate in predicting weld strength?
4.12.2.1 Visual Inspection[GWR 132] Titanium weld deposit and heat-affected zone shall adhere to the color requirements of the accompanying detailed weld process specification identified in section 1.2.
It states color is not necessarily an indicator, and the absence is color is not necessarily an indicator. That you must physically test both. Shoot their core see how it looks.
I've one multiple US .mil contracts we Ti silencers. No one else has. We do not have weld failures.
Here's two examples where the taper design sucks ass until everyone in the world starts using them. At the timestamps below, the cans become loose causing issues. The vso gun channel later has a strike with a round at the end of the video. Q cans could use a revision, hopefully they take it as constructive criticism and build something great.
at 8:37
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wy0vTldzF5c
at 2:38
at 8:37
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wy0vTldzF5c
at 2:38
The first video shows the supressor coming loose, which is not uncommon at all for direct thread supressors - now it's completely likely that the guy didn't tighten it enough for the taper to create enough friction, so until more examples of the same thing happen, it's completely irrelevant to the taper design.
The second video shows what could be an out of spec barrel threading, as I've never seen any other videos with that much "wobble" in the threads. He didn't say whether it wobbled on other guns of his, just that one. So again, until there's further investigation or additional customers complaining of the same thing - it's completely illogical to blame taper design for this incident.
Constructive criticism would be great, but what you've brought up is just unfounded attacks on their design without any data or facts to verify your claims.
Baffle strikes happen all the time with various manufacturers, many times due to user error - so until there's more examples and problems reported this looks like a bunch of typical internet fear mongering by people who couldn't afford to buy them or who regret the ones they already got.
I just wanted to point out 2 examples where experienced youtubers had issues with their cans. If you have taper barrels, I'm sure Q's cans are great. But if your like most of the people in the world who use 90 degree shoulder barrels, tapered suppressors just don't engage as well as other DT cans.
Color is an indicator that the weld zone has been contaminated by oxygen, hydrogen or nitrogen either in the shielding gas or by exposure to atmosphere when the metal temp is around 800 f. Blue or worse coloration indicates embrittlement, that is, reduced ductility. It’s not for sure but it does occur with some regularity. I’ve seen as many blue and purple welds fail in a brittle manner, breaking and falling in two pieces. Others bent right around the mandrel like ductile, unwelded base material. Lots of awareness of this by The Welding Institute, Edison Welding Instutite and the American Welding Society. Best to shoot for no more than a straw color in the welds and HAZ.
Regards,
Scott
Ah, sorry for the somewhat accusatory tone then. I think I was directing my bewilderment towards you at how much people were getting upset over what has amounted to a bunch of nothing so far beyond fear over the color of metal. Especially considering this is a group of guys that have a 24 year track record at making well respected products. If welds were an issue, that would have definitely popped up by now over the years.
As far as the taper goes - if it truly is the better option, which I think it is, then wouldn't it be the proper thing for companies to heavily shift towards the better design? Kinda similar to the shift from drum to disc brakes. There's going to be a cost involved, but in the end it's better for the customer. Also, most people in the world may use a 90 shoulder, but most people in the world don't have any interest in buying a suppressor - so i'm not sure that should be a huge factor for silencer companies to stay with it.
First post. Best described as a gun enthusiast at best with previous LE experience. Certainly not an expert in the design, manufacture, or operation of suppressors. I am however now a welding engineer by trade, part of my time involved working for the Navy and overseeing the welding of nuclear ships and submarines.
What I can say is the welding of titanium is quite possibly given the most scrutiny and oversight of any material in the Navy. A vendor must submit a titanium specific control plan, training plan, and facility requirements before even being allowed to qualify a welding procedure. Visual inspection is strictly controlled, and yes anything other than silver or straw color requires complete removal of the weld bead along with 1/16” of surrounding material. This requirement exists regardless of whether welded qualification coupons previously passed tensile tests, bend tests, X-ray, and liquid penetrant inspection. See NAVSEA Tech Pub 278 and do a word search for titanium.
Having said that, one must keep in mind the application. Titanium is typically used in critical applications including reactor piping which must withstand shock from sea states or enemy fire. Heavy walls with multiple pass welds, Suppressors, while certainly subjected to high pressures, are a completely different animal. Very thin, welded with automated and likely orbital systems, and appear to be redundant in design (i.e. multiple baffles and welds to withstand pressure and load).
I’m about to make my first suppressor purchase, and it will likely still be a Q...blue welds and all. Proof is in the torture tests. But ideally yes I would prefer silver welds fabricated in a high purity purged environment.
What I can say is the welding of titanium is quite possibly given the most scrutiny and oversight of any material in the Navy. A vendor must submit a titanium specific control plan, training plan, and facility requirements before even being allowed to qualify a welding procedure. Visual inspection is strictly controlled, and yes anything other than silver or straw color requires complete removal of the weld bead along with 1/16” of surrounding material. This requirement exists regardless of whether welded qualification coupons previously passed tensile tests, bend tests, X-ray, and liquid penetrant inspection. See NAVSEA Tech Pub 278 and do a word search for titanium.
Having said that, one must keep in mind the application. Titanium is typically used in critical applications including reactor piping which must withstand shock from sea states or enemy fire. Heavy walls with multiple pass welds, Suppressors, while certainly subjected to high pressures, are a completely different animal. Very thin, welded with automated and likely orbital systems, and appear to be redundant in design (i.e. multiple baffles and welds to withstand pressure and load).
I’m about to make my first suppressor purchase, and it will likely still be a Q...blue welds and all. Proof is in the torture tests. But ideally yes I would prefer silver welds fabricated in a high purity purged environment.
@ Kevin B. and the TBAC team, please keep your discussions going, i think its highly educational and i enjoy them, thank you!
i have a Q suppressor in NFA Jail and getting ready to buy a TBAC ( 6.5 9ultra ) after that ill probably get another Q(T-Chicken) for blasting
i have a Q suppressor in NFA Jail and getting ready to buy a TBAC ( 6.5 9ultra ) after that ill probably get another Q(T-Chicken) for blasting
Hi. Why don't you contribute by starting your own company and doing things the way you see as best? Or starting doing independent sound testing?
Holy shit Paco, the Nelson gets its ass kicked. Video of actual scientific numbers is way better than cringy instagram post.
Does it really matter what a manufacturer posts in dBs? It’s only one data point under what I would immediately presume are favorable test conditions and instrumentation. There are other folks who have already posted numbers on the internet using the same methods they employed on competing cans, including dealers who have a vested interest as well as independent third parties. Aggregate the data and make conclusions from that.
dBs tell you nothing about tone, which unless accompanied by a frequency response graph is quite subjective and contributes to perceived quietness.
dBs tell you nothing about tone, which unless accompanied by a frequency response graph is quite subjective and contributes to perceived quietness.
Since we're getting off topic...
Good job Kevin, jumping on a potential customer for asking for a little better info. That's the best way to earn a guys business. Watching some of your responses in the Fix thread, it doesn't suprise me.
There's a reason Tbac uses milspec testing procedures. Quantifiable, repeatable results that anyone with the right equipment can duplicate. Ray has done a lot of other videos with numbers at the ejection port and shooters ear and he states that. The milspec tests gives anyone a fair playing field if they want to go head to head numbers with someone else.
One more thing Kevin, you tell the guy to start his own business so he can do whatever he wants. Why would he do that when Tbac already does?! Your marketing is pretty good, however, you're products have to speak for themselves to this crowd. We're not your typical group of internet sheep.
Good job Kevin, jumping on a potential customer for asking for a little better info. That's the best way to earn a guys business. Watching some of your responses in the Fix thread, it doesn't suprise me.
There's a reason Tbac uses milspec testing procedures. Quantifiable, repeatable results that anyone with the right equipment can duplicate. Ray has done a lot of other videos with numbers at the ejection port and shooters ear and he states that. The milspec tests gives anyone a fair playing field if they want to go head to head numbers with someone else.
One more thing Kevin, you tell the guy to start his own business so he can do whatever he wants. Why would he do that when Tbac already does?! Your marketing is pretty good, however, you're products have to speak for themselves to this crowd. We're not your typical group of internet sheep.
You guys sure are getting all upset over a guy who likes to run his company a bit different than most. Sure, he can come across as an asshole, but he's keeping other companies on their toes in a way that customers can't. Why do you guys get so upset over him calling out other companies products? Is that not what competition is about? Does that not produce better products and keep companies honest? Where's the negative for us customers?
Where are the other companies owners in responding to customers directly on a consistent basis? You may not like what he says, but at least he says what he thinks and is responsive, even to those who are assholes back.
There's a ton more to suppressors than just dB numbers - and if you've done your research, unlike "your typical group of internet sheep", then you would know that Kevin has a specific goal in mind with his suppressors, namely weight and POI shift. But hey, if he claimed it's the "quietest in the market" - well, go ahead, call him out and put up the numbers. But the only numbers posted above are against a suppressor that's not in the market yet.... Those other companies are free to buy Q silencers and do their own testing as well to post.
Where are the other companies owners in responding to customers directly on a consistent basis? You may not like what he says, but at least he says what he thinks and is responsive, even to those who are assholes back.
There's a ton more to suppressors than just dB numbers - and if you've done your research, unlike "your typical group of internet sheep", then you would know that Kevin has a specific goal in mind with his suppressors, namely weight and POI shift. But hey, if he claimed it's the "quietest in the market" - well, go ahead, call him out and put up the numbers. But the only numbers posted above are against a suppressor that's not in the market yet.... Those other companies are free to buy Q silencers and do their own testing as well to post.
You can't be serious. <facepalm>
I’m not in a firearms related industry, but I try to treat my competitors as colleagues. I don’t smack talk them or their products/services. I let my products call them out without having to say a thing. I let how I conduct my business speak for itself without having to point it out.
Telling everyone how great you are is part of marketing. To me, in my own opinion, I get a little leary when it becomes insufficient to market how great you are, and you fell the need to trash someone else and their business... it that’s just me. Maybe I’m too much of a gentleman for the firearms business, but my clients sure appreciate the way I do things, because I still have the ones I started with 20 years ago...
I am serious. I didn't say no other company owners do it, obviously a couple others do - but it would be nice if more were willing to do it.
That's one way to run a business - I don't disagree it's a good way. But there's other ways to do it too. And some of us customers like the pressure that more direct challenges puts on other companies to do more and do better. If a company makes a bunch of empty claims, then they'll get called out eventually. Just like with Q - if their products don't live up to the hype/marketing... well, Kevin will definitely be called out. Until that happens, I'll enjoy the products from multiple other companies that are brought out to market quicker and better due to his jackassery, heh.
So continue to call out Kevin, I have no issue with that - but instead of boycotting his products, why not let the other companies fight their own fights. I enjoy it.
Yes, but I didn't mean to imply Kevin was the only one - just that it's very rare for owners to be direct and I wish it happened with more companies. I appreciate TBAC's participation and I doubt they care as much as some people on this forum about what Kevin says and his instagram posts.
If anything, Kevin has stated reasons why he likes things about TBACs products and has spoken favorably about them in ways. I kinda wish TBAC would get a bit more aggressive against Kevin at times too - it's not impossible to challenge others while maintaining friendships or at minimum cordial relationships. Not saying companies should just start throwing shit all over eachother, but when products are factually different - then call out those differences if they favor your product.
I’d get a Q can if it is the shit, no prob. I would like to handle one and possibly try one out before hand if possible. I’ve been burned 2x by buying cans without seeing them first. One of them will literally be just a hunk of metal in my safe, and the other I use on my 300 blk, but I am quite disappointed with the experience I’ve had with it. I hope it never breaks because I really don’t want to deal with those guys ever again.
As for TBAC, I really like those guys. I’ve called and probably asked Ray some dumb questions, and he always makes time to chat. Ray also works his ass off doing testing of as many scenarios as you can think of. I have 2 of their cans and use them often. I will likely get #3 when I get settled in again with the finances. They have learned a lot over the last 7 years and put out their best cans to date with the ultra. I’m sure if there is improvement to be done, they will be on top of it
As for TBAC, I really like those guys. I’ve called and probably asked Ray some dumb questions, and he always makes time to chat. Ray also works his ass off doing testing of as many scenarios as you can think of. I have 2 of their cans and use them often. I will likely get #3 when I get settled in again with the finances. They have learned a lot over the last 7 years and put out their best cans to date with the ultra. I’m sure if there is improvement to be done, they will be on top of it
I don't feel a company should say anything about their competitors. That may be just me but I prefer to see a company stay above the bullshit of trash talking each other. Let your product prove ite worth for itself. If someone is doing it better, you better step up or get left behind. I don't think it takes trashing another guys product.
You think you're the best? Prove it? Don't want to prove it because you don't think you have to? That's cool too. Just don't expect people to take your word for it.
You think you're the best? Prove it? Don't want to prove it because you don't think you have to? That's cool too. Just don't expect people to take your word for it.
