Well so I guess they really are bad.

29aholic

29aholic

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 1, 2010
687
2
58
Southwest MO
#1
So I have been working with my SPS Tactical. While not particularly happy with the X-Mark trigger I felt I had it tuned to a point I could live with.
Mine is the early one without the 40x type adjustment so I had to take it out of the stock to adjust it. I actually did this more than a year ago and have been shooting and dry firing it quite a bit since. I followed normal adjusting protocol by working the bolt vigorously and dropping the rifle on the butt from about 2'...no problems.

In the last two weeks I have had 3 AD's (the gun was empty all 3 times). The one last week I thought might have been me having my finger on the trigger when I took the safety off, but last night it happened twice in a row. I do keep it loaded with a round chambered and the safety on. We have a couple of big cats roaming the area and I have horses.

Last night I took it out to the shop for some dry fire drills. I open the bolt, eject the round and drop the magazine. Closed the bolt, took the safety off and SNAP...finger was nowhere close to the trigger. I opened the bolt again and put it back on safety, close the bolt take safety off and SNAP again.

Now I repeat the above a 3rd time, no snap. I work the bolt vigorously, no snap. I put the rifle back on safe, work the bolt some more, jerk on the trigger fairly hard, take the safety off...no snap. I do this for about an hour and never could get it to AD again.

I doubt this trigger pull is as low as 3lbs probably closer to 4lbs but I don't have a trigger gauge.

Looking back it seems like it has only happened when the rifle was setting on safe for an extended time. I ran some lighter fluid last night and let it soak.

I know the answer is a different trigger, but we have had a bunch of medical bills lately and I cant justify spending the money right. I had one bought in the PX, but had to back out like a douche bag due to my wife's surgery. I am going to have to work with what I have for now.
 
#2
An AD is nothing to take lightly.... It only takes one to ruin not only your life but many others. You can buy a timney for a little over $100 and in this case, the peace of mind alone for me would be worth it. It would be the best money you ever spent.
 
#3
i would replace the trigger and stopping fucking around with it. you can keep your bolt gun condition one but i cant for the life of me see why you need to. you can simply cycle the bolt and have a live round in it in a split second for those pesky cats...now if you are pursuing in a hunt scenario then by all means. i just dont trust any safety especially on some dudes "tuned" trigger.
 
#4
Do yourself a BIG favor. Buy a Timney trigger. Better yet make it a 510 CE. I recently put one in one of my Remington's and it's the real deal. Blow an extra $100 for a trigger ($210 from Timney) that will never let you down and feels like something costing twice as much.
 
#5
At this point OP has three options.

You can call Remington and tell them the trigger is misfiring and send it in for repair.


You can take the rifle to a qualified smith and have him repair it

You can replace the trigger with a new unmolested trigger.

Either way, an AD after this point will not be accidental as you know the trigger is not functioning correctly.

Personally I would pull the trigger and replace it. If you dont have the cash , then wait until you do, but dont use the rifle with that trigger any longer. The fact that you have any AD means trigger tuning is beyond your scope of work.

You can order a Timney direct from the factory and they will preset it for you.
 
#6
Ok I should have posted in the original post.
The only "Tuning" I did was to back out the tension screw to try to reduce the weight of the pull. I did NOT take it apart, stone it, etc. I adjusted no other screws.
I have owned 700's for over 30 years and have performed the same thing on practically every rifle I owned that needed it.

My reason for posting this thread was to add more information here for others on one of the reasons there is a recall on these.

Until I have the money for a better trigger this gun will be relegated to range shooting only, I have other guns to stave off the cats if need be.
 
#10
HKpirate said:
I really hope you shoot at a private range and you are the only one there..... If you are having any AD's why would you even touch the gun put it in the safe till it gets fixed.
Click to expand...

I do have basically a private range, and I believe if all proper procedures are followed (empty gun when down range, only pointing the gun down range, etc) the gun is alright to shoot.
As I said, I will no longer keep the gun loaded or use it for anything but on the range.
 
#13
I really don't understand the discussion here. That rifle isn't safe and has no business being used in any fashion whatsoever. Either get the trigger fixed or put that rifle away until it is.

The facts are:

1. You have a rifle that discharges unintentionally
2. You cannot intentionally repeat the circumstances that cause it to discharge unintentionally
3. You do not know what is causing the problem

I don't see how anyone could declare the rifle as okay to use, even in specific conditions, when they can't say with 100% certainty what is going on.
 
#15
After posting your story on the net, You now hold one heck of a liability for anything in that rifles future. Not even mentioning your basic responsibility to remedy a known defect that could cause harm to someone else. Do you really feel their is another option that the internet is going to provide? Fix it, or wrap it around a fence post to prevent someone else from getting shot 10 years after you die!
 
#18
You need to adjust the trigger so that you can slam the end of the rifle onto a hard surface and not have the trigger release when the safety is off.
Then
You need to adjust the trigger so that you can slam the trigger itself with a hard surface and not have the trigger release when the safety is on.
Otherwise,
that gun is a walking time bomb.
 
#19
OK what I thought would be a public service announcement has turned into something else. My original intent was to show these triggers are shit regardless of what Remington says.
I mean if you can use a properly (and it was) adjusted trigger for over a year, then all of a sudden this starts happening then it is time to move on to something better.

To clear the air and ease everyone's mind (including my own) I have another factory (old style) trigger I can put in it for now.
 
#20
MitchAlsup said:
Otherwise,
that gun is a walking time bomb.
Click to expand...

Not if he doesn't point it at anyone or anything he doesn't want to shoot. That was the main problem with all the safeties that allowed the rifles to fire when released. The muzzles were pointing at people when this happened.

People rely too much on safeties rather than common sense. Lack of common sense AND a gun is more of a walking time bomb.
 
#21
29aholic said:
Ok I should have posted in the original post.
The only "Tuning" I did was to back out the tension screw to try to reduce the weight of the pull. I did NOT take it apart, stone it, etc. I adjusted no other screws.
I have owned 700's for over 30 years and have performed the same thing on practically every rifle I owned that needed it.

My reason for posting this thread was to add more information here for others on one of the reasons there is a recall on these.

Until I have the money for a better trigger this gun will be relegated to range shooting only, I have other guns to stave off the cats if need be.
Click to expand...

Was this happening before you molested the trigger? Is the recall because people are attempting to adjust triggers without a pull gauge, and obviously not knowing how to do it correctly?
 
#22
300sniper said:
Was this happening before you molested the trigger? Is the recall because people are attempting to adjust triggers without a pull gauge, and obviously not knowing how to do it correctly?
Click to expand...

If you will read the original post, the trigger had been adjusted for over a year. The trigger was adjusted properly and all steps were taken to make sure it was safe. I have put probably 500 rounds down the tube since I adjusted the tension screw and probably dry fired it another several 100 times without issue.

No I don't have a trigger gauge, but I have been pulling triggers a LONG time and know enough about them to know what is a safe weight, dangerous weight, and borderline. This falls well into the safe range at between 3.5 & 4lbs.

There was NO adjustment to the sear or any other part of the trigger, JUST the tension screw.

Now you all don't know me from Adam and I am not claiming I am a master gunsmith, but I have been around and worked on these things all of my life. I DO know what I am doing. Again read the procedures I used in my original post.

The recall states that excess epoxy may have gotten into the guts of the Recall triggers causing a problem. I am calling BS, I think there is something else in there that is screwed up which AGAIN is why I started this thread.
 
#25
29, you're taking a beating. It just depends on the company language when you post something. I once took a beating because some idiot test fired a newly installed muzzle brake next to another shooter who was unaware of the test and the brake was not installed right and sent debris on the other shooter. Nobody understood that was a stupid fucking thing to do. Fucking people with their weak ass shoulders and goddamn muzzle brakes :). You don't need something called a trigger gauge. A cheap hand held fish scale or even a three pound rock tied to a string will work. :) If it was me I would always have those unwanted discharges in the back of my mind. You can't put a price on peace of mind. You wouldn't attempt driving yourself and a baby across the country in the middle of summer knowing you have a head gasket leak. Same logic.
 
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#26
Wow what a dog pile... I for one am appreciative of the information you are trying to convey, 29. I always categorized the xmark as less desirable, but now I am aware of at least one crappy way they have actually caused problems.
Thank you for sharing valuable information that is pertinent to my current and future perspective on my lifelong passion.
I'm not exactly sure how you sparked all the backlash... Nothing you have posted seems irresponsible or unsafe to me, but that might be because I believe in my American right to regulate my own actions, and routinely decide what is "safe" for me in my own PRIVATE domain.
If it's any consolation, I have yet to own any firearm, especially any rifle, that I haven't "molested the trigger" on, exactly as you mention. I guess I'm a loose cannon screwball endangering everyone also...
 
#27
Culpeper said:
29, you're taking a beating. It just depends on the company language when you post something. I once took a beating because some idiot test fired a newly installed muzzle brake next to another shooter who was unaware of the test and the brake was not installed right and sent debris on the other shooter. Nobody understood that was a stupid fucking thing to do. Fucking people with their weak ass shoulders and goddamn muzzle brakes :). You don't need something called a trigger gauge. A cheap hand held fish scale or even a three pound rock tied to a string will work. :) If it was me I would always have those unwanted discharges in the back of my mind. You can't put a price on peace of mind. You wouldn't attempt driving yourself and a baby across the country in the middle of summer knowing you have a head gasket leak. Same logic.
Click to expand...

YukonRob said:
Wow what a dog pile... I for one am appreciative of the information you are trying to convey, 29. I always categorized the xmark as less desirable, but now I am aware of at least one crappy way they have actually caused problems.
Thank you for sharing valuable information that is pertinent to my current and future perspective on my lifelong passion.
I'm not exactly sure how you sparked all the backlash... Nothing you have posted seems irresponsible or unsafe to me, but that might be because I believe in my American right to regulate my own actions, and routinely decide what is "safe" for me in my own PRIVATE domain.
If it's any consolation, I have yet to own any firearm, especially any rifle, that I haven't "molested the trigger" on, exactly as you mention. I guess I'm a loose cannon screwball endangering everyone also...
Click to expand...


Thanks guys, I knew I was taking a risk posting this, but I wanted everyone to know there is more to the XMP trigger problems than what Remington may be telling.

You're correct, even if I sent this trigger back I would never trust it again. FWIW I put an old style trigger in the rifle so I can use it in public. I didn't mind using it the way it was in my back yard (private range) but would never take it to a shoot knowing it was an accident waiting to happen.

Like I said in a previous post you all don't know me, and I don't post all that often but when I do for the most part it is to try to be helpful and/or informative. FWIW you can go over to the Smith and Wesson Forum where I have almost 5000 posts (should be over 12000 but we lost post counts due to new software).
 
#28
29 look,

The issue is not about your experience level nor whos fault the trigger malfunctioned. The plain and simple issue is that you had an AD in your rifle. You own every bullet that leaves that muzzle no matter the circumstances. Many folks on here are military/leo hell lineworkers past and present. So there will be no filter if you are putting yourself or others at risk. Sure the site has its amount of trolls and kids, but if you start a thread with unsafe content you will get called out.

The first time your firearm misfired it was an AD, anytime after that fact it becomes a ND, because you had first hand knowledge that it misfired (for any reason) and did not take it to a qualified smith or the manufacturer for repair. Also you came and informed the public that your rifle fired on its own. If another bullet left your muzzle and impacted a person or property you would have no leg to stand on.

I understand the premise behind your post, as you want to inform folks that the trigger issue is real, but in doing so you publicly stated you have an unsafe firearm.

From this point the only way to clear that rifle is having it inspected by a qualified gunsmith. That will not guarantee that the rifle will not ever misfire again, but its about liability. I am not a lawyer, just stating how I would handle things personally.
 
#29
29aholic said:
Ok I should have posted in the original post.
The only "Tuning" I did was to back out the tension screw to try to reduce the weight of the pull. I did NOT take it apart, stone it, etc. I adjusted no other screws.
.
Click to expand...

This adjustment is EXACTLY how to end up with a non-pull discharge with a Remington trigger. You no longer have enough tension on the reset to put the trigger on sear. You backed it out to the ragged edge and the spring wore enough (or the screw backed out more) to be too short for proper reset.
 
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#30
I wish you still had the trigger attached to that rifle. I'd be curious to see the result of some function tests with the barreled/bolted/triggered action out of the stock.
 
#31
29aholic said:
OK what I thought would be a public service announcement has turned into something else. My original intent was to show these triggers are shit regardless of what Remington says.
I mean if you can use a properly (and it was) adjusted trigger for over a year, then all of a sudden this starts happening then it is time to move on to something better.

To clear the air and ease everyone's mind (including my own) I have another factory (old style) trigger I can put in it for now.
Click to expand...

29aholic,

How often/much was the trigger pulled on that rifle between when you adjusted the tension screw and when it started to discharge on its own?

Was the tension screw secured post adjustment?

By the way, I think you did good posting here. It shares with the community the exact circumstance of what can produce this sort of thing.
 
#32
ChrisBCS said:
29aholic,

How often/much was the trigger pulled on that rifle between when you adjusted the tension screw and when it started to discharge on its own?

Was the tension screw secured post adjustment?

By the way, I think you did good posting here. It shares with the community the exact circumstance of what can produce this sort of thing.
Click to expand...

I may put it back in to test it. I am going to take it to a gunsmith (the same one who taught me how to adjust a 700 trigger years ago) and have him look at it.
I still wont trust it.
 
#33
roggom said:
29 look,

The issue is not about your experience level nor whos fault the trigger malfunctioned. The plain and simple issue is that you had an AD in your rifle. You own every bullet that leaves that muzzle no matter the circumstances. Many folks on here are military/leo hell lineworkers past and present. So there will be no filter if you are putting yourself or others at risk. Sure the site has its amount of trolls and kids, but if you start a thread with unsafe content you will get called out.

The first time your firearm misfired it was an AD, anytime after that fact it becomes a ND, because you had first hand knowledge that it misfired (for any reason) and did not take it to a qualified smith or the manufacturer for repair. Also you came and informed the public that your rifle fired on its own. If another bullet left your muzzle and impacted a person or property you would have no leg to stand on.

I understand the premise behind your post, as you want to inform folks that the trigger issue is real, but in doing so you publicly stated you have an unsafe firearm.

From this point the only way to clear that rifle is having it inspected by a qualified gunsmith. That will not guarantee that the rifle will not ever misfire again, but its about liability. I am not a lawyer, just stating how I would handle things personally.
Click to expand...

You know, of all the ones that piled on you make a better point than any of the others. You are right, I should have stopped at the first one. You are correct that the second two were on me. Though none of those sent a round down range. I attribute safe gun handling practices to that (beyond the previously stated). Whether 100% of my shooting takes place in my back yard is irrelevant

Thank you

PS I really don't mind the onslaught especially if it saves someone else grief in the long run.
 
#35
As chrisbcs asked, was the screw secured after you adjusted? Maybe it backed itself out over time. A dab of clear finger nail polish is what I used when adjusting my SPS trigger.

Either way, I agree with the rest of the guys. Put the rifle to the side and get it checked!

One shot, One kill!
 
#36
29, thanks for posting this. I have always believed that all safeties that operate by blocking trigger movement are about worthless. Mauser or Winchester 70 type safeties, which provide a mechanical block to the striker assembly, are considerably more reliable but still not foolproof. Proper gun handling is the only foolproof safety.

That being said, I would guess that at least eighty percent of the people on this site need to send at least some of their firearms back to the manufacturer or to a smith. Why? Because they have adjusted a trigger to their liking and have therefore altered the gun from the state that the manufacturer delivered it, thus ensuring liability on their part. As for you guys that have lightened a trigger to the point that it would discharge on a bump test and then increased the weight/engagement to the point you don't get an AD. Those rifles should be probably melted down so they are no longer a danger to the masses. And since we are protecting the unwashed, we might as well get rid of all the BR and target guns that wouldn't stand a severe bump test.

Additionally, the bump test, as traditionally applied tells as almost nothing. So everyone, please take your rifles out and drop them from three feet onto their muzzles, scopes, trigger guards, etc. This will give us all a reasonable representation of their ability to withstand a drop without discharging. Please remember to use a hard surface such as concrete.

Tomorrow I will address the liability problems inherent in buying firearms from hacks such as Wilson, Gap, Spartan, Nighthawk, Tac Ops, etc.
 
#39
29,

I have learned a several things from this thread:

1. Remington's X-Mark Pro triggers are even worse than I had realized.

2. Even if it were possible to tune one to the desired level of performance, it wouldn't be worth the potential liability.

3. There are several morons on SH who have no idea what proper muzzle dicipline is.

Thank you for the enlightenment.
 
#40
Just to add to 29aholic's experience, I just yesterday received a new Remington 700 in .223. This was shipped to my dealer directly from the factory, and I have been waiting for the rifle since May due to the recall. It has the XMarkPro trigger. Out of the box the trigger weighed in at 5lbs 11oz with a Lyman electronic trigger gauge. Lightest I can get the trigger without it not safely holding the sear is 4lbs 13oz. I would like Remington to tell me again how awesome this trigger is.
 
#42
Deadshot2 said:
Not if he doesn't point it at anyone or anything he doesn't want to shoot. That was the main problem with all the safeties that allowed the rifles to fire when released. The muzzles were pointing at people when this happened.

People rely too much on safeties rather than common sense. Lack of common sense AND a gun is more of a walking time bomb.
Click to expand...

I have to agree with this guy but I do recommend getting a Timney before the possibility of an accidental discharge. Too many people rely on just a safety rather than practicing safe handling of firearms.
 
#43
Roggom, the first paragraph and the first sentence of the third paragraph are factual observations. As you have observed, the balance is satire. Probably 29's observation that, by replacing the trigger, he could return his firearm to a safely usable state is an error in today's litigious culture. The idea that common sense should intrude in such deliberations is no longer to be expected.

The idea that the scenario of thought process I proposed is fallacious is incorrect. As Culpeper noted, this scenario appears in today's courts with regularity.

If the post was a shot at me, than thank you, it means you read my post closely and hopefully the comedy entertained you. In the future you should submit such posts to Graham for approval. He is the Moderator-In-Charge (MIC) for all posts with obscure references. :)
 
#44
My comment is just logic, in that you took the argument to an absurd extreme which makes your point fallacious. Do I hear where you are coming from, yes. Do I understand your point, yes.

The issue is that this is an open forum, one with various experience level of shooter. Do I practice proper muzzle and trigger discipline, yes, Do you, I can almost bet you do. As do many on the hide, but you still see the "fail" videos and stories popping up on the net. Investigative reports, recalls, and "accidental deaths".

If OP is comfortable with the condition and operation of his firearm, so be it. Just know that if that specific firearm is ever involved in loss of property or person, he owns it all. I would hope that it never happens, but shit does.
 
#45
4000fps said:
Those triggers make great decoy weights.
Click to expand...

Seems everyone loves internet ragging on the XMark pro triggers, yet I can consistiantly shoot sub moa all the way out to 600 yards with mine. If I shoot outside moa, it's not the trigger's fault it's me. Me personally don't see a huge difference in high end aftermarket triggers (this statement being based upon my experiences shooting similar aftermarket trigger equipped rifles borrowed from my gun club's members). While i'm a newer precision shooter I highly doubt a $200+ trigger will immediately make me a better shooter, I DO believe continuing to hone the mechanics of precise trigger pull, breathing technique , understanding wind dope , and further enhancing my handloading skills , and lastly using a factory shitty Xmark pro trigger will make me a better shooter. Kinda like they say is the circle track race car world "any driver can go fast in a great car, the best drivers are the ones that go fast in a shitty car" ;)
 
Last edited:
#46
These guys get it.

JRM83 said:
I really don't understand the discussion here. That rifle isn't safe and has no business being used in any fashion whatsoever. Either get the trigger fixed or put that rifle away until it is.

The facts are:

1. You have a rifle that discharges unintentionally
2. You cannot intentionally repeat the circumstances that cause it to discharge unintentionally
3. You do not know what is causing the problem

I don't see how anyone could declare the rifle as okay to use, even in specific conditions, when they can't say with 100% certainty what is going on.
Click to expand...

TimK said:
Not to pile on, but you've also advertised that you know it's unsafe on a public forum. God forbid something goes wrong, your level of legal responsibility is now complete.
Click to expand...

29aholic said:
OK what I thought would be a public service announcement has turned into something else. My original intent was to show these triggers are shit regardless of what Remington says.
I mean if you can use a properly (and it was) adjusted trigger for over a year, then all of a sudden this starts happening then it is time to move on to something better.

To clear the air and ease everyone's mind (including my own) I have another factory (old style) trigger I can put in it for now.
Click to expand...

So your solution is put in another potential bad trigger? Seems legit. If you don't have the money put it away or send it back for free repair.
 
#47
OK here is what the gunsmith and I found. We looked over the trigger with a fine tooth comb. There appeared to be the remains of some of that epoxy cited in the recall left in the trigger. The gunsmith believes there was more in it to begin with when I adjusted the trigger over a year ago making the adjustment seem heavier than what it was. By all my dry firing and shooting it was slowly wearing away and becoming slightly lighter over time depending on where the shit was "floating" at the time. We tested the trigger before we cleaned it and verified this by the fact that it would not pull at a consistent weight through 10 cycles anywhere from just under 3lbs to barely over 2lbs a difference you could only tell with a scale. When we got the trigger group thoroughly cleaned out (solvent and an ultrasound) and tested it again is was barely over 1.75lbs, way to light for an XM trigger. All of this was done without touching the tension screw. We then adjusted the screw back in to 3.5lbs and tested it 10 or so more times. The pull stayed consistent at the 3.5lb mark. He said anything below 3-3.25lbs the XM trigger would not stay consistent, which I verified with another gunsmith. We chose 3.5 to allow for wear, etc. We applied fingernail polish to all the screws to prevent them moving. Both he and the gunsmith I got the 2nd opinion from believe the rifle is now safe to use.

Will I replace the trigger? Yes I will.
Will I trust this trigger until that time? We'll see. I plan to continue my dry firing regimen and shooting in my backyard for a while over the next few weeks and plan to take it back to my smith regularly through the process and have the trigger check several times. If we do not see any degradation then I guess I will trust it as much as I do any mechanical device.

As I previously posted, I knew what I was in store for when I began this thread but I felt it needed to be put out there so others can learn from my mistakes. Last I checked there has been over 2000 views on this thread. If just one person saves themselves from a horrendous mishap then the beating I have taken was well worth it.

Remember, there is no substitution for safe gun handling practices.
 
Last edited:
#50
29aholic said:
OK here is what the gunsmith and I found. We looked over the trigger with a fine tooth comb. There appeared to be the remains of some of that epoxy cited in the recall left in the trigger. The gunsmith believes there was more in it to begin with when I adjusted the trigger over a year ago making the adjustment seem heavier than what it was. By all my dry firing and shooting it was slowly wearing away and becoming slightly lighter over time depending on where the shit was "floating" at the time. We tested the trigger before we cleaned it and verified this by the fact that it would not pull at a consistent weight through 10 cycles anywhere from just under 3lbs to barely over 2lbs a difference you could only tell with a scale. When we got the trigger group thoroughly cleaned out (solvent and an ultrasound) and tested it again is was barely over 1.75lbs, way to light for an XM trigger. All of this was done without touching the tension screw. We then adjusted the screw back in to 3.5lbs and tested it 10 or so more times. The pull stayed consistent at the 3.5lb mark. He said anything below 3-3.25lbs the XM trigger would not stay consistent, which I verified with another gunsmith. We chose 3.5 to allow for wear, etc. We applied fingernail polish to all the screws to prevent them moving. Both he and the gunsmith I got the 2nd opinion from believe the rifle is now safe to use.

Will I replace the trigger? Yes I will.
Will I trust this trigger until that time? We'll see. I plan to continue my dry firing regimen and shooting in my backyard for a while over the next few weeks and plan to take it back to my smith regularly through the process and have the trigger check several times. If we do not see any degradation then I guess I will trust it as much as I do any mechanical device.

As I previously posted, I knew what I was in store for when I began this thread but I felt it needed to be put out there so others can learn from my mistakes. Last I checked there has been over 2000 views on this thread. If just one person saves themselves from a horrendous mishap then the beating I have taken was well worth it.

Remember, there is no substitution for safe gun handling practices.
Click to expand...
You did the right thing.

Glad you figured it out.

Posted Via Glade Plug In.
 
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